[Article] Bus firm faces unlicensed route charge

markpb

The Director of Public Prosecutions has summonsed Citylink representatives to appear before Galway District Court over the running of an unlicensed non-stop service between the two cities.

Citylink says it will fight any prosecution and may also seek a High Court judicial review of the Department of Transport’s failure to grant a licence for the service.

The company, which is owned by Singapore-based global transport giant ComfortDelGro, argues that the service is licensed because it is covered by the terms of an existing licence for a Dublin-Galway service with scheduled stops along the way.

(c) Irish Times

Looks like the DPP/DoT have finally found some teeth.

Gurgle

So these bastàrds are providing a timely public transport link between two cities.
In this country?
Can't be having that, now can we?

Cookie_Monster

Hopefully they won't stop with this one case and will go after all the other un-licensed service around like the Patton Flyer

corktina

surely competition will lead to a better service... delays in issueing licenses are aimed at protecting Bus Eireans monoploy arent they?

Gobus.ie followed the rules and waited for a license.

Citylink didn't and are running busses in direct competition at what are in my opinion unsustainable prices.

It looks like they are trying to put gobus out of business which isn't particularly good for competition.

munchkin_utd

...and Bus Eireann, who provide services to more than just city folks, are deprived of revenue (and connecting passengers) needed to operate local services in the county.

If you look at the breadth of service available in Northern Ireland (where there are no private scheduled operators) you will see how good a local service you can get when you don't have predators on intercity routes cherry picking the profitable connections but providing feck all service to outlying areas.

foggy_lad

munchkin_utd wrote: »

...and Bus Eireann, who provide services to more than just city folks, are deprived of revenue (and connecting passengers) needed to operate local services in the county.

If you look at the breadth of service available in Northern Ireland (where there are no private scheduled operators) you will see how good a local service you can get when you don't have predators on intercity routes cherry picking the profitable connections but providing feck all service to outlying areas.

operating without a licence is illegal. i would not trust any company that flouts the law in this way!

it is disgraceful that these cowboy operators cant be stopped by the guards and asked to produce evidence of being licensed and if they cant produce they should have their busses impounded until they produce the appropriate license and pay substantial fines!

JHMEG

Maybe they should ask the travelling public whether they want Citylink express services pulled or not.

corktina

munchkin_utd wrote: »

...and Bus Eireann, who provide services to more than just city folks, are deprived of revenue (and connecting passengers) needed to operate local services in the county.

If you look at the breadth of service available in Northern Ireland (where there are no private scheduled operators) you will see how good a local service you can get when you don't have predators on intercity routes cherry picking the profitable connections but providing feck all service to outlying areas.

I believe cross-subsiding services is not permitted under EU regulations. (I stand to be corrected here.)

JHMEG

munchkin_utd wrote: »

...and Bus Eireann, who provide services to more than just city folks, are deprived of revenue (and connecting passengers) needed to operate local services in the county.

If you look at the breadth of service available in Northern Ireland (where there are no private scheduled operators) you will see how good a local service you can get when you don't have predators on intercity routes cherry picking the profitable connections but providing feck all service to outlying areas.

Did you study at the Neil Kinnock school of economics? Do you remember when you could only fly Aer Lingus or BA to London?

Vic_08

corktina wrote: »

surely competition will lead to a better service...

No. Competition leads to better prices temporarily as competing companies try to undercut each other but that cannot last when they are clearly losing money in order to quash their rivals.

The competition on Galway-Dublin is a huge waste, if the resources currently being used on the route (appx 4 buses an hour each way daytime) were properly managed a far better service could be offered to more of the route.

corktina wrote: »

delays in issueing licenses are aimed at protecting Bus Eireans monoploy arent they?

What monopoly? There are licenced (and unlicenced) operators competing with Bus Eireann on the majority of the express network, a good deal of the Dublin area commuter network and numerous other routes throughout the country

If the DOT were acting in a protectionist way towards BE then why did they issue the licence for a non-stop Galway-Dublin service to Go-Bus while refusing a similar application from Bus Eireann?

corktina

well to continue your arguement, if they arent protecting BE, why not de-regulate services completely? You would then get a period of chaos follwed by improved services run by people who have a vested interest in being the best and beating off any contenders for that title.

My local services when I was a kid in England were a joke with a couple of buses a day....that firm went under a few years ago and a new company operate a very rapid half hourly long distance service through an area with limited potential.

Ham'nd'egger

corktina wrote: »

well to continue your arguement, if they arent protecting BE, why not de-regulate services completely? You would then get a period of chaos follwed by improved services run by people who have a vested interest in being the best and beating off any contenders for that title.

In the late 20's and 30's, buses and road hauliers operated completely unregulated in Ireland. The market in both trades was at times dangerous with sub standard vehicles and operators and it ended up in such chaos that the then Government had to step in with Transport Acts to help protect the public from the countless reckless operators out there. Unless there is a benchmark and standard bearer to adhere to, there will be no way to gauge improvements and ensure they are maintained.

corktina

appoint a regulator..maybe gay Byrne, he isnt doing a lot nowadays...

Vic_08

corktina wrote: »

well to continue your arguement, if they arent protecting BE, why not de-regulate services completely? You would then get a period of chaos follwed by improved services run by people who have a vested interest in being the best and beating off any contenders for that title.

That would require a change of the law currently governing bus services which require operators to apply for licences and the DOT to apply whatever logic they feel will make their political overlords happiest.

The current NTA (DTA) legislation would be the obvious place for any such changes but as always in Ireland the policies are based not on what would work best or what is in the best interest of the public but instead what is desired by whichever lobby groups have the closest relationship with the government of the day.

Fact is that deregulation would not be in the best interests of most current licenced operators who have carved out little profit making niches for themselves. The actions of ComfortDelGro is the sort of thing that would have the Kavanaghs, Collins, Burkes, et al wetting their beds at night. Large multi-nationals such as CDG, First and Stagecoach to name just a few have the resources and experience to invest heavily in a small market such as Ireland with a long term view of operating heavy losses for a few years in order to drive out the local minnows and create their own virtual monopoly.

This is exactly what happened in Britain when the industry was de-regulated, the big companies and ruthless sharks bought out or ran into submission most of the competition to the point that a handful of companies control the majority of services. The Irish companies that would face this competition are run by and large by people well connected with the Irish political classes and have plenty of influence over the likes of FF.

corktina wrote: »

My local services when I was a kid in England were a joke with a couple of buses a day....that firm went under a few years ago and a new company operate a very rapid half hourly long distance service through an area with limited potential.

And there are numerous areas that have seen services decimated under de-regulation compared to the municipal bus services they replaced.

The other feature of bus operations in the UK is the disjointed manner most of them operate in, companies all set their own fares and services and except in areas where local authorities have stepped in to try and give a more integrated network. by and large they all do their own thing and provide poor inter-connections, even on busy routes with frequent services passengers often have to buy multiple tickets or stick with one bus company's range and allow services pass them by because they are from a different company.

Sponge Bob

Deleted User wrote: »

Gobus.ie followed the rules and waited for a license.

Citylink didn't and are running busses in direct competition at what are in my opinion unsustainable prices.

It looks like they are trying to put gobus out of business which isn't particularly good for competition.

That is exactly what happened. Citylink are trying to drive a licenced operator off a route with an unlicenced service and predatory pricing both.

corktina

well if deregulation isnt your cup of tea, how about splitting BE up into smaller local companies that would have more interest in improving matters?

munchkin_utd

corktina wrote: »

well if deregulation isnt your cup of tea, how about splitting BE up into smaller local companies that would have more interest in improving matters?

Something along these lines would be probably the only way to do it.

Bundle licences for the super profitable intercity/ Regional commuter routes along with less commercially attractive local (+town?) connecting routes.
Let Bus Eireann Local depots bid for them, and private operators.
Whoever wins is the lucky operator for 5/ 6 years.
And the regional consumer has a local bus service to get him from A to B, and beyond.

With a strategy like this you could even eliminate a lot of the once a week pensioner runs that the Taxpayer is funding Bus Eireann and others for as they would already be catered for by your regional operator.

BTW: the National Transport Authority already has the powers to do this if my reading of the legislation is correct.

Ham'nd'egger

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Something along these lines would be probably the only way to do it.

Bundle licences for the super profitable intercity/ Regional commuter routes along with less commercially attractive local (+town?) connecting routes.
Let Bus Eireann Local depots bid for them, and private operators.
Whoever wins is the lucky operator for 5/ 6 years.
And the regional consumer has a local bus service to get him from A to B, and beyond.

With a strategy like this you could even eliminate a lot of the once a week pensioner runs that the Taxpayer is funding Bus Eireann and others for as they would already be catered for by your regional operator.

This is what happened initially in the UK; bidding and franchising of routes with no consideration and application of socially desirable services such as buses at weekends, bank holidays and after rush hour so many areas it has destroyed communities as they no longer have transport links . Many of the once a week routes link towns on market/fair days and yes they have less relevance in car ruled Ireland but they are not essentially run with a dedicated bus and are not any mass hinderance to services as a whole.

munchkin_utd wrote: »

BTW: the National Transport Authority already has the powers to do this if my reading of the legislation is correct.

The Minister always has had powers to cancel routes as he sees fit. The bigger issue is in how his Department apply the Law as it stands.

jhegarty

Vic_08 wrote: »

No. Competition leads to better prices temporarily as competing companies try to undercut each other but that cannot last when they are clearly losing money in order to quash their rivals.

I can still fly to London for €5 , so it seems to have worked for customer there. Why does it work for airlines , but not buses ?

Ham'nd'egger

jhegarty wrote: »

I can still fly to London for €5 , so it seems to have worked for customer there. Why does it work for airlines , but not buses ?

Yes you can.... At certain times. Other times it's €500.

JHMEG

Hamndegger wrote: »

Yes you can.... At certain times. Other times it's €500.

Just like the cheap bus fares are sometimes in operation, at other times they're not.

foggy_lad

bus eireann provide a great service that the other operators are not yet obliged to provide but hopefully when the unlicensed operators are put off the roads all companies can work towards providing a service for all people even if it is just a weekly pension bus for the many older people who's only weekly outing is getting their pension and bit of shopping in the nearest town.

L1011

Isn't the fine for running an unlicenced route a whopping, crippling €6.34 a day? I'm sure the passengers can have a whip-around...

Ham'nd'egger

JHMEG wrote: »

Just like the cheap bus fares are sometimes in operation, at other times they're not.

Buses also have a maximum fare, regular departures from the city and practical baggage rules;)

AlekSmart

I can still fly to London for €5 , so it seems to have worked for customer there. Why does it work for airlines , but not buses ?

And with that very much in mind,a VERY interesting appointment to the Board of Aer Lingus today...Ms Nicola Shaw,Director,Bus-UK,Ireland and Germany for First Group plc....parent company of Aircoach.......Who sez the principle of synergy is fallow in Ireland !

Oliver1985

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0125/transport.html

Vic_08

JHMEG wrote: »

Just like the cheap bus fares are sometimes in operation, at other times they're not.

And the €200-€500 bus fares for last minute purchases on peak departures such as those the low fares airlines need to subsidise the €5 fares, where are they? Or do you really think Ryanair can actually make a profit from selling entire planeloads at €5 per seat?

Reality is that nobody is going to pay the high peaks for a bus journey that the airlines routinely charge, same goes for hefty baggage charges.

JHMEG

Vic_08 wrote: »

And the €200-€500 bus fares for last minute purchases on peak departures such as those the low fares airlines need to subsidise the €5 fares, where are they? Or do you really think Ryanair can actually make a profit from selling entire planeloads at €5 per seat?

Reality is that nobody is going to pay the high peaks for a bus journey that the airlines routinely charge, same goes for hefty baggage charges.

Do you run a bus company? Do you run Citylink? Or how do you know they're not making a profit? Or are you just speculating after looking at a few websites?

Cookie_Monster

Vic_08 wrote: »

And the €200-€500 bus fares for last minute purchases on peak departures such as those the low fares airlines need to subsidise the €5 fares, where are they? Or do you really think Ryanair can actually make a profit from selling entire planeloads at €5 per seat?

Reality is that nobody is going to pay the high peaks for a bus journey that the airlines routinely charge, same goes for hefty baggage charges.

+1 good post

JHMEG wrote: »

Do you run a bus company? Do you run Citylink? Or how do you know they're not making a profit? Or are you just speculating after looking at a few websites?

Jeez, chill out, he makes a good point about how airlines and bus companies are not comparable in this regard.

JHMEG

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Jeez, chill out, he makes a good point about how airlines and bus companies are not comparable in this regard.

Do you run a bus company? There are discount seats and there are full price seats. The company probably makes a profit. But I'm only speculating, as I don't run Citylink.

Cookie_Monster

JHMEG wrote: »

Do you run a bus company?

I run a train company in my spare time

JHMEG wrote: »

There are discount seats and there are full price seats. The company probably makes a profit. But I'm only speculating, as I don't run Citylink.

But there is a standard maximum fare unlike airline where the price will continually go up/down

skelliser

iirc the fine citylink are paying is something like 6euro a day

dowlingm

6.35 - 5 pounds old money.

One thing I never understand about govt is why fines aren't indexed to CPI using a one line addition to every finance bill.

Ham'nd'egger implies that deregulation of routes implies no oversight - this is not true in the aviation industry where routes were largely deregulated but the Aviation Authorities of individual states still approved Operating Certificates etc. The difference there is that there are only so many airports whereas the first problem with deregulated buses would be a town with one bus stop would suddenly have five.

devnull

May I ask why they are being hauled up and a Mr Patton not?

Cookie_Monster

devnull wrote: »

May I ask why they are being hauled up and a Mr Patton not?

BE an GoBus complaints

JHMEG

This makes for very interesting reading:

http://www.thepattonflyer.ie/LatestNews.htm

The Dept of Transport did not consider their original application as they could only find the front page, yet in a FOI request the Dept included a photocopy of the whole application! WTF??!

Cookie_Monster

JHMEG wrote: »

This makes for very interesting reading:

http://www.thepattonflyer.ie/LatestNews.htm

The Dept of Transport did not consider their original application as they could only find the front page, yet in a FOI request the Dept included a photocopy of the whole application! WTF??!

Could just be Patton lying about it, he been known to stretch the truth before. His definition of what constitues "private hire" for example is dodgy to say the least

JHMEG

No point in making claims if you don't have the proof in writing.

If all that is true, and I have no reason to think otherwise, I'd haul the DoT straight into court without further delay.

Losing pages of the application, not telling anyone, and the discarding the application because of it. Come on... I'm starting to believe everything Michael O'Leary and KC61 say about the DoT.

JHMEG

Oh, and I don't deny that the defintion of Private Hire may be out of whack, but the bigger issue here is the DoT.

Sponge Bob

JHMEG wrote: »

the bigger issue here is the DoT.

LOL at fixing anything with Dempsey in charge

KC61

I personally believe that there is a need for good strong public transport in Ireland that offers local and express routes, but that it is regulated with the public interest being the first and over-riding principle, i.e. providing the customer with a decent service.

The current situation on the Dublin-Galway route is totally unsustainable. There are in each direction currently:

8 trains per day
10 Gobus non-stop services per day (12 on Fridays and Sundays)
14 Citylink non-stop services per day
15 Citylink stopping services per day (19 on Sundays from Galway, 17 on Fridays from Dublin)
15 Bus Eireann stopping services per day
2 Bus Eireann limited stop services per day (X20)

This cannot be sustained and will ultimately end up in someone going bust - and I doubt it will be Citylink whose parent has lots of money to throw at it.

The UK market post-privitisation has left huge swathes of the country with no off-peak service, as the big groups hoovered up the small local operators and then withdrew significant amounts of routes.

I don't agree with the current DoT approach to licensing one iota, as it is operator (and not customer) focussed. However it is the law. Citylink are (in my opinion) in breach of the 1932 legislation but are quite happy to continue regardless as the penalties are meaningless. The risk of going the way of the UK is huge if it is not managed.

The new Public Transport Regulation Act 2009 (available at http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/acts/2009/a3709.pdf) and the establishment of the National Transport Authority will hopefully make a change to this - but the NTA is going to take time to find its feet.

schemingbohemia

JHMEG wrote: »

No point in making claims if you don't have the proof in writing.

If all that is true, and I have no reason to think otherwise, I'd haul the DoT straight into court without further delay.

Losing pages of the application, not telling anyone, and the discarding the application because of it. Come on... I'm starting to believe everything Michael O'Leary and KC61 say about the DoT.

You seem happy to accept mr patton's point of view on this without proof so why not cookie monsters?
if what patton says is true why hasn't he taken the DoT to court?
why did he not tell anyone about refusing the license he was offered until it was put in the public domain?

JHMEG

KC61 wrote: »

I personally believe that there is a need for good strong public transport in Ireland that offers local and express routes, but that it is regulated with the public interest being the first and over-riding principle, i.e. providing the customer with a decent service.

The current situation on the Dublin-Galway route is totally unsustainable. There are in each direction currently:

A lot of people wouldn't subscribe to that. On busy (read profitable) there should be no intereference by the govt and the market should be allowed to find its natural level.

KC61

All I can say is that in the UK, experience has shown that the profitable routes were focussed on by operators to the severe detriment of the local bus service with many areas losing their bus service altogether.

Public transport is an essential service and while there are plenty of opportunities to make a profit from it (and rightly so), my fear is that we will end up in a situation with the public interest being disregarded in favour of the operator and that is not good for the consumer.

BT!

Sponge Bob wrote: »

That is exactly what happened. Citylink are trying to drive a licenced operator off a route with an unlicensed service and predatory pricing both.

sponge bob is correct, Scottish Citylink are also Irish Citylink. http://www.citylink.ie/archivenews091202.php
large multi national operators in the UK started this way, running minutes ahead of the existing bus company with predatory pricing, it was literally a case of who ever had the deepest pockets stayed in business, there was numerous TV documentaries on the consequences of this, the consumer lost out at the end of it all.

Ham'nd'egger

BT! wrote: »

sponge bob is correct, Scottish Citylink are also Irish Citylink. http://www.citylink.ie/archivenews091202.php
large multi national operators in the UK started this way, running minutes ahead of the existing bus company with predatory pricing, it was literally a case of who ever had the deepest pockets stayed in business, there was numerous TV documentaries on the consequences of this, the consumer lost out at the end of it all.

Another trick used by the big players in the UK was to run a free bus right behind the local service until such time as it ceased running the route. Once it was gone, it would then raise it's fares well over what the former competition charged. People find free buses and choice great so long as it's there; when it's gone by God is it gone.

BT!

Hamndegger wrote: »

Another trick used by the big players in the UK was to run a free bus right behind the local service until such time as it ceased running the route. Once it was gone, it would then raise it's fares well over what the former competition charged. People find free buses and choice great so long as it's there; when it's gone by God is it gone.

Scottish Citylink in Galway use http://marksman-int.co.uk/ as their PR company, coincidentally they are also PR for Stagecoach, another big player in the UK, surprise surprise !!! how many jobs will be lost in the indigenous companies who are now competitors to Scottish Citylink in Galway, as Ham'nd'egger says people find free buses or €1 fares great as long as it's there !!!! the DPP is actually prosecuting Scottish Citylink for operating an unlicensed route in Galway, !!!!


http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0125/transport.html

Sponge Bob

The competition authority, if it was any good, would all over these ****