Source for WW2 radio project?

FewFew

Hi,
I'm a final year journalism student and need some advice on sources for a radio documentary on German POWs kept in Ireland from the 1st and 2nd World Wars. One of my major sources has fallen through and deadlines are approaching. I've made contact with some good sources on the two wars, but nobody seems to have any real knowledge about the few POWs who were kept in Ireland.
Normally I could put in the usual groundwork and find a suitable replacement, but as I'm now off schedule I'd really appreciate some recommendations.
Perhaps a history lecturer who's a good talker or perhaps you know of an author who covers this type of area.
Any advice would be great.

Dummy

It might be an idea contacting the Defence Forces in the Curragh (press office perhaps). I see that they have generated a small piece on their Training Centre website - http://kildare.ie/defenceforces/history.HTM

I do know that German POW's were allowed to continue their 3rd level studies here. My Dad had a German POW in his class for lectures & practicals in Earlsfort Terrace (UCD as it was then) during the war years.

Good luck with your search.

FewFew

Thanks for the advice, I didn't even think of contacting the defence forces, talk about missing the obvious

Dummy

Also, there is a book available, but I cannot remember its name - something like "Irelands Secrets". I have a copy of it at home but I will not be at home until Friday night. I'll post with name then.

But this book gave very detail about German POW's in Ireland during the war.

I'll post the name of the book up for you on Friday night (it will be late).


Good Luck.

D

Morlar

Dummy wrote: »

Also, there is a book available, but I cannot remember its name - something like "Irelands Secrets". I have a copy of it at home but I will not be at home until Friday night. I'll post with name then.

But this book gave very detail about German POW's in Ireland during the war.

I'll post the name of the book up for you on Friday night (it will be late).


Good Luck.

D

Do you mean 'Irish secrets' by mark M Hull ? Excellent book but not sure if that would be the best bet for this kind of project.

InTheTrees

Interesting. Would they have been classified as "Prisoners of War"?

Dummy

Morlar wrote: »

Do you mean 'Irish secrets' by mark M Hull ? Excellent book but not sure if that would be the best bet for this kind of project.

That's the book. Thank you Morlar.

I'll give it another read at the weekend. But maybe I am mixing it up with another book.

Dummy

InTheTrees wrote: »

Interesting. Would they have been classified as "Prisoners of War"?

I think they were, and are, referred to as "Internees".

ejmaztec

InTheTrees wrote: »

Interesting. Would they have been classified as "Prisoners of War"?

Yes, I think "Internees" is the word that should have been used. Beaten by a dummy!
:P
One of my late (unfortunately) uncles was a sergeant up in the Curragh, who was "looking after" some of them. One of his favourite yarns was that he would escort both allied and Germans to a pub, and that there didn't seem to be much animosity between them. He thought that they were glad to be out of it.

I don't know whether all of the allied internees were sent to the North, or whether some of them decided that they would prefer the Curragh, or whatever other place they were locked up in.

FewFew

Dummy wrote: »

I think they were, and are, referred to as "Internees".

Yup, they're internees alright, but I've gotten so used to trying to explain exactly what the project is about that I've started saying POWs since people tend to know what they are, but don't worry, it won't be used in the project... no historical inaccuracies planned

convert

You could try the following lecturers in UCD who focus on German and Modern European History:

http://www.ucd.ie/history/staff/gerwarth2.htm

http://www.ucd.ie/history/staff/laffan2.htm

http://www.ucd.ie/history/staff/mulligan.htm

CDfm

Towards the end of WWII owing to money issues mnany pows were sent to work on farms

it may be that some of the farming organisations or macra na feirme have records of this

ejmaztec

CDfm wrote: »

Towards the end of WWII owing to money issues mnany pows were sent to work on farms

it may be that some of the farming organisations or macra na feirme have records of this

Not having a high opinion of farmers, I'd imagine that some of the internees are still locked up in various barns around the country.:eek:

CDfm

ejmaztec wrote: »

Not having a high opinion of farmers, I'd imagine that some of the internees are still locked up in various barns around the country.:eek:

Well the "Emergency "was declared in 1939 until 1976 -so you may be right there.

I read somewhere about British and German aviators being held in Baldonnell. The Germans were about to sit down to lunch on the day the war ended but the Air Corps decided that it would be a good idea to party with the Brits instead -so the Germans went hungry.

So checking with the Air Corps may not be a bad idea.

FiSe

CDfm wrote: »

Well the "Emergency "was declared in 1939 until 1976 -so you may be right there.

I read somewhere about British and German aviators being held in Baldonnell. The Germans were about to sit down to lunch on the day the war ended but the Air Corps decided that it would be a good idea to party with the Brits instead -so the Germans went hungry.

So checking with the Air Corps may not be a bad idea.

I'd be very surprised if that's true, Urban myth more likely, from few reasons

a/ at the end of the war there was no allied internee in Ireland. I think that the last allied 'POW' was sent home in 1942-3 /?/ Too lazy to look for it.

b/ Baldonnel wasn't used as a prison or detention centre for belligerent sides of the European conflict

c/ IAC didn't look after the internees, but they were responsible for dismantling - disposal of the a/c wrecks

What could have been at the birth of this myth is landing of German heavy fighter /Ju-88G 6c/ in Gormanston just before the war's end and following visit from the RAF, who's personnel flew that aircraft over to the UK

CDfm

I haven't said they were internees as such and have no idea what they were just that they were foreign servicemen. .

I had a relative who was involved in the salvage of aircraft for parts and salvage and crews did crash land often intentionally in Ireland which is what he believed.

They also needed to be friendly with the crews to make the aircraft and munitions safe.My understanding is that they had a German and British crew in at around the same time.

I have no doubt the story was embellished a bit.

CDfm

You might check with the group below as they may give you some local info on the Curragh Prisoner of War Camp.

You might do a search on Cathal O'Shannon a retired RTE journalist who was in the RAF and did a lot or research on the time. You could even contact RTE to check sourses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathal_O'Shannon_(TV_presenter)

Naas Local History Group



Meetings:1st. Monday of the month
(From October to April)Location: Naas Library at 7.45 p.m.
(by Kind Permission of Kildare County Library)
Details in:Leinster Leader
Kildare Nationalist
Naas Parish NewsletterContact:Brendan Cullen, 5 College Road, Clane. Ph: 045 861159



Here is a link to an online review of books from the period

http://stonebooks.com/archives/000511.shtml

SlabMurphy

CDfm wrote: »

I read somewhere about British and German aviators being held in Baldonnell. The Germans were about to sit down to lunch on the day the war ended but the Air Corps decided that it would be a good idea to party with the Brits instead -so the Germans went hungry.

CDfm wrote: »

I haven't said they were internees as such and have no idea what they were just that they were foreign servicemen. .

I had a relative who was involved in the salvage of aircraft for parts and salvage and crews did crash land often intentionally in Ireland which is what he believed.

They also needed to be friendly with the crews to make the aircraft and munitions safe.My understanding is that they had a German and British crew in at around the same time.

I have no doubt the story was embellished a bit.

Well if you no doubt the story was embellished, then why post it :rolleyes:
Could you try posting your fantasy tales and total Walter Mitty history somewhere else please.

CDfm

SlabMurphy wrote: »

Well if you no doubt the story was embellished, then why post it :rolleyes:
Could you try posting your fantasy tales and total Walter Mitty history somewhere else please.

Actually slab the whole issue of the air corps and military aircraft during WWII is facinating.

The Irish Air Corp were very well equiped after the war on the basis of salvage.

I was just relating what I was told and have no reason to believe the story was not factual.As the guy died in 1998 I am not able to check the details,

R.Dub.Fusilier

FiSe wrote: »

What could have been at the birth of this myth is landing of German heavy fighter /Ju-88G 6c/ in Gormanston just before the war's end and following visit from the RAF, who's personnel flew that aircraft over to the UK

if i remember rightly the british demanded that this plane ,i think it was a night fighter, be handed over to them and it was painted with british markings and flown to england.

a brilliant book on the subject is "Landfall Ireland-The Story Of Allied And German Aircraft Which Came Down In Eire In World War 2" by Donal MacCarron . the long title is what its about .i got this a few years ago and it has scores of photos of crashed planes "POWs" Irish Air Corps etc. good book . not sure if it can still be gotten in the shops.

ejmaztec

CDfm wrote: »

Actually slab the whole issue of the air corps and military aircraft during WWII is facinating.

The Irish Air Corp were very well equiped after the war on the basis of salvage.

I was just relating what I was told and have no reason to believe the story was not factual.As the guy died in 1998 I am not able to check the details,

Perhaps they were at Baldonnell waiting to be flown out when the war ended?

FiSe

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

if i remember rightly the british demanded that this plane ,i think it was a night fighter, be handed over to them and it was painted with british markings and flown to england.

a brilliant book on the subject is "Landfall Ireland-The Story Of Allied And German Aircraft Which Came Down In Eire In World War 2" by Donal MacCarron . the long title is what its about .i got this a few years ago and it has scores of photos of crashed planes "POWs" Irish Air Corps etc. good book . not sure if it can still be gotten in the shops.

Yes it was, now... the British crew hasn't arrived till 1st June, another RAF aircraft landing in Ireland before the end of WWII was on 5th and 7th of April and another one on May 21st, but it doesn't matter, the point is, they could not have been in Baldonnel to celebrate the VE day.
And as the RAF was pretty familiar with German aircraft, including Ju-88 G6 variant, they didn't, necessary, need the German crew to be present while taking her off to the UK. But, true, they were briefed on the aircraft by the LW pilot.
What I'm trying to say, without trying to be smarty-panty, is, that not every story told really did happen...

The mentioned book is just OK. A lot of 'storytelling' going on in there, so one must be careful to crosscheck references, but it's a good introduction into the matter.

The Air Corps got almost nothing from the WWII crashes as most of the German aircraft were destroyed by their crews /one intact Ju-88 was burned down by IAC themselves as they didn't have the equipment for recovery/ and almost every useful part from crash landed allied aircraft was sent over to the North and the rest was scrapped.
If the IAC would do the same thing like the Swiss AF, we'd have a few B-17s, B-24s, Catalinas, Swordfish, a couple of LIghtnings and Pipers and so on...
All what IAC got out of it at the end was obsolete Fairey Battle and Miles Master I, I don't think that she ever fleew in IAC colours and 3 Hurricanes.
Well equipped, definitely not.
But that's whole theme for another thread.

johnny_doyle2

possibly source of info?

http://www.tcd.ie/warstudies/kramer.php


in WW1 there were POWs in Newtownards, Glencree, Templemore and Oldcastle. There was supposedly an inspection by US embassy personnel of POWs across the UK and Ireland in 1916. A copy of their report may be with the Imperial War Museum in London.

The following Garda Gazette and website has a picture of some Germans POWs in Richmond Barracks :

http://www.esatclear.ie/~garda/garda_gazette_nov_08.pdf

http://www.historyireland.com/volumes/volume16/issue3/features/?id=114232

Is this the book from earlier answers?

http://www.mii.connect.ie/books/wardead.html


Would be interested to know what happened to the 20 German sailors who became POWs with the scuttling of the Aud in 1916.

FewFew

Thanks for the links, now I just have to chase these up.

I'll post up a link to the finished documentary when it's done anyhows.

arnhem44

Would be interested to know what happened to the 20 German sailors who became POWs with the scuttling of the Aud in 1916.

The crew were taken to a POW camp in England and spent the next two years there however Spindler,another German naval officer and an Austrian army officer all escaped from the camp in Derby and were recaptured near Nottingham

arnhem44

Heres a couple of links you may find interesting,the aviation history of the defence forces in Ireland and a site that lists all the aircraft that landed or crashed in and around Ireland including crew names and some details

http://www.military.ie/aircorps/history/index.htm

http://www.csn.ul.ie/~dan/war/crashes.htm

CDfm

Didnt you also have IRA prisoners interned in the Curragh during WWII did they fraternise with the POWs

arnhem44

Here's some info on POW's in Templemore during WW1,there was also another camp in Belfast and Newtownards

http://www.historyireland.com/volumes/volume16/issue3/features/?id=114232

arnhem44

CDfm wrote: »

Didnt you also have IRA prisoners interned in the Curragh during WWII did they fraternise with the POWs

Here's a little bit also off the Aircraft landings site

There is much interest in one element of Ireland's neutrality in the Second World War. As a neutral state, Ireland was bound by the terms of the Hague Convention to intern combatants finding themselves on its shores. This included naval crew members and airmen. There was much less chance of combatant ground forces finding themselves in Ireland outside of planed military action! The close presence of Britain and the shared border meant that this was a problem top most in Eamonn DeValeras mind at the start of the war. Indeed, in the very hours of September 3rd 1939, two RAF flying boats were too be found landed off the Dublin city coast. The first internment occurred on August 20th, 1940, when a Focke Wulf Fw200 Condor patrol bomber of the Luftwaffe crashed on Mount Brandon, Co. Kerry. The six man crew were at first held in Collins barracks in Cork, before on August 31st, they were transferred to a newly built camp in the Curragh Military Camp, Kildare.

The Camp, No. 2 Internment Camp, better known as 'K Lines' was situated within the Curragh military camp. It was built not far from the No. 1 Internment Camp, or Tintown, where IRA members were interned for the duration of the war. both camps were under the command of Commandant James Guiney of the Irish Army, however, being preoccupied with the Tintown camp, K Lines was run day to day by Lt. James A Kelly. Kelly could speak fluent German but had no experience of running an internemnet camp but learned as he went along! The Guards at the Camps were members of the Armies Military Police Service.