Whats the beef with 7/8 string guitars?

rcaz

Seziertisch, we're never gonna agree, so why don't we call it quits?

Seziertisch wrote:

at least I am arguing from experience.

I'll thank you not to make assumptions about me

Seziertisch

El Pr0n wrote: »

Seziertisch, we're never gonna agree, so why don't we call it quits?



I'll thank you not to make assumptions about me

What do you mean call it quits? I'm right.

rcaz

Seziertisch wrote: »

What do you mean call it quits? I'm right.

I disagree with you.

Seziertisch

My arguments are solid. You started by saying that people stick to the old favourites out of habit/tradition. I said there were reasons for them doing this and then stated the reasons.

Also, you said yourself in another thread that Jazzmasters and Jaguars need to be strung with heavy gauge strings (as much to sort the bridge issues as much as anything else). Regardless of what kind of music someone plays this is a pretty big issue. A lot of guys don't want to use/can't use 11s or 12s. A Strat or Les Paul can be set up and made to work using any gauge, you've said yourself that this isn't true of the Jazzmaster.

eoin5

I know a few 5 & 6 string bass players but I only know one 7 string guitar player. From talking to bassists I get the impression that they are a lot more open to the concept of an extra string compared to guitarists. I get the vibe that even among guitarists they view anything more than six strings as virtuoso country.

rcaz

Seziertisch wrote: »

My arguments are solid. You started by saying that people stick to the old favourites out of habit/tradition. I said there were reasons for them doing this and then stated the reasons.

I disagree, I think (and I'm perfectly entitled to do so) that it is down to tradition/ignorance. My friend complained that my Jazzmaster didn't sound 'metal' when he played some Metallica riffs on it right after I got it, so I told him to pretend to be angry and make a James Hetfield face and play agressively, and all of a sudden, it started to sound 'metal'; 90% of your tone is in your fingers.

Seziertisch wrote: »

Also, you said yourself in another thread that Jazzmasters and Jaguars need to be strung with heavy gauge strings (as much to sort the bridge issues as much as anything else). Regardless of what kind of music someone plays this is a pretty big issue. A lot of guys don't want to use/can't use 11s or 12s. A Strat or Les Paul can be set up and made to work using any gauge, you've said yourself that this isn't true of the Jazzmaster.

Maybe I should have clarified, you can set up a JM however you like with some modification (neck shim, Mastery/Mustang bridge), and since neck shims are common, sometimes even factory, practice on bolt-on-neck instruments, I don't think it's much of a mod, and the bridge is a matter of taste, just like the string guage. With a very careful setup, 9s and 10s can be made work, but I don't have the patience for very careful setup work, and I prefer 12s. I was speaking from experience in the other threads, of course.

Patricide

I love 5 string basses(if i had my way all my basses would be 5 string), gives you extra places to go when writing a line if needs be or when you want to throw in a lower octave when your playing a ballad or something it sounds great. Also wouldn't mind a 6 string bass, only played one ever and at first it was a bit strange but i found it really useful for playing chords on the bass.

As for 7 string guitars i never seen why people were so against them, Its not like your taking anything away from a 6 string guitar, your just adding more possibilities into it. I mean sure if you learned your scales from shapes alone and dont know how to bring it onto the B string or something thats kind of understandable but its not that hard to figure it out and to get used to it.

My next guitar will most certainly be a 7 string.The only reason id buy a 6er now is if it were a PRS, but as some of ye on here already know i have a major thing for those guitars!!

Seziertisch

El Pr0n wrote: »

I disagree, I think (and I'm perfectly entitled to do so) that it is down to tradition/ignorance. My friend complained that my Jazzmaster didn't sound 'metal' when he played some Metallica riffs on it right after I got it, so I told him to pretend to be angry and make a James Hetfield face and play agressively, and all of a sudden, it started to sound 'metal'; 90% of your tone is in your fingers.

This is exactly what I have been saying. Your friend had to make an extra effort above and beyond what he usually makes to get the guitar to respond the way he wanted it to. I never said it was a physical impossibility to play metal on a Jazzmaster, just that it wasn't suited to it. Your friend's experience bears that out. I presume on his own guitar he could have just picked it up and it would have been instant metal. I would also say that if it was a Les Paul we were talking about, no extra effort would have been required.

El Pr0n wrote: »

Maybe I should have clarified, you can set up a JM however you like with some modification (neck shim, Mastery/Mustang bridge), and since neck shims are common, sometimes even factory, practice on bolt-on-neck instruments, I don't think it's much of a mod, and the bridge is a matter of taste, just like the string guage. With a very careful setup, 9s and 10s can be made work, but I don't have the patience for very careful setup work, and I prefer 12s. I was speaking from experience in the other threads, of course.

A lot of lads don't want that hassle. Shimming the neck, changing the bridge to make it more stable/allow for lighter string gauges, I mean these are things which are unnecessary on the more traditionally popular guitars. If I remember correctly you also said you used loctite to hold the bridge (or saddles) in place, who really want's that? Ok, there are those who are willing to make that effort, but if they had a choice I imagine they would prefer to not have to. These are things you would not have to do, even on the cheapest Strat or Les Paul copy.

Demeyes

In fairness the traditionally more popular guitars are not without their own flaws. Les pauls are set neck so a badly set neck is fecked and they are weak at the headstock joint. Also the bridge ain't to everyone's taste because it isn't as adjustable as other fixed bridges. Loads of strats come stock with a shim already used, the vintage 2 point trem are very easy to knock a guitar out of tune, and single coils have bad hum.
Strats and LPs aren't common with the average joe because he thinks they are a superior guitar that can cover a lot of tonal ground, he buys them because he thinks it will make him a rockstar because that's what he saw Page or Hendrix play, and they only played them because that was most of what was available back in the day. Also to be honest, lots of people don't play Jazzmasters because they look ridiculous!

This has gone a fair bit off the point though!

darrenw5094

Don't knock the 7 string until you tried one. There should be a top quality 7 string for sale somewhere around here.

Zombienosh

darrenw5094 wrote: »

Don't knock the 7 string until you tried one. There should be a top quality 7 string for sale somewhere around here.

AH hah! i see what u did there, very clever.

I got the S7320, think its beast.

darrenw5094

AlcoholicA wrote: »

AH hah! i see what u did there, very clever.

I got the S7320, think its beast.

A spare is always handy to have in case of an accident.

Voodu Child

I don't have one, but at the end of the day its about extended range, extended possibilities, new chord voicings or new ways of fingering licks/runs.

That can't be a bad thing. If you choose not to want one thats cool, but to dismiss them as a stupid idea just because you don't like Korn, well, thats a pretty closed minded attitude. Not something you'd expect from a musician, but I guess its true that guitarists can be pretty traditionalist.

demanufactured

DaDumTish wrote: »

its like drummers

any time you see a drummer with more than one splash cymbal - back away slowly

:D

lol.ooooooooooookkkkkkkkkkkkk

fobster

Barre chords are a pain enough on the 6-string, but a seven string would be good for the low stuff without the heavy string gauge needed on a 6-string. Hmm...

rcaz

Seziertisch wrote: »

This is exactly what I have been saying. Your friend had to make an extra effort above and beyond what he usually makes to get the guitar to respond the way he wanted it to. I never said it was a physical impossibility to play metal on a Jazzmaster, just that it wasn't suited to it. Your friend's experience bears that out. I presume on his own guitar he could have just picked it up and it would have been instant metal. I would also say that if it was a Les Paul we were talking about, no extra effort would have been required.

So you don't put any effort into your playing? You don't change technique at all if you wanted to switch from something like light jazz to heavy metal? Les Pauls do all the work for you? You're talking out your arse on this point. Playing music requires an appropriate approach and varying technique, this is a fact, regardless of the instrument in question.

Seziertisch wrote: »

A lot of lads don't want that hassle. Shimming the neck, changing the bridge to make it more stable/allow for lighter string gauges, I mean these are things which are unnecessary on the more traditionally popular guitars. If I remember correctly you also said you used loctite to hold the bridge (or saddles) in place, who really want's that? Ok, there are those who are willing to make that effort, but if they had a choice I imagine they would prefer to not have to. These are things you would not have to do, even on the cheapest Strat or Les Paul copy.

Japanese Jazzmasters come with cheap hardware, specifically the bridge and the vibrato piece. From a few months of playing hard on a badly-setup bridge, I have worn down the low E saddle. But I'd say if you don't want the 'hassle' of taking a personal interest in and getting to know the ins and outs of your instrument, you're not a serious player.

Seziertisch

El Pr0n wrote: »

So you don't put any effort into your playing? You don't change technique at all if you wanted to switch from something like light jazz to heavy metal? Les Pauls do all the work for you?

Well, yeah, that was essentially your friends experience. He presumably played your Jazzmaster the way he usually plays but found it didn't respond the way he wanted it to. I have also never heard of nor seen a metal band playing Jazzmasters. I know no traditional rock guys that play Jazzmasters. Sh1t, Johnny Marr chooses Jazzs and Jags for exactly the reason that they aren't suited to riffing and blues pentatonic. Though I suppose he is talking out his arse as well? If riffing is your thing a Les Paul does do a lot of the work for you. They are physically heavy guitars meaning serious sustain. The mahogany neck and back make them darker sounding than ash/alder/maple combinations. The combination of this construction with humbuckers makes for really dense low mids and an overall darker sound. It sounds like a good recipe for playing heavy riffs on to me.

El Pr0n wrote: »

You're talking out your arse on this point. Playing music requires an appropriate approach and varying technique, this is a fact, regardless of the instrument in question.

There are whole techniques for styles of music that developed around the specific attributes of the instrument being used. Did you ever hear chicken picking on a Les Paul as opposed to a Telecaster or at least a Fender guitar. It sounds like straight pinch harmonics, more like Slash than James Burton. That technique on a Telecaster is one of the defining sounds of country guitar playing. Similarly one of the defining sounds of shoegaze is the combination of gentle whammy bar wobbles with lots of fuzz/delay/reverb. Specifically the effect that you get with a Mustang, Jazzmaster or Jaguar tremolo. A Strat tremolo or a Floyd Rose won't give that effect. A Bigsby is probably the only other thing that resembles it. Peter Hooks bass playing style stems from the fact that the bass he learned to play on/his first bass in Joy Division wasn't particularly good, and in order to cut through on stage he had to play the higher octaves. The limits of his instrument defined his style. No matter how you approach it, no matter how varied your technique might be, you are limited by the instrument you are playing, and riffing/pentatonic blues is without doubt one of the limits with a Jazzmaster.

El Pr0n wrote: »

Japanese Jazzmasters come with cheap hardware, specifically the bridge and the vibrato piece. From a few months of playing hard on a badly-setup bridge, I have worn down the low E saddle. But I'd say if you don't want the 'hassle' of taking a personal interest in and getting to know the ins and outs of your instrument, you're not a serious player.

Maybe instead of just playing it badly set up for a couple of months you should have just set it up properly in the first place. I don't think doing something like that indicates anything about how serious a player you might be. In fact, I don't understand why anyone would do something like that.

rcaz

Seziertisch wrote: »

Well, yeah, that was essentially your friends experience. He presumably played your Jazzmaster the way he usually plays but found it didn't respond the way he wanted it to. I have also never heard of nor seen a metal band playing Jazzmasters. I know no traditional rock guys that play Jazzmasters. Sh1t, Johnny Marr chooses Jazzs and Jags for exactly the reason that they aren't suited to riffing and blues pentatonic. Though I suppose he is talking out his arse as well? If riffing is your thing a Les Paul does do a lot of the work for you. They are physically heavy guitars meaning serious sustain. The mahogany neck and back make them darker sounding than ash/alder/maple combinations. The combination of this construction with humbuckers makes for really dense low mids and an overall darker sound. It sounds like a good recipe for playing heavy riffs on to me.

How about Tom Verlaine? Riffs and solos on a JM, and many a lot better than any of the typical Les Paul guys like Slash.
Re: Johnny Marr - well all the notes are there, why can't you play a minor pentatonic scale on it?
I never understand people who are all about their riffs and solos being obsessed with sustain - they're not sustaining any notes most of the time, surely.

Seziertisch wrote: »

There are whole techniques for styles of music that developed around the specific attributes of the instrument being used. Did you ever hear chicken picking on a Les Paul as opposed to a Telecaster or at least a Fender guitar. It sounds like straight pinch harmonics, more like Slash than James Burton. That technique on a Telecaster is one of the defining sounds of country guitar playing. Similarly one of the defining sounds of shoegaze is the combination of gentle whammy bar wobbles with lots of fuzz/delay/reverb. Specifically the effect that you get with a Mustang, Jazzmaster or Jaguar tremolo. A Strat tremolo or a Floyd Rose won't give that effect. A Bigsby is probably the only other thing that resembles it. Peter Hooks bass playing style stems from the fact that the bass he learned to play on/his first bass in Joy Division wasn't particularly good, and in order to cut through on stage he had to play the higher octaves. The limits of his instrument defined his style. No matter how you approach it, no matter how varied your technique might be, you are limited by the instrument you are playing, and riffing/pentatonic blues is without doubt one of the limits with a Jazzmaster.

Like I said earlier, all the notes are there, and if you can't keep up with the optimum of high action and heavy strings, then work on your technique for a while and you will be able to. I went to a JM from a strat, and there were a few months where I was a much worse player, but with practice, I was just as good as I used to be, and now I'm much better. If you think you "can't play X type of music on Y instrument", you just need to practice more. The instrument is never the weak link, it's the player. Workman blaming tools and all that.

Actually, as a side point, like you said about the Joy Division bassist, different instruments force you work on your technique or figure out new ones - so maybe the Les Paul is the reason your standard rock music has been pretty stagnant for decades? There's a good argument against them.

Seziertisch wrote: »

Maybe instead of just playing it badly set up for a couple of months you should have just set it up properly in the first place. I don't think doing something like that indicates anything about how serious a player you might be. In fact, I don't understand why anyone would do something like that.

Ah here, off yer high horse please. I didn't know how to set it up properly, and I learned from my mistakes. My damaged saddle (which, by the way, I flipped over to reveal the shiny-new side) has a little bit of a story to it, a lesson in it. What have you LEARNED about guitars from playing your perfect Les Pauls that don't ask anything of you?

Seziertisch

El Pr0n wrote: »

How about Tom Verlaine? Riffs and solos on a JM, and many a lot better than any of the typical Les Paul guys like Slash.
Re: Johnny Marr - well all the notes are there, why can't you play a minor pentatonic scale on it?
I never understand people who are all about their riffs and solos being obsessed with sustain - they're not sustaining any notes most of the time, surely.

Tom Verlaine? Traditional blues pentatonic and rock riffs? No he doesn't. As to whether he is better than Slash or typical Les Paul guys they are (very) different. As for Johnny Marr, well if you don't place any worth on his opinion, then that's fair enough. The way you are talking about sustain makes me wonder if you have ever played a proper Les Paul. It really is a very different experience from any Fender guitar.

I also find it kind of puzzling that you would say that any style of music could be played successfully on a Jazzmaster and then go onto to say that you don't understand where people who play riffs and solos are coming from with their sustain obsession. That you don't understand where they are coming from suggests that you don't understand their style of music or what is desirable/needed to play in this style. How you could then claim to know what does or doesn't work for it is a bit of a mystery.

El Pr0n wrote: »

Like I said earlier, all the notes are there, and if you can't keep up with the optimum of high action and heavy strings, then work on your technique for a while and you will be able to. I went to a JM from a strat, and there were a few months where I was a much worse player, but with practice, I was just as good as I used to be, and now I'm much better. If you think you "can't play X type of music on Y instrument", you just need to practice more. The instrument is never the weak link, it's the player. Workman blaming tools and all that.

High action and heavy strings have just as much a place as lighter strings and lower action. The certainly produce very different results. In terms of using heavier strings I have friends that have difficulties with anything beyond 10s and not because they are lazy but that they are straining their hands. It is not a weight lifting contest. A Les Paul or a Strat can be set up with either very heavy or very light strings and it works fine, the JM is a guitar that needs heavy strings (as you have said yourself). As for forcing yourself to play a style of music on an instrument not suited to it, why bother? If you have to, then fair enough, but otherwise?

El Pr0n wrote: »

Actually, as a side point, like you said about the Joy Division bassist, different instruments force you work on your technique or figure out new ones -

You are saying that you accept that different instruments result in different techniques/approaches, but don't accept that certain instruments are much more suited to certain styles of music than others, even though in terms of playing music, differences in technique/approach are pretty much one of the defining things for each style. That makes no sense.

El Pr0n wrote: »

so maybe the Les Paul is the reason your standard rock music has been pretty stagnant for decades? There's a good argument against them.

I am sure I am not the only one who finds it quite ironic that you would accuse someone of talking out their arse and then a couple of posts later write that.

El Pr0n wrote: »

Ah here, off yer high horse please. I didn't know how to set it up properly, and I learned from my mistakes. What have you LEARNED about guitars from playing your perfect Les Pauls that don't ask anything of you?

After resorting to insulting me a couple of posts ago to back up your arguments you are now the voice of reason? Riiiggghht.

I'm in no way precious about Les Pauls, I have offered reasons for saying what I am saying. In fact if anyone is precious, its you. I mean, I also own a Jazzmaster, I appreciate both guitars for what they are, where their strengths and weaknesses are. Jazzmasters are definitely much more limited than other guitars. What they excel at (angular lead lines, whammy bar workouts, argeggio stuff) they really excel at, where they are weak (any kind of chugging riffs, sustaining solos, fatter clean tones) they are a non-starter. The Les Paul might not be the best for what the JM excels at, but at least it does a competent job (with a Bigsby of course).

rcaz

Seziertisch wrote: »

Maybe instead of just playing it badly set up for a couple of months you should have just set it up properly in the first place. I don't think doing something like that indicates anything about how serious a player you might be. In fact, I don't understand why anyone would do something like that.

After resorting to insulting me a couple of posts ago to back up your arguments you are now the voice of reason? Riiiggghht.

Don't talk down to me about my guitars like you've never done something the wrong way in your life.

I tried to end this earlier, saying we'd never agree, and you wouldn't let it go. Now you're doing the same. So how about we do just that? I don't care anymore. I have my opinions and you have yours, that's cool.

Seziertisch

El Pr0n wrote: »

Don't talk down to me about my guitars like you've never done something the wrong way in your life.

I tried to end this earlier, saying we'd never agree, and you wouldn't let it go. Now you're doing the same. So how about we do just that? I don't care anymore. I have my opinions and you have yours, that's cool.

It genuinely wasn't clear to me why you decided to do it that way. You mentioned that that string had worn down the saddle, it almost sounded like you were waiting for this to happen. I'm sorry if I caused any offence.

rcaz

Seziertisch wrote: »

It genuinely wasn't clear to me why you decided to do it that way. You mentioned that that string had worn down the saddle, it almost sounded like you were waiting for this to happen. I'm sorry if I caused any offence.

I could have been more eloquent than 'talking out your arse', so I'm sorry for that. That was the insult you referred to right?

Seziertisch

El Pr0n wrote: »

I could have been more eloquent than 'talking out your arse', so I'm sorry for that. That was the insult you referred to right?

I feel there is so much love between us right now that I think I need to go away for a bit of a cry.

Seziertisch

The mods have stepped this thread down from orange to yellow alert.

rcaz

Seziertisch wrote: »

I feel there is so much love between us right now that I think I need to go away for a bit of a cry.

I was just trying to be cordial, but never mind.

Seziertisch

That was meant tongue in cheek.

rcaz

Seziertisch wrote: »

That was meant tongue in cheek.

Point taken. I think this thread's been derailed long enough.

Zombienosh

so anyways, i just set up my 7string to Dropped A

Karl Hungus

I think it's been a while since we've had a good discussion on this forum, it's welcome even if it is a bit off topic.

AlcoholicA wrote: »

so anyways, i just set up my 7string to Dropped A

Try some open chords with that, most Jazz players who use 7 strings tune it to A, it adds some incredible richness and depth to chord voicings.

darrenw5094

The 6 stringers are in the lead in this poll though.

Anyone meantion Steve Vai playing the 7 string. He can make it sound quite musical too. Although, can't.:mad:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zL26oCLnvLM

Zombienosh

Karl Hungus wrote: »

I think it's been a while since we've had a good discussion on this forum, it's welcome even if it is a bit off topic.



Try some open chords with that, most Jazz players who use 7 strings tune it to A, it adds some incredible richness and depth to chord voicings.

I used to always keep my 6's in open tunings... now i think my 7 will stay in this open A

ball ox

darrenw5094 wrote: »

The 6 stringers are in the lead in this poll though.

Anyone meantion Steve Vai playing the 7 string. He can make it sound quite musical too. Although, can't.:mad:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zL26oCLnvLM

To be honest, after reading some of the posts here I have been trying to find something on youtube that will make me go "woah, thats good use of an extra string".... In that example you gave he just keeps hitting the open B along with whatever riff he's playing in B and then he **** a little. It's a pretty poor argument for the 7th string.

I play guitar, mandolin, charango (10 strings), Uke & Bouzouki - all because of how they sound, nothing to do with a conscious decision towards how many strings they have. Now that I think of it, if someone offered me a well crafted 7 or 8 string acoustic guitar I would pay top dollar for it if it sounded nice. I think the biggest problem with 7 strings as they stand is that they are all pointy guitars with high output pickups.
I'm sure somewhere out there there is somebody who builds 7 strings that are intended for genres other than metal but they are little known and that is why to the average guitarist 7 string = metal.

edit: sorry, i just watched that video again and I have to say, that is genuinely the worst argument for the 7 string you could possibly put forward. He doesn't use it for inverted chords, unique picking, unusual intervals etc., he just keeps hitting the open string. Just detune your E if you want to churn out that kind of rubbish!!!!!

darrenw5094

ball ox wrote: »

edit: sorry, i just watched that video again and I have to say, that is genuinely the worst argument for the 7 string you could possibly put forward. He doesn't use it for inverted chords, unique picking, unusual intervals etc., he just keeps hitting the open string. Just detune your E if you want to churn out that kind of rubbish!!!!!

If you can find a youtube video to show, lets see it. Although i wouldn't call it rubbish.

Zombienosh

7 string

8 string