Should we pay for water ?

smegmar

Overheal wrote: »

Currently, there is no Human Right to Water.

That's where I see the problem.
Also there is article 32 being put through to make this a human right, but it hasn't got much chance against all those bottled water companies that are making a bloody fortune from it

Overheal wrote: »

Didnt we have a thread before christmas polling people on their average night-out spendings on alcohol? I seem to recall the Mean figure being €50 in a Night, easy.

And well done to those few who can be so frivolous. Again not all of us can. please think about everyone that might be affected not just yourself.

Overheal wrote: »

Also smeg' do you have any Rationale for this statement yet:

Yea it's common sense. Unfortunately Common Sense so rare these days it's almost a goddam super power. I hope common sense man will fly in and save us all from this situation.
The government are considering this idea because they desperately need to raise revenue, do you think they'd say no to private investment after that? Not a hope.

I don't know anyone that is wasting water because it's funny, most people use what the need and no more. All those that did leave their taps running over night saved alot more water by that then letting their pipes freeze and burst else where.

Overheal

You have yet - and I dare say cannot - provide any Case Evidence of a Municipal Water system being Privatized outside of the UK. So you'll forgive me if I call it sensationalized rubbish to claim that Privatization is "an Inevitability"

Its Not.

Also there is article 32 being put through to make this a human right, but it hasn't got much chance against all those bottled water companies that are making a bloody fortune from it

The Right to Education has done nothing to Stop private schools from operating.

smegmar

Overheal wrote: »

You have yet - and I dare say cannot - provide any Case Evidence of a Municipal Water system being Privatized outside of the UK.

The Right to Education has done nothing to Stop private schools from operating.

To clarify, I have no problem with private water bottling companies, sometimes you just want water. They may purify it high above the standard for human consumption, hell they can even add flavor, and if that's your thing go and enjoy it. But water to the minimum level of safety and purity is our right. It's what we pay taxes for. We a citizens of a civilized country agree that it is what we do, and any threat to that should be shown as savagery and greed at it's utmost.

At present 90% of world water supplies are Public owned and operated so it is difficult to find examples of privatization and it's follies but in each actual case there have been failures. Here are the few I can find

As example how about "The Cochabamba protests of 2000, also known as the "Cochabamba Water Wars", which were a series of protests that took place in Cochabamba, Bolivia's third largest city, between January and April 2000, happened because of the privatization of the municipal water supply."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cochabamba_protests_of_2000

And in England our close neighbor
see this from BBC's watchdog: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/watchdog/utilities/2009/02/

Overheal

smegmar wrote: »

To clarify, I have no problem with private water bottling companies, sometimes you just want water. They may purify it high above the standard for human consumption, hell they can even add flavor, and if that's your thing go and enjoy it.

Aquafina owned by the coca cola company bottles and sells Municipal Tap Water.

And plenty of bottled brands dont do any additional treatment of the water either.

Perfectly Legal too.

But water to the minimum level of safety and purity is our right.

No, it is Not.

It's what we pay taxes for.

See, thats one of Ireland's problems, among many. All your tax is pooled into Fund X, to serve projects ABC and D. Now that the Water System, E, needs a lot of additional work and upkeep, its ABC and D that will lose out. Those are all of Ireland's other projects, like Roads, Civil Services such as An Post an AGS, and Health Care.

Heres an extra thought too: Postal Services? None of them that Im aware of operate at anything beyond the break-even point, and many of them in the Red. You still end up funding the Postal Service through your taxes, but you never wonder why you're being asked to pay for Postage [How ****ing Dare They!!1!1!One!!Eleventy!]

I dont think I'm going to go out and cause a ****storm though because they want 42c every time I want to post a cheque though. Thats basically the same order of magnitude as the Water Metering. In other words: Not really as big a deal as you think it is.

We a citizens of a civilized country agree that it is what we do, and any threat to that should be shown as savagery and greed at it's utmost.

Water Terrorists? You lost me.

At present 90% of world water supplies are Public owned and operated so it is difficult to find examples of privatization and it's follies but in each actual case there have been failures. Here are the few I can find

That's great but thats not what was asked or claimed. You said Municipality Inevitably Leads to Privatization. Of 90% of the World's Public/Municipal Water supplies, you found Two (2) countries that ended up in Privatization - both with failure, but that wasn't the point I was trying to make. You've helped establish There is No Inevitability to Privatization. Thank You.

smegmar

Ugh this is going to be a long night arguing with you.....

Overheal wrote: »

Aquafina owned by the coca cola company bottles and sells Municipal Tap Water.

And plenty of bottled brands dont do any additional treatment of the water either.

Perfectly Legal too.

yeap it is I never said it wasn't. Everyone who buys tap water at a price is therefore a fool.

Overheal wrote: »

No, it is Not.

Again this is the main disagreement we have. I believe in a right to water, you do not.

Overheal wrote: »

See, thats one of Ireland's problems, among many. All your tax is pooled into Fund X, to serve projects ABC and D. Now that the Water System, E, needs a lot of additional work and upkeep, its ABC and D that will lose out. Those are all of Ireland's other projects, like Roads, Civil Services such as An Post an AGS, and Health Care.

yes and we do have problems and we do need to raise money, but I would ask that some services, like water, be kept as last resort to cost cutting measures. There is still plenty of fat to be cut from other area before water should be touched.

Overheal wrote: »

Heres an extra thought too: Postal Services? None of them that Im aware of operate at anything beyond the break-even point, and many of them in the Red. You still end up funding the Postal Service through your taxes, but you never wonder why you're being asked to pay for Postage [How ****ing Dare They!!1!1!One!!Eleventy!]

The postal service is not a necessity, it should be standard if we have the money but I will accept it's loss in times of hardship. Water however is a necessity. Regardless of all other factors every human being on this planet requires at least 1 litre of drinking water per day.

Overheal wrote: »

Water Terrorists? You lost me.

If we deny something as basic as water, we have taken a huge step back as a society. It is something we should prevent as fervently as our right as a nation.

Overheal wrote: »

That's great but thats not what was asked or claimed. You said Municipality Inevitably Leads to Privatization. Of 90% of the World's Public/Municipal Water supplies, you found Two (2) countries that ended up in Privatization - both with failure, but that wasn't the point I was trying to make. You've helped establish There is No Inevitability to Privatization. Thank You.

Of the two previously municipal water systems both had moved privatization, and at 2 of 2 examples is 100% or "inevitability"

lionela

Mister Tickle wrote: »

would you pay for a milkshake from Mcdonalds if 45% of the milk shake was leaking out from the bottom of the cup?? No....but the council want you should pay for water even after admitting that 45% of the water leaks out through their underground pipework. laughable really. paying for water in this country.

If it becomes a fact that we will pay for water ..and that we will consume same... then I would like a choice as to whether I want Fluoride in it.
I am of the opinion that the addition of this "poison" is an unnesesary element in the water supply. Perhaps there could be 2 choices of water. Fluoridated or non-Fluoridated... just like Milk ...Full or slimline

Overheal

smegmar wrote: »

Ugh this is going to be a long night arguing with you.....

Arguing? This is a Debate. Not a Fight. And I don't have any animosity toward you or anything of the sort.

Again this is the main disagreement we have. I believe in a right to water, you do not.

You've put words in my mouth: It is a Fact that there is No Legally Defined Human Right to Water.

yes and we do have problems and we do need to raise money, but I would ask that some services, like water, be kept as last resort to cost cutting measures. There is still plenty of fat to be cut from other area before water should be touched.

The Water System of Ireland is in Crisis Now. How many people do you think will be willing to wait around a few years while the Government cleans up Everything Else and leaves "Essential" "Life Giving" "Human Right" water, till Dead Last on its list of priorities?

The postal service is not a necessity, it should be standard if we have the money but I will accept it's loss in times of hardship. Water however is a necessity. Regardless of all other factors every human being on this planet requires at least 1 litre of drinking water per day.

Would you be willing to say the same thing of Light and Heat? Arguably Heat is essential to Winter Survivability in the Irish Climate. Should your Taxes pay for your Oil?

The point Im getting at is you get Almost Nothing Else for Free. Health Care, is the only thing that springs to mind. Again though, with the theme being an Extremely Overtaxed/Overburdened Facility (Hospitals), the example certainly fits right in. Name One Thing you currently get for Free in the Republic of Ireland that Isn't falling apart at the seams.

If we deny something as basic as water, we have taken a huge step back as a society. It is something we should prevent as fervently as our right as a nation.

Nobody is Denying you Water though. If you were stranded in the wilderness and dying of thirst in Ireland would your family sue the govt for not having a Tap out there or would everybody call you an eejit for not being able to find water in the Irish Countryside?

Can you begin to see why there has been such a heated debate in the last year over the initiative to make Health Care a Universal Human Right? The Desire to do Good, and Practically, Horribly Collide.

Of the two previously municipal water systems both had moved privatization, and at 2 of 2 examples is 100% or "inevitability"

No, thats >1% Inevitability. 2 Countries out of 195.

lionela wrote: »

If it becomes a fact that we will pay for water ..and that we will consume same... then I would like a choice as to whether I want Fluoride in it.
I am of the opinion that the addition of this "poison" is an unnesesary element in the water supply. Perhaps there could be 2 choices of water. Fluoridated or non-Fluoridated... just like Milk ...Full or slimline

Its a strong point of contention even in the United States. Though the discussion hasn't flared up for a few years now and it varies by area. I remember it getting lots of Press in Volusia County FL some 5 years ago. But im sure its always getting talked about somewhere.

In truth though I still use the Fridge Filter. But it helps that its right next to the sink. Tap is drinkable and safe - just not delicious And the die-hard germaphobes can always splash out on the under-sink 4-stage reverse osmosis systems. Crazy bastards.

+1 though. Its worth discussing at the National Level for Ireland.

sdanseo

Yes, we should pay for water, but not for the installation of the equipment required to meter it.

Why should we pay? Simple. To stope a monority of selfish bastards hogging all the water for themselves by leaving the taps running all night to prevent freezing, hence our latest shortage (ironically in winter when there's plenty of rain about).

A token charge that would not cripple anyone would do, if left on all night at least it would be enough to discourage the idiots in society.

smegmar

Leaving the taps on at night during freezing conditions saves water. Burst pipes cause a lot of problems and can leak for sometime before they are identified and fixed. If there is a charge on water many people will fear the cost of doing this and leave taps off causing more problems and cost then the small amount pump water currently.

As said by overheal there is no legal right to clean water, but there should be. If there is a fee many people will attempt to take free water from rivers and lakes when they can. This water is untreated and can lead to waterborne infections rising dramatically.

There is programs in place to ensure the elderly have free heating during the winter months, and this is a necessity for many of them. It spares many from arthritis and even death. This is what I want my taxes to pay for. The same goes with water, we must spare those who cannot afford water bills from using un-health alternatives. There are people in Irish society, decent good hardworking people that struggle to get by as it is, a water charge and cost of installing a meter is far beyond them. Even in our darkest hour I would never compromise the health of anyone from the sake of money, and this water charge will do just that.

The water system isn't in crisis, the vast majority of people in Ireland can turn a tap and receive water of a minimum drinking standard.

The_Conductor

smegmar wrote: »

Leaving the taps on at night during freezing conditions saves water. Burst pipes cause a lot of problems and can leak for sometime before they are identified and fixed. If there is a charge on water many people will fear the cost of doing this and leave taps off causing more problems and cost then the small amount pump water currently.

The burst pipes are almost unilaterly residential pipes and pipes installed by developers to service residential units- not pipes installed an maintained by councils. Leaving taps running during freezing conditions may save burst domestic pipes- but it certainly does not save water. Inspecting your domestic pipes, insulating them, and ensuring your exterior pipes (and you are responsible for pipes on your property remember) are at least 8 inches below the surface- or properly insulated- is the issue.

Suggesting people should run their taps- is abdicating responsibility for your own property- and putting the onus on the your neighbours, your locality and your council- to take care of you- because you couldn't be arsed making sure your pipes are insulated (or in a vacant property- running heat at a low level to ensure pipes don't freeze etc)

smegmar wrote: »

As said by overheal there is no legal right to clean water, but there should be. If there is a fee many people will attempt to take free water from rivers and lakes when they can. This water is untreated and can lead to waterborne infections rising dramatically.

Wrong. I'm not sure if either you or Overheal have ever heard of the EU Drinking Water Directive. It specifies minimum standards for drinking water. The Commission has also taken legal action against Ireland over its failure to ensure a safe supply of drinking water to all its citizens (most recently in May 2008- but ongoing).

smegmar wrote: »

There is programs in place to ensure the elderly have free heating during the winter months, and this is a necessity for many of them. It spares many from arthritis and even death. This is what I want my taxes to pay for. The same goes with water, we must spare those who cannot afford water bills from using un-health alternatives. There are people in Irish society, decent good hardworking people that struggle to get by as it is, a water charge and cost of installing a meter is far beyond them. Even in our darkest hour I would never compromise the health of anyone from the sake of money, and this water charge will do just that.

There are heating allowances for the elderly, the infirm and certain categories of social welfare recipients. Once you exhaust your allowance (as happened in many cases during the big freeze)- there are also legal provisions to delay cutting off supplies of electricity and gas for a 3 month period- to allow people to clear their accumulated bills. Once the 3 month moratorium on cutoffs expires- its expected there will be significant numbers of people cut off.

smegmar wrote: »

The water system isn't in crisis, the vast majority of people in Ireland can turn a tap and receive water of a minimum drinking standard.

Not according to the EU Commission- which has 4 cases ongoing against the Irish government- and if my memory serves me right- a compulsary boil notice would be indicative that drinking water does not meet minimum standards (as is currently the case in several locations around the country).

Vegeta

Overheal I'm sorry but you're having a laugh if you think we should pay an extra billion a year for water.

You pay less than half our VAT/Sales Tax and probably about 5% less income tax.

We are paying for water. A lot of people have posted now saying stupid sh1te like "Water isn't free, it costs money to process, so it doesn't matter how much of it there is etc etc ". Are they dumb enough to think it's being processed for free now? Or is the water fairy giving the government some credit?

Why was this not paid for in the unprecedented years of growth and surplus? Oh that's right this government cant actually manage the country, at all. So if the leaks and crap water (literally) were not fixed in times of plenty, why are they trying to do it now when the country is in such a bad state. How about shelving it for 5 years for a time when we can afford it.

Also people keep stating that we want better services but are not willing to pay for them. Have they forgotten, that compared to other countries we overpay for a lot of services we already have.?

As I said I have no problem paying for metering if my tax is lowered accordingly. I don't trust the government to do that though. The thought of having to give them yet another 3.5-4.5% of my taxable income makes me depressed. IF we got a world class system at a fair price that'd be one thing, but we wont.

paddydriver

genericguy wrote: »

i think we should, but i'd rather spend the money on getting john gormley beaten to death with a baby seal.

:D:D:D

smegmar

Wasn't the boiling water directive a safety thing for areas that may have been affected by cryptosporidium? Either way it's more so the problem with aging rural piping networks rather then treatment facilities or availability of water. The cost of renewing this network, I would imaging, is considerably less then fitting a meter to every house in Ireland.

I did in earlier post mention a provision of drinking water was an article as part of the international charter of human rights. I didn't know it's status was confirmed. Thanks for clarifying that Smc

And I do of course encourage everyone to care for their property and all piping installation leading to and from their house.

Dr_Teeth

It's our water system and we already pay for it through our taxes. If there has been under-investment, then more money should be allocated. If there isn't enough money to allocate, then taxes should be raised or lower priority expenses should be reduced, or the government should take out a loan to cover the investment. I'd sure as hell prefer the government to go into debt to invest in clean water than ****ing Anglo Irish Bank!

I am not in favour of metering or separate water charges. We do not need yet another government bureaucracy, yet another building stuffed full of civil servants, yet another budget for stupid adverts ("We've heard the excuses and none of them work! Pay your water bill!"), yet another bill through the letter box, yet another database, yet another set of laws to punish non-payers, yet another raft of regulations to exempt people on the dole, single mothers, travellers, pensioners and so on. Enough!

hooradiation

Vegeta wrote: »

Why was this not paid for in the unprecedented years of growth and surplus? Oh that's right this government cant actually manage the country, at all. So if the leaks and crap water (literally) were not fixed in times of plenty, why are they trying to do it now when the country is in such a bad state. How about shelving it for 5 years for a time when we can afford it.

Yeah, because the degradation of the infrastructure is just going to hang about and not occur for five or so years out of respect for state of the economy.

Jesus, such fucking whining.

Vegeta

hooradiation wrote: »

Yeah, because the degradation of the infrastructure is just going to hang about and not occur for five or so years out of respect for state of the economy.

Jesus, such fucking whining.

They're already spending 300 million on the leaks over the next 3 years so the money is already allocated for the infrastructure.

hooradiation

Vegeta wrote: »

They're already spending 300 million on the leaks over the next 3 years so the money is already allocated for the infrastructure.

This just in - things constantly degrade over time. More on this shocking revelation at 11.

All of these excuses are the same short sighted thinking people on this very forum berate the government for doing, but in a shocking twist it's not total hypocrisy for the same talking heads to adopt the same approach when it suits them.

JeWalker

And why do people think there is a water shortage?

projectmayhem

The current problems are an inherent ineptitude within the councils of Ireland. For well over a decade we've lost around 40% of all water before it reaches houses. This is nothing to do with the people - and we should never foot the bill for this. Infrastructure is paid for when development on buildings go on - builders and contractors who do not follow regulations should be forced to pay for re-laying of pipes and fixing of mains. Not the residents.

Vegeta

hooradiation wrote: »

This just in - things constantly degrade over time. More on this shocking revelation at 11.

All of these excuses are the same short sighted thinking people on this very forum berate the government for doing, but in a shocking twist it's not total hypocrisy for the same talking heads to adopt the same approach when it suits them.

Are you going to make any actual points or counter points put forward by others?

mikom

hooradiation wrote: »

This just in - things constantly degrade over time.

This thread being one of them.

smegmar

well said Mikoms ghost.

and Dr.Teeth nailed it very well, with more bureaucracy and cost in the metering system then any amount to actually fix the problems we have now. In any case it is the desperate clawings of a government trying o save itself from the problems it has created.

RobbieTheRobber

JeWalker wrote: »

And why do people think there is a water shortage?

I reckon the water had enough of the political scandals, high unemployment and crappy threads on boards.ie about polish women v's irish women so it emigrated.

Morlar

JeWalker wrote: »

And why do people think there is a water shortage?

I don't know. I know that when the water reaches a certain level it is cut off or restricted to prevent it going any lower, so I would be curious if they have reduced the minimum level that triggers this response.

I have still not seen any data to suggest that this is caused by constant use throughout the night ('people leaving their taps on overnight'), which is the reason being given(along with frozen pipes underground) for the shortage & also a reason given why we need to start charging.

mirror mirror

when building our home we got a well bored because after speaking to our neighbours along the road they were not happy with water from the mains.low pressure,not very nice to drink ...we spent 2500 euro getting well bored and pump installed.so how do you think the water rates would be implemented in our case .im sure there are many more people who have done likewise,

ScumLord

JeWalker wrote: »

And why do people think there is a water shortage?

Because the TV says so.

Overheal

smegmar wrote: »

If there is a fee many people will attempt to take free water from rivers and lakes when they can. This water is untreated and can lead to waterborne infections rising dramatically.

I'm absolutely certain the volume of people willing to go to this extreme would be in the low dozens or hundreds at most. And the die hards that stick to it would perform their own purification at home. See reverse osmosis filtration

Its not like youre being charged something unaffordable. I get 1000 gallons for a buck fifty. Im not going to go drink river water to save 1/1000th of $1.50

The water system isn't in crisis, the vast majority of people in Ireland can turn a tap and receive water of a minimum drinking standard.

In fairness its been in crisis for years. Ask anybody who has lived in the Midwest.

/more later. @ work.

Morlar

Overheal wrote: »

I get 1000 gallons for a buck fifty. Im not going to go drink river water to save 1/1000th of $1.50

As has been mentioned previously this is not the estimate for Ireland, in the link I posted earlier they are looking at an UNKNOWN cost for the meter installation and maintenance and an average family are expected to pay €400 per year.

That is expected to rise.

I would not be surprised if americans used more water than Irish people, considering things like pools and water sprinklers. So we will most likely pay a LOT more for a lot less. Your comparison of 'one buck 50' for 1000 gallons have no meaning in this thread as far as I can see.

Overheal

Morlar wrote:

As has been mentioned previously this is not the estimate for Ireland, in the link I posted earlier they are looking at an UNKNOWN cost for the meter installation and maintenance and an average family are expected to pay €400 per year.

That is expected to rise.

Whom's data is projecting the upward trend of cost?

Would you not accept that in the Long Term (10, 20, or even 30 years) Having an Established water system is more beneficial than the short term expenses of having to pay for your country's negligence over the last 15 years? There again you have an example of short term gains screwing you over in the long run. Welcome to 2010.

smcarrick wrote:

Suggesting people should run their taps- is abdicating responsibility for your own property- and putting the onus on the your neighbours, your locality and your council- to take care of you- because you couldn't be arsed making sure your pipes are insulated (or in a vacant property- running heat at a low level to ensure pipes don't freeze etc)

It is responsibile for your property to run those taps

You're doing more harm by allowing your pipes to burst. Especially under a taxpay system, where repairs fall under the heading of taxpayer expense.

I'm not sure if either you or Overheal have ever heard of the EU Drinking Water Directive. It specifies minimum standards for drinking water. The Commission has also taken legal action against Ireland over its failure to ensure a safe supply of drinking water to all its citizens (most recently in May 2008- but ongoing).

Sustained. But its not a mandate to Supply drinking water to all citizens: Its a mandate that drinking water that is supplied is of drinkable standard. It does not set up a requirement for the government to lay pipes for every tom dick and harry living out in the bushes.

Vegeta wrote:

Overheal I'm sorry but you're having a laugh if you think we should pay an extra billion a year for water.

You pay less than half our VAT/Sales Tax and probably about 5% less income tax.

We are paying for water. A lot of people have posted now saying stupid sh1te like "Water isn't free, it costs money to process, so it doesn't matter how much of it there is etc etc ". Are they dumb enough to think it's being processed for free now? Or is the water fairy giving the government some credit?

I'm not saying you don't. I'm just saying the way you Are paying for it: Sucks. And Doesn't seem to be working. And in my opinion, you'd be well advised to switch to the system so many other countries operate on without much problem.

Why was this not paid for in the unprecedented years of growth and surplus? Oh that's right this government cant actually manage the country, at all. So if the leaks and crap water (literally) were not fixed in times of plenty, why are they trying to do it now when the country is in such a bad state. How about shelving it for 5 years for a time when we can afford it.

First off: How, given the horrible, undrinkable state of the Irish water supply can you say leave it for Another 5 years? This problem has already been Prevalent for At Least the last 5 years. I'm hazarding you never lived in the Midwest.

Secondly: Yes. Your Government cannot manage money. And its that same upper tier of politicized bureaucracy thats Currently in charge of your water supply am I right in saying? Whoever is in charge of it right now: its not working. That responsibility needs to be handed down to independent, municipal entities at the County Level if not at the Town Council Level.

Also people keep stating that we want better services but are not willing to pay for them. Have they forgotten, that compared to other countries we overpay for a lot of services we already have.?

Sure but Im wondering if that isnt just a case of Big Govt and a need to break it down a bit and delegate the work. In this case, a new entity or group of entities that would manage the water supply at the town or county level.

As I said I have no problem paying for metering if my tax is lowered accordingly. I don't trust the government to do that though. The thought of having to give them yet another 3.5-4.5% of my taxable income makes me depressed. IF we got a world class system at a fair price that'd be one thing, but we wont.

Depressing thought. But as smcarrick said, its currently being investigated at the EU level. Lisbon may help you out with this one after all.

Smegmar wrote:

The cost of renewing this network, I would imaging, is considerably less then fitting a meter to every house in Ireland.

Its cheaper to buy a horse than it is to feed it, too.

Its not enough to just patch the network you need to install regulation and monitoring. I discussed this several pages earlier and the information is available on the internet, the advantages of water metering.

Dr_Teeth wrote:

It's our water system and we already pay for it through our taxes. If there has been under-investment, then more money should be allocated. If there isn't enough money to allocate, then taxes should be raised or lower priority expenses should be reduced, or the government should take out a loan to cover the investment. I'd sure as hell prefer the government to go into debt to invest in clean water than ****ing Anglo Irish Bank!

I am not in favour of metering or separate water charges.

Wow :pac: you want them to Raise your taxes to pay for this but at the same time you dont want them to charge you for water.

:rolleyes:

JeWalker wrote:

And why do people think there is a water shortage?

Because there is. Its been going on for years. Making runs to Limerick to bottle a few gallons of fresh tap water were something I did upon a time.

ProjectMayhem wrote:

The current problems are an inherent ineptitude within the councils of Ireland. For well over a decade we've lost around 40% of all water before it reaches houses. This is nothing to do with the people - and we should never foot the bill for this. Infrastructure is paid for when development on buildings go on - builders and contractors who do not follow regulations should be forced to pay for re-laying of pipes and fixing of mains. Not the residents.

They Did Follow Regulations didnt they. News Flash: Things that are built right still break down. Is a BMW Maintenance free? No? Does that make it a **** car?

If I build a house should I have to pay for the next 50 years of water supply maintenance upfront?

Absolutely ridiculous notion.

when building our home we got a well bored because after speaking to our neighbours along the road they were not happy with water from the mains.low pressure,not very nice to drink ...we spent 2500 euro getting well bored and pump installed.so how do you think the water rates would be implemented in our case .im sure there are many more people who have done likewise,

Wells are not interfaced with the Municipal water infrastructure. You build it; its yours. Dont forget to Treat it though: Its basically groundwater thats seeped down into the Table.

Morlar

Overheal wrote: »

Whom's data is projecting the upward trend of cost?

........Welcome to 2010.

I am aware that it is 2010. You are aware that your last post about how much you pay in the US has zero relevance to how much we will pay in Ireland - right ? You are aware of that yes ?

Here was the link to the post where the figures were discussed ;

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64170860&postcount=106

If you are saying that you do not expect bills to increase in cost in Ireland I would say you are the one out of touch with 2010 Ireland.

smegmar

smegmar wrote: »

Leaving the taps on at night during freezing conditions saves water. Burst pipes cause a lot of problems and can leak for sometime before they are identified and fixed. If there is a charge on water many people will fear the cost of doing this and leave taps off causing more problems and cost then the small amount pump water currently.

Classic irish solution to an Irish problem. :rolleyes:

If the pipes had been installed correctly (50cm down rather than 20 or less) there would be no need to run taps to prevent freezing!

Overheal

Morlar wrote: »

I am aware that it is 2010. You are aware that your last post about how much you pay in the US has zero relevance to how much we will pay in Ireland - right ? You are aware of that yes ?

Here was the link to the post where the figures were discussed ;

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64170860&postcount=106

If you are saying that you do not expect bills to increase in cost in Ireland I would say you are the one out of touch with 2010 Ireland.

You snipped it and clearly ignored it:

Would you not accept that in the Long Term (10, 20, or even 30 years) Having an Established water system is more beneficial than the short term expenses of having to pay for your country's negligence over the last 15 years? There again you have an example of short term gains screwing you over in the long run.

The reason your Expenses will Increase is because theres been no improvement - and even negligence - to upkeep the Water Infrastructure since 1997. Will the cost go down if you pretend this problem doesnt exist for another 5 years as Vegeta suggests? Hardly.

The Independent.ie article does nothing to indicate however that you will be billed for the Metering installation, and that expense is probably going to come from the €175 interim flat rate being proposed (which also is to include a predetermined allowance of water, akin to my 6k gallons a month).

It doesn't go into detail how it comes up with the €400 figure but I can just as easily interject that is merely a projection based upon current consumption as measured from the existing meters at Water Facility outlets. If the typical Irish family maintained their lifestyle and continued to use the same quantities of water? Yes. I would Fully Expect they would pay €400. At Least.

But like the Smoking Tax Hikes I think you will discover that Rates will come in and demand will go down.

But here's the thing: Flat Rate per household? Is an Interim solution. And basically, its spreading the cost of the whole show: Including Leakages in the Municipal Infrastructure. You will probably find that upon successful metering implementation that you will be billed on what You Personally and your Household leaks, and not penalized for leakages that occur in the municipal infrastructure.

For more though we will need to wait for Mr. Gormley to release this supposed memo of his in the coming weeks.

Dr_Teeth

Overheal wrote: »

Wow :pac: you want them to Raise your taxes to pay for this but at the same time you dont want them to charge you for water.

Are you being disingenuous here or did you just not understand the simple point I was making?

As I said, it's our water system, we pay for it. Clean water is one of the most important investments a country could make, and we've made it through paying our taxes up to now. If more money needs to be spent, then we'll have to spend it.

What I am against is the waste and inefficiency of yet another collections agency. An agency that will either be government-run and stuffed with civil servants, or contacted-out so that a chunk of what I'd pay goes into corporate profits. I believe the expense, inefficiency and waste here would far out-weigh the supposed psychological benefits of people (who aren't on the dole, or pensioners, or disabled, or handicapped, or single mothers, or owners of a borehole, yadda yadda) using less water because of the extra bill.

hooradiation

So you're for more spending on water infrastructure, just against any possible way to collect it.

It's a unique perspective, I'll give you that.

Dr_Teeth

hooradiation wrote: »

So you're for more spending on water infrastructure, just against any possible way to collect it.

It's a unique perspective, I'll give you that.

Yes, our water infrastructure magically popped into existence without us having had to spend any money on it up til now. :rolleyes:

It's quite a simple concept. The government doesn't have the money to make necessary investment X over the usual cost. The solution is either:

a) Reduce the budget for other less essential items by X, spend it on the investment.

b) Increase the tax take by X, taking the money from the public to spend it on the investment.

c) Get a loan of X via a government bond or some other means, spending X on the investment and taking X+interest from the public over the long run.

d) Create a new bureaucracy from scratch (at the cost of Y) to collect X from the public. This involves meters, inspectors / installers, call centres, buildings full of civil servants, legislation to punish non-payers, rules and regulations about who pays how much based on their circumstances, 'customer' databases to be filled and updated, complaints and PQs, court cases for people billed or cut off rightly or wrongly, hours out of our lives filling out forms and waiting on helplines, listening to stupid adverts every day on the radio warning or pleading with us to pay up, websites and leaflets, grants and tenders for this that and the other.... God!

Politicians are so eager to pick the option that's bigger and more wasteful for no good reason. Everything they come up with involves another law, another regulation, another quango, another panel, another semi-state. It this case it's just so transparently ****ing pointless that I can't believe people think it's a good idea.

Duck's hoop

We pay for leccy, gas, oil, waste disposal, communications, and so on.

Water is a resource like any other. While we suffer an embarrassment of riches where this is concerned, it is nontheless not somehow magically free to clean and distribute this resource to the population.

I mean if you actually think about it, the pure luxury of having clean and plentiful water at the mere turn of a tap is one of Western society's greatest advancements and advantages.

This has to be worth paying for. We're scuppered without it.

Dr_Teeth

Duck's hoop wrote: »

We pay for leccy, gas, oil, waste disposal, communications, and so on.

Water is a resource like any other. While we suffer an embarrassment of riches where this is concerned, it is nontheless not somehow magically free to clean and distribute this resource to the population.

I mean if you actually think about it, the pure luxury of having clean and plentiful water at the mere turn of a tap is one of Western society's greatest advancements and advantages.

This has to be worth paying for. We're scuppered without it.

Do you actually think we *don't* already pay for our water? Do you pay taxes? Congrats, you've paid for water! Or do you think it comes out of your tap by magic?

The real issue is, what is a more efficient way to pay for water; through our taxes as we do now, or through creating a whole new government bureaucracy as I've described above? I'm for the first option thanks.

Morlar

Dr_Teeth wrote: »

Do you actually think we *don't* already pay for our water? Do you pay taxes? Congrats, you've paid for water! Or do you think it comes out of your tap by magic?

The real issue is, what is a more efficient way to pay for water; through our taxes as we do now, or through creating a whole new government bureaucracy as I've described above? I'm for the first option thanks.

You can be pretty sure that if they do introduce this they will not be reducing the income tax rate, or reducing VAT as a result of the sudden freeing up of hundreds upon hundreds of millions of euros. Public sector unions would have a field day.

Tefral

I did my dissertation for my degree on Rural water.

Firstly, to those that have voted they wouldnt pay for water, how many of ye have been without water for say a week or more? Id hazard a guess and say a very very small percentage. Water is taken for granted in this country.

I surveyed 3 types of people:
1. Those who get water from a well
2. Those who are on a group scheme
3. Those who get water from city/county councils via mains.

Of the First type 100% said they would pay for water
of the Second type only 35% said they are would pay for water (funny as they do on a group scheme)
and the thrid type said they would pay nothing for water

The conclusion from all of that was that people on mains pressure water take it for granted because they have no problems, however those with wells and group schemes have to manage their own water, they sometimes are without and sometimes dont have enough pressure to run a shower or a washing machine.

Water is there in the ground for those that want to get it themselves, however there are lots of problems associated with that, such as making sure its clean, bacterial free and there is pressure. There are grants from the government, however these do not cover the costs.

If we had to pay €200 per year for the pleasure of turning on a tap and being able to wash, drink and sanitise your home, then thats a small price to pay.

Bord Na mona have a rainwater harvesting system, and using "grey water" for flushing toilets, washing clothes etc is the way forward, this country has more that enough water coming from the sky to supplement anybody who feels hard done by with water charges

Morlar

cronin_j wrote: »

If we had to pay €200 per year for the pleasure of turning on a tap and being able to wash, drink and sanitise your home, then thats a small price to pay.

What if we are not talking about €200 per year but €400 per year (SET TO RISE). What if this did not include the cost of meters installation etc ? What if we already pay for it in taxes ?

Tefral

Morlar wrote: »

What if we are not talking about €200 per year but €400 per year (SET TO RISE). What if this did not include the cost of meters installation etc ? What if we already pay for it in taxes ?

A typical well with a 1/2 HP pump costs around 250 a year in electricity alone, couple that with a UV and sand filter system and maintenece your taking 400 a year easily anyway. Id pay it no problem.

The government should be made pay to retro fit the houses with meters, its been a requirement of planning permission here for a long time to install a metering system in houses anyway.

Morlar

cronin_j wrote: »

The government should be made pay to retro fit the houses with meters, its been a requirement of planning permission here for a long time to install a metering system in houses anyway.

The costs of fitting water meters to every accomodation will be mindblowing, not to mention the fact that anything the govt pay for is done with the money we give them to begin with.

Duck's hoop

Dr_Teeth wrote: »

Do you actually think we *don't* already pay for our water? Do you pay taxes? Congrats, you've paid for water! Or do you think it comes out of your tap by magic?

Don't want to get into a bun fight here. I pay taxes. On income, consumables etc. I also pay a road tax. For the upkeep and creation of roads that I use. I'm not naive enough to believe that this is an ideal situation, but if I've the choice between not having a regular, safe and consistent supply of water to my home, and paying for this, then I'll take the second option thanks.

Commercial enterprises, farmers included, pay taxes (!), no really, but they also pay for water supply. If it was metered maybe people might just be a little more appreciative of it, not leave the taps running for a week.

Tefral

Morlar wrote: »

The costs of fitting water meters to every accomodation will be mindblowing, not to mention the fact that anything the govt pay for is done with the money we give them to begin with.

Thats true, but in the process, engineering companies, plumbers, quantity surveyors, and adminsitrators will get jobs out of it, these people then spend their money, which creates more jobs.

Overall, i wouldnt agree with us householders fitting meters out of our own pocket, but i do agree for paying for water.

Morlar

cronin_j wrote: »

Thats true, but in the process, engineering companies, plumbers, quantity surveyors, and adminsitrators will get jobs out of it, these people then spend their money, which creates more jobs.

It will also create a national public sector bureaucracy in the process. With callcentres and so on as this poster laid it out above ;

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64207677&postcount=186

cronin_j wrote: »

Overall, i wouldnt agree with us householders fitting meters out of our own pocket, but i do agree for paying for water.

But you don't think we already do ?

Where does the money currently come from ?

Once we start paying for it instead through an annual levy (increasing year on year to cover the bloated bureaucracy etc), do you think income tax /VAT will decrease to make allowance for the fact that the entire cost of water supply would be removed and funded directly through the new levy ?

Bonito

Dam right we should. I'm sick and tired of having to switch off taps. My mother will wet a cloth, wonder off in to the sitting room to whipe a stain or something off the table. She'll leave the tap running when there's no need for it. So yes, my mother and everyone else should be charged for wasting perfectly good water. She's not a saint nor a sinner but we all know of someone who leaves water running and wastes it. I even put a litre bottle of water in my cistern to save a litre each time it's flushed. She went and took the bottle back out thinking "How did that get in there" :rolleyes:

Sometimes I just don't know :pac:

Overheal

d) Create a new bureaucracy from scratch (at the cost of Y) to collect X from the public. This involves meters, inspectors / installers, call centres, buildings full of civil servants, legislation to punish non-payers, rules and regulations about who pays how much based on their circumstances, 'customer' databases to be filled and updated, complaints and PQs, court cases for people billed or cut off rightly or wrongly, hours out of our lives filling out forms and waiting on helplines, listening to stupid adverts every day on the radio warning or pleading with us to pay up, websites and leaflets, grants and tenders for this that and the other.... God!

Politicians are so eager to pick the option that's bigger and more wasteful for no good reason. Everything they come up with involves another law, another regulation, another quango, another panel, another semi-state. It this case it's just so transparently ****ing pointless that I can't believe people think it's a good idea.

What you dont Get though, is that these Meters are an Essential Function of a Sustainable Water System. They should have been implemented from the start. And I am truly sorry that you're now at this stage where you have to [at pains] go back to Formula on that But it Needs to be done.

You can not make the argument (Though Id love to see anyone try) that your current Water System is Sustainable.

What if we are not talking about €200 per year but €400 per year (SET TO RISE). What if this did not include the cost of meters installation etc ? What if we already pay for it in taxes ?

How long until you stop trying to scare posters by typing in all caps about the immediate cost to society of long term savings?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8483009.stm

One of the world's biggest desalination plants is about to open in Australia's most populous - and thirstiest - city, Sydney

The $1.7bn (£1.04bn) scheme

Construction of the Kurnell facility began in late 2007 and it can produce 250 megalitres of water each day, about 15% of Sydney's needs.

1.08 Billion in Euros is the cost to build one of the biggest desalination plants in the world. Can provide 15% of Sydneys water, a city of 4.4 million people. Thats about the figure the govt aims to bring in EVERY YEAR with water charges. Will we get a desalination plant capable of providing 15% of the water needs of 4 million people?
Hmmmn

The_Conductor

Deleted User wrote: »

1.08 Billion in Euros is the cost to build one of the biggest desalination plants in the world. Can provide 15% of Sydneys water, a city of 4.4 million people. Thats about the figure the govt aims to bring in EVERY YEAR with water charges. Will we get a desalination plant capable of providing 15% of the water needs of 4 million people?
Hmmmn

Keep in mind- in Sydney they pay all manner of residential charges there already including:

* Service Charges
* Usage Charges
* Recycled Water Charges
* Ancillary Charges
* Rebates and Social Policy
* Other Property Charges

Link here

You're not comparing like with like.

The_Conductor

Ps- they also pay an annual minimum $500 fee for being connected to the sewage network (with a 20mm pipe)- if they're planning on using bigger sewage pipes (I'd like to see someone try to get away with a 20mm sewage pipe in Ireland)- it increases to $2000 per annum for a 40mm pipe.
As for water charges- its $500 a year- to be connected to the network- before they ever start metering you.........

Do have a look at the pricing page I linked to- it really is an eye opener.......