Should we pay for water ?

Evolute

I don't believe we should have to pay for the meters or for the installation the government wants to put them in they should pay for it.

Is it just me or does anyone else think that it is F***ING stupid that the government want people to pay for meters so they can pay more tax??????

That and your poll is missing the choice of yes we should pay for water but not for the meters.

The_Conductor

Whats with the 'The World does not revolve around Dublin' option?
At present in Ireland we loose 46% of our drinking water to leaking pipes. This rises to 59% in Cork and 57-58% in Leitrim and Roscommon.
We need to invest 13 billion in our water infrastructure over the next 6 years.
If you don't want to have your water metered and paid for by usage- you have to accept that you're just going to have to pay for it through some other sort of taxation.

The bulk of the revenues raised would presumably be spent in the places which loose most water- which are not Dublin (South Dublin- where most of the water rationing is at the moment- only looses around 20%). The current shortage is as a result of fools insisting on running taps in order to prevent pipes from freezing during the cold snap. Far from consuming water- as was requested- our national usage went up to almost 700m ltr a day- a vast amount, and far more than we are equipped to treat.

I hate paying taxes as much as the next person- but why should I subsidise the fools next door who use 6 times more water than I do?

wes

I already pay enough taxes as it is. Perhaps the government should use the money they already have more efficently, and not give billions away to help dodgy bankers and there mates.

freewheeler

what a surprise..the 'government' finds YET another way of screwing more money out of us...perhaps those who claim we live in a low-tax economy should wake up to all the indirect taxes we pay...ridiculous rates of VAT,PAYE,PRSI(for what?)fuel duty,car tax the list is endless! and the polls show that this shower of planks approval rating has actually INCREASED???? my faith in the Irish electorate decreases by the day...:(

kowloon

Knowing the gob$hites in charge they'll hire a load of new staff to administer the new system, monitor installation complete with their own IT department, in office councillor, and a subsidised canteen. Then they'll have two guys in a van to install all the meters in the country .

Not having a go at the public service in general, just the idiots at the top.

There's always the possibility of a flat rate water tax, everyone would have to pay it ragardless of usage, or connection to mains water.

ART6

kowloon wrote: »

Knowing the gob$hites in charge they'll hire a load of new staff to administer the new system, monitor installation complete with their own IT department, in office councillor, and a subsidised canteen. Then they'll have two guys in a van to install all the meters in the country .

They will probably set up Quango number 1022 to run the introduction, and Gormley will appoint one of his mates to run it on a salary of €300k a year plus unlimited expenses. A contract to install meters will be placed with a Romanian company that is only vaguely aware of where Ireland is. It's installers will not understand a word of English, and given the Irish propensity for naming every plot of land in Anglicised Irish instead of using post codes, they will have no idea how to find where they are supposed to put the meters. They will be issued with satnavs that only have maps for the Six Counties.

The cost of the exercise will be budgeted a €X millions and will turn out to cost €X billions. It will be planned to take two years but half the current population will be dead before every property is equipped. In the meantime, metering not being available, a flat charge will be introduced for every household irrespective of their usage. Gormley will insist that this causes people to be more conservative with their water demand. By the time all of the meters are installed they will be obselete and won't work anymore. They will then be removed and stored for twenty five years at a cost of €5 millions a year.

I wish I was joking, but I am afraid I might not be. The alternative of course is to continue as we are and pay for water supplies out of the general taxation. I can't see how metering and charging is going to guarantee upgrading and improvement of supplies when the current system doesn't. The cost is finite wherever the money comes from, and if it simply flows into the public purse along with all the other taxes, why should we expect it to be spent any differently? The excuse that most other countries in Europe impose water charges doesn't mean we have to slavishly follow, does it?

* Edit -- of course it means just that if there is a tax opportunity involved*

Joey the lips

ART6 wrote: »

They will probably set up Quango number 1022 . They will be issued with satnavs that only have maps for the Six Counties.

The excuse that most other countries in Europe impose water charges doesn't mean we have to slavishly follow, does it?

* Edit -- of course it means just that if there is a tax opportunity involved*

post of the day i reckon and scary because its true....

homerjay2005

of course people are going to vote now here when it means them paying for something. our water supply is a joke, outdated and in serious need of upgrading. if us paying for it means we never again have a repeat of last few weeks farcical events, then i am all for paying for it. the amount of wastage is unbelieveable and it would cop people on once they started getting bills for it.

i would structure it in such a way that maybe everybody had an allowance and once they went over that, they paid. a huge amount of water, which costs alot to treat, goes on flushing toilets. i would be all in favour of the proposal to have 2 water supplies for new housing estates in the future where one is the treated water for drinking/washing etc and the 2nd is untreated rain water gathered in each individual house for toilet flushing only.

Min

Most people in the countryside pay for their own water via having their own private well for their water supply - set up costs, maintenance, electric bills...

I don't think the reservoirs for public water supplies would be as low if people had to pay for keeping their taps running.

amacachi

There should be no water charges, I want it for free, I want everything for free. I want new things and I want things repaired but I don't want to pay for it.

toiletduck

Do the Greens have any policies which don't involve the general public having to bend over and 'take one for the environment'?

stovelid

The Irish paradox: demand better services; demand lower taxes.

ART6

homerjay2005 wrote: »

o
i would structure it in such a way that maybe everybody had an allowance and once they went over that, they paid. a huge amount of water, which costs alot to treat, goes on flushing toilets. i would be all in favour of the proposal to have 2 water supplies for new housing estates in the future where one is the treated water for drinking/washing etc and the 2nd is untreated rain water gathered in each individual house for toilet flushing only.

I tried that when we last had our water supply turned off (it happens a lot where I live). The amount of muck in it washed off the roof was unbelievable and it left a layer of silt in the toilet bowl as well as staining everything it touched. Then there is the problem that if you live in a bungalow, as many Irish people do, it's impossible to place a collecting tank at a high enough level to provide sufficient head of water to flush a toilet. The alternative would be to fit a pump, but that would need electricity to run it (a distinct environmental improvement) and a filter before the pump to keep the muck out.

If you go on posting suggestions like that I see a very real danger that Gormless will read it. Then the next thing we know there will be a law that requires us all to disconnect our toilets from the mains and install a rain water tank (with a meter to discourage us from using too much rain). Pay 21% VAT on the tank, pump, and fittings, and a carbon tax on the elctricity the pump uses. Stop giving that goon ideas:D

Vegeta

What's your rate of VAT and Income Tax?

Overheal wrote: »

I already pay ~$30/mo 360/yr + any overage.

Really, really not the end of the world. Its not like a TV license or something where RTE could just pay for its damn self. Water facilities get money by getting paid. Not from running Commercials. And that dont have to pay whatever slag is hosting a late night talk show.

Almost all service providers in the world charge tariffs to recover part of their costs. According to estimates by the World Bank the average (mean) global water tariff is US$ 0.53 per cubic meter. In developed countries the average tariff is US$ 1.04, while it is only U$ 0.11 in the poorest developing countries. The lowest tariffs in developing countries are found in South Asia (mean of US$ 0.09/m3), while the highest are found in Latin America (US$ 0.41/m3).[3] Few utilities do recover all their costs. According to the same World Bank study only 30% of utilities globally, and only 50% of utilities in developed countries, generate sufficient revenue to cover operation, maintenance and partial capital costs.

Either way you swing it youre already paying for your water. This way however, it wont be a stealth tax.

And considering the number of outages and outbreaks in the Midwest, its clear that you either need a New, High Capacity water treatment system to meet your insatiable demand for the wet stuff [for Free no less] (Recently constructed one, afaik) OR you COULD have just imposed Metering, and Water consumption in the Midwest PROBABLY wouldve fallen back down to Levels that the Existing Treatment Facilities could have tolerated.

edit: These are my monthly rates, (PDF)

So im paying, default, about $31 for 2000 Gallons per month and Sewage Expense. This is plenty. after that its a mere $1.50 for each additional 1000 gallons or part of. As I said: Hardly outrageous. Your Pats' only beef is that - being new to the game - you need to pay for a Meter up front Now. Whereas in just about any other Developed country, these programs have been around for decades or longer and the meters are simply an expense on constructing a new home.

Morlar

Vegeta wrote: »

What's your rate of VAT and Income Tax?

VAT in the states is 6% sales tax in some states as opposed to our 21.5%

The water charges also wont be $30 per month here - thats for sure.

Already the independent puts it @ €400 per year, upwards. Not including the meters outlay & installation.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/homes-face-annual-euro400-water-charge-in-meter-plan-2031340.html

HOUSEHOLDERS face the prospect of steadily increasing water charges once a metering system is introduced.

The Department of Finance has already proposed an interim charge of €175 per annum, which would yield €200m for the Government.

But Environment Minister John Gormley yesterday raised the possibility that the final bill for householders could be substantially higher, after he revealed he ultimately hopes to raise €1bn.

A Department of Finance briefing document prepared for An Bord Snip last summer said a flat-rate charge of €175 per house would bring in €200m even before metering starts.

But a spokesman for Mr Gormley last night stressed that the €1bn was an ultimate aim and would not be gathered from the beginning of the scheme.

Fianna Fail and the Green Party have agreed to bring in water charges and Mr Gormley favours giving houses an allocation of free water and then charging if they exceed it.

His spokesman said the €1bn would be taken from both commercial and residential water metering, ruling out the prospect of a €900-a-year charge for householders.

It is estimated that each home could end up being billed between €300 and €400 a year in water charges.

In the next few weeks, Mr Gormley will present a memo to the Government on the proposed metering of 1.2 million homes, which is due to begin next year. But officials say this memo will primarily deal with metering and would not go into detail on the amount of money householders may have to pay.

It is hoped the roll-out will begin next year to meet the full cost of providing treated, clean drinking water to every home.

Mr Gormley yesterday announced €300m in funding to upgrade the country's water supplies over the next three years.

He said the record repair bill would see burst pipes and old mains systems replaced as some regions were losing half of their water supply through leaks. The problem is particularly serious in areas such as Roscommon, where 58.6pc of water is lost.

Mr Gormley said the problem of water loss was unacceptable and had to be addressed. He described the decision to scrap water charges in 1997 as "nonsensical and pretty spineless".

He said water metering was essential to create a fair system that would bring in significant water savings.

Savings

The Department of the Environment said average savings of 16pc per household could be achieved after meters have been installed.

Meanwhile, parts of Dublin and Clare are still without normal supplies after the big freeze damaged ageing water pipes.

"We are playing a huge game of catch-up with our water infrastructure, following decades of under-investment," Mr Gormley said.

The €300m allocated for repairs is not new money but has been redirected from elsewhere in the Department of Environment budget to ease pressure on the supply network.

"The difficulties experienced by thousands of householders across the country show clearly there are still huge issues with our water infrastructure and consumption of water," Mr Gormley said.

"Our approach to drinking water in Ireland has been unsustainable, and we must change that approach."

Niall Keane

In Germany less flushing has meant drains taking the concentrated piss and the concrete sewers not lasting as long = cost to replace and traffic disruption. Also it has meant a world of sh!t for every bend in drainage systems not designed with sufficient slope to cope with less water flow to carry the crap elsewhere!

What's that Misfits song...... GREEN HELL!

mp22

rates by another name

The_Conductor

mp22 wrote: »

rates by another name

Nah- they're bringing them back too....... :mad::mad::mad:

galah

also in Germany, not only will you pay for drinking water and waste water, you also (at least in my parents' town), pay for the water that is absorbed by the ground, per square metre. (as in, you pay a flat fee per m2 of your unsealed property, because the rain water that comes down on it has to be transported using council drainage systems.)

Now THAT's what I call crazy. Would work superbly here, as well, what with all the rain.


I'm all for water charges, seeing the unbelievable waste in this country. But only if the water then supplied is actually clean, free of contaminants (crypto or lead poisoning, anyone?) and drinkable.

But as other posters have already pointed out, this laudable approach will be detsroyed by the government and just used as another vehicle to extort money out of tax payers to no good effect. Who here really thinks they'd use the money raised to fix the pipes? Anyone? Thought so.

Overheal

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote: »

Right, because the whole system has been run by unpaid volunteers working by candle-light who receive no money what so ever from our taxes.

Oh sorry I should have paraphrased "Free"

You sure are paying for it in your taxes but that solution has clearly been ineffective, evident from your water and sewage system being on the verge of complete failure. Thats hardly a Hyperbole either.

You know who's water systems Are not Failing? First World countries with metered water programs..

also in Germany, not only will you pay for drinking water and waste water, you also (at least in my parents' town), pay for the water that is absorbed by the ground, per square metre. (as in, you pay a flat fee per m2 of your unsealed property, because the rain water that comes down on it has to be transported using council drainage systems.)

Thats interesting. I've heard of other systems where the exact opposite is true: You pay per m^2 of your impermeable land, because it in theory surface runoff contributes to soil erosion.

Are you sure its not Impermeable? Usually you expect groundwater in meadows etc. not to enter the drainage system at all. So the above statement doesnt make much sense.

I can't see how metering and charging is going to guarantee upgrading and improvement of supplies when the current system doesn't.

I addressed those points several posts earlier. I'd strongly wager within 6 months your water consumption would drop down to levels the current facilities can actually support and purify. That plus the money generated if it doesnt go into someones pocket would generate the money for these Budget-busting projects like new treatment facilities that Clare recently got. The difference being the money will come from metering and not 'Borrowed' from other public projects like roads and education. As it currently is, when you think about it, as part of the Annual Budget.

Morlar wrote:

VAT in the states is 6% sales tax in some states as opposed to our 21.5%

Thats a lie: We dont have Value Added Tax. We have Sales Tax. VAT while handy in the grocery store when you're figuring pocket change seriously covers up how much you're being taxed on items.

For the record though I pay a SC sales tax of 6% and a Dorchester County tax of 1% additional.

Morlar wrote:

HOUSEHOLDERS face the prospect of steadily increasing water charges once a metering system is introduced.

Shock tactics tbh. Again pointing back on meself, google the Commissioners of Public Works summerville: Our water rates were raised $4 a month in 2008: Which made it the first rate increase in 14 years.

But you're probably right, you'll be screwed for the next 10 years because you as a Country have allowed the infrastructure to fall apart since metering was repealed. Now you'll have to play catchup to foot the repair bill. Shucks.

Funny because I wrote the above before reading the article Morlar posted, and thats exactly what Gormley is saying,

"He said the record repair bill would see burst pipes and old mains systems replaced as some regions were losing half of their water supply through leaks. The problem is particularly serious in areas such as Roscommon, where 58.6pc of water is lost.

Mr Gormley said the problem of water loss was unacceptable and had to be addressed. He described the decision to scrap water charges in 1997 as "nonsensical and pretty spineless".

He said water metering was essential to create a fair system that would bring in significant water savings.

"We are playing a huge game of catch-up with our water infrastructure, following decades of under-investment," Mr Gormley said.

The €300m allocated for repairs is not new money but has been redirected from elsewhere in the Department of Environment budget to ease pressure on the supply network.

"The difficulties experienced by thousands of householders across the country show clearly there are still huge issues with our water infrastructure and consumption of water," Mr Gormley said.

"Our approach to drinking water in Ireland has been unsustainable, and we must change that approach." "

Forget for a moment its Gormley: is what he is saying Wrong? Do you think your current system is Sustainable?

Tribesmen7

Paying for it wouldn't be so bad it it was actually drinkable.

Overheal

Vegeta wrote: »

What's your rate of VAT and Income Tax?

Is the implication in that question that paying 21% VAT is somehow acceptable for the services you've received?

I haven't lived here long enough to really tally my entire cost of living. Water, Sewage, Road Taxes, Property Taxes. It could very well top your 21%. But the trick is things more or less run a lot smoother.

Joey the lips wrote: »

You got to love the greens and the govt. The govt promised no new taxes "Oh but i didnt do it sir it was him, i just held his hand"

I reckon we should lump all our tax together in one pot that way the govt can decide what to give us instead of just slowly takeing it away.

I know this seems to be an anti dublin thing but does all the lovely students and workers from outside the pale understand that this just gets added onto their rent.

Thats pretty much what goes on right now. They tax you through the nose on your income and spit it out in an Annual Budget right around Christmas Time when everybody's stressed out about money.

I can see why youre all stressed out half the time. Horrible way to live.

Morlar

Overheal wrote: »

Road Taxes, Property Taxes. It could very well top your 21%.

We pay those in addition to VAT as well as various current and future levies and so on. What state are you in ? Your sales tax rate should not be too difficult to figure out.

I am pretty sure that motor tax in Ireland is a multiple of your road tax. Also it doesnt go towards the roads.

bladespin

I'm not completely against paying for our water supply but there are a few conditions I would want met before they start charging (taxing) for it:

The supply must be of saleable quality, if the quality drops below the EU standard for drinking water (not that high TBH) the end user should be entitled to compensation for hardship.

The supply must be constant, if cut-offs are required then there should be compensation (covered this above also).

Meters would have to be calibrated regularly and through an independant metrology lab.

M5

Vegeta wrote: »

We already pay for water through taxes

Lower my tax rate and I'll pay by usage no problemo.

I don't like paying for things twice.

Well said!

starbelgrade

Niall Keane wrote: »

In Germany less flushing has meant drains taking the concentrated piss

Overheal

Morlar wrote: »

We pay those in addition to VAT as well as various current and future levies and so on. What state are you in ? Your sales tax rate should not be too difficult to figure out.

I am pretty sure that motor tax in Ireland is a multiple of your road tax. Also it doesnt go towards the roads.

I can give you a scan of my road tax bill by tomorrow morning. 90% of mine goes to local Education.

I've posted my tax in an above post that I went to town on.

Michael B

No we shouldn't, there's more rain in this country than any other! But of course it will come in, any excuse to fleece money off us.

Overheal

bladespin wrote: »

I'm not completely against paying for our water supply but there are a few conditions I would want met before they start charging (taxing) for it:

The supply must be of saleable quality, if the quality drops below the EU standard for drinking water (not that high TBH) the end user should be entitled to compensation for hardship.

The supply must be constant, if cut-offs are required then there should be compensation (covered this above also).

Meters would have to be calibrated regularly and through an independant metrology lab.

Then you have a paradox: because the money needed to get the System back up to that state will have to come from somewhere. According to Gormley its being siphoned currently from elsewhere in the Dept of Energy Budget. Who is to say next year the DoE wont get a bigger budget in the Annual Budget for 2011? Where will that money come from? Roads, Healthcare, Education, Civil Services? The way your budget and taxation is currently setup, thats what it will eventually boil down to - Money that was going to be earmarked for something else will end up to the DoE.

In addition to that, and Ive said it a few times now, is metering will slash water supply Demand, reduce the strain on Supply, and I think you'll find that in turn will help expedite the return of quality drinking water. Mind you its not just for drinking, but I see your point.

Vegeta

Overheal wrote: »

Is the implication in that question that paying 21% VAT is somehow acceptable for the services you've received?

I haven't lived here long enough to really tally my entire cost of living. Water, Sewage, Road Taxes, Property Taxes. It could very well top your 21%. But the trick is things more or less run a lot smoother.

No implication at all.

I know VAT (apologies I meant sales tax but it's the closest thing we have to VAT I have experience of) is low in America (depending on state) but what is income tax charged at. I'm finding it hard to get a straight answer on that from a google search.

We pay 21% VAT on most things and income is taxed as following. The first €36,400 @ 20% and any more than that is taxed at @ 41%. There's an income levy of 1.67% for earnings up to 75k and PRSI of 6.33%. I think. There is a tax credit system where Gross Tax less Tax Credits = Tax Payable for a single person like me I think it may be 5k per annum.

Last year and projected for this year the VAT and Income tax make up like 66% of the 32-33 billion of government receipts.

So the proposed 1 billion water charges as a percentage of the 23 billion in VAT and Income Tax is ~4.5%. That's a large figure.

If between VAT and Income Tax I am given back this 4.5% I will pay water rates no problem.