Milsim exposure, letting people have a go

Puding

but isn't the g36 also used as a support weapon in the real world?

mg36, tbh there seen as a little bit of a cheat in milsim circles , never really banded in rules beacuse they exist but seen as bad form as it where its the same with the rpk, rpk is only really tolerated in events because its the only russian support weapon really commercially available at the moment

and that is the centre point of milsim when it comes down to it, its about doing somthing like not using an mg36 even thought its not in the rules because its the 'right' thing to do, sacrifice the competitive edge and practical edge for the theme or over all experience

i know it sounds all yoda like but its hard to explain and get over the point that milsim is a mind set and playing style not a rule set of yes and no's of what you can and can not do, the best thing to do is just go out and have fun, experiment, try things out see what work and what you like

Spooky-Vinny

Puding wrote: »

you will have those same worrys no matter how upgraded your aeg is do i open fire or not

i get what your saying 100% put i can not really say this nicely but you need to stop worrying about the competitive angle and being on a level with say other players in terms of aeg, in milsim you can complete and objective without firing a shot, in milsim the sides will not be level at times and the objectives will not be level so the fact that your aeg is not as upgraded as the next guy means relativity little to the bigger picture, just ask the guys at berget and to some extent sennybridge, you do not need to upgrade to be competitive, is 328 can go up against 400 then you will be fine

this is going to sound really bad, but if your that worried about being on a

thank you
but my gun is at about 0.2-0.3 jules
plus i feel im a good player(dont mean to be so big headed) but can not be at my best potential because of poor engaging ability,
where som people can pop out and shoot about 20 BBs in one second of esposure, i can only shoot about 5 BBs, i have put this to the test by comparing my AEG with a better AEG and the difference is 20 BBs have a better chance of a multi kill and confirm a hit on those "morons"
where 5 BBs is just too little for a gun and go, especialy when those 5 BBs might not travel that direction for long or travel as far!
I love the feeling of being sure.
And with the new Ban, i believe it would be harder for me to upgrade
xXx

Spooky-Vinny

Puding wrote: »

mg36, tbh there seen as a little bit of a cheat in milsim circles , never really banded in rules beacuse they exist but seen as bad form as it where its the same with the rpk, rpk is only really tolerated in events because its the only russian support weapon really commercially available at the moment

I don't understand why the RPK would be thought to be seen as a bad form,
It's a Proper MG in the real world used by several armys though!
xXx

Puding

but my gun is at about 0.2-0.3 jules

well changes it a little but the points still stand, what make is it?, i would get that looked at for even normal skirmishes, if its a clone or high end brand it sounds like you have a major problem

Puding

Spooky-Vinny wrote: »

I don't understand why the RPK would be thought to be seen as a bad form,
It's a Proper MG in the real world used by several armys though!
xXx

not really an mg in real life and this does not have much impact anyway on airsoft, considering the other main support weapons seen in milsim would be m60 and m249 the rpk actually offers major advantages in terms of weight and size considering is just a beefed up ak with a box mag in airsoft, as i said from experience its just seen as bad form to steel a cricket turn of phrase

as i said its not about any hard or fast rule set

Spooky-Vinny

Puding wrote: »

well changes it a little but the points still stand, what make is it?, i would get that looked at for even normal skirmishes, if its a clone or high end brand it sounds like you have a major problem

I shall PM you about the situation of my gun and maybe you have a lil solution to my depressing situation
xXx

Puding

Spooky-Vinny wrote: »

I shall PM you about the situation of my gun and maybe you have a lil solution to my depressing situation
xXx

will try and help if i can

Firekitten

RPK and Mg36 are both seen as alowable due to having real world variants. There is never a definition that says 'must be belt fed'

Stonewolf

I will attend an event such as the one proposed in the 17 million pages since I went into town earlier. Not only that but I'll attend even if it's scheduled against a major Lorien Trust event because I support milsim and want to see it get a good following in Ireland.

I'll also volunteer for OpFor, I'd hardly consider myself a "veteran milsimmer" but I've been to a few Jeb games.

As for site you could try asking ABZ if they'd be up for it as their site is quite nice.

Although the MG36 was cancelled and a different H&K piece selected instead apparently the German army issues the CMags developed for it for regular use with the G36k. Still just vulgar though, I'd never use a CMag on one :rolleyes:

Puding

Firekitten wrote: »

RPK and Mg36 are both seen as allowable due to having real world variants. There is never a definition that says 'must be belt fed'

as i said above as well never seen a rules against them as they exist in the real world, but this little topic does offer a little insight into players and outlooks, seen people use an mg 36 in milsim without issue using it as a support weapon but this was down to the theme of there team more than anything else, but there are other that simply see it as a loophole where they can get to play with a box mag on an assault rifile,

am i using it because it fits with my teams theme or the theme of the game or am i simply using it as it gives me an edge? the answer to the question would more than likely tell you how suited you are to milsim in a way, wow you can pay 100s of euros for this type of stuff at the shrink :eek:

Spooky-Vinny

Puding wrote: »

am i using it because it fits with my teams theme or the theme of the game or am i simply using it as it gives me an edge? the answer to the question would more than likely tell you how suited you are to milsim in a way, wow you can pay 100s of euros for this type of stuff at the shrink :eek:

I like this answer!
xXx

Growler!!!

Spooky-Vinny wrote: »

i can understand your point but i still stand by my point where it would not be as good fun as there are moments in airsoft where i would be sadened by the fact that i would havto decide if i would hit this (possibly moving) target and if he is in range of my gun, where i could make a complete mess of the situation and just expose myself.

Spooky - The above just got me thinking more about the difference between my normal style of play and milsim. I think its finally sank into me skull.

A little story might help. Im at a typical skirmish and I'm the first in a line of guys moving through the woods. I see one of the enemy ahead as you did above and i think "full auto - lets have em" BRAP! But its not a good shot and i've missed. Now the enemy know I'm here and a firefight breaks out at range between the 2 groups. Various calls of take your hits etc and the fun ends quickly.

Now imagine the same senario except this time Im lead scout for my section advancing towards our objective. I spot the enemy moving across my front. I signal for my section to Halt and get down. I now have to think, can I make this shot? If i do make the shot it will alert everyone to our position? We wont make it to our objective if we get into a firefight. I decide to let him pass and then spot the rest of his patrol. Using my fieldcraft I remain concealed and they pass without a shot. I've now gathered some intel as to the strenght and composition of the enemy and their axis of advance to pass up the chain of command!

Now that sounds like a ####load more fun. I now see what Puding and Hivermind were saying about mindset in regard to milsim.

Lads - ye have me converted.:D

Spooky-Vinny

Growler!!! wrote: »

Spooky - The above just got me thinking more about the difference between my normal style of play and milsim. I think its finally sank into me skull.

A little story might help. Im at a typical skirmish and I'm the first in a line of guys moving through the woods. I see one of the enemy ahead as you did above and i think "full auto - lets have em" BRAP! But its not a good shot and i've missed. Now the enemy know I'm here and a firefight breaks out at range between the 2 groups. Various calls of take your hits etc and the fun ends quickly.

Now imagine the same senario except this time Im lead scout for my section advancing towards our objective. I spot the enemy moving across my front. I signal for my section to Halt and get down. I now have to think, can I make this shot? If i do make the shot it will alert everyone to our position? We wont make it to our objective if we get into a firefight. I decide to let him pass and then spot the rest of his patrol. Using my fieldcraft I remain concealed and they pass without a shot. I've now gathered some intel as to the strenght and composition of the enemy and their axis of advance to pass up the chain of command!

Now that sounds like a ####load more fun. I now see what Puding and Hivermind were saying about mindset in regard to milsim.

Lads - ye have me converted.:D

i understand you completely and i dont mean to sound so nieve but remember.. the situation can occure in the opposite way around and i would like to have a option to make myself as usefull as i can be in a firefight if it does break out.
I dont mean to sound so negative but you cant imagen how absolutly terrible my gun is ='(
xXx

Firekitten

Growler!!! wrote: »

Spooky - The above just got me thinking more about the difference between my normal style of play and milsim. I think its finally sank into me skull.

A little story might help. Im at a typical skirmish and I'm the first in a line of guys moving through the woods. I see one of the enemy ahead as you did above and i think "full auto - lets have em" BRAP! But its not a good shot and i've missed. Now the enemy know I'm here and a firefight breaks out at range between the 2 groups. Various calls of take your hits etc and the fun ends quickly.

Now imagine the same senario except this time Im lead scout for my section advancing towards our objective. I spot the enemy moving across my front. I signal for my section to Halt and get down. I now have to think, can I make this shot? If i do make the shot it will alert everyone to our position? We wont make it to our objective if we get into a firefight. I decide to let him pass and then spot the rest of his patrol. Using my fieldcraft I remain concealed and they pass without a shot. I've now gathered some intel as to the strenght and composition of the enemy and their axis of advance to pass up the chain of command!

Now that sounds like a ####load more fun. I now see what Puding and Hivermind were saying about mindset in regard to milsim.

Lads - ye have me converted.:D

Or you take cover, and sucessfully avoid the contact, sneak undetected to the objective before taking it from under the Enemy's nose.... Far more satisfying. Airsoft is not all about the 'brap'. I gain emense satisfaction from being where they expect me least.

One milsim was UK forces in Bosnia. Myself and my spotter sucessfully navigated the site, undetected and identified the enemy forces 'terrorist training camp'. (One of the main UK forces objectives for that weekend. Calling in the fast movers to bomb the camp destroying it without firing a shot or being seen... The sentries were baffled, the command were baffled, and none could work out how it had been done considering the main force was in heavy contact half a mile way. THAT, is satisfying... thats milsim.

What separates milsim from sunday games is the emphasis on objectives over kills. The rifle is a means to an end... you shoot people to avoid being shot yourself, or to complete the objective sucessfully... If you dont have to use the weapon, all the better. The airsofters magpie instinct to fire as soon as they see the enemy needs to be controled to suceed. It has its place, of course, but this is part of the mentality of the milsim player. Objectives = victory, not number of kills.

Hivemind187

Firekitten wrote: »

RPK and Mg36 are both seen as alowable due to having real world variants. There is never a definition that says 'must be belt fed'

The MG36 is actually a HBAR concept really. Its receiver and barrel are both heavier and reinforced compared to that of the standard AR variant of the G36. Kind of like an M16 with a drum mag, you wont use it for sustained fire unless you swap out the barrel and reinforce some parts because it would rattle and melt itself apart.

In otherwords, the rifle can be used with a c-mag but it's goig to be restricted to the usual 600 rounds.

There is a tradition of allowing the support gunner to carry more rounds and I suppose even in MilsLim it should be continued. I'd suggest a maximum of 1200 rounds divided anyway the player chooses amongst mags and boxes.

Stercus Accidit

Milsim is a bit awkward for support guns, there are no mid cap drum or box mags, and standard magazines are usually in the normal assault rifle size.

There are no 42 round mags for the AUG hbar, no 40 rounders for the rpk(there are rpk74 45 rounders, but I won't use em in the wrong variant :P) and the mg36 only has a c-mag.

Most people only own one drum or box mag if they do and you cant really limit a support gunner to 100 rounds entirely, so you would nearly have to let them load up their full quota of ammo into one drum. In the case of using mid-caps, where you have no advantage over assault rifle users, an increased overall ammo quota seems fair.

What is the normal practice, all ammo in one drum or twice as many mids caps?

Hivemind187

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Milsim is a bit awkward for support guns, there are no mid cap drum or box mags, and standard magazines are usually in the normal assault rifle size.

There are no 42 round mags for the AUG hbar, no 40 rounders for the rpk(there are rpk74 45 rounders, but I won't use em in the wrong variant :P) and the mg36 only has a c-mag.

Most people only own one drum or box mag if they do and you cant really limit a support gunner to 100 rounds entirely, so you would nearly have to let them load up their full quota of ammo into one drum. In the case of using mid-caps, where you have no advantage over assault rifle users, an increased overall ammo quota seems fair.

What is the normal practice, all ammo in one drum or twice as many mids caps?

Either or. The limit being placed on the total number of rounds.

The RoE system says to use up to three box mags loaded to 100-200 rounds and a full compliment of standard mags but we're using a hardened rules set compared to the one we would use for an event like this.

Scrambles_

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Milsim is a bit awkward for support guns, there are no mid cap drum or box mags, and standard magazines are usually in the normal assault rifle size.

There are no 42 round mags for the AUG hbar, no 40 rounders for the rpk(there are rpk74 45 rounders, but I won't use em in the wrong variant :P) and the mg36 only has a c-mag.

Most people only own one drum or box mag if they do and you cant really limit a support gunner to 100 rounds entirely, so you would nearly have to let them load up their full quota of ammo into one drum. In the case of using mid-caps, where you have no advantage over assault rifle users, an increased overall ammo quota seems fair.

What is the normal practice, all ammo in one drum or twice as many mids caps?

I would have imagined that the support gunner (and sniper?) roles are actually a lot more effective in this type of game? As commented earlier, in your average skirmish many people are already carrying literally thousands of rounds, possibly in box mags. At least here a SAW, for example, would have some of it's real-life benefits, instead of just having to reload less... no?

Do they get no 'more ammo' allowance?

Firekitten

Hivemind and Sam:

Support guns are generally allowed 'one full box magazine' as a standard rule. Not really akward at all.... Milsim is NOT about midcaps, we need to focus away from that. Theres an ammo limit to emphasise the mindset, but not to make it 'realistic' in that way... Forcing people to place shots creates the right atmosphere, whereas 30000 rounds each would result in spraysoft as usual.

As i mention in the other topic, box fed, or drum fed rifles use 1 drum or box full as a rule, and things like the rpk74 and LSW (L86a2) get two hicaps full from the times ive seen it happen. Support guns are fairy well covered in the rules, we've had em decades. Essentially the support gunner is given more ammunition allowing them to physically support.

Never actually seen a Hbar in use (aug) atleast, the mg36 was a one off... and barely qualified after a heated debate.

sliabh

Wild idea, and one I know that would have a few problems to implement, but as most people use M4 variants, could you look at providing a huge stack of midcaps for sale (and possibly to rent) on the day for people who are new/unsure of milsim/cash strapped.

You wouldn't necessarily make mids mandatory, but it would allow people to try them out in the day?

Firekitten

sliabh wrote: »

Wild idea, and one I know that would have a few problems to implement, but as most people use M4 variants, could you look at providing a huge stack of midcaps for sale (and possibly to rent) on the day for people who are new/unsure of milsim/cash strapped.

You wouldn't necessarily make mids mandatory, but it would allow people to try them out in the day?

You dont need midcaps.... and boxes of mag mids are like 40 notes, hardly a huge issue. Sites tend to apply ammo limits, not what you carry them in.

Plus most dont use m4 variants The most common aeg in Ireland is the g36

sliabh

Firekitten wrote: »

Plus most dont use m4 variants The most common aeg in Ireland is the g36

Is it? As a G36 wielder myself I have always felt like a bit of an outcast coz I almost never meet a likeminded sould. I must be hanging around the wrong sites!

Spooky-Vinny

sliabh wrote: »

Is it? As a G36 wielder myself I have always felt like a bit of an outcast coz I almost never meet a likeminded sould. I must be hanging around the wrong sites!

I would agree with you, although when i started it seemed that the G36C was the most comman gun, but lately i feel fairly unique =D
lol
although the G36 or G36K is ALOT rarer it seems.
xXx

Firekitten

JG G36 line is one of the biggest sellers in Ireland from my understanding... Though everyone is becoming a fashion addict and getting magpull m4s... They will learn...


Perhaps we can hop back on the topic of the 'big beginers milsim event' etc? We seem to have drifted off.... Also, for mislim weapon/kit/ discussion we can use the 'Milsim 101 article' thread for that purpose to de clutter?

sliabh

Spooky-Vinny wrote: »

I would agree with you, although when i started it seemed that the G36C was the most comman gun, but lately i feel fairly unique =D
lol
although the G36 or G36K is ALOT rarer it seems.
xXx

I am a G36K man myself. It's even rarer than an AUG. But we are getting well off topic now.


To drag things back, although I am very remote, I would be happy to help as well in whatever way I can. I might even try and get back from Austria for a gig like this to appear as an OpFor. (Would that count as international attendence?)

Firekitten

sliabh wrote: »

To drag things back, although I am very remote, I would be happy to help as well in whatever way I can. I might even try and get back from Austria for a gig like this to appear as an OpFor. (Would that could as international attendence?)

Heh it would. I'm in England at the moment myself...

hrta

I still think hi caps, are a bad idea, and it's a bit unfare on players with mid caps, as they have to change out mags, which i think adds to the game, and i can see the new comer trying milsim for the first time, still going a bit mad, as he has all his ammo in a hi cap mag, or am i missing some thing here.

Paul.

Firekitten

Yes, because at the end of the day, after he empties his hicap, hes out. the midcap player has three mags for that one hicap... if he wants to blat it all away its fine, but you get 300 rounds (or some arbitary figure), evenatually hicap boy runs out mr midcap can just reload and go slot him... Its a mentality thing, not mag size... changing out mags is really no big deal under fire.

Puding

from my reading and understanding the reason for including a 1 hi cap or mid caps rule was for the introduction to milsim events, milsim light as others have called it, a way to make it the cheapest and easiest way for people to try milsim

know i do actually agree with you paul but i can see the logic behind making it easier for others to start off

Stonewolf

Should probably also make it clear to people that you can't bring ammo into the field.