Republican prisoners

Exile 1798

Victor wrote: »

Are you saying the War of Independnce wasn't a popular cause?Stop moving the goal posts.

It was a worthy cause that did receive enough support the sustain itself in an effective manner.

It's similarity to the war fought by the Republican movement in The North made many people uncomfortable therefore the need to overstate it's popularity.

moonpurple

these two lads who were building pipe bombs, they had six inch nails to make these items especially destructive, those six inch nails did not stop a state employed school principle saying that one of these lads was a 'grand fella'

FTA69

Victor wrote: »

Are you saying the War of Independnce wasn't a popular cause?

Popularity and democratic mandate were rarely high up on the list of the IRA's priorities at the time, the likes of the 1916 Rising was done arbitrarily on the basis that any Irish person had the right to resist the occupation of Ireland; the Tan War was a continuation of that.

Stop moving the goal posts.

I'm not, and you're simply embarrassing yourself with the assertion that the likes of Ernie O'Malley or Liam Lynch could have drawn on twenty thousand men from West Cork alone. As Exile and myself have pointed out, there wasn't anywhere close to twenty thousand volunteers throughout the entire country.

And remember that perhaps 250,000 men had military experience (albeit of trench warfare) in the era.

How does the fact that loads of people joined the British Army at the time equate with the Tan War having a democratic mandate or the IRA having 20,000 men in West Cork? You're making no sense with that point.

Victor

FTA69 wrote: »

Popularity and democratic mandate were rarely high up on the list of the IRA's priorities at the time,

Then why did they run for election and get most seats?

the likes of the 1916 Rising was done arbitrarily on the basis that any Irish person had the right to resist the occupation of Ireland;

Slightly irrelevant, as it occurred 3 years earlier. I'd almost accuse you of shifting goal posts again.

the Tan War was a continuation of that.

I think you'll find that public opinion had changed quite a bit in the interim.

I'm not, and you're simply embarrassing yourself with the assertion that the likes of Ernie O'Malley or Liam Lynch could have drawn on twenty thousand men from West Cork alone.

There would have been a slight problem of a lack of ammunition. I'm sayin there wre people there. I'm not saying they were all militarily useful or capable of being used.

How does the fact that loads of people joined the British Army at the time equate with the Tan War having a democratic mandate or the IRA having 20,000 men in West Cork?

Did I day they equated? I was merely pointing out that a large number had experience.

FTA69

Then why did they run for election and get most seats?

They didn't. Sinn Féin did, at the time the IRA was only answerable to itself and had little to do with either Sinn Féin or the Dáil.

Slightly irrelevant, as it occurred 3 years earlier. I'd almost accuse you of shifting goal posts again.

I'd almost accuse you of deliberately ignoring history in order to convince yourself that those who participated in the Tan War were noble democrats while those who joined the Provisional IRA were simply blood thirst terrorists with no mandate.

The fact of the matter is that the likes of De Valera, Collins, Mulcahy, Mellows, Lynch, O'Malley, Breen etc were all involved in subversive activity long before the 1918 elections; and were wholly unconcerned about mandates etc. They viewed the Tan War as simply the resumption of the hostilities started by the 1916 Rising.

To say the 1916 Rising is "slightly irrelevant" when discussing the Tan War shows a remarkably poor grasp of historical understanding on your part.

There would have been a slight problem of a lack of ammunition. I'm sayin there wre people there. I'm not saying they were all militarily useful or capable of being used.

A cursory glance at wiki shows your assertion to be crap.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_war_of_independence#IRA_organisation_and_operations

To follow your logic the Provisionals would have also been a massive organisation considering thousands of them went to jail throughout the conflict, and they were only the ones who were caught; not to mention the massive amount of people who were in the organisation throughout its history.

moonpurple

was voted on by the majority of people throughout the 32 counties, it states that violence is No Longer a part of political process in any part of the entire island of Ireland, the majority of people on the island want no more people loosing a leg as one unfortunate man did in the past few weeks, the majority want history to stay where it belongs, in the past, move on my brother.. we are all europeans now..you me and peter robinson all in it together:)

FTA69

we are all europeans now..you me and peter robinson all in it together

Somehow I don't think we're all living in the "post-nationalist" world John Hume would like us to be.

Liam Byrne

FTA69 wrote: »

Somehow I don't think we're all living in the "post-nationalist" world John Hume would like us to be.

Thankfully, we're also not living (or for that matter, not dead) in the "blinkered nationalist" world that some extremists would like to impose over and above the democratically-decided GFA, either.

Stabshauptmann

Victor wrote: »

Oh really? There was 20,000 volunteers in West Cork alone in the War of Independence. I suspect thats a lot more popular than the IRA during the troubles.

This is the point I was trying to make; these are the kinds of widely held, completely erroneous beliefs, being peddled regarding the war of independence.

There were not 20k volunteers in West Cork?! FFS, going on those kinds of numbers its a wonder we didnt invade and conquer England :rolleyes:

Before the war of independence there were 100k-120k members of the Irish Volunteers, perhaps this is where you are getting confused. But the Irish Volunteers did not translate seamlessly into the IRA. The IRB usurped control of the Volunteers. The IRA was certainly not under the control of the Dail and it was endorsed as the army of the republic by the Dail retroactively.

*The popular mandate achieved by SF in the 1918 elections did not include a call to arms.
*The Dail was not in control of the IRA. The Dail endorsed it, and there was some political back and forth, but the Dail never controlled the IRA.
*At the first opportunity given to the Irish electorate they forsook the armed campaign; the civil war transpired because about 2/3s of the IRA disregarded that popular mandate.

During the WoI the IRA comprised 15k members, of whom 5k were front line.

During the troubles IRA membership peaked at c1000, of whom 300 were on the front line (10k+ members over 30 years).

Exile 1798

Stabshauptmann,

You are correct in everything but on your last point most authors of the period agree what the IRA peaked at around 3000 members in the early 70s with 1500 in Belfast alone.

This number was reduced after the 1977 restructure of the IRA from the old battalion/brigade formation into a more secure cell structure. From then on it was always the view of British intelligence that the IRA consisted of 300 or so members on active service and a further 700-800 in support roles.

moonpurple

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Thankfully, we're also not living (or for that matter, not dead) in the "blinkered nationalist" world that some extremists would like to impose over and above the democratically-decided GFA, either.

wrong quote..soreee
we are all europeans now..you me and peter robinson all in it together
Somehow I don't think we're all living in the "post-nationalist" world John Hume would like us to be...fta69

well spotted, FTA69, I do admire John Hume, (especially his observation that Ireland without its people means nothing to him) I suppose in Cork city you have never witnessed the no warning car bombs of Dublin or Omagh, never known anybody personally to have their 10 year child go for an ice cream in an omagh shop one beautiful summers day and then become vapour owing to farmers fertilizer, and mammy's icing sugar, yes the british burned cork but at the time your sister was not allowed vote in elections at any age,

things change mo chara (my friend) and o am go ham, fado (and from time to time long ago) is just that, fado (long ago), bain teatneamh as(enjoy life) mo cara dilis and consider the best advice for Stormont just now from a Corkman built with both with salt and grit: .Move On. (Roy Keane)

Victor

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

There were not 20k volunteers in West Cork?! FFS, going on those kinds of numbers its a wonder we didnt invade and conquer England :rolleyes:

I'm not saying the 20,000 were militarily useful.

*The popular mandate achieved by SF in the 1918 elections did not include a call to arms.

Of course SF were controlled by the IRB/A.

FTA69

moonpurple wrote: »

wrong quote..soreee
we are all europeans now..you me and peter robinson all in it together
Somehow I don't think we're all living in the "post-nationalist" world John Hume would like us to be...fta69

well spotted, FTA69, I do admire John Hume, (especially his observation that Ireland without its people means nothing to him) I suppose in Cork city you have never witnessed the no warning car bombs of Dublin or Omagh, never known anybody personally to have their 10 year child go for an ice cream in an omagh shop one beautiful summers day and then become vapour owing to farmers fertilizer, and mammy's icing sugar, yes the british burned cork but at the time your sister was not allowed vote in elections at any age,

things change mo chara (my friend) and o am go ham, fado (and from time to time long ago) is just that, fado (long ago), bain teatneamh as(enjoy life) mo cara dilis and consider the best advice for Stormont just now from a Corkman built with both with salt and grit: .Move On. (Roy Keane)

Honest question, were you stoned writing that?

moonpurple

I don't use alcohol or drugs, the stark consequences of these misguided cira and rira groups needs to be spelt out, especially to the republic of Ireland young who may be sought out as cannon fodder, two more of these went into prison this week, imagine what happens next if one of their pipe bombs with the six inch nails included was first found and activated by a seven year old child?

timberland terrorism must be challenged at all times,

Voltaire: 'those who believe absurdities commit atrocities'

in reply to OP, republican prisoners are better off in the Republic's jails, get with the good friday agreement or face our Christian civil law, if you do not like how our minister for justice arranges detention, do not make the choices that will see you go inside, its called democracy, it may be less sexy than big bangs and machine guns,and secret meetings in the drizzle around carlingford, but it is 1000's of years old and it is the best system we have identified so far, Ta gach la ar la, agus ta gach la la nua (every day is our day, every day is a new day)

Stabshauptmann

Victor wrote: »

I'm not saying the 20,000 were militarily useful.

Of course SF were controlled by the IRB/A.

Im sorry Victor, you are one of the most knowledgeable and articulate posters on baords, but you are wrong in this case, it has been pointed out to you, and you are just being stubborn.

100,000+ joined the Irish Volunteers during peace time. They drilled, trained and expressed their commitment to an Irish Republic. When the war of independence began, only 15,000 of these men came forth, and of those only 5,000 did any actual fighting.

This isnt about who was effective or level of training, 20,000 men did not come forth in West Cork.

I know wikipedia isnt the best source in the world but you can follow the sources referenced in it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Republican_Army

(Actually wikipedia claims it was 15k men, of whom only 3k were front line).

It says the same thing in all the books I've ever read on the war of independence.

And as for the second point. Sf, IRA, and IRB cannot be used interchangably.

The people voted for SF, and this is the manefesto they endorsed

'GENERAL wrote:

THE coming General Election is fraught with vital possibilities for the future of our nation. Ireland is faced with the question whether this generation wills it that she is to march out into the full sunlight of freedom, or is to remain in the shadow of a base imperialism that has brought and ever will bring in its train naught but evil for our race.


Sinn Féin gives Ireland the opportunity of vindicating her honour and pursuing with renewed confidence the path of national salvation by rallying to the flag of the Irish Republic.

Sinn Féin aims at securing the establishment of that Republic.

1. By withdrawing the Irish Representation from the British Parliament and by denying the right and opposing the will of the British Government or any other foreign Government to legislate for Ireland.

2. By making use of any and every means available to render impotent the power of England to hold Ireland in subjection by military force or otherwise.

3. By the establishment of a constituent assembly comprising persons chosen by Irish constituencies as the supreme national authority to speak and act in the name of the Irish people, and to develop Ireland's social, political and industrial life, for the welfare of the whole people of Ireland.

4. By appealing to the Peace Conference for the establishment of Ireland as an Independent Nation. At that conference the future of the Nations of the world will be settled on the principle of government by consent of the governed. Ireland's claim to the application of that principle in her favour is not based on any accidental situation arising from the war. It is older than many if not all of the present belligerents. It is based on our unbroken tradition of nationhood, on a unity in a national name which has never been challenged, on our possession of a distinctive national culture and social order, on the moral courage and dignity of our people in the face of alien aggression, on the fact that in nearly every generation, and five times within the past 120 years our people have challenged in arms the right of England to rule this country. On these incontrovertible facts is based the claim that our people have beyond question established the right to be accorded all the power of a free nation.

Sinn Féin stands less for a political party than for the Nation; it represents the old tradition of nationhood handed on from dead generations; it stands by the Proclamation of the Provisional Government of Easter, 1916, reasserting the inalienable right of the Irish Nation to sovereign independence, reaffirming the determination of the Irish people to achieve it, and guaranteeing within the independent Nation equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens.

Believing that the time has arrived when Ireland's voice for the principle of untrammelled National self-determination should be heard above every interest of party or class, Sinn Féin will oppose at the Polls every individual candidate who does not accept this principle.

The policy of our opponents stands condemned on any test, whether of principle or expediency. The right of a nation to sovereign independence rests upon immutable natural law and cannot be made the subject of a compromise. Any attempt to barter away the sacred and inviolate rights of nationhood begins in dishonour and is bound to end in disaster. The enforced exodus of millions of our people, the decay of our industrial life, the ever-increasing financial plunder of our country, the whittling down of the demand for the 'Repeal of the Union,' voiced by the first Irish Leader to plead in the Hall of the Conqueror to that of Home Rule on the Statute Book, and finally the contemplated mutilation of our country by partition, are some of the ghastly results of a policy that leads to national ruin.

Those who have endeavoured to harness the people of Ireland to England's war-chariot, ignoring the fact that only a freely-elected Government in a free Ireland has power to decide for Ireland the question of peace and war, have forfeited the right to speak for the Irish people. The green flag turned red in the hands of the Leaders, but that shame is not to be laid at the doors of the Irish people unless they continue a policy of sending their representatives to an alien and hostile assembly, whose powerful influence has been sufficient to destroy the integrity and sap the independence of their representatives. Ireland must repudiate the men who, in a supreme crisis for the nation, attempted to sell her birthright for the vague promises of English Ministers, and who showed their incompetence by failing to have even these promises fulfilled.

The present Irish members of the English Parliament constitute an obstacle to be removed from the path that leads to the Peace Conference. By declaring their will to accept the status of a province instead of boldly taking their stand upon the right of the nation they supply England with the only subterfuge at her disposal for obscuring the issue in the eyes of the world. By their persistent endeavours to induce the young manhood of Ireland to don the uniform of our seven-century old oppressor, and place their lives at the disposal of the military machine that holds our Nation in bondage, they endeavour to barter away and even to use against itself the one great asset still left to our Nation after the havoc of the centuries.

Sinn Féin goes to the polls handicapped by all the arts and contrivances that a powerful and unscrupulous enemy can use against us. Conscious of the power of Sinn Féin to secure the freedom of Ireland the British Government would destroy it. Sinn Féin, however, goes to the polls confident that the people of this ancient nation will be true to the old cause and will vote for the men who stand by the principles of Tone, Emmet, Mitchel, Pearse and Connolly, the men who disdain to whine to the enemy for favours, the men who hold that Ireland must be as free as England or Holland, Switzerland or France, and who demand is that the only status befitting this ancient realm is the status of a free nation.

ISSUED BY THE STANDING COMMITTEE OF SINN FÉIN'

Stabshauptmann

Exile 1798 wrote: »

Stabshauptmann,

You are correct in everything but on your last point most authors of the period agree what the IRA peaked at around 3000 members in the early 70s with 1500 in Belfast alone.

This number was reduced after the 1977 restructure of the IRA from the old battalion/brigade formation into a more secure cell structure. From then on it was always the view of British intelligence that the IRA consisted of 300 or so members on active service and a further 700-800 in support roles.

Im using this as one of my primary sources
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/organ/iorgan.htm#ira

moonpurple

equates to the numbers of people in any society who are annoyed with that society and may let their unhappiness be known by becoming career criminals...or similar - outlaws in the Jesse James tradition

Goodness knows we all meet occasional folks who annoy us..but you gotta avoid doing what Yeats warned us about:

'and Cu Chulainn fought the ungovernable sea'

or Bono, maybe put it better, 'staring at the sun'

all around the world in 1970 we had eta, red brigades, baader meinhoff, PLO etc., - often well heeled aging hippies looking to replicate the Cuban revolution, (I like Cuba, been there twice) - thankfully a lot of these such as Pat Rabbitt and Eoghan Harris moved on and made robust democratic debate all the better and more meaningful since then..we have many good democrats from this period - a darn good example would be former President Mary Robinson

here endeth the lesson!

Exile 1798

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

Im using this as one of my primary sources
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/organ/iorgan.htm#ira

Fair enough, CAIN is a very good resource.

I've read Maloney and others state that membership peaked at around 3000. CAIN says 1500, we'll never really know for sure which is nearer the mark but they're in the same region.

Stabshauptmann

3 clicks to be rid of that incoherent muppet is too much, on that we surely can agree ;-)

the_syco

IMO, putting the RA heads and the druggies together would be bead for two reasons:

a) As already noted, it'd make life more difficult for everyone. Having one uncooperative prisoner is not good. Having a group of uncooperative prisoners is not something anyone wants.

b) People often say criminals learn to be better criminals in jail. Spending a term with an INLA bomb maker make improve your education, at the detriment of the general public upon your release.

moonpurple

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

Republican Sinn Fein held a protest outside Portlaoise Prison this weekend over plans to stop the segregation of republican prisoners.
http://rsf-kildare.blogspot.com/2010/01/portlaoise-prison-protest-saturday-23rd.html

This just got me thinking:
A)Whos still left in Portloaise Prison. Even Dessie O Hare has been released (arguably the most crazed and dangerous paramilitary of the troubles)

B)Do / did republicans have "political status" in the Irish and British prison systems?

with respect to your crisp powers of discourse friend, and your poorly disguised atavistic admiration for the (your revealing flattering description) Republican Prisoners

there are only prisoners in the prisons of Ireland, there are No republican prisoners or any other type, you are engaging in weasal words,

you break our laws, you go inside

With respect to your coherence and spelling of the Gaelic word Portlaoise: Dessie O'Hare?, the most destructive and misguided fascist terrorists imposing their nightmare of history (Joyce) since 1970 are easily identified, those who planned the no warning bombs of Enniskillen and Omagh

when you used the word arguably that often means an exchange of views, whereas 'sinn fein' may mean 'we ourselves' will decide what is good for everybody,

I welcome Gerry Adams saying that equality is still a radical issue throughout Ireland and I welcome Martin McGuinness describing those who killed the pizza buying British soldier since the Good Friday agreement in Ulster as 'traitors'

do you agree with Martin McGuinness in his view yes or no,