England Saxons vs Ireland "Wolfhounds", The Rec, Sunday 2pm

Podge_irl

thehighground wrote: »

So you think he will be starting before Sexton or O'Gara?

I think what he means is that its different coming on for someone in an international and in an A game. Humphries was probably trying too hard to impress - as that is essentially what A games are for - whereas coming on in an international he would be more concerned with the team just winning. I wouldnt want to see him or Wallace coming on at outhalf though. Hopefully ROG/Sexton will always be on the bench.

Dowling is never going to make the Irish team - but what he offers is a game like this is that he is an experienced player.

Dowling offers nothing in a game like this and it was an odd selection. He's not even starting for Munster these days. If Hurley hadn't been injured (and he genuinely does need to be looked at) then Carr wouldn't even have been on the team which would have been ridiculous.

Buckley is second choice at his club, behind the present incumbent, unlike Ross who rarely makes the bench in Leinster.

Ross has more provincial gametime than Hayes, CJ or Wright. I might add that the latter two are much better tightheads than Hayes as well. He's not the complete article by any means, and ideally we'd have a prop who was a mix of Buckley and Ross, but Ross is the better prop - and by a long way.

RuggieBear

back on topic people. debate the posts not the poster.

also thg....try using the multiquote instead of having 4 posts in a row.

Brewster

Lads, Tony Buckley is the only thing I cant fathom about Kidney! Does Buckley have something on Kidney?! I am beginning to think so. Its the ONLY player I really have a problem with Kidney picking!

He cannot be anywhere near an Ireland 22. Tom Court is twice the player.

Thought Boss did well when he came on, he deserves to be in Ireland 22, not sure whether he has done enough to take O Learys shirt yet. Defo a better option than Reddan or Strings I have to say.

Rory Best, outstanding, absolutely thrilled for the bigman. I would start him next week, I really would, tell him to play for 60 mins and bring Flannery on. He will help shore up a poor scrummaging front row. He is a better in scrum than Flannery and the Italians will put it upto us next week.

Very impressed with Chris Henry. I genuinely think he has a bench chance next week, he can cover 6 and 8 comfortably, so provides cover for Ferris and Heaslip.

Few interesting selections ahead for Kidney.... Most of all though Declan, Buckley no where near an Ireland or IReland wolfhounds team again EVER

sock puppet

Brewster wrote: »

Few interesting selections ahead for Kidney.... Most of all though Declan, Buckley no where near an Ireland or IReland wolfhounds team again EVER

I cringe every time I hear that name. Next they'll be renaming the senior team the leprechauns.

Doctor Zaius

Disappointed with Stringer, Dowling and Carr, too many errors from them.

Thought Paddy Wallace was quiet enough.

Boss and Henry certainly made an impact, helped that the Saxons were down to 14.

Thought Matthews and McFadden did alright at centre although McFadden played some dangerous rugby.

Overall, I felt it was a game we should have won. They just weren't clinical enough.

phog

Too many pages to read now so most of this might already have been covered but here goes:

Very dissappointed with Stringer, Dowling, Jennings and Toner, all of these guy can be much better and should have been using today to impress, Sean O'B, Duffy and Muldoon had a mixed bag.

Delighted to see Best and Horan back in a green jersey.

The worst part of the game was Ireland's Call, they would have been better off ignoring the anthems.

Madworld

I agree with what everybody here is saying about Buckley. He s not good enough for Ireland and hes not good enough forn the A's.

A TH is the most important element of a scrum. Crap TH = Crap Scrum. Simple as. Using the excuse that a TH is good in the loose is not a good enough for his selection. You need a back row that is good in the loose. Not a 21 stone prop.
Ross is not so good in the loose but he is an excellent scrumager. He is IMO the best scrumaging TH in the country. IF CJ and Stan are still at Leinster next season then he should head back down to Munster again and compete for that TH position against a 36 year old, distinctly average scrumager with very little competition.

chupacabra

Stringers passing was beyond woeful today and for a player whose passing is his best asset, we shouldn't be seeing him in an Ireland shirt ever again, its time to move on. Carr has serious pace, catching Cato and burning him on the outside, no mean feat. id love to see him in the Heineken cup.

anonymous_joe

chupacabra wrote: »

Stringers passing was beyond woeful today and for a player whose passing is his best asset, we shouldn't be seeing him in an Ireland shirt ever again, its time to move on. Carr has serious pace, catching Cato and burning him on the outside, no mean feat. id love to see him in the Heineken cup.

Defensively Carr's a little iffy, but his attacking potential is pretty awesome.

Must confess, was really disappointed in today's performance.

Quite a few lads with f all game time out there, and some fairly mixed reactions as a result.

danthefan

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Defensively Carr's a little iffy, but his attacking potential is pretty awesome.

Must confess, was really disappointed in today's performance.

Quite a few lads with f all game time out there, and some fairly mixed reactions as a result.

Thought Carr did alright in defence today. He was infintely better than Dowling overall.

anonymous_joe

danthefan wrote: »

Thought Carr did alright in defence today. He was infintely better than Dowling overall.

Aye. Ian Dowling did a bit of an Ian Dowling alright. Shame Hurley couldn't start at 11.

Duffy looked quite good at times. Think he's a fairly accomplished footballer really.

danthefan

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Aye. Ian Dowling did a bit of an Ian Dowling alright. Shame Hurley couldn't start at 11.

Duffy looked quite good at times. Think he's a fairly accomplished footballer really.

The bad thing is if Hurley was fit Carr mightn't even have made the 22.

anonymous_joe

danthefan wrote: »

The bad thing is if Hurley was fit Carr mightn't even have made the 22.

I thought the plan had been Carr - Hurley (God knows why you'd ever let him near 15 again) and Dowling on the left.

danthefan

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I thought the plan had been Carr - Hurley (God knows why you'd ever let him near 15 again) and Dowling on the left.

Oh, maybe I'm wrong so, I was under the impression Carr came in for Hurley.

outwest

carr defence was good today, made some one great tackle on the england 3.

duffy had a good game, as did mattews, some people didnt like the facf he didnt pass to dowling, but in fairness, the amount of time dowling dropped the ball today i wouldnt pass to him either,

muldoon was solid good game but henry is more dynamic.

anonymous_joe

danthefan wrote: »

Oh, maybe I'm wrong so, I was under the impression Carr came in for Hurley.

I wouldn't swear either way.

TheBodFather

Oh, maybe I'm wrong so, I was under the impression Carr came in for Hurley.

Fionn Carr came in for Johne Murphy who pulled out with an injury.

SomeFool

TheBodFather wrote: »

Fionn Carr came in for Johne Murphy who pulled out with an injury.

I thought that premier rugby wouldn't release him??

seanin4711

funky penguin wrote: »

Positives: Best. Carr and Duffy for the first 20 mins. Matthews for that break.

Negatives: At first, we lacked a cutting edge, after a bout of kicking, we just seemed to slow down, not helped by Stringer's bad decisions.

I sincerely hope at least Boss comes on.

pity about the result!
slan
j

PhatPiggins

SomeFool wrote: »

I thought that premier rugby wouldn't release him??

True enough, he came on for Leicester at the weekend.

Podge_irl

Hmmm.....seemingly Ireland A are not competing in the Churchill Cup this year. Very, very disappointed to hear that.

PhatPiggins

Podge_irl wrote: »

Hmmm.....seemingly Ireland A are not competing in the Churchill Cup this year. Very, very disappointed to hear that.

Yeah read that in The Times a couple of weeks ago.

Thats Fergus McFaddens total games for the season cut in half

Podge_irl

I don't understand the logic behind it. Kidney claimed the provinces were complaining about him taking 30 people to NZ/Aus and he didn't want to also take players to the churchill and have them missing ML games. I didn't think CC players missed ML games in the past and it can only be beneficial to the players to compete in a tournament like that.

thehighground

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Yeah read that in The Times a couple of weeks ago.

Thats Fergus McFaddens total games for the season cut in half

Not necessarily - the 'A's are going on tour to the SH with the senior team. Extra games are being arranged for them. A bit more challenging than Canada & USA I would think!

Podge_irl

thehighground wrote: »

Not necessarily - the 'A's are going on tour to the SH with the senior team. Extra games are being arranged for them. A bit more challenging than Canada & USA I would think!

They're trying to arrange mid-week games, but its not quite the same as an A team.

It's disappointing for the USA & Canada as well as Ireland. I think the tier 1 countries have a duty to provide help and competition to the tier 2/3 teams and the CC is very important for those sides.

The likes of McFadden will struggle to get into that 30 as well, despite clearly being an exceptional player.

thehighground

Podge_irl wrote: »

I don't understand the logic behind it. Kidney claimed the provinces were complaining about him taking 30 people to NZ/Aus and he didn't want to also take players to the churchill and have them missing ML games. I didn't think CC players missed ML games in the past and it can only be beneficial to the players to compete in a tournament like that.

Think the issue with the provinces is with Kidney wanting his world cup squad for 12 weeks at the start of next season, not with the Churchill Cup/Tour downunder.

Podge_irl

thehighground wrote: »

Think the issue with the provinces is with Kidney wanting his world cup squad for 12 weeks at the start of next season, not with the Churchill Cup/Tour downunder.

Stupid ****ing world cup.

thehighground

Podge_irl wrote: »

They're trying to arrange mid-week games, but its not quite the same as an A team.

It's disappointing for the USA & Canada as well as Ireland. I think the tier 1 countries have a duty to provide help and competition to the tier 2/3 teams and the CC is very important for those sides.

Surely its better than an 'A' team - emulating what would happen in a real situation. McFaddan might get a chance to play with some of the first team.

The Churchill Cup will still go on without Ireland 'A'. Anyway, both those teams get plenty of help from Ireland. As its leading into the RWC, no harm looking to develop the first team.

PhatPiggins

thehighground wrote: »

Not necessarily - the 'A's are going on tour to the SH with the senior team. Extra games are being arranged for them. A bit more challenging than Canada & USA I would think!

Thanks for clearing that up. They're are plenty of good club/provincial teams they could play in NZ, hopefully they wont end up some dross Presidential XV in OZ.

The Churchill cup is an excellent developemental tournie imo. Personally I think they'd be better off in it but I guess Kidney wants as big a squad as possible if we're to finally take a SH scalp.

thehighground

Podge_irl wrote: »

They're trying to arrange mid-week games, but its not quite the same as an A team.

It's disappointing for the USA & Canada as well as Ireland. I think the tier 1 countries have a duty to provide help and competition to the tier 2/3 teams and the CC is very important for those sides.

The likes of McFadden will struggle to get into that 30 as well, despite clearly being an exceptional player.

I'd say that there will be more than 30 going - more like 35/36. I'd also guess that anyone with exceptional talent will be brought along for the experience. (i.e., Kidney had Earls on the bench for the Heineken Cup final in '08 despite having played AIL all year).

Podge_irl

thehighground wrote: »

Surely its better than an 'A' team - emulating what would happen in a real situation. McFaddan might get a chance to play with some of the first team.

The Churchill Cup will still go on without Ireland 'A'. Anyway, both those teams get plenty of help from Ireland. As its leading into the RWC, no harm looking to develop the first team.

It's better than an A team for those who are on it - but that's only 8 players outside the first choice 22. Though I guess 30 is kind of a world cup squad and hence the thinking - but I would be afraid someone like McFadden won't get on the squad and he desperately needs exposure to as much rugby as possible because he's an excellent player and will be vital to Ireland in a couple years imo.

The CC will go ahead, but its losing something without Ireland A (not least the obvious point of "its losing the reigning champions"). The crowds in the US/Canada would be getting used to the tournament and the participants. Chopping and changing the teams in it won't help the tournament's profile and the replacements almost certainly will be of a lower standard. US & Canada desperately need proper competition. I remember seeing Ngwenya in a game against Munster and he was useless - clearly had potential but struggled in a somewhat high-tempo game. Exposure to some high quality rugby helped him no end and he's doing well for Biarritz now.

Stev_o

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Thanks for clearing that up. They're are plenty of good club/provincial teams they could play in NZ, hopefully they wont end up some dross Presidential XV in OZ.

The Churchill cup is an excellent developemental tournie imo. Personally I think they'd be better off in it but I guess Kidney wants as big a squad as possible if we're to finally take a SH scalp.

If we are lucky we might grab the Maori for a midweek game, it's their Centurion year so they are trying to get as many fixtures as possible.

Podge_irl

thehighground wrote: »

I'd say that there will be more than 30 going - more like 35/36. I'd also guess that anyone with exceptional talent will be brought along for the experience. (i.e., Kidney had Earls on the bench for the Heineken Cup final in '08 despite having played AIL all year).

I dunno, I read something in the Indo that suggested it was just 30, but if its more like 35/36 then I've less of a problem with it (though I still think it sucks for the US/Canada).

thehighground

Podge_irl wrote: »

It's better than an A team for those who are on it - but that's only 8 players outside the first choice 22. Though I guess 30 is kind of a world cup squad and hence the thinking - but I would be afraid someone like McFadden won't get on the squad and he desperately needs exposure to as much rugby as possible because he's an excellent player and will be vital to Ireland in a couple years imo.

McFaddan needs game time at club/provincial level more than anything else.

The CC will go ahead, but its losing something without Ireland A (not least the obvious point of "its losing the reigning champions"). The crowds in the US/Canada would be getting used to the tournament and the participants. Chopping and changing the teams in it won't help the tournament's profile and the replacements almost certainly will be of a lower standard. US & Canada desperately need proper competition. I remember seeing Ngwenya in a game against Munster and he was useless - clearly had potential but struggled in a somewhat high-tempo game. Exposure to some high quality rugby helped him no end and he's doing well for Biarritz now.

Bear in mind that the team that won the Churchill Cup last year will have moved on a bit like Sexton. Also thought the heat in North America is a bit much (and probably what killed off England in the final). Bob Casey seemed to suffer a lot on that North American Tour. Anyway, USA & Canada must be sick of getting a hiding off us!

Zzippy

Podge_irl wrote: »

I dunno, I read something in the Indo that suggested it was just 30, but if its more like 35/36 then I've less of a problem with it (though I still think it sucks for the US/Canada).

The interview with Declan Kidney in yesterday's Sindo mentioned a squad of 30 for the tour alright. Its a short tour but still hard to see 30 being enough for midweek games as well as the Tests.

PhatPiggins

Stev_o wrote: »

If we are lucky we might grab the Maori for a midweek game, it's their Centurion year so they are trying to get as many fixtures as possible.

That would be great. At home the Maori's would beat a lot of full international teams.

anonymous_joe

PhatPiggins wrote: »

That would be great. At home the Maori's would beat a lot of full international teams.

Doubtful sadly.

Unless a lot of boys come home this year. Keep in mind that the team that played Munster in TP would be the equivalent to the Maori side in terms of relative strength I reckon.

A full strenght Maori team would give the full Ireland team a run for its money with f all difficulty but with so many of their potential players happily ensconcned in European clubs I've no idea what kind of side they'd have that'd be able to compete properly...

PhatPiggins

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Doubtful sadly.

Unless a lot of boys come home this year. Keep in mind that the team that played Munster in TP would be the equivalent to the Maori side in terms of relative strength I reckon.

A full strenght Maori team would give the full Ireland team a run for its money with f all difficulty but with so many of their potential players happily ensconcned in European clubs I've no idea what kind of side they'd have that'd be able to compete properly...

Dunno the qualification policy for the Maori's is so loose(Paul Tito,ony Brown) that they can select from about 60% of regisetered players in NZ.

I highlighted the players from that Munster game that qualify for the Maori

NEW ZEALAND: Cory Jane; Hosea Gear, Anthony Tuitavake, Isaia Toeava, Joe Rokocoko; Stephen Donald, Piri Weepu (capt); Jamie Mackintosh, Corey Flynn, Ben Franks, Ross Filipo, Jason Eaton, Adam Thomson, Scott Waldrom, Liam Messam.
Replacements: Hika Elliott, John Afoa, Brad Thorn, Kieran Read, Alby Mathewson, Richard Kahui, Mils Muliaina.

Bar Filipo I think they're all still NZ based

danthefan

Stev_o wrote: »

If we are lucky we might grab the Maori for a midweek game, it's their Centurion year so they are trying to get as many fixtures as possible.

We are almost definitely playing the Maori.

twinytwo

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Dunno the qualification policy for the Maori's is so loose(Paul Tito,ony Brown) that they can select from about 60% of regisetered players in NZ.

I highlighted the players from that Munster game that qualify for the Maori

NEW ZEALAND: Cory Jane; Hosea Gear, Anthony Tuitavake, Isaia Toeava, Joe Rokocoko; Stephen Donald, Piri Weepu (capt); Jamie Mackintosh, Corey Flynn, Ben Franks, Ross Filipo, Jason Eaton, Adam Thomson, Scott Waldrom, Liam Messam.
Replacements: Hika Elliott, John Afoa, Brad Thorn, Kieran Read, Alby Mathewson, Richard Kahui, Mils Muliaina.

Bar Filipo I think they're all still NZ based

True that... cullen was selected for them once.. if memory severs me correctly and you hardly say he was maori

anonymous_joe

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Dunno the qualification policy for the Maori's is so loose(Paul Tito,ony Brown) that they can select from about 60% of regisetered players in NZ.

I highlighted the players from that Munster game that qualify for the Maori

NEW ZEALAND: Cory Jane; Hosea Gear, Anthony Tuitavake, Isaia Toeava, Joe Rokocoko; Stephen Donald, Piri Weepu (capt); Jamie Mackintosh, Corey Flynn, Ben Franks, Ross Filipo, Jason Eaton, Adam Thomson, Scott Waldrom, Liam Messam.
Replacements: Hika Elliott, John Afoa, Brad Thorn, Kieran Read, Alby Mathewson, Richard Kahui, Mils Muliaina.

Bar Filipo I think they're all still NZ based

Not really an amazing collection of players really...

thehighground

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Not really an amazing collection of players really...

This is the Maori team that beat the Lions back in 2005. Not a bad lineout here including Jonno Gibbes!

Maori: L MacDonald; Gear, Tipoki, McAlister, Ralph; Hill (Spencer 42), Weepu; Manu (Feek, 52), Flynn, Hayman, Filipo (Braid, 71), Hohneck, Gibbes (capt), Holah, A MacDonald.

Try: L MacDonald. Con: L McAlister. Pens: Hill 2, McAlister 2.

B&I Lions: Lewsey; Shanklin, O'Driscoll (capt), D'Arcy, S Williams; Jones, Dawson; Sheridan (Jenkins, 48), Thompson (Byrne, 71), White, Shaw, O'Connell, Hill, M Williams, Owen.

Sin-bin: Sheridan 38.

Try: O'Driscoll. Con: Jones. Pens: Jones 2.

Hippo

IIRC to qualify for the team you must be one-eighth Maori, so that's nearly everyone!

sock puppet

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Not really an amazing collection of players really...

It's still enough to put a second string Ireland away I'd say. Is it definitely going ahead? Should be a good game.

thehighground

sock puppet wrote: »

It's still enough to put a second string Ireland away I'd say. Is it definitely going ahead? Should be a good game.

More than enough - I think every time the Maori have participated in the Churchill Cup in the last few years, they have won it.

anonymous_joe

thehighground wrote: »

This is the Maori team that beat the Lions back in 2005. Not a bad lineout here including Jonno Gibbes!

Maori: L MacDonald; Gear, Tipoki, McAlister, Ralph; Hill (Spencer 42), Weepu; Manu (Feek, 52), Flynn, Hayman, Filipo (Braid, 71), Hohneck, Gibbes (capt), Holah, A MacDonald.

Try: L MacDonald. Con: L McAlister. Pens: Hill 2, McAlister 2.

B&I Lions: Lewsey; Shanklin, O'Driscoll (capt), D'Arcy, S Williams; Jones, Dawson; Sheridan (Jenkins, 48), Thompson (Byrne, 71), White, Shaw, O'Connell, Hill, M Williams, Owen.

Sin-bin: Sheridan 38.

Try: O'Driscoll. Con: Jones. Pens: Jones 2.

To be honest, if a game with the Maoris is to happen, that's the kind of team I'd want to see play, and it'd be against the full Irish team.

sock puppet wrote: »

It's still enough to put a second string Ireland away I'd say. Is it definitely going ahead? Should be a good game.

I'd assume it'd have to be going ahead really.

Digifriendly

thehighground wrote: »

More than enough - I think every time the Maori have participated in the Churchill Cup in the last few years, they have won it.

Didn't they lose the final one year at Twickenham to England 'A'/Saxons when Tom Croft scored a sensational try near the end?

thehighground

Digifriendly wrote: »

Didn't they lose the final one year at Twickenham to England 'A'/Saxons when Tom Croft scored a sensational try near the end?

Your right - Saxons beat them 17-13 in the final. On the way to the final they thumped Ireland "A" 50-22!