16 year old rape victim receives 101 lashes for becoming pregnant

irishconvert · 23-07-2010 1:35pm

vibe666 wrote: »

i see no problem with two teenagers expressing themselves sexually as they reach puberty as long as they are educated properly and approach it with a little sense and I don't see why anyone would, after all it IS totally natural.
.

Hahaha, you have got to be taking the piss. You are happy for the local teenagers to get their way with your 13-year old daughter?!!

vibe666 wrote: »

and STILL you are comparing curious teens doing what coms naturally with dirty old predatory men abusing children and tarring the former with the same brush to try and justify the latter and quite frankly it's fcuking sickening. if your blindness to the glaringly obvious is at all typical of attitudes in the muslim world then there really is no hope for any of you.

Where did wes justify that? Did I miss a post?

Wibbs · 23-07-2010 1:44pm

deravarra wrote: »

Are you talking about the Prophet David or Mohammed?

Both I suppose now you mention them, but I was referring to the latter. The notion that Islam is a religion of peace kinda fall flat on its arse when you look on the nature of the founder and how it was built and spread. The "oh the chirstians etc were the same" is not an argument on this front as the founder of their faith was not a military man, did not own slaves and enslave others, nor ordered and oversaw the deaths of those who disagreed with him. The word Islam itself means submission and obedience. It only means peace in the context of submission. It's a very different and I would say far more dangerous religion than any other I can think of.

As for the subjugation of women and considering them second class citizens, both the Koran and the Hadith are pretty clear on this. Sharia in its various forms just copperfastens this.

From the Quran itself. Most of this stuff is in the Chapter "The Cow"

As witnesses: http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/002.qmt.html#002.282 The important bit "call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women". So straightaway they're lesser in the eyes of the law and Allah.

They're considered "Tilth" fertile soil to go to when you please: http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/002.qmt.html#002.223

Men have "advantage" over them: http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/002.qmt.html#002.228

Even angels cant be women:http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/053.qmt.html#053.027

OK that's the Koran itself, the incontrovertible word of Allah and there's plenty more where that comes from. It's a searchable database so have a read and have people make their own mind up. Just type in "women". I'm sure you'll find more examples. I didnt throw in the usual suspects like being allowed to beat them and send them away or the differences in how men and women are punished for transgressions.

Then the Hadith. Now we can go back and forth about the authenticity, but these texts have been acceptable and accepted for over a 1000 years.

Have a go at this one about womens lack of intelligence http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/006.sbt.html#001.006.301

The majority of souls in hell are ungrateful women apparently http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/002.sbt.html#001.002.028

Again have a search of that database and make your own mind up. Like I say you will find plenty more where that came from.

Did Islam improve the lot of Arabian women? Yes (if we go by the Islamic accounts), but in comparison to a more enlightened age? Eh no. Just no. It is at its heart a male religion, like many if not most others. The difference is that the others can evolve more readily over time. They're not pickled in a certain time or place or attitude like Islam is and indeed codified to be so(unless you consider those eejits in the catholic church who equate in sin women priests and child abuse...).

getz · 23-07-2010 2:21pm

The HorsesMouth wrote: »

Are you seriously comparing Ireland with Bangladesh?

If a man had raped a women in Ireland in 1996 do you think he would have got away with it and the women received 101 lashes?

no, the woman would have been sent to the magdalene laundries and been locked up,with no outside contracts/no wages/work 10hrs a day/6 days a week/52 weeks a year,and could be kept there for life,and when dead buried in a mass grave,for committing no crime,just a vatican slave putting money into the vatican pocket.

Terry · 23-07-2010 4:31pm

deravarra wrote: »

Do you actually know which position you are taking in this argument? Or are you having problems keeping up with where you are on the issue?

A while back, you said "Islam (certain interpretations of sharia law to be exact) subjugates women"

That in the parentheses is very important - and not something I disagree with.

Certain interpretations of shariah law. Not all - but certain. So, it is down to the individual's interpretation of the law rather than the law itself.

Seriously, if you want to engage in a discussion such as this, please use a coherent approach with usable arguments which support your viewpoint rather than a miscellaneous selection of nonsensical utterings which do not show anything more than a disdain and contempt for islam (and other religions).

I don't care if you hate Islam. Fine, hate it as much as you want. I wont ask why you do. You don't have to come up with anything to validate or rationalize your hatred of it. But if you are going to use arguments such as subjugation of women, bring something real and measurable rather than half wit comments such as the one above.

irishconvert wrote: »

I think you are the one taking the piss. The fact that something was done under the guise of Islam means nothing at all if it goes against the teachings of Islam. I already pointed out that Islamic law doesn't allow for the punishment to the rape victim and you accepted this point. So why are you banging on and on about it being done in the name of Islam?

I'm going to answer both of these together because my pc crashed during my last attempted, then I had to restart it and then lost everything I had written.

Basically, Sharia laws is Islamic. It is based on the writings of Mohammed and the Koran. You cannot get more Islamic than that.

Some Islamic states use Sharia law to varying degrees. Some more strictly and to the letter than others.
Take Saudi Arabia for example. Here's their take on it:
http://www.arabinsight.org/aiarticles/181.pdf (pdf)
Then you have Iran. I'm not arsed looking for another article. You really don't need me to tell you what happened to women there after 1979.

The entire social structure is laid out to favour men. That includes marraige, prayer, shopping and courtship to name but a few examples.

irishconvert · 23-07-2010 5:31pm

Terry wrote: »

The entire social structure is laid out to favour men. That includes marraige, prayer, shopping and courtship to name but a few examples.

Marriage, prayer, shopping and courtship! I am intrigued. Especially about prayers. How is this?

MagicMarker · 23-07-2010 5:32pm

irishconvert wrote: »

Marriage, prayer, shopping and courtship! I am intrigued. Especially about prayers. How is this?

Are you taking the piss or something?

rebecca 30 · 23-07-2010 5:39pm

There was another case like that last year were a 13 year old girl got gang raped, she reported this, then she was sentence to be stoned to death as it was her fault for been gang raped , 1000s sat by while they watch as she was stoned to death , the medics took her out of the hole in the ground half way during this but she was still alive , they put her back in and the men started throwing more stones , she did die a while after this ,
This really is the pits of society,

Terry · 23-07-2010 5:43pm

irishconvert wrote: »

Marriage, prayer, shopping and courtship! I am intrigued. Especially about prayers. How is this?

They can't pray when they're on the rag.

In terms of religious obligations, such as certain elements of prayer, payment of zakat, observance of the Ramadan fast and pilgrimage, women are treated no differently from men. There are, however, some exceptions made in the case of prayers and fasting. They are also forbidden to perform salah (prayer) during menstruation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia#Women
I know this might be hard to believe, but there it is in all its glory.
Justify that.

Women are basically bought and sold, when it comes to marraige (dowrys and the like). Whilst men can have more than one wife, women cannot have more than one husband.
Justify that.

Courtship and shopping can be covered in one go.
It's not like women can walk into the local bar and hook up with a man. Nor can she go shopping for stuff that may be forbidden to be owned by women.
Why?
Because she can't leave her house without being in the company of a man, and without prior written consent. She also cannot marry a non-Muslim.

steddyeddy · 23-07-2010 6:47pm

yes i think that the whole muslim faith should make their views clear on what they think is right and wrong, sitting on the fence is not good enough in matters like this

deravarra · 23-07-2010 7:03pm

Terry wrote: »

Women are basically bought and sold, when it comes to marraige (dowrys and the like).

With that statement, you have shown your ignorance of Islamic marriage

I think enough's been "contributed" by you. I don't mind explaining things to people who don't know about it, but when those people who know next to nothing express an opinion which pertains to have a higher moral ground, then it's time to leave the "conversation".

Have a nice day.

deravarra · 23-07-2010 7:05pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

yes i think that the whole muslim faith should make their views clear on what they think is right and wrong, sitting on the fence is not good enough in matters like this

Yes, we'll all line up in single file, and explain one by one to you about what we think is right and wrong.

I'm sure you will listen very carefully, and it will make a difference to you.

Was my sarcasm clear?

barochoc · 23-07-2010 7:07pm

My name is URL wrote: »

Muslims, no surprise there then

And people on the boards here supporting them. Regarding Burka etc......

This is seriously messed up & they should be ashamed. The poor girl :mad:

barochoc · 23-07-2010 7:10pm

Terry wrote: »

They can't pray when they're on the rag.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia#Women
I know this might be hard to believe, but there it is in all its glory.
Justify that.

Women are basically bought and sold, when it comes to marraige (dowrys and the like). Whilst men can have more than one wife, women cannot have more than one husband.
Justify that.

Courtship and shopping can be covered in one go.
It's not like women can walk into the local bar and hook up with a man. Nor can she go shopping for stuff that may be forbidden to be owned by women.
Why?
Because she can't leave her house without being in the company of a man, and without prior written consent. She also cannot marry a non-Muslim.

You forgot to add 2nd class citizens, oh wait, or is that dogs? Oh well, they're just not treated fairly at all :mad:

deravarra · 23-07-2010 7:12pm

barochoc wrote: »

And people on the boards here supporting them. Regarding Burka etc......

This is seriously messed up & they should be ashamed. The poor girl :mad:

I havent seen anyone supporting this sort of behaviour ... who is supporting them?

deravarra · 23-07-2010 7:15pm

barochoc wrote: »

You forgot to add 2nd class citizens, oh wait, or is that dogs? Oh well, they're just not treated fairly at all :mad:

Really? And would you accept what a woman might say in that regard?

If you would, I will try and get a female friend of mine to give her input.

For the record, she isnt my wife, sister, cousin - nor will there be any coercion ... but that won't matter to you because you wouldnt want to believe it anyway ... would you?

steddyeddy · 23-07-2010 7:19pm

i personally dont blame muslims exclusivly unless they fail to condemn somethig evil like this rape case which is done in the name of their religeon,

Even in this country there have been people "punished for having been raped"

http://globalcomment.com/2010/listowel-rape-apology-that-the-rest-of-ireland-will-not-tolerate/

the whole world was outraged at the residents of listowel in kerry when 50 people shook hands with a rapist in court, the rape victim wasnt served in some shops.

then the councillor complained that people were complaining http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1221/1224261043378.html

wheter its for religeous reasons or small minded parochialism wrong is wrong and the more backward people of the world and even our own country will use cognitive dissonance to convince themselves what they do is right.

Terry · 23-07-2010 7:21pm

deravarra wrote: »

With that statement, you have shown your ignorance of Islamic marriage

I think enough's been "contributed" by you. I don't mind explaining things to people who don't know about it, but when those people who know next to nothing express an opinion which pertains to have a higher moral ground, then it's time to leave the "conversation".

Have a nice day.

FFS. I had a reply written and then it wouldn't load.

In short, are you denying that arranged marraige is carried out in Islamic countries under Sharia law?

Also, you didn't address the mentruation issue. Why is that?

deravarra · 23-07-2010 7:29pm

Terry wrote: »

FFS. I had a reply written and then it wouldn't load.

In short, are you denying that arranged marraige is carried out in Islamic countries under Sharia law?

Also, you didn't address the mentruation issue. Why is that?

Sure. I am not denying that arranged marriages are carried out - but this is not the idea you are putting forward of women being bought and sold. Since you mentioned dowries in the same context, it explained a lot about how little you know about Islamic marriage.

Why not look into Hindus and arranged marriages, and see the whole area of dowry there. Quite shocking when compared to islamic marriage.

In Islam, marriage should not be forced upon anyone. The prospective bride should be allowed choose her husband, just as much as the husband chooses the bride.

Yes, I didn't address the menstruation issue because for every other issue I sought to clarify for you after you displayed a blinding ignorance on each of those points, I thought it best not to go into another area where you think you know something, ask me to explain, ignore what I say, and then come back to the "conclusion" that you were right all along.

Do you go on like this with your GP? Must be fun for him if you do

deravarra · 23-07-2010 7:31pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

i personally dont blame muslims exclusivly unless they fail to condemn somethig evil like this rape case which is done in the name of their religeon

I made the point earlier - just because someone does something "in the name of" their religion it doesnt mean it's condoned by the religion.

People were bombing abortion clinics and mudering abortion doctors in the US not so long ago. They did so in the name of christianity. Does that make it a christian thing? Nope!

steddyeddy · 23-07-2010 7:35pm

deravarra wrote: »

I made the point earlier - just because someone does something "in the name of" their religion it doesnt mean it's condoned by the religion.

People were bombing abortion clinics and mudering abortion doctors in the US not so long ago. They did so in the name of christianity. Does that make it a christian thing? Nope!

i know that deravarra, but i feel the muslim faith should condemn this act to make clear what they think of it

deravarra · 23-07-2010 8:09pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

i know that deravarra, but i feel the muslim faith should condemn this act to make clear what they think of it

They have done, just like they have denounced terrorism.

The two foremost authorities on Islam (Al Azhar, Cairo and Darul Ul Deoband, India and Pakistan) have previously stated that terrorism and Islam are not compatible, yet the world keeps asking muslims to denounce terrorism.

They have said it time and time again ... and yet they are being asked again.

Why?

You think the Islamic authorities are responsible for an individual's crime?

This whole chasing muslims smacks of guilt by association, and it sickens me. What sickens me more is that it happens in an irish society, where our own people who lived in London in the 70's and 80's bore the brunt of a backlash from some in the UK after the bombings there.

It wasn't right then, and it's not right now.

I, and countless millions of other muslims want and desire peace, and yet we, the peaceful ones are accused of not speaking out enough. That, and sorry for the language, is the biggest load of bo***x I keep hearing.

Terry · 23-07-2010 8:23pm

deravarra wrote: »

Sure. I am not denying that arranged marriages are carried out - but this is not the idea you are putting forward of women being bought and sold. Since you mentioned dowries in the same context, it explained a lot about how little you know about Islamic marriage.

Look, I'm not an expert, but from what I've read about it, there are times when women are forced into marriage by their fathers or brothers.
There really is no piint in denying it happens.

Why not look into Hindus and arranged marriages, and see the whole area of dowry there. Quite shocking when compared to islamic marriage.

When all else fails, point out traveties in other religions. This is something you have repeatedly done throughout this thread, when the topic is clearly about a travesty committed by followers of Islam, in the name of Sharia law.

Ooh, look. There's a Catholic priest fiddling with a kiddie. Quick. Everyone start talking about that instead of pointing out the flaws of Islam.

In Islam, marriage should not be forced upon anyone. The prospective bride should be allowed choose her husband, just as much as the husband chooses the bride.

Should.
That's all well and good in theory, but you know damn well that this isn't always practiced.

In theory we would be living in a world where the Taliban didn't force women into subservience, where Palestinians were not forced from their land because Moses said it was sacred Jewish land, where Catholic priests are not kiddie fiddlers, where Irish people were not persecuted because of their beliefs, where the crusades didn't happen, where those native to the Americas were not slaughtered for rejecting Catholicism, where Indians were not slaughtered for rejecting Islam, and so on and so forth.

The reality is that the Koran has been twisted to suit those in power, and they are quite happy to treat women like crap.

Yes, I didn't address the menstruation issue because for every other issue I sought to clarify for you after you displayed a blinding ignorance on each of those points, I thought it best not to go into another area where you think you know something, ask me to explain, ignore what I say, and then come back to the "conclusion" that you were right all along.

Aside from the fact that I'm always right, you still haven't even tried to defend it.
I urge you to attempt to defend the practice of forbidding women to pray when they are menstruating.
I really would like to hear a valid reason as to why a woman who is menstruating, something completely beyond her control, is forbidden to pray.

go on like this with your GP? Must be fun for him if you do

I have absolutely no idea what that has to do with anything at all.
If you're trying to insult me in some manner, then you really do have no idea about my history on this site.

If I was to rate that insult on a scale of cartoons of Mohammed to the treatment of Palestinians by Israel, with the cartoons being lowest, it would be Mohammed with a bomb on his head as depicted in Jyllands-Posten.

steddyeddy · 23-07-2010 8:24pm

deravarra wrote: »

They have done, just like they have denounced terrorism.

The two foremost authorities on Islam (Al Azhar, Cairo and Darul Ul Deoband, India and Pakistan) have previously stated that terrorism and Islam are not compatible, yet the world keeps asking muslims to denounce terrorism.

They have said it time and time again ... and yet they are being asked again.

Why?

You think the Islamic authorities are responsible for an individual's crime?

This whole chasing muslims smacks of guilt by association, and it sickens me. What sickens me more is that it happens in an irish society, where our own people who lived in London in the 70's and 80's bore the brunt of a backlash from some in the UK after the bombings there.

It wasn't right then, and it's not right now.

I, and countless millions of other muslims want and desire peace, and yet we, the peaceful ones are accused of not speaking out enough. That, and sorry for the language, is the biggest load of bo***x I keep hearing.

Im talking about them condeming the girl getting whipped for getting raped

Wibbs · 23-07-2010 8:43pm

OK actual Islamic teaching, in the Quran/Hadith as far as women are concerned.

Marriage choice as practiced in the Quran/Hadith. You as a Muslim man can marry a non muslim women(person of the book). Can your female friend marry a Christian man say? Eh that would be a no. Can a woman refuse a new wife? Very grey area. Ergo womens choices are lesser than mens.

Both men and women should dress modestly as practiced in the Quran/Hadith, do you as a muslim man need to cover your hair? That would be a no again. There is no cultural equivalent of the burka for men.

Freedom of association and movement as practiced in the Quran/Hadith. Can you as a man have free travel and go where you please unescorted? Can a Muslim woman as practiced in the Quran/Hadith? Eh no again. Ergo they have less freedom.

Inheritance as practiced in the Quran/Hadith, women get less of a share. Half. So they're not equal there.

In law as practiced in the Quran/Hadith a woman's witness is worth half a man's or even a quarter in some cases. So not equality there.

Attitudes to women's biology as practiced in the Quran/Hadith Menstruating women are "a hurt and a pollution" to men. http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/002.qmt.html#002.222 In this one: http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/004.qmt.html#004.043 Even touching a woman is equated with coming from the toilet and a man must "purify" himself of such pollution before he comes to prayer.

Like I said before search through just the Quran on that site and you will see time and time and time again women are considered lesser in all things but motherhood and being wives.

If we go through the Hadith we find more evidence of the culture and faiths attitudes towards women and its an even less pretty read.

Islam often claims that women before Mohammads message were treated like animals and Islam improved their lot. Funny that the prophets first wife was a wealthy businesswoman widow and high up in her society. That type of woman seems to disappear in the records afterwards.

So the notion that Islam means anything approaching equal rights and perceptions of women is utterly daft. Now Muslims themselves are and can be very equitable on this point. IME sometimes more than western types when it comes to respect, but again I would contend its in spite of the faith not because of it. Its because of the individuals humanity. Oft times you will hear Muslims say that this issue and that issue is because the people aren't following the word of Islam, well I would contend that if one was to follow said word equity would not be found in it.

deravarra wrote: »

I made the point earlier - just because someone does something "in the name of" their religion it doesnt mean it's condoned by the religion.

People were bombing abortion clinics and mudering abortion doctors in the US not so long ago. They did so in the name of christianity. Does that make it a christian thing? Nope!

Like I said before I agree that humans in general will twist all sorts of guff to fit their own ends or madness, but my contention is that with Islam the fit is a lot easier in so many ways. EG the early Islamic world and early Muslims do a lot of fighting and killing and conquering. So much easier to translate and excuse that in other conflicts. The American "christian" bombing kids from 20,000 feet can fool himself he's doing Gaawds work, but he is fooling himself if that's compared to his religious texts. The Muslim fighting has far less of a leap to make. Obviously not killing kids, to be fair to Mohammad he did codify war and how to pursue it and was less barbaric than contemporaries and killing kids and non combatants was beyond the pale. Of course his idea of "non combatants" was predictated on whether they were a threat to him. He seemed to particularly dislike poets.

*EDIT* on the subject of childbrides. A search of the Quran regarding women turned up this in the divorce chapter http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/065.qmt.html#065.004 "And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair. " the bit in bold appears to suggest young girls who have not yet reached menstruating age, which would make the notion of childbrides more acceptable?

23-07-2010 9:36pm

Wibbs wrote: »

*EDIT* on the subject of childbrides. A search of the Quran regarding women turned up this in the divorce chapter http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/065.qmt.html#065.004 "And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair. " the bit in bold appears to suggest young girls who have not yet reached menstruating age, which would make the notion of childbrides more acceptable?

I don't understand a word that section is saying beyond post-menopause women

:o

edit: Oh now I get it

Do you think it's possible it was that custom of marrying them young so they could learn the husband's ways without actually having anything physical going on?

Terry · 23-07-2010 10:50pm

So it's been an hour since the last reply, but I have yet to see a valid reason as to why women are forbidden from praying while they are menstruating.

I look forward to how this can be justified.

vibe666 · 23-07-2010 10:59pm

wes wrote: »

**EDIT**
I have no idea, what I have done to earn so much ire from you, and your constant mis-representation of me is nothing short of puzzling.

you know, i've been going back through older posts and i did keep going on about it all well past the point where you had made your views clearer and i should have stopped but once i get going, it can be hard to put the brakes on.

wes wrote: »

I have made myself clear on several occasions, and I find it utterly astonishing, you are still mis-representing me, and what I have said.

you have made yourself clearer since this started and I ignored it in favour of keeping on ranting and i apologise.

wes wrote: »

Ok, so I will say this again one more time. Once again, low ages of consent in Muslim countries are wrong, old men marrying underage girls is wrong. Low ages of consent elsewhere is no excuse for this, but I was only pointing out that it isn't unique to the Muslim majority countries, as some seem to think that this is unique to them, and not to excuse it.

again, spot on and I totally agree. i think the whole world needs to be standing up and doing something about this kind of thing wherever it goes unpunished. it's by no means an exclusively islamic problem but it is still out there and needs to be addressed.

i probably could have gone on for days arguing, but the wife had me drinking rosé wine tonight (which i never do as it's usually awful) and it was actually really nice. 2 bottle later and i'm totally mellowed out and apologising online and she's passed out in bed. one things the Qur'an has right is to keep away from the demon drink.

if it makes you feel any better, i actually failed an exam today that cost me €200 to take (i did try and reschedule it, but they would have charged me anyways) because I'd spent so much time on this thread instead of studying.

8% below the pass mark over a thread on boards.ie. :eek:

sucks to be me!

vibe666 · 23-07-2010 11:00pm

Terry wrote: »

So it's been an hour since the last reply, but I have yet to see a valid reason as to why women are forbidden from praying while they are menstruating.

I look forward to how this can be justified.

because they are dirty bitches?

nothing to do with Islam, just a general observation.

Abrasax · 23-07-2010 11:09pm

Terry wrote: »

So it's been an hour since the last reply, but I have yet to see a valid reason as to why women are forbidden from praying while they are menstruating.

I look forward to how this can be justified.

From what I can make out there's nothing in the Koran that actually prevents them from praying while menstruating.

http://www.submission.org/women/hygiene.html

Just more misinterpretation, it would seem.

A different English translation, from the article, of the relevant sura...

They ask thee concerning women’s courses. Say: They are a hurt and a pollution: So keep away from women in their courses, and do not approach them until they are clean. But when they have purified themselves, ye may approach them in any manner, time, or place ordained for you by Allah. For Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean.

deravarra · 23-07-2010 11:12pm

Terry wrote: »

So it's been an hour since the last reply, but I have yet to see a valid reason as to why women are forbidden from praying while they are menstruating.

I look forward to how this can be justified.

apologies Terry - I should know my place and provide you with an answer within a reasonable time.

pfft

wes · 23-07-2010 11:14pm

vibe666 wrote: »

you have made yourself clearer since this started and I ignored it in favour of keeping on ranting and i apologise.

Thanks, I am sure I didn't help the situation myself.

vibe666 wrote: »

if it makes you feel any better, i actually failed an exam today that cost me €200 to take (i did try and reschedule it, but they would have charged me anyways) because I'd spent so much time on this thread instead of studying.

Sorry to hear that. Best of luck next time.

Wibbs · 23-07-2010 11:27pm

Abrasax wrote: »

From what I can make out there's nothing in the Koran that actually prevents them from praying while menstruating.

http://www.submission.org/women/hygiene.html

Just more misinterpretation, it would seem.

A different English translation, from the article, of the relevant sura...

and "They ask thee concerning women’s courses. Say: They are a hurt and a pollution: So keep away from women in their courses, and do not approach them until they are clean. But when they have purified themselves, ye may approach them in any manner, time, or place ordained for you by Allah. For Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean. " is not a bit daft to say the very least. That quote is saying from start to finish that they are unclean. More to the point its exclusively addressed to men and how men deal with women. Big shock as the whole thing is addressed to men and women are only a sideline.

I've noticed that no one has responded to my posts that show a clear misogynist, martial and violent thread running through Islam from the get go. Earlier, people were asking for speciific examples taken directly from the Quran et al, that showed support for such things and it was all a "misunderstanding" on the part of non Muslims. I suppose its easier to take Terry to task for his strident language. He's not far wrong though.

Terry · 23-07-2010 11:30pm

deravarra wrote: »

apologies Terry - I should know my place and provide you with an answer within a reasonable time.

pfft

God damn right you should know your place.

On a serious note, I look forward to your reasoning as to why women cannot pray while they are menstruating.
I honestly cannot see why this would be forbidden. It's not like women have any control over their monthly cycle.

I seriously doubt you can rationalise it, but I do look forward to your attempt.

As for your sarcasm above, I will once again point out that you obviously have no idea of the abuse that has been thrown at me through the years.
Compared to some of the abuse thrown at me, your abusive posts are realy tame and laughable.
Search through Feedback and my name for so examples.

Wibbs · 23-07-2010 11:31pm

Actually, lets make this real easy. Show me a sura that states women are the equal of men in life, law, socially, financially and spiritually to men. Good luck on that search. I could say much the same of slavery, attitudes to unbelievers and in the general martial sphere.

MagicMarker · 23-07-2010 11:33pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Actually, lets make this real easy. Show me a sura that states women are the equal of men in life, law, socially, financially and spiritually to men. Good luck on that search. I could say much the same of slavery, attitudes to unbelievers and in the general martial sphere.

And while we're at it, what's the punishment for apostasy again?

Abrasax · 23-07-2010 11:37pm

Wibbs wrote: »

and "They ask thee concerning women’s courses. Say: They are a hurt and a pollution: So keep away from women in their courses, and do not approach them until they are clean. But when they have purified themselves, ye may approach them in any manner, time, or place ordained for you by Allah. For Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean. " is not a bit daft to say the very least. That quote is saying from start to finish that they are unclean. More to the point its exclusively addressed to men and how men deal with women. Big shock as the whole thing is addressed to men and women are only a sideline.

I'll assume you read the very different English translation in the article, which I hope answers Terry's question.

I don't read Arabic so couldn't say what the sura itself says, though from what I understand it's directed to men in relation to sexual intercourse during menstruation, according to the interpretation of the author of the article.

Perhaps it's Gods way of doing women a favour by stopping randy husbands getting up on them during their period.

Wibbs · 23-07-2010 11:38pm

Terry wrote: »

So it's been an hour since the last reply, but I have yet to see a valid reason as to why women are forbidden from praying while they are menstruating.

I look forward to how this can be justified.

Easy answer for you Terry: They were primitives who at the time considered menses to be infectious and impure and this ended up in their religion. Common enough in low level agrarian societies. Its all about the place and time. For a universal philosophy its very much rooted in the local and temporal. Even the language of the philosophy is rooted in a specific time and place. Many times you will hear that it can only be understood in Arabic. Yea like a supreme being of the universe decided that there was only one language that could transmit the message.

Wibbs · 23-07-2010 11:41pm

Abrasax wrote: »

I'll assume you read the very different English translation in the article, which I hope answers Terry's question.

I did and IMHO it doesnt.

I don't read Arabic so couldn't say what the sura itself says, though from what I understand it's directed to men in relation to sexual intercourse during menstruation, according to the interpretation of the author of the article.

Oh its always directed at men. In the places it's directed at women it's message is to bow before and support the man.

Perhaps it's Gods way of doing women a favour by stopping randy husbands getting up on them during their period.

Maybe, but considering the rest of the instructions where women(both wives and slave girls, those whose "right hand possesses) are basically open to being gotten up on regardless of her feelings, I seriously doubt it.

Abrasax · 23-07-2010 11:41pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Actually, lets make this real easy. Show me a sura that states women are the equal of men in life, law, socially, financially and spiritually to men. Good luck on that search. I could say much the same of slavery, attitudes to unbelievers and in the general martial sphere.

Quran 3:195 tells us :

"Their Lord responded to them: "I never fail to reward any worker among you for any work you do, be you male or female you are equal to one another........."

and again in 16:97:

" Anyone who works righteousness, MALE OR FEMALE, while believing, we will surely grant them a happy life in this world, and we will surely pay them their full recompense for their righteous works."

Terry · 23-07-2010 11:43pm

Wibbs wrote: »

and "They ask thee concerning women’s courses. Say: They are a hurt and a pollution: So keep away from women in their courses, and do not approach them until they are clean. But when they have purified themselves, ye may approach them in any manner, time, or place ordained for you by Allah. For Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean. " is not a bit daft to say the very least. That quote is saying from start to finish that they are unclean. More to the point its exclusively addressed to men and how men deal with women. Big shock as the whole thing is addressed to men and women are only a sideline.

I've noticed that no one has responded to my posts that show a clear misogynist, martial and violent thread running through Islam from the get go. Earlier, people were asking for speciific examples taken directly from the Quran et al, that showed support for such things and it was all a "misunderstanding" on the part of non Muslims. I suppose its easier to take Terry to task for his strident language. He's not far wrong though.

Listen, you're quite obviously far more inteligent that I am.
I would just like to thank you for backing up my weak points with proper links and the like.

You are also far more intelligent than the majority of those defending the mysoginist aspects of Islam, and that is why they have not even attempted to address the facts you have presented to them.

Kudos to you for taking the time to read up on Islam (I'm too lazy), and finding the facts which show that it is centered around men and to the detriment of women.

I look forward to buying you a pint in a few weeks.

Oh, crap. That's supposed to be a secret.

Wibbs · 23-07-2010 11:49pm

Abrasax wrote: »

Examples..

Only in the context of being martyrs and defenders of Islam. Try adding the whole context of the sura.

"And their Lord hath accepted of them, and answered them: "Never will I suffer to be lost the work of any of you, be he male or female: Ye are members, one of another: Those who have left their homes, or been driven out therefrom, or suffered harm in My Cause, or fought or been slain,- verily, I will blot out from them their iniquities, and admit them into Gardens with rivers flowing beneath;- A reward from the presence of Allah, and from His presence is the best of rewards." Ditto for 16:97

Otherwise in times of peace and everyday life, women are clearly and practically second class citizens in a "correct" Islamic society. Their roles are clear, their "disadvantages" are clear. Is there any sura or part of Hadith where a man can "pollute" a woman by his very touch? One could argue a drunk unbeliever could, but that would be his choice not his very biology.

Abrasax · 23-07-2010 11:51pm

Wibbs wrote: »

I did and IMHO it doesnt.

Well, to my mind it suggests the Koran doesn't forbid women praying. (sura 2.222 is the one used to prevent them from doing so)

What happens in reality is a different story. It's not the first book people have misinterpreted to push their own agendas.

Oh its always directed at men. In the places it's directed at women it's message is to bow before and support the man.

Maybe, but considering the rest of the instructions where women(both wives and slave girls, those whose "right hand possesses) are basically open to being gotten up on regardless of her feelings, I seriously doubt it.

Do you have the relevant suras at hand?

Abrasax · 23-07-2010 11:59pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Only in the context of being martyrs and defenders of Islam. Try adding the whole context of the sura.

"And their Lord hath accepted of them, and answered them: "Never will I suffer to be lost the work of any of you, be he male or female: Ye are members, one of another: Those who have left their homes, or been driven out therefrom, or suffered harm in My Cause, or fought or been slain,- verily, I will blot out from them their iniquities, and admit them into Gardens with rivers flowing beneath;- A reward from the presence of Allah, and from His presence is the best of rewards." Ditto for 16:97

You asked for an example of equality and I provided one. And as always there are different interpretations which could be deemed valid. (eats, shoots and leaves).

A different translation...

3.195. And thus does their (All-Gracious and Generous) Lord answer them: "I do not leave to waste the work of any of you (engaged in doing good), whether male or female. (As males and females following the same way) you are all one from the other. Hence, those who have emigrated (in My cause), and been expelled from their homelands, and suffered hurt in My cause, and have fought and been killed, indeed I will blot out from them their evil deeds and will admit them into Gardens through which rivers flow, as a reward from God (with infinite Mercy and Power to fulfill whatever He promises). " With God lies the best reward.

If you can interpret that as meaning equality in martyrhood only, then you've a far better understanding of the Koran than I have. I don't see how the equality part and emigration/martyr part can be definitively be declared to be dependent on one another..

Otherwise in times of peace and everyday life, women are clearly and practically second class citizens in a "correct" Islamic society. Their roles are clear, their "disadvantages" are clear. Is there any sura or part of Hadith where a man can "pollute" a woman by his very touch? One could argue a drunk unbeliever could, but that would be his choice not his very biology

I'm not an Islamic scholar. I just did a quick google regarding equality and the same liberal scholar from the menstruation sura turned up. I've no idea about the rest of the things you mention.

Wibbs · 24-07-2010 12:16am

Abrasax wrote: »

Do you have the relevant suras at hand?

Well the most obvious one is http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/002.qmt.html#002.223 "Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; "So get up on them when you will. Of course do good deeds before, for yourselves.

Instructions for marriage and which women you can marry http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/004.qmt.html#004.024 "And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." So you can marry women who were captured as part of war. Nice. I suspect there were more pretty widows than not.

And the following sura "And whoso is not able to afford to marry free, believing women, let them marry from the believing maids whom your right hands possess. Allah knoweth best (concerning) your faith. Ye (proceed) one from another; so wed them by permission of their folk, and give unto them their portions in kindness, they being honest, not debauched nor of loose conduct. And if when they are honourably married they commit lewdness they shall incur the half of the punishment (prescribed) for free women (in that case). This is for him among you who feareth to commit sin. But to have patience would be better for you. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

or http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/023.qmt.html#023.005 "Who abstain from sex" followed by "Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (in their case) they are free from blame," so again slave women, war captives are fair game for nookie.

And http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/033.qmt.html#033.052 So lets say you have the full compliment of four wives and you still want some extra action? "It is not lawful for thee (to marry more) women after this, nor to change them for (other) wives, even though their beauty attract thee, except any thy right hand should possess: and Allah doth watch over all things" Again slave women are fair game. Ever wonder why although Islam on the surface says only four wives and that's your lot, yet many rich and powerful Islamic men in history could have harems?

OK then where are the suras saying women could have more than one husband, or some extra going on from "those who their right hand possess"? Well for a start they couldnt own slaves, other than as second in command to their husbands, brothers or fathers. Where are the x number of virgins in paradise for women?

The division of equality is pretty damn clear and I didnt even go near the Hadith/sunna

vibe666 · 24-07-2010 12:19am

wes wrote: »

Thanks, I am sure I didn't help the situation myself.

Sorry to hear that. Best of luck next time.

it's no bother, it might teach me to prioritise a little better next time.

only missed the pass mark by 8% and i was distracted and sleep deprived when i took it, so it's not a huge jump to get past the hump.

Wibbs · 24-07-2010 12:24am

Abrasax wrote: »

And as always there are different interpretations which could be deemed valid. (eats, shoots and leaves).

Agreed and today we see that very clearly. Problem is the holy books of the faiths all say these instructions are clear and for all time. The Islamic faith being the most clear about this point. Not a word can be changed(in the Quran) as it came from Allah. It makes plain that this stuff is clear and if it came from the God of the universe one would assume it was and is clear. E=MC2 needs little interpretation. It is a universal law.

irishconvert · 24-07-2010 12:29am

Wibbs wrote: »

and "They ask thee concerning women’s courses. Say: They are a hurt and a pollution: So keep away from women in their courses, and do not approach them until they are clean. But when they have purified themselves, ye may approach them in any manner, time, or place ordained for you by Allah. For Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean. " is not a bit daft to say the very least. That quote is saying from start to finish that they are unclean. More to the point its exclusively addressed to men and how men deal with women. Big shock as the whole thing is addressed to men and women are only a sideline. .

I just got home and there is a load of posts for me to read and try to respond to. I am about to his the sack but I coulnd't let this one go. Wibbs, this hadith is simply saying you should not have sex with your wife while she is on her period. There are three translations on the page you linked to and if you read all three translations then the meaning is clear. Why did you choose the translation which is most difficult to understand? You could have use the Pickthal translation:

They question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say: It is an illness, so let women alone at such times and go not in unto them till they are cleansed. And when they have purified themselves, then go in unto them as Allah hath enjoined upon you. Truly Allah loveth those who turn unto Him, and loveth those who have a care for cleanness.

I will try to pick up on the other points over the weekend.

irishconvert · 24-07-2010 12:33am

Terry wrote: »

Listen, you're quite obviously far more inteligent that I am.
I would just like to thank you for backing up my weak points with proper links and the like.

Not really when he seems to be distorting what the meaning of the quotes are, see my point above.

Terry wrote: »

You are also far more intelligent than the majority of those defending the mysoginist aspects of Islam, and that is why they have not even attempted to address the facts you have presented to them.

Erm no, probably cos some of us have a life outside boards :rolleyes:

Terry wrote: »

Kudos to you for taking the time to read up on Islam (I'm too lazy), and finding the facts which show that it is centered around men and to the detriment of women.

He read up but either he doesn't understand what he is reading or he is being misleading with his intrepretation of the quotes he has used.

Wibbs · 24-07-2010 12:50am

irishconvert wrote: »

I just got home and there is a load of posts for me to read and try to respond to. I am about to his the sack but I coulnd't let this one go. Wibbs, this hadith is simply saying you should not have sex with your wife while she is on her period. There are three translations on the page you linked to and if you read all three translations then the meaning is clear. Why did you choose the translation which is most difficult to understand? You could have use the Pickthal translation:

so menstruation is an illness now?

Plus given the other sura which seem pretty clear in all translations that women are "impure" at times and a man who comes in contact with them has to purify himself before prayer, then your contention seems the far less likely one tbh.
As for understanding, if this message is for all mankind and all time then it seems all to easy to misinterpret. If your contention is valid. I would also day that the truth is usually plain to see. If a Man can see the sky it's hard to mislead him into thinking it's purple with green spot. I've read the Quran and Hadith and quite a number of the other faiths philosophies and I'm just relaying my thoughts. Unlike many I'm directly quoting the original texts too.

Terry · 24-07-2010 1:04am

irishconvert wrote: »

Not really when he seems to be distorting what the meaning of the quotes are, see my point above.

Erm no, probably cos some of us have a life outside boards :rolleyes:

He read up but either he doesn't understand what he is reading or he is being misleading with his intrepretation of the quotes he has used.

I will ask again, why is it that women who are menstruating cannot pray?

I'm sure you have had enough time to go through the Koran to find an acceptable reason for this in the time since I first asked this question, but I have yet to receive an answer.

Why are menstruating women forbidden from praying?

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