Do traffic levels justify the new motorways?

L1011

JHMEG wrote: »

The nice thing about 2+1's is they deliver a lot of the benefits of a DC but at 0.5% the cost, as it's only repainting an existing road.

To 2+2 an existing road requires repaiting, median barrier etc, so delivers very little more than a 2+1 at much greater cost.

A 2+1 requires a median barrier! You appear to assume a passing lane is a 2+1. Its not.

2+1s, and swapping passing lanes, are a fatally flawed idea and the NRA realised this.

*2+1s cause extreme driver fustration and do not provide enough passing opportunities to actually increase road capacity. They lead to bunching through the 1 sections.

*Swapping passing lanes cause higher speed traffic, and people overtaking in to oncoming overtaking traffic, with no protective barrier. You go from having lots of headons to lots of headons where the terminal velocity is >250km/h.

The NRA trialled 2+1s on 4 sections of road with very different usage patterns. They were an abject failure everywhere. 2+2 costs very little more, and thats why its now the basic standard. The kind of roads where 2+1s work have such low traffic we'd be having threads on here criticising them!

corktina

malcox wrote: »

Them 2+1 are the greatest wanxxxx of things build a proper dc or motorway first day. the amount of road rage you see on the mallow cork one is unreal. when you get on the two bit everyone accelerates and you end up passing nothing,you go back on the one bit and you are doing 60 kph or stuck behind a tractor, which in fairness always keep in as far as they can but some clown in front is afraid to pass. forget them do it right or dont do it at all.

everyone eaccelerates INCLUDING the slow guy often..I accept that it has saved lives on that previously sub standard section but at the cost of holding up the traffic flow. AND heading south at the end of it you run into a 60 limit with just two tiny signs. The Gards have a field day there!

corktina

MYOB wrote: »

A 2+1 requires a median barrier! You appear to assume a passing lane is a 2+1. Its not.

2+1s, and swapping passing lanes, are a fatally flawed idea and the NRA realised this.

*2+1s cause extreme driver fustration and do not provide enough passing opportunities to actually increase road capacity. They lead to bunching through the 1 sections.

*Swapping passing lanes cause higher speed traffic, and people overtaking in to oncoming overtaking traffic, with no protective barrier. You go from having lots of headons to lots of headons where the terminal velocity is >250km/h.

The NRA trialled 2+1s on 4 sections of road with very different usage patterns. They were an abject failure everywhere. 2+2 costs very little more, and thats why its now the basic standard. The kind of roads where 2+1s work have such low traffic we'd be having threads on here criticising them!

thank you...

axer

corktina wrote: »

there are only TWO sections on the N20....

slow lanes are NOT most definately NOT just fior HGVs >I think you may be part of the problem if you think that! You should yse the left most available lane, and that means the slow lane especially when there are others behind you wishing to pass.

Most the of the problem is when people use the phrase "slow" lane. People have this stupid idea in their head that if they are going "fast" then they can go in the right hand lane. People need to start using the phrases such as left lane and overtaking lane.

JHMEG

MYOB wrote: »

A 2+1 requires a median barrier! You appear to assume a passing lane is a 2+1. Its not.

I have never seen a 2+1 then, as my only extensive experience is the N25 between Waterford and Dungarvan where the "passing lane" works very well (there are several, even on bends), has been there for over 10 years and doesn't seem to cause frustration you mention?

Tragedy

corktina wrote: »

there are only TWO sections on the N20....

slow lanes are NOT most definately NOT just fior HGVs >I think you may be part of the problem if you think that! You should yse the left most available lane, and that means the slow lane especially when there are others behind you wishing to pass.

I've only seen one "slow lane", and it's a climbing lane(uphill on a section of the N7)traffic is directed into the right hand lane, with the climbing lane being on the left.

It also is for HGV's.

MYOB wrote: »

A 2+1 requires a median barrier! You appear to assume a passing lane is a 2+1. Its not.

2+1s, and swapping passing lanes, are a fatally flawed idea and the NRA realised this.

*2+1s cause extreme driver fustration and do not provide enough passing opportunities to actually increase road capacity. They lead to bunching through the 1 sections.

*Swapping passing lanes cause higher speed traffic, and people overtaking in to oncoming overtaking traffic, with no protective barrier. You go from having lots of headons to lots of headons where the terminal velocity is >250km/h.

The NRA trialled 2+1s on 4 sections of road with very different usage patterns. They were an abject failure everywhere. 2+2 costs very little more, and thats why its now the basic standard. The kind of roads where 2+1s work have such low traffic we'd be having threads on here criticising them!

The NRA didn't trial 2+1 roads, it trialled 2+1 sections.

It's like trialling 1km of motorway in between 1+1 sections, and calling it an abject failure.
Which it would be.

L1011

JHMEG wrote: »

I have never seen a 2+1 then, as my only extensive experience is the N25 between Waterford and Dungarvan where the "passing lane" works very well, has been there for over 10 years and doesn't seem to cause frustration you mention?

The actual 2+1s in Ireland are:

N20 Cork-Mallow (part of)
N2 Castleblayney Clontibret Bypass
N24 Cahir Bypass
N24 Piltown-Fiddown Bypass

The N20 and N2 schemes suffer from extreme bunching and road rage. The Piltown-Fiddown scheme is EXTREMELY dangerous and has more deaths since opening than the old road it has bypassed:
http://www.kilkennypeople.ie/piltown/PiltownFiddown-Bypass--The-Facts.1628585.jp

Kilkenny CoCo want to rip it out and put a bog-standard WS2 in its place.

Passing lanes are extremely dangerous, far more so than 2+1, for a number of reasons. Firstly, unless explicity marked as not, oncoming traffic can overtake in the middle lane - leading to extremely high speed head-on collisions. There are also often collisions at the re-merge points where the lanes end. Where the "fast" outer lane keeps priority, traffic which has pulled in to the "slow" driving lane can be forced to stop. Then you have the standard risks of single carriageway roads - crossover accidents, headons, etc, etc.

Passing lanes are too dangerous to consider on high traffic roads - this is why the N25 is covered in them but the N7 has two ancient ones and no more. 2+1s cost money and are barely any safer. 2+2s cost a fraction more and are significantly safer.

corktina

you are not "directed"into the right hand lane, you have your own free will and the regulations say you should use the leftmost available lane. Ive yet to see a sign saying "HGVs only" on any "slow" lane (call it what you will, the regulations say you should use it if it is available)

L1011

Tragedy wrote: »

The NRA didn't trial 2+1 roads, it trialled 2+1 sections.

It's like trialling 1km of motorway in between 1+1 sections, and calling it an abject failure.
Which it would be.

The N20 scheme is a 'section'.

The N2 one is 16km in length and features IIRC 7 swapovers. Its more than long enough to see that they just do not work with anything more than negligable traffic. Even with negligable traffic they're not safe.

Tragedy

corktina wrote: »

you are not "directed"into the right hand lane, you have your own free will and the regulations say you should use the leftmost available lane. Ive yet to see a sign saying "HGVs only" on any "slow" lane (call it what you will, the regulations say you should use it if it is available)

Yes you are, I suppose lane and road markings dont exist in your world?

Road markings direct you into the right hand lane, like as if the HGV lane is a bus lane.

L1011

Much as it pains me to agree, that antiquated passing lane on the N7 does actually tell slow traffic to use it and "normal" traffic to stay to the right. It dates from the 1950s or so, thats why.

I've never seen another one in the country marked/signed as stupidly; and I've driven about 90% of the entire national route network...

corktina

Tragedy wrote: »

Yes you are, I suppose lane and road markings dont exist in your world?

Road markings direct you into the right hand lane, like as if the HGV lane is a bus lane.

does it say HGVs only on the inner lane then? I have travelled that road many a time and I didnt see such signs. Does it say " dont move into the left lane if someone is wanting to pass you unless you are driving a truck"? No of course not,

JHMEG

MYOB wrote: »

The actual 2+1s in Ireland are:

Ok well I've obviously never seen one, and meant the N25 type layout, which works well on the N25 and no doubt would work well elsewhere. Also, on that road where 3 lanes are in place there is always a solid white line.

L1011

JHMEG wrote: »

Ok well I've obviously never seen one, and meant the N25 type layout, which works well on the N25 and no doubt would work well elsewhere. Also, on that road where 3 lanes are in place there is always a solid white line.

This is absolutely not true, as I used part of it today (New Ross to Waterford) where there is no solid white line and I also know the Youghal Bypass is marked as a three lane free-for-all (nominally two lanes uphill/East).

There is generally a solid/broken combo to prevent traffic in the two lane side using the third lane to overtake. There is nothing to prevent that on the one lane side doing so. Found a section on Google Maps where the imagery makes this more obvious than most:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=new+ross&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=7.97093,28.256836&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=New+Ross,+County+Wexford,+Ireland&ll=52.326413,-7.055309&spn=0.001007,0.003449&t=k&z=18

JHMEG

MYOB wrote: »

This is absolutely not true, as I used part of it today (New Ross to Waterford)

By N25 I mean this:

JHMEG wrote:

my only extensive experience is the N25 between Waterford and Dungarvan

L1011

The N25 is a hell of a lot longer than that though!

I've driven the entire length of it, and pretty much every N road in the country. It has the highest deployment of passing lanes of any road for whatever reason.

JHMEG

Over the years I've driven the length of it aswell, it just doesn't stick in my head tho.

If you thought the N25 was long, have a look at the E30, of which it is part.

-Corkie-

I think we are goin beyond the thread title, how about setting up a 2+1 thread.

L1011

Would be rather pointless, as they're never getting built in Ireland ever again.

Steviemak

MYOB wrote: »

Would be rather pointless, as they're never getting built in Ireland ever again.

Hopefully. The Castleblaney bypass is slower and more dangerous than the Carrickmacross S2 bypass.

Victor

axer wrote: »

Not true as a huge amount of people in Germany commute to work even for short distances < 2 hours which is well comparable.

Believe it or not there are a number of freight runs every day on the Galway to Dublin line.
http://www.iarnrodeireann.ie/our_services/IE_freight.asp

That is their defunct website.

Victor

Tragedy wrote: »

Slow lanes are to the best of my knowledge, only on upwards inclines

Yes.

and for HGV's.

Generally, but not exclusively. The rule is "keep left unless overtaking"

Do you even drive a car on motorways or D/Cs? I see people sitting in the overtaking lane when there are no other cars near them regularly on the M50 and M7.

It just proves that idiots get about..

L1011

Steviemak wrote: »

Hopefully. The Castleblaney bypass is slower and more dangerous than the Carrickmacross S2 bypass.

No 'hopefully' about it, the NRA declared it defunct. They even got the 2+1 that was under construction at the time - Dromod Roosky Bypass - changed to a 2+2. The Castleisland bypass is being built as 2+2, as is the tail-out from the M3 to the Cavan border; and all new "small" bypasses are going to be 2+2.

Redsoxfan

Steviemak wrote: »

Hopefully. The Castleblaney bypass is slower and more dangerous than the Carrickmacross S2 bypass.

Eh? I'm no great fan of 2+1, but the Castleblayney bypass is 'better' than the Carrickmacross bypass-where safe opportunites to overtake are rare enough in my experience.

Typewriter

2+1

Maaa!

After a brutal 4 hour slog to Shannon from Dublin last week, I say yes to motorways! I arrive with my nerves frazzled. Countries population will grow over next 30 years and will fill the roads over time. The network needs to be put in place now. UK did not have numbers using the motorways when they built them first. A lot safer than poxy back roads anyway especially when you take account of the brainless Irish motorists!
(Probably one myself!!)

munchkin_utd

Maaa! wrote: »

After a brutal 4 hour slog to Shannon from Dublin last week, I say yes to motorways! I arrive with my nerves frazzled. Countries population will grow over next 30 years and will fill the roads over time. The network needs to be put in place now. UK did not have numbers using the motorways when they built them first. A lot safer than poxy back roads anyway especially when you take account of the brainless Irish motorists!
(Probably one myself!!)

Irish drivers are not unknown to be dangerous on motorways too.

That will all continue until we have a nice big pileup on one of the more busy sections with multiple fatalities, when action will maybe be taken like the guards inforcing the law (more than just pettily cracking down on speeding at 1kmh over the limit) and maybe proper driver training/ compulsorary lessions on motorways.
Not that Ireland with approaching the highest amount of motorway per capita should have learners learn how to use a motorway or anything before they get their licence.

Maaa!

Hear, hear, well spoken Bruce.

popebenny16

on the n7 there are regular slow movements due to volumes as far as the Newbridge interchange and also another to the N9 junction. apart from that you may get heavy enough volumes towards Kildare but thats about it till Cork (on the motorway that is).

on some stretches it can be empty but it is still better than what we had in terms of safety and speed. i can remember the lunacy that started outside kildare and monasterevin in the old days heading south, not to mention the crazy over taking at the end of the old portlaoise bypass heading to dublin

mysterious

Tragedy wrote: »

Why did we never really do anything with 2+1?
On the sections I've driven(Tralee > Killarney > Cork) they're excellent, and the tiny section outside limerick on the N7 is a lifesaver coming up to Dublin.

I know there were huge tracts of the N7 that could have been upgraded to 2+1 with no impact to houses/business.

Well the Nenagh to Limerick Motorway was always on the agenda long before the actual interurbans. The Nenagh to Limerick road is a fairly good standard "now" S2 road, but its nowhere near WS2. The road is very twisty and narrow in some places. There is also 3/4 black accident spots. The traffic level is already 17,000 a day and close to 22,000 at Castleconnnel. So It was necessary in my view to upgrade to Motorway standard.

The Motorway at Portlaoise is already built. The Castletown scheme went ahead under the Limerck/CoR/Galway interurban project in 1999. So that was the reason it all went ahead together. I was in favour of upgrading the existing road, but it would cost a lot more, since the N7 through Tipperary is atrocious and passes through Roscrea, Toomevara, Dunkerrin, Monegall, Borris in Ossary and Mountrath. There is alot of houses built alongside from Borris to Mountrath on either side. The road at Portloaise to Mountrath is a bohereen that can barely fit two H.G.Vs.

I honestly hold the view that Limerick and Cork should automatically get motorways. With and upgraded N77 from Klikenny to the M8. and then allow the Waterford N9 to be used for the N9 with upgraded sections of N9.

I would of built a DC from Kinnegad to Atlone, but WS2/ 2+2 the rest of the way. The existing Oranmore bypass upgraded to motorway.

I would have the "M20" built towards Mitchlestown. with a 2+2 spur built to the M8 west to link up with the N24.

I would not have a motorway running through meath. I would have the N2 upgraded as a commuter DC.


DC bypasses
Waterford it's bypass.
Upgraded Galway bypass
Adare bypass
Castledermot bypass
Edgeworrtown bypass
Gprt bypass

-Corkie-

Wouldnt it be great just to lift the old n8 (cahir straight) and move it on to the mallow to mitchelstown road. I dont know what sort of a vehicle you would want to travel that road shortly. Maybe its time time to invest in an old army tank.....:):)

corktina

the mallow to mitchelstown road is truly THE worst stretch of N road in the State.Now that the sugar factory is gone there is little chance of anything being done with this road, one of a number of fairly busy cross country links that are being ignored.Add to that CCCs woeful road maintence record and it will soon be barely passable.