Milsim exposure, letting people have a go

Firekitten

This is where less frequent battlesim style games come in... introduce the side of airsoft, keep it simple and can really be run in a lot of places/

Hivemind187

Puding wrote: »

have to agree, its why i see incurraging milsim as a very long term operation, there is no point trying to shoe horn everyone into the role as it does not work from my experience

i love the idea of a 50+ a side 24 hour weekend event in ireland right of the bat, but tbh i know in my heart of hearts that at this point in time it would not work well as the community in ireland needs to grow and mature, airsoft in ireland it seems is trying to jump to catch up with europe but it will just take time

also milsim is very time consuming to set up and run for sites its not a profitable option at the moment

lol, not profitable is an understatement.

I'd be happy to run a MilSlim intro thing but it would have to be special to make the required impact on people who are used to the run-n-gun style. It's like COD vs ARMA really. One is arguably ore realistic than the other and for some people thats where the fun is but for most its just the "balls-out-chuckles" that attracts them.

I have to agree that we are a long way from having the resources (logisticaly, economicaly and playr wise) to run a TA/Berget level game but on the small scale it might work a little better.

IN essence, similar to the SWAT LA game (given the right venue) you could establish a number of objectives and protocols to be followed. Add a dedicated OpFor of experienced (and honourable) players to pit the newbies against, flesh out with a few NPC's and stir the point occassionally with curveball sub-missions or discoverable content.

The trouble is you would still need at least 20-30 people for the newbies side alone, probably that many again for the OpFor, plus commanders etc. Not to mention the complexity of balancing a game on the fly like that, the level of marshalling you would need (less as a stick and more as a guide). It's a head scratcher but it's not impossible.

Venue, players, money. The triangle of pain for any event organiser.

OzCam

Hivemind187 wrote: »

So what - specifically is it that puts people off [MilSim]?

Aye, there's the rub. That's what we'd all like to know.

Puding

OzCam wrote: »

Aye, there's the rub. That's what we'd all like to know.

to say milsim has a problem that puts poeple off would mean that you assume milsim will be as popular as a normal skirmish which tbh i do not see it being, you pulling a sub group from an already small group of players within ireland im afraid

ol, not profitable is an understatement.

well aware of the cost for a business i was trying not to sound too negative thought

OzCam

A modest suggestion, if I may.

I've tried to run private days by starting with simple games in the morning and building up to more complicated games (MilSim light) in the afternoon. It doesn't always work, because it depends on the customers present on the day, and it does take some preparation, but when it does work it works really well.

So if more players are exposed to 1 or 2-hour games with things like medic rules and multiple objectives then they won't be so afraid to try a whole day of that style. Plus, they'll usually have got the spray-and-pray out of their system in the morning. The more people that have done at least an hour or two of MilSim style, however light, the more players we'll have for full events.

Introducing complications one game at a time works a lot better than asking people to make the jump from skirmish to MilSim in one go.

Puding

OzCam wrote: »

A modest suggestion, if I may.

I've tried to run private days by starting with simple games in the morning and building up to more complicated games (MilSim light) in the afternoon. It doesn't always work, because it depends on the customers present on the day, and it does take some preparation, but when it does work it works really well.

So if more players are exposed to 1 or 2-hour games with things like medic rules and multiple objectives then they won't be so afraid to try a whole day of that style. Plus, they'll usually have got the spray-and-pray out of their system in the morning. The more people that have done at least an hour or two of MilSim style, however light, the more players we'll have for full events.

Introducing complications one game at a time works a lot better than asking people to make the jump from skirmish to MilSim in one go.

we have used a similar type of structure for cork, get the run and gun out of people system in the morning and slowly introduce rules and aspects, its a nice way of doing it

Firekitten

OzCam wrote: »

Aye, there's the rub. That's what we'd all like to know.

Well James did mention that hotel room... But I didnt know rubbing was involved... :eek:

Chuck the Buck

OzCam wrote: »

Aye, there's the rub. That's what we'd all like to know.

It wouldn't by any chance be the attitudes of people on boards who play milsim?

(Daniel I'm not picking on you here with the quotes)

TheDoc wrote: »

Requirements for milsim are usually.
Midcaps.
Specific camoflauge
Specific equipment
Honor( seems lacking overall in this country :P )
Among other things, but mostly patience.

You don't need mids - you can use hicaps but with a lower ammo limit thus not forcing potential players to have to by a box of mid/low/real caps. How many people are going to want to have to drop 50 sheets on something they may never use again?

Specific camo? Yeah sure if you think that there are enough of your target market who happen to have two or more totally different camos, once again putting financial barriers in the way of new players. Give them arm bands to begin with.

Specific equipment - if you mean only a support gun is classed as a support gun (i.e. SAW vs stubby killer + box mag) thats perfect, if you mean one side uses western gun and the eastern style that could work too, assuming there are enough people with AKs and the like, if you mean vest etc then once again you're not aiming at new people.

TheDoc wrote: »

Milsim loadouts ( alot different to skirmishing ones)

Oh really? Other than then higher probability of the 'milsim' loadout being wedged full of mid/low/real caps it isn't. If you mean a very specific period dress then yes it is BUT thats no use to someone who wants to try out milsim (see my specific camo comment).


And now to the topic of attitude. Anyone remember the thread about the 'Nam style milsim games from back in the summer of 2008? I stopped reading it when some rocket scientist decided that one side should only use 0.2g bbs and the other 0.28g (it could have been 0.25g) bbs to replicate the trajectory drop of the different ammo used by the different sides in Vietnam.... It seems to be a running theme in all talk of milsim that those who play it are elite gods of airsoft and everyone else is crap (not making a dig at anyone just a wild sweeping generalisation that to me from my reading of boards is true). Making things complicated is all fine and dandy if the players want to be there and know what they're letting themselves in for, but for someone just trying it out make it simple.

As Pudding and Oz Cam have said above get a few sites to have a milsim game for the last 2-3 hours of the day (get the spray and pray out of their system before introducing them to pew-pew-pew-sneak-sneak-sneak action). And as for expecting people to go to NI to have a game it's a joke I hope, from what I see most people have a hard enough time going to a site a few miles away let alone trying to get to Pred.


Thats my rant for the month done

SligoAirsoft

Whats the story lads ?? this tread started out very positive and now from reading the last 2 pages it looks like you are all giving up before you even try ha ha

Where is the attitude "yes we can" to quote BOB the B

All anyone can do at the moment is speculate on both the pros and cons but until we give it a go we will never know how popular it could be, surly a one day event is not beyond the grasp of the Irish Airsoft Community so why be negative

bring back the 2:00am positive feedback from last night that's what I say

Firekitten

I think we can...

I propose we organise a committee to, with the input of the forum, work up a game scenario, event and operation to put on a 'beginers guilde to milsim' weekend... atleast something a litle differencr and scrnario based.


I would like to offer my self to this in some form. I've experience planning and putting events into operation on this scale, I feel it could be of use perhaps. Naturally, This is subject to the members choice.

I do nominate Hivemind, If he wishes to be.... He's one of the people that would be vital to this getting off the ground I feel.

evilrobotshane

SligoAirsoft wrote: »

Where is the attitude "yes we can" to quote BOB the B

Isn't that Barack the P?

surly a one day event is not beyond the grasp of the Irish Airsoft Community

It sure isn't; they run them twice a week in Portlaoise, of all places. One high-cap or as many regular mags as you like, no other gear restrictions. Straightforward rules but fairly deep play. Easy to get into and very rewarding.

TheDoc

Puding wrote: »

i think the point doc was trying to make was if a load of skirmishers turned up without the right mindset it would be a disaster and do more damage

Thats it alright

evilrobotshane

Also, South-East Airsoft Club ran an event back in the summer called Operation Summer Breeze, I think it was. Themed, linked scenarios, intended specifically as a milsim-lite, with some minor ammo restrictions and maybe some medic rules and\or delayed respawns, can't remember now.

It was only okay rather than great, but the point is, it's been done before and was fairly well-attended, considering (as in around 30 players I'd guess). It can be done because it has been.

Puding

Whats the story lads ?? this tread started out very positive and now from reading the last 2 pages it looks like you are all giving up before you even try ha ha

i would not call the last few pages negative they have been rather productive and level heading, the last few pages have just been relaistic, there is normal a lot of talk and no action with boards so important to keep people grounded at times

Firekitten

30 players isnt well attended.... not by the targets we're looking at here and international standards... 30 is considered a flop

Stercus Accidit

When Doc posted those requirements, they are pretty easy infact.

Camo- Specifics are usually greens versus tans, and maybe blacks too, its handy to do and provides a clear visual difference.

Equipment- M4's and nato gear versus ak's and the likes, thats even more than is needed often, there is some give here, the objective is to root out the stubby bum bandit or AUG wielding vietcong fighter and its inherant lack of realism, but I doubt you'd be turned away on the day if you made the basic effort.
In the case of saw's and the likes, restricting gunners to actual unwieldy support weapons is important, cmag on any aul muck doesn't cut it.

Mids- High caps and real capacity is a bit awkward, most people dont have 8-10 hi-caps, and mids are cheap, mid caps are a decent rule to have without being unfair.

Right Attitude- most important, I never see arguments at these games, and the gameplay is always interesting, you get players playing for the experience and honour, not some individualistic ego driven goal, its a group experience.


Milsim is easy to do to an enjoyable standard.

Firekitten

Nah sam, too detailed still.

The Vast majority of milsim games in the UK, separate by camo... Deserts vs woodland... etc.

weapons are generally NEVER a factor.

However, at a specific THEME game, that can be... like the Tour of Duty nam games.. no ris, no optics on m4s, aks for vc... etc. and 'as close to accurate loadouts as possible'.

Thats a theme.

but for a starting game showing people battlesim/milsim, thats far too far imo.

Bring what you like... but a scope does not a sniper make, and a box mag does not turn your stubby thriller into an m2 browning

evilrobotshane

International standards have nothing to do whatsoever with what we're talking about here - international standards include Berget, which probably has more players than there are airsofters in Ireland. Maybe international standards could apply based on some complicated formula of percentages of national players attending modified by considerations for distance or whatever, but that doesn't achieve anything.

Point is, it's as many players as I've seen at any Irish milsim event I've been at, I've played games with 8 players (total) that were good, and since it DID achieve its stated objectives, I'd say that makes it a success.

Rhinocharge

Folks as some of ye know, I've been looking into the logistics for a while now regarding a large scale event.
Can I ask how many bodies are we ( as a community ) trying to sell the concept to?
100, 200, 300+ ?

Type of venue, location, infrastructure?

Facilities to be offered?

Take it from one whom knows, it's a huge undertaking, but not an impossible one. If ye need a hand, I'm up for it.:):):)

Firekitten

evilrobotshane wrote: »

International standards have nothing to do whatsoever with what we're talking about here - international standards include Berget, which probably has more players than there are airsofters in Ireland. Maybe international standards could apply based on some complicated formula of percentages of national players attending modified by considerations for distance or whatever, but that doesn't achieve anything.

Point is, it's as many players as I've seen at any Irish milsim event I've been at, I've played games with 8 players (total) that were good, and since it DID achieve its stated objectives, I'd say that makes it a success.

By international standards, I refer to the number of players in other locations, that attend a game of similar size the the projected one. For this type of event. Not big international games.

Puding

right guys, know things are going a little of the rails

from my eyes docs aim was in encourage milsim in ireland

know where onto events and planning and committees, im going to point out the obvious thing hear, at the moment there is not the player base to make a medium to large milsim event work at the moment, know if you want to believe this or not is up to you, milsim as a style of play needs to be encouraged and grown first and create a strong base, what is it with ireland and people wanting things to happen over night


on some other points

general milsim will have camo restrictions but normal dark light divide or something to remove the need for armbands aeg selection is not normally an issue, aeg selection would not normally be an issue other than the use of support weapons, support weapon normally have to be support replicas no m4 with box mags nut nothing heavy

then there is themed milsim (and theme team) airsoft which is a little more restrictive with uniform and aeg restrictions, this is nearest to re-enactment in a way examples would be cold war/nam/ww2

Stercus Accidit

If there were a milsim organised with this in mind myself and I'm sure others would be interested, as has been said, keep it simple enough, the basic enjoyable elements of milsim are easy enough to achieve and speak for themselves as to why people enjoy that type of game so much.

Vents

Thanks to Pudding for putting the breaks on a little.

Perhaps we need to up the level of battlesim on skirmish days first. Bridge the perceived gap between Milsim and speedball (both have their place).

Remember Folks "Airsoft" is the medium in which many games are played. People need to find the right game for them and have the option to try them all. If Milsim is in need of an upserge in interest, a stepping stone for the masses of skirmish days would help. IMO:)

SligoAirsoft

Puding wrote: »

right guys, know things are going a little of the rails

from my eyes docs aim was in encourage milsim in ireland

know where onto events and planning and committees, im going to point out the obvious thing hear, at the moment there is not the player base to make a medium to large milsim event work at the moment, know if you want to believe this or not is up to you, milsim as a style of play needs to be encouraged and grown first and create a strong base, what is it with ireland and people wanting things to happen over night


on some other points

general milsim will have camo restrictions but normal dark light divide or something to remove the need for armbands aeg selection is not normally an issue, aeg selection would not normally be an issue other than the use of support weapons, support weapon normally have to be support replicas no m4 with box mags nut nothing heavy

then there is themed milsim (and theme team) airsoft which is a little more restrictive with uniform and aeg restrictions, this is nearest to re-enactment in a way examples would be cold war/nam/ww2

Mate I tend to agree with you lets walk before we run and to be honest a happy medium between the action of skirmishing and milsim would be the right way to start in other words the killer of milsim is the game becomming stagnent for example I have chatted to people that were in Berget before and they love milsim but said because of the sheer size of the event it got a bit boring with little to no contact with the apposing side.

ROLL ON SENNYBRIDGE

Rhinocharge

Puding wrote: »

at the moment there is not the player base to make a medium to large milsim event work at the moment,

Was not to referring to milsim per say, airsoft as a whole, the style of play can be decided another time. A large event wouldn't hurt the community, plus it would give our little community something to stride for.

The Gathering at G-Tac was a success in the past, large scale events have the potential to work. At this stage the organisation of such is still very much in draft form. albeit several pages long, but draft nonetheless.

If we don't try, we've already failed.

Puding

Rhinocharge wrote: »

Was not to referring to milsim per say, airsoft as a whole, the style of play can be decided another time. A large event wouldn't hurt the community, plus it would give our little community something to stride for.

The Gathering at G-Tac was a success in the past, large scale events have the potential to work. At this stage the organisation of such is still very much in draft form. albeit several pages long, but draft nonetheless.

If we don't try, we've already failed.

and if you not talking about milsim 'per say' it would be nice for you not to throw more mud into the water with this thread, this thread has nice information and good direction about milsim

yes gathering worked and large events are possible in ireland but we are specificity talking about milsim, and at the moment the two are separate

if you would like to talk about the organising a large airsoft in Ireland it might be best to start a new thread

sorry to sound a little sharp but i have a little hope for this thread

Rhinocharge

Puding wrote: »

and that my friend is for another thread and another discussion, it would be nice not to throw more mud into the water with this thread, this thread has nice information and good direction

yes gathering worked and large events are possible in ireland but we are specificity talking about milsim, and at the moment the two are separate

if you would like to talk about the organising a large airsoft in Ireland would be best to start a new thread

Fair enough. The point I was trying to make was, an event could be organised where by the concept of milsim could be sold to the average airsofter. The concept could be a gradual introduction of the changes of play style.

The easiest way to do so, would be to hold such events at participating sites on a rotational basis. Each site/club could introduce the scenario to their own members/customers. Same set of rules for each event. Therefore the community would get the opportunity to sample such an event at several locations rather than just the handful.

The problem as I see it, is not the style of play, but the lack of opportunity to sample it. Consider it as a tasting at your local supermarket. A try, before you buy.

Rhinocharge

Puding wrote: »

sorry to sound a little sharp but i have a little hope for this thread

No need to apologise mate. Perhaps we need the imput of some of the newer element to airsoft. A different viewpoint perhaps.

Puding

Rhinocharge wrote: »

Fair enough. The point I was trying to make was, an event could be organised where by the concept of milsim could be sold to the average airsofter. The concept could be a gradual introduction of the changes of play style.

The easiest way to do so, would be to hold such events at participating sites on a rotational basis. Each site/club could introduce the scenario to their own members/customers. Same set of rules for each event. Therefore the community would get the opportunity to sample such an event at several locations rather than just the handful.

The problem as I see it, is not the style of play, but the lack of opportunity to sample it. Consider it as a tasting at your local supermarket. A try, before you buy.

which is what pritty much a lot of people have been dicussing in this thread, way to make it easy for indiiduals to experiance milsim and see if it is for them a soft introduction as it where

Folks as some of ye know, I've been looking into the logistics for a while now regarding a large scale event.
Can I ask how many bodies are we ( as a community ) trying to sell the concept to?
100, 200, 300+ ?

you started off with talking about a large event and then mentioned that the event was not specificity about milsim, both seem to contradict what had been talked about over the last 3 or 4 pages about small introduction and development and that a large event right of the bat could be a bad thing

from talking to others the best thing is not to have anything to formal everyone is on about multipule sites, grand events and schemes, sorry but 9/10 they go no where

work from the KISS theory, get people talking about milsim, get players who are interested with experience to help run small games and maybe a day at sites, once the player base increase you can them move on

Perhaps we need the imput of some of the newer element to airsoft. A different viewpoint perhaps

sorry i do not understand?

SligoAirsoft

Rhinocharge wrote: »

No need to apologise mate. Perhaps we need the imput of some of the newer element to airsoft. A different viewpoint perhaps.

Lads, can we not just take the best of the experiences we've had from events in England and abroad and introduce these elements to the younger airsoft players who may not get the opportunity to travel and experience them, I've been in Redbarn and watched the lads tell stories of Sennybridge and the likes and watched the way the younger ones hang on every word....

Lets not loose track of what this tread wants to accomplish