Should we pay for water ?

toiletduck

Do the Greens have any policies which don't involve the general public having to bend over and 'take one for the environment'?

stovelid

The Irish paradox: demand better services; demand lower taxes.

ART6

homerjay2005 wrote: »

o
i would structure it in such a way that maybe everybody had an allowance and once they went over that, they paid. a huge amount of water, which costs alot to treat, goes on flushing toilets. i would be all in favour of the proposal to have 2 water supplies for new housing estates in the future where one is the treated water for drinking/washing etc and the 2nd is untreated rain water gathered in each individual house for toilet flushing only.

I tried that when we last had our water supply turned off (it happens a lot where I live). The amount of muck in it washed off the roof was unbelievable and it left a layer of silt in the toilet bowl as well as staining everything it touched. Then there is the problem that if you live in a bungalow, as many Irish people do, it's impossible to place a collecting tank at a high enough level to provide sufficient head of water to flush a toilet. The alternative would be to fit a pump, but that would need electricity to run it (a distinct environmental improvement) and a filter before the pump to keep the muck out.

If you go on posting suggestions like that I see a very real danger that Gormless will read it. Then the next thing we know there will be a law that requires us all to disconnect our toilets from the mains and install a rain water tank (with a meter to discourage us from using too much rain). Pay 21% VAT on the tank, pump, and fittings, and a carbon tax on the elctricity the pump uses. Stop giving that goon ideas:D

Vegeta

What's your rate of VAT and Income Tax?

Overheal wrote: »

I already pay ~$30/mo 360/yr + any overage.

Really, really not the end of the world. Its not like a TV license or something where RTE could just pay for its damn self. Water facilities get money by getting paid. Not from running Commercials. And that dont have to pay whatever slag is hosting a late night talk show.

Almost all service providers in the world charge tariffs to recover part of their costs. According to estimates by the World Bank the average (mean) global water tariff is US$ 0.53 per cubic meter. In developed countries the average tariff is US$ 1.04, while it is only U$ 0.11 in the poorest developing countries. The lowest tariffs in developing countries are found in South Asia (mean of US$ 0.09/m3), while the highest are found in Latin America (US$ 0.41/m3).[3] Few utilities do recover all their costs. According to the same World Bank study only 30% of utilities globally, and only 50% of utilities in developed countries, generate sufficient revenue to cover operation, maintenance and partial capital costs.

Either way you swing it youre already paying for your water. This way however, it wont be a stealth tax.

And considering the number of outages and outbreaks in the Midwest, its clear that you either need a New, High Capacity water treatment system to meet your insatiable demand for the wet stuff [for Free no less] (Recently constructed one, afaik) OR you COULD have just imposed Metering, and Water consumption in the Midwest PROBABLY wouldve fallen back down to Levels that the Existing Treatment Facilities could have tolerated.

edit: These are my monthly rates, (PDF)

So im paying, default, about $31 for 2000 Gallons per month and Sewage Expense. This is plenty. after that its a mere $1.50 for each additional 1000 gallons or part of. As I said: Hardly outrageous. Your Pats' only beef is that - being new to the game - you need to pay for a Meter up front Now. Whereas in just about any other Developed country, these programs have been around for decades or longer and the meters are simply an expense on constructing a new home.

Morlar

Vegeta wrote: »

What's your rate of VAT and Income Tax?

VAT in the states is 6% sales tax in some states as opposed to our 21.5%

The water charges also wont be $30 per month here - thats for sure.

Already the independent puts it @ €400 per year, upwards. Not including the meters outlay & installation.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/homes-face-annual-euro400-water-charge-in-meter-plan-2031340.html

HOUSEHOLDERS face the prospect of steadily increasing water charges once a metering system is introduced.

The Department of Finance has already proposed an interim charge of €175 per annum, which would yield €200m for the Government.

But Environment Minister John Gormley yesterday raised the possibility that the final bill for householders could be substantially higher, after he revealed he ultimately hopes to raise €1bn.

A Department of Finance briefing document prepared for An Bord Snip last summer said a flat-rate charge of €175 per house would bring in €200m even before metering starts.

But a spokesman for Mr Gormley last night stressed that the €1bn was an ultimate aim and would not be gathered from the beginning of the scheme.

Fianna Fail and the Green Party have agreed to bring in water charges and Mr Gormley favours giving houses an allocation of free water and then charging if they exceed it.

His spokesman said the €1bn would be taken from both commercial and residential water metering, ruling out the prospect of a €900-a-year charge for householders.

It is estimated that each home could end up being billed between €300 and €400 a year in water charges.

In the next few weeks, Mr Gormley will present a memo to the Government on the proposed metering of 1.2 million homes, which is due to begin next year. But officials say this memo will primarily deal with metering and would not go into detail on the amount of money householders may have to pay.

It is hoped the roll-out will begin next year to meet the full cost of providing treated, clean drinking water to every home.

Mr Gormley yesterday announced €300m in funding to upgrade the country's water supplies over the next three years.

He said the record repair bill would see burst pipes and old mains systems replaced as some regions were losing half of their water supply through leaks. The problem is particularly serious in areas such as Roscommon, where 58.6pc of water is lost.

Mr Gormley said the problem of water loss was unacceptable and had to be addressed. He described the decision to scrap water charges in 1997 as "nonsensical and pretty spineless".

He said water metering was essential to create a fair system that would bring in significant water savings.

Savings

The Department of the Environment said average savings of 16pc per household could be achieved after meters have been installed.

Meanwhile, parts of Dublin and Clare are still without normal supplies after the big freeze damaged ageing water pipes.

"We are playing a huge game of catch-up with our water infrastructure, following decades of under-investment," Mr Gormley said.

The €300m allocated for repairs is not new money but has been redirected from elsewhere in the Department of Environment budget to ease pressure on the supply network.

"The difficulties experienced by thousands of householders across the country show clearly there are still huge issues with our water infrastructure and consumption of water," Mr Gormley said.

"Our approach to drinking water in Ireland has been unsustainable, and we must change that approach."

Niall Keane

In Germany less flushing has meant drains taking the concentrated piss and the concrete sewers not lasting as long = cost to replace and traffic disruption. Also it has meant a world of sh!t for every bend in drainage systems not designed with sufficient slope to cope with less water flow to carry the crap elsewhere!

What's that Misfits song...... GREEN HELL!

mp22

rates by another name

The_Conductor

mp22 wrote: »

rates by another name

Nah- they're bringing them back too....... :mad::mad::mad:

galah

also in Germany, not only will you pay for drinking water and waste water, you also (at least in my parents' town), pay for the water that is absorbed by the ground, per square metre. (as in, you pay a flat fee per m2 of your unsealed property, because the rain water that comes down on it has to be transported using council drainage systems.)

Now THAT's what I call crazy. Would work superbly here, as well, what with all the rain.


I'm all for water charges, seeing the unbelievable waste in this country. But only if the water then supplied is actually clean, free of contaminants (crypto or lead poisoning, anyone?) and drinkable.

But as other posters have already pointed out, this laudable approach will be detsroyed by the government and just used as another vehicle to extort money out of tax payers to no good effect. Who here really thinks they'd use the money raised to fix the pipes? Anyone? Thought so.

Overheal

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote: »

Right, because the whole system has been run by unpaid volunteers working by candle-light who receive no money what so ever from our taxes.

Oh sorry I should have paraphrased "Free"

You sure are paying for it in your taxes but that solution has clearly been ineffective, evident from your water and sewage system being on the verge of complete failure. Thats hardly a Hyperbole either.

You know who's water systems Are not Failing? First World countries with metered water programs..

also in Germany, not only will you pay for drinking water and waste water, you also (at least in my parents' town), pay for the water that is absorbed by the ground, per square metre. (as in, you pay a flat fee per m2 of your unsealed property, because the rain water that comes down on it has to be transported using council drainage systems.)

Thats interesting. I've heard of other systems where the exact opposite is true: You pay per m^2 of your impermeable land, because it in theory surface runoff contributes to soil erosion.

Are you sure its not Impermeable? Usually you expect groundwater in meadows etc. not to enter the drainage system at all. So the above statement doesnt make much sense.

I can't see how metering and charging is going to guarantee upgrading and improvement of supplies when the current system doesn't.

I addressed those points several posts earlier. I'd strongly wager within 6 months your water consumption would drop down to levels the current facilities can actually support and purify. That plus the money generated if it doesnt go into someones pocket would generate the money for these Budget-busting projects like new treatment facilities that Clare recently got. The difference being the money will come from metering and not 'Borrowed' from other public projects like roads and education. As it currently is, when you think about it, as part of the Annual Budget.

Morlar wrote:

VAT in the states is 6% sales tax in some states as opposed to our 21.5%

Thats a lie: We dont have Value Added Tax. We have Sales Tax. VAT while handy in the grocery store when you're figuring pocket change seriously covers up how much you're being taxed on items.

For the record though I pay a SC sales tax of 6% and a Dorchester County tax of 1% additional.

Morlar wrote:

HOUSEHOLDERS face the prospect of steadily increasing water charges once a metering system is introduced.

Shock tactics tbh. Again pointing back on meself, google the Commissioners of Public Works summerville: Our water rates were raised $4 a month in 2008: Which made it the first rate increase in 14 years.

But you're probably right, you'll be screwed for the next 10 years because you as a Country have allowed the infrastructure to fall apart since metering was repealed. Now you'll have to play catchup to foot the repair bill. Shucks.

Funny because I wrote the above before reading the article Morlar posted, and thats exactly what Gormley is saying,

"He said the record repair bill would see burst pipes and old mains systems replaced as some regions were losing half of their water supply through leaks. The problem is particularly serious in areas such as Roscommon, where 58.6pc of water is lost.

Mr Gormley said the problem of water loss was unacceptable and had to be addressed. He described the decision to scrap water charges in 1997 as "nonsensical and pretty spineless".

He said water metering was essential to create a fair system that would bring in significant water savings.

"We are playing a huge game of catch-up with our water infrastructure, following decades of under-investment," Mr Gormley said.

The €300m allocated for repairs is not new money but has been redirected from elsewhere in the Department of Environment budget to ease pressure on the supply network.

"The difficulties experienced by thousands of householders across the country show clearly there are still huge issues with our water infrastructure and consumption of water," Mr Gormley said.

"Our approach to drinking water in Ireland has been unsustainable, and we must change that approach." "

Forget for a moment its Gormley: is what he is saying Wrong? Do you think your current system is Sustainable?

Tribesmen7

Paying for it wouldn't be so bad it it was actually drinkable.

Overheal

Vegeta wrote: »

What's your rate of VAT and Income Tax?

Is the implication in that question that paying 21% VAT is somehow acceptable for the services you've received?

I haven't lived here long enough to really tally my entire cost of living. Water, Sewage, Road Taxes, Property Taxes. It could very well top your 21%. But the trick is things more or less run a lot smoother.

Joey the lips wrote: »

You got to love the greens and the govt. The govt promised no new taxes "Oh but i didnt do it sir it was him, i just held his hand"

I reckon we should lump all our tax together in one pot that way the govt can decide what to give us instead of just slowly takeing it away.

I know this seems to be an anti dublin thing but does all the lovely students and workers from outside the pale understand that this just gets added onto their rent.

Thats pretty much what goes on right now. They tax you through the nose on your income and spit it out in an Annual Budget right around Christmas Time when everybody's stressed out about money.

I can see why youre all stressed out half the time. Horrible way to live.

Morlar

Overheal wrote: »

Road Taxes, Property Taxes. It could very well top your 21%.

We pay those in addition to VAT as well as various current and future levies and so on. What state are you in ? Your sales tax rate should not be too difficult to figure out.

I am pretty sure that motor tax in Ireland is a multiple of your road tax. Also it doesnt go towards the roads.

bladespin

I'm not completely against paying for our water supply but there are a few conditions I would want met before they start charging (taxing) for it:

The supply must be of saleable quality, if the quality drops below the EU standard for drinking water (not that high TBH) the end user should be entitled to compensation for hardship.

The supply must be constant, if cut-offs are required then there should be compensation (covered this above also).

Meters would have to be calibrated regularly and through an independant metrology lab.

M5

Vegeta wrote: »

We already pay for water through taxes

Lower my tax rate and I'll pay by usage no problemo.

I don't like paying for things twice.

Well said!

starbelgrade

Niall Keane wrote: »

In Germany less flushing has meant drains taking the concentrated piss

Overheal

Morlar wrote: »

We pay those in addition to VAT as well as various current and future levies and so on. What state are you in ? Your sales tax rate should not be too difficult to figure out.

I am pretty sure that motor tax in Ireland is a multiple of your road tax. Also it doesnt go towards the roads.

I can give you a scan of my road tax bill by tomorrow morning. 90% of mine goes to local Education.

I've posted my tax in an above post that I went to town on.

Michael B

No we shouldn't, there's more rain in this country than any other! But of course it will come in, any excuse to fleece money off us.

Overheal

bladespin wrote: »

I'm not completely against paying for our water supply but there are a few conditions I would want met before they start charging (taxing) for it:

The supply must be of saleable quality, if the quality drops below the EU standard for drinking water (not that high TBH) the end user should be entitled to compensation for hardship.

The supply must be constant, if cut-offs are required then there should be compensation (covered this above also).

Meters would have to be calibrated regularly and through an independant metrology lab.

Then you have a paradox: because the money needed to get the System back up to that state will have to come from somewhere. According to Gormley its being siphoned currently from elsewhere in the Dept of Energy Budget. Who is to say next year the DoE wont get a bigger budget in the Annual Budget for 2011? Where will that money come from? Roads, Healthcare, Education, Civil Services? The way your budget and taxation is currently setup, thats what it will eventually boil down to - Money that was going to be earmarked for something else will end up to the DoE.

In addition to that, and Ive said it a few times now, is metering will slash water supply Demand, reduce the strain on Supply, and I think you'll find that in turn will help expedite the return of quality drinking water. Mind you its not just for drinking, but I see your point.

Vegeta

Overheal wrote: »

Is the implication in that question that paying 21% VAT is somehow acceptable for the services you've received?

I haven't lived here long enough to really tally my entire cost of living. Water, Sewage, Road Taxes, Property Taxes. It could very well top your 21%. But the trick is things more or less run a lot smoother.

No implication at all.

I know VAT (apologies I meant sales tax but it's the closest thing we have to VAT I have experience of) is low in America (depending on state) but what is income tax charged at. I'm finding it hard to get a straight answer on that from a google search.

We pay 21% VAT on most things and income is taxed as following. The first €36,400 @ 20% and any more than that is taxed at @ 41%. There's an income levy of 1.67% for earnings up to 75k and PRSI of 6.33%. I think. There is a tax credit system where Gross Tax less Tax Credits = Tax Payable for a single person like me I think it may be 5k per annum.

Last year and projected for this year the VAT and Income tax make up like 66% of the 32-33 billion of government receipts.

So the proposed 1 billion water charges as a percentage of the 23 billion in VAT and Income Tax is ~4.5%. That's a large figure.

If between VAT and Income Tax I am given back this 4.5% I will pay water rates no problem.

Overheal

I see what your saying Vegeta but why should VAT on purchases of Cocacola and Video Games go toward the Water and Sewage network?

Anyway thats moot. From what I've seen (and you could fire off a PM to Biggins and get his opinion) there is a fundamental mismanagement in the country as Things Stand Now. People are getting and demanding more services than can be payed for. So essential services arent getting the funding they need when projects such as the Pipe Repairs need doing. Unlike the Road Tax (again, most of mine goes to Education) the Water Systems are run essentially by independent municipals

No we shouldn't, there's more rain in this country than any other! But of course it will come in, any excuse to fleece money off us.

Its not a question of a supply of the Raw Material, its a question of Purification, Delivery and Sanitation services.

There was a time when people just slushed their bedpans out the 2nd floor window and let the muddy roads do the rest.

galah

Overheal wrote: »

Thats interesting. I've heard of other systems where the exact opposite is true: You pay per m^2 of your impermeable land, because it in theory surface runoff contributes to soil erosion.

Are you sure its not Impermeable? Usually you expect groundwater in meadows etc. not to enter the drainage system at all. So the above statement doesnt make much sense.

sorry, of course, you were correct. Anywhere were water has to enter the canals because it cannot go into the ground.

smegmar

NO NO AND NO

Under no circumstances should life giving water be charged. It's madness. As human being we are water, we need water to live and to be healthy. As citizens of this country we have the right to free access to water any such move to charge for that is a step backward in society. I ca understand if someone wants to live in a remote area a charge may be filed for the extra pipe work but for the supply of water, no country can call it self civilized if water is a commodity.

What next? Privatization of water distribution?? Look only over the sea to England where they have gone down that road. It is a horrible mess. where many don't get the water they pay for and there is just as much leakage as before.

-->>tariffs increased by 46% in real terms during the first nine years,

-->>operating profits have more than doubled (+142%) in eight years,

-->>investments were reduced and

-->>public health was jeopardised through cut-offs for non-payment

Such absurd idea only enter a desperate mind, that of John Gormly. should such a thing come to be I will with out hesitation leave Ireland until the folly has been realized and corrected

smegmar

The supply of water should be a guaranteed service for everyone who pays taxes and owns a home. This is something that should be taken from the taxes we already pay. a loss leader maybe, but none the less the duty of a state to supple it's people with clean water.

The_Conductor

smegmar wrote: »

NO NO AND NO

Under no circumstances should life giving water be charged. It's madness. As human being we are water, we need water to live and to be healthy. As citizens of this country we have the right to free access to water any such move to charge for that is a step backward in society. I ca understand if someone wants to live in a remote area a charge may be filed for the extra pipe work but for the supply of water, no country can call it self civilized if water is a commodity.

What next? Privatization of water distribution?? Look only over the sea to England where they have gone down that road. It is a horrible mess. where many don't get the water they pay for and there is just as much leakage as before.

-->>tariffs increased by 46% in real terms during the first nine years,

-->>operating profits have more than doubled (+142%) in eight years,

-->>investments were reduced and

-->>public health was jeopardised through cut-offs for non-payment

Such absurd idea only enter a desperate mind, that of John Gormly. should such a thing come to be I will with out hesitation leave Ireland until the folly has been realized and corrected

If you're not willing to pay for water- how do you propose the government should cover the cost of providing clean water to residential users (business users and farmers are already metered and pay for their usage).

It costs north of a billion a year to supply drinking water to residential users. In better times when money was no object- this was not an issue. Now- we have two options- the user pays principle (which should encourage people to conserve water- but should not be set at too high a price)- or we identify other expenditure to a similar or greater amount and sacrifice it in lieu of charging for water- which simply isn't going to fly either.

How do you propose paying for your water?

ScumLord

smccarrick wrote: »

If you're not willing to pay for water- how do you propose the government should cover the cost of providing clean water to residential users (business users and farmers are already metered and pay for their usage).

It costs north of a billion a year to supply drinking water to residential users. In better times when money was no object- this was not an issue. Now- we have two options- the user pays principle (which should encourage people to conserve water- but should not be set at too high a price)- or we identify other expenditure to a similar or greater amount and sacrifice it in lieu of charging for water- which simply isn't going to fly either.

How do you propose paying for your water?

We're already paying for water. Giving the government more money would probably only make the problem worse as they continue to make the same mistakes on a bigger scale.

phasers

What would happen if you refused to let them install a meter in your house? Say you couldn't afford the installation, would it be installed anyway or would they just guess how much water you use...?

smegmar

as with most government projects it will be a catastrophic failure, running over budget and off schedule.

AS I already stated the cost of water supply should be a loss for the government, as a standard requirement of public services. they must find other ways to solve this problem that they themselves have gotten into. Minister's salaries, wasteful inquiries, reckless HSE spending, low cooperation tax.

the list of alternatives goes on and on. there is no excuse for charging water.

Saruman

The only way we should pay is if there is a generous free amount each month and you only pay for what you go over so that households with 4 kids and two adults will not pay unless the plebs leave the taps on during the winter.

Morlar

Saruman wrote: »

the plebs leave the taps on during the winter.

I have not seen any official figures on water consumption in Ireland running at a constant higher rate in the overnight hours during the freeze - has anyone seen the proof that this was even a factor ? Besides with water charging you can be sure those same plebs will be on social welfare water allowance and so wont be paying anyway.

Overheal

phasers wrote: »

What would happen if you refused to let them install a meter in your house? Say you couldn't afford the installation, would it be installed anyway or would they just guess how much water you use...?

If/When metering gets passed im sure they will have some measure of enforcement. You would probably have to pay some form of fine for noncompliance. I cant see them just imposing a flat rate on people who refuse to comply - it would make a terrible loophole for industries.

AS I already stated the cost of water supply should be a loss for the government, as a standard requirement of public services. they must find other ways to solve this problem that they themselves have gotten into. Minister's salaries, wasteful inquiries, reckless HSE spending, low cooperation tax.

Government's are By the People for the People.

Its Your Money no matter if it comes out of your wallet or your arse. You're talking about Your Loss.

And then when your elected Govt wants to Fix the problem you fight them at every step.

the plebs leave the taps on during the winter.

Which, you need to do, in order to stop your pipes from bursting if and when they freeze - leave them on a trickle, and give the pressure some place to escape.

The only way we should pay is if there is a generous free amount each month and you only pay for what you go over so that households with 4 kids and two adults will not pay unless the plebs leave the taps on during the winter.

I pay about $20 (€14.23) for 6000 gallons a month. I never go over this but theres only 2 of us. After 6k gallons you pay $1.50 (€1.07) for each additional 1k gallons. The rates and charges probably vary by municipality but would be more or less the same. Plus Sewage, this works out to about $30 (€21.34) a month, or $360 (€256) a year.

dlofnep

We live on an Island that is riddled with rivers and rains every single day of the year.

Pay for water?

Fúck off.

MeerKat17

I live in Galway, my water is brown so I buy bottled water always...I am not paying for brown slurry ridden water.

ShooterSF

Overheal wrote: »

You know, theres places in Africa where they'd gladly pay for water.

Strange. Last I checked they were asking us for money to build wells. Must be different africans...

Overheal

dlofnep wrote: »

We live on an Island that is riddled with rivers and rains every single day of the year.

Pay for water?

Fúck off.

Well you will always have the option to Bathe in the rivers and ponds. But I dont see them purifying themselves and making their way into your water heater all by themselves. Thats why we have Plumbing. Marvelous contraption. Costs money though...

MeerKat17 wrote: »

I live in Galway, my water is brown so I buy bottled water always...I am not paying for brown slurry ridden water.

Which is a regrettable consequence of the Existing "Free Water" system - which Is Not Working.

ART6

Thus far my posts in this thread have been cynical, so here's another one.

For a number of years, after I returned to Europe I landed in the UK and worked there for a number of years. I had a house there, and (I think) in the 1980s the water supply was privatised. Water companies sprang up all over the place, and the potable water we had been getting for free from the LAs as a part of the house rates we paid now became chargeable. The new charges were to fund the replacement of ancient mains, and the charges proceeded to rocket. But it didn't stop there. Now the new water companies could also charge for sewage (we charge you to supply it and we charge you to take it away again). Included in that was any water from your residence that entered their main drains, including rain water. In addition, it was deemed that all water reserves in a region belonged to the local water company, so if you had a well you still had to pay. Needless to say, the house rates didn't reduce accordingly.

Her and I owned (on a mortgage) a three bedroomed semi in a country town, and when we finally gave up on the UK in the early nineties and came home, our rates bill was just over £1,000. In addition we paid (as far as I recall) £400 for water and £200 for sewage. Total annual bill £1,600 to live in the house I paid for out of whatever income the government left me after grabs.

The new water companies proceeded to make millions.

Now I warn. The government will introduce water charges and domestic rates. In the former case they will argue that the EU Directives require it and they have no choice. Water meters will be required, and every house owner will have to pay for them, and will then have to pay the bills they generate.

Domestic rates will not reflect the cost of those water supplies.

In due course it will be decided in ministerial (mindless, greedy, deceitful) circles that if the water has to be supplied, then logically the waste has to be taken away, and to encourage minimisation of that (to protect the environment and stop global warming of course), there will be a charge levied.

The next step will be that the government will announce the privatisation of water and sewage since it is required by an EU Directive on free competition. Major foreign companies will invest in the new utilities, and will take over charging according to the water meters that the people have paid for, but they will now be deemed to own them. The same companies owned by French or Spanish shareholders will also be able to charge for sewage services.

A Water Regulator will be employed (Gormless's cousin) and tasked with setting up a department (quango No. 1032) to ensure that, as in the UK, people are not overcharged. He will establish an operation that costs the taxpayer €10 m a year but agrees with everything the new water companies want to charge (after all, we are good Europeans, aren't we?).

Meanwhile, if I believe my friends in the UK, the pipes continue to leak..........

oppenheimer1

Of course we should pay for water, its very expensive to provide clean drinking water and to treat wastewater. I see the same auld ****e being trotted out here about Ireland having loads of rain and other such nonsense. All that water is in the wrong place and isn't drinkable.

The way charges should be introduced is important. There should be a minimal or no standing charge, and each person registered at each address should get a free allowance. Its only people that use the hose to wash their cars, keep the garden pond topped up, and fill their swimming pools should be hit. Currently there is no incentive to fix a broken pipe or tap, which is incredibly wasteful and costs us all

Overheal

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Of course we should pay for water, its very expensive to provide clean drinking water and to treat wastewater. I see the same auld ****e being trotted out here about Ireland having loads of rain and other such nonsense. All that water is in the wrong place and isn't drinkable.

someone gets it

The way charges should be introduced is important. There should be a minimal or no standing charge, and each person registered at each address should get a free allowance. Its only people that use the hose to wash their cars, keep the garden pond topped up, and fill their swimming pools should be hit. Currently there is no incentive to fix a broken pipe or tap, which is incredibly wasteful and costs us all

How do you differentiate between that water consumption and shower and bath or kitchen tap consumption without having meters at Every outlet in the home?

In Florida and other Southern states where the raw supply of water Is actually an issue, there are limits on what days you can water your lawn, but the entire Enforcement process is by Witness not by the Meter. That fine for disobeying the Rationing is quite severe, given the higher rate of Fires during drought - and if you where there for the months long fire storm in 1998 you wouldnt think twice about screwing people over so you could water the daffodils. Its typically neighborhood watch or patrol cars that blow the whistle.

Ireland however would need no such measure. It would make much more sense to do it by the household consumption. Typically by the 1k unit of litres/gallons.

Overheal

ART6 wrote: »

...

Aren't you talking about a Privatization, not Municipality?

I'm fairly certain what's being proposed is the Latter - Municipals are what the US has, and whatever other countries you can think of. I didnt find a neat and tidy wiki list.

smegmar

if this country goes to municipality, privatization is only a matter of time. Do you think the government would turn down private investment on an already fee paying service? not a hope. One leads to the other.

Everything that is a luxury I'm willing to pay tax on: car, alcohol, even planning permission on a house, but water is a necessity.
Water is a requirement of life.

How much will it cost to place a meter in every house in Ireland?
a lot less to just fix some leaks and build one water processing plant

there was a movie about something like this
http://www.220.ro/Dg0NRW8kB4/Flow-For-Love-Of-Water

Hyperupdate

No since I always had it for free in my life. Why should I pay for bottle water when the water out of the tap does a good job?

oppenheimer1

Overheal wrote: »

someone gets it
How do you differentiate between that water consumption and shower and bath or kitchen tap consumption without having meters at Every outlet in the home?

You wouldn't need a meter at every outlet. You could give each person an allowance which takes care of all reasonable needs such as washing cooking drinking. These are all things which it is reasonable to assume everyone needs. If that allowance is exceeded it would be clear the end user is using water for superfluous purposes like washing the car. Or has poor plumbing.

In either case the user should be punished for waste.

Overheal

smegmar wrote: »

if this country goes to municipality, privatization is only a matter of time. Do you think the government would turn down private investment on an already fee paying service? not a hope. One leads to the other.

I call bullsh!t. Its been Municipal for Decades or longer in the US. Not privatized.

If you care to provide some Real World examples and not simply Hyperbole, I'd be willing to consider the possibility.

Everything that is a luxury I'm willing to pay tax on: car, alcohol, even planning permission on a house, but water is a necessity.
Water is a requirement of life.

Nobody is stopping you from collecting rainwater and drinking it.

How much will it cost to place a meter in every house in Ireland?
a lot less to just fix some leaks and build one water processing plant

You don't even back up that claim with figures. Secondly, As I've said a few times now, why do you feel the solution is to Increase Capacity rather than curtail Demand?

alex73

Look, sooner or later we will have to pay, most countries where I lived we paid for water, but I think max 150 a year no more.

smegmar

alex73 wrote: »

Look, sooner or later we will have to pay, most countries where I lived we paid for water, but I think max 150 a year no more.

ONLY 150 a year!!? why that's nothing! thank god all my fears have been put aside. I'll just call my chauffeur and take the Bentley back home where I may bath in money....


Not all of us have 150 to spend on water, Here's some figures for you the U.N estimated it would cost 30Billion per year to give safe drinking water to everyone on the planet...We spent almost 100 Billion on bottled water in a period of 1 year.

There is no lack of water, it isn't running out. Earth is a closed system, water can't leave the surface. The only shortage is in cleaning and pumping stations which are relatively cheap although I can't get exact figures.


I can't understand why anyone would push for water charge, it makes no sense. yes it may help build some revenue but at a horrible cost and there are so many other ares that need to be investigated first. A water charge is a last resort

Overheal

Currently, there is no Human Right to Water.

Just want to point that out to the Life-Giving Propagandists.

ONLY 150 a year!!? why that's nothing! thank god all my fears have been put aside. I'll just call my chauffeur and take the Bentley back home where I may bath in money....

Didnt we have a thread before christmas polling people on their average night-out spendings on alcohol? I seem to recall the Mean figure being €50 in a Night, easy.

Im sure, Reginald Deeppocket, you will find the money from Somewhere....

Also smeg' do you have any Rationale for this statement yet:

if this country goes to municipality, privatization is only a matter of time. Do you think the government would turn down private investment on an already fee paying service? not a hope. One leads to the other.

dlofnep

Overheal wrote: »

Well you will always have the option to Bathe in the rivers and ponds. But I dont see them purifying themselves and making their way into your water heater all by themselves. Thats why we have Plumbing. Marvelous contraption. Costs money though...

Yeah, that's just what Ireland needs - more bills for people who can hardly get by as it is.

QuiteInterestin

Of course we should pay for our water, why wouldn't we? Food and heat are just as important to daily life yet no one reasonably expects their oil tanks to be magically filled or food to appear on their table, yet they expect clean water 'on tap'.

And for those complaining about the condition of their water and pipe network, you only get what you pay for, how can you expect a quality water system for free? Many people in rural ares already pay for their water through group water schemes. Some of these had already implemented sucessful metered schemes, but the meters fell into disuse/stopped being installed, following the planned introduction of free water. Now in these schemes, houses pay a certain amount while businesses/schools/farms would pay a higher amount, with the amount paid by each based on the bill received by the water scheme from the relevent county council (yes for those of you who have never paid for water, county coucils send out water bills to GWSs!!)

Also people have far more value for what they pay for then what they get for free. Can those who left their taps running during the recent cold spell for fear of them freezing honestly say they would do the same if they knew they were paying per litre? Unlikely, also they would be far quicker to fix/contact the relevent personnel regarding leaks, since it would be money out of their pockets!

matsy1

You should pay if it goes over a certain amount, that might make people think about how much they use!

FatherTed

Like Overheal, I live in the US and have to pay water charges. Not sure the rate but I usually pay about $120 each quarter with a family of 2 adults and 3 kids plus watering the lawn in the summer and topping up the swimming pool now and again. For me, it's just another bill I have to pay. Quality is just ok.