Shay Given

Mr.Nice Guy

podge018 wrote: »

Eh no. If you were picking a World XI, or a squad at a push, the players who get in are world class, i.e. best in the world in that position.

Oh so if you're not in a "World XI" then you're not world class? Leaving aside the subjective nature of those teams, considering only one guy can make the goalkeeping position for such a team I hope you realise how absurd your logic is.

Bubs101

podge018 wrote: »

Bit of a coincidence he's always behind shaky defences dont ya think? Maybe he just doesn't inspire confidence.......

Exactly. Just look at what happened at City since he's been there. Dunne is shocking with Given behind despite experience with Shay for Ireland while Lescott is tearing it up at Everton. 1 year on and Dunne is turning back the clock at Villa while Lescott looks like the new Boumsong.

Buffon and Casillas don't play in front of world beaters. With the exception of Chiellini the Juve defence is a joke right now and they are lost without him while Real's defence hasn't been top notch since Hierro left but those two still maintain their reputation without doubts

GLaDOS

Bubs101 wrote: »

Exactly. Just look at what happened at City since he's been there. Dunne is shocking with Given behind despite experience with Shay for Ireland while Lescott is tearing it up at Everton. 1 year on and Dunne is turning back the clock at Villa while Lescott looks like the new Boumsong.

Buffon and Casillas don't play in front of world beaters. With the exception of Chiellini the Juve defence is a joke right now and they are lost without him while Real's defence hasn't been top notch since Hierro left but those two still maintain their reputation without doubts

You're ignoring the fact that City's defence was rubbish before Given joined and Newcastle's continues to be rubbish after he left.

Mr.Nice Guy

Bubs101 wrote: »

Exactly. Just look at what happened at City since he's been there. Dunne is shocking with Given behind despite experience with Shay for Ireland while Lescott is tearing it up at Everton. 1 year on and Dunne is turning back the clock at Villa while Lescott looks like the new Boumsong.

Given has been outstanding for Ireland over the years and so has Dunne in front of him so with respect I don't think this theory holds up.

dyl10

podge018 wrote: »

Im not forgetting about his save a minute before, I've said he's a great shot stopper, one of the best around. Let's say he's a 9/10 on that, his command of his area is 3/10, distribution is 5/10................... all this drags him down to a 7/10 keeper.

Every keeper in the premiership can make great saves, people listing off this save and that is ridiculous.
He's not playing in a top premiership team because he has worse than average command of his area nor his average distribution. So why is he respected as he is?
Calmness and composure are two of the most important goalkeeping attributes, you seem to have missed them.

I don't think you know anything about goalkeeping

Bubs101

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Given has been outstanding for Ireland over the years and so has Dunne in front of him so with respect I don't think this theory holds up.

Boumsong went from being the best defender in the SPL and a starting CB for France to an absolute donkey to Juve and Lyon, Colloccini went from Depor standout and Argentinian international to Championship player, Bramble went from being made out to be the worst defender in the country to a sleeper hit at Wigan. There's probably more I can't remember

FlawedGenius

Dont agree with OP. Crazy how the Irish love to criticise there own, even when our keeper is one of the best in the world, where the English big them up like theres no tommorow. Dont know whats worse!:rolleyes:

OPENROAD

GerCPM wrote: »

Dont agree with OP. Crazy how the Irish love to criticise there own, even when our keeper is one of the best in the world, where the English big them up like theres no tommorow. Dont know whats worse!:rolleyes:

In fairness our own media do the same with Irish players imo.

SlickRic

what amazes me about the Given debate is Casillas does the exact same things for Real Madrid, yet gets lauded as the greatest in the world.

and Casillas is prone to more cock-ups from what i've seen.

Given actually has as good distribution as Iker tbh. i don't know where this distribution myth came from.

jonnybadd

I think he's a bloody good keeper, probably the best reactionary shot stopper in the world. I do think though, while he has played behind shoddy defences in his time, his command of his area, especially his six yard box isn't fantastic. Tonight notwithstanding (it was bloody horrible defence and shouldn't have been his ball to claim) I think he just doesn't commit himself enough to balls that are swung in.

Pro. F

Bubs101 wrote: »

Exactly. Just look at what happened at City since he's been there. Dunne is shocking with Given behind despite experience with Shay for Ireland while Lescott is tearing it up at Everton. 1 year on and Dunne is turning back the clock at Villa while Lescott looks like the new Boumsong.

Buffon and Casillas don't play in front of world beaters. With the exception of Chiellini the Juve defence is a joke right now and they are lost without him while Real's defence hasn't been top notch since Hierro left but those two still maintain their reputation without doubts

Bubs101 wrote: »

Boumsong went from being the best defender in the SPL and a starting CB for France to an absolute donkey to Juve and Lyon, Colloccini went from Depor standout and Argentinian international to Championship player, Bramble went from being made out to be the worst defender in the country to a sleeper hit at Wigan. There's probably more I can't remember

You're still ignoring Sciencenerd's point that the City defence was muck before he joined and the Newcastle one continues to be muck after he left.

Mr Nice Guy's point about Dunne and Given playing outstandingly well together for Ireland disproves your theory about Given making Dunne play badly. And the fact that Dunne was playing badly for City before Given arrived also shows that theory to be incorrect.

You say that Buffon and Casillas have maintained their reputations while behind dodgy defences but that proves nothing as it's totally subjective. Imo Given has maintained his reputation while behind dodgy defences too.

You never mention the managers who organise the defences in all your theorizing. It's pointless talking about the CBs' form without looking at the managers and coaches in charge of the defences too.

All this talk of Given undermining the defence's confidence is simply wrong. The keepers who undermine defences are the ones who are indecisive, unpredictable and uncommunicative. Given is none of these things. His defenders always know what he's doing. He is not the type of keeper you see coming off his line and then rushing back because he's changed his mind. He is not the type of keeper who you see crashing into defenders and flapping at the ball when trying to collect crosses that he's miss-judged.

The fact that people are blaming him for the third goal tonight shows that they simply don't understand defending - it was nothing to do with Given that Rooney found space between the defenders and that Giggs sent in a perfect cross.

I agree that he maybe should have come out to close down Giggs quicker for the first goal but it's not as if he can normally be criticised for how he deals with one-on-ones, that was a very unusual mistake for him.

Mitch Connor

Pro. F wrote: »

I agree that he maybe should have come out to close down Giggs quicker for the first goal but it's not as if he can normally be criticised for how he deals with one-on-ones, that was a very unusual mistake for him.

Even with the one on one it is not clear cut imo.

If Given had known Giggs would take a bad touch, he probably would have closed him down a lot quicker, but he couldn't, and shouldn't imo, have been trying to close him down before he took his touch. In hindsight it may look like poor goalkeeping, but hindsight is 20/20 and all that jazz.

He came out quickly enough after the touch was taken and he forced giggs wide - it was then the defence that didn't close down or deal with the danger well enough.

SlickRic

jonnybadd wrote: »

I think he just doesn't commit himself enough to balls that are swung in.

true.

but maybe he recognises his slight weakness.

again, i bring up casillas. i've seen him miss a sh*tload of high balls that cost his team chances, and a lot of times goals. his shot stopping is second to none though. better than even Given.

Given should be better at the high ball and commanding his area, absolutely. but even in saying that, he's actually good at it; not exceptional by any means, but adequate nonetheless.

none of this takes away his claim as one of the best in the world.

begrudgery, begrudgery, begrudgery imo...

Chardee MacDennis

ScienceNerd wrote: »

This I did notice, thought the could have got to it before Giggs, he definitely hesitated

he absolutely bottled it, great goalkeeper but not world class - the old rose tinted shades come out for the irish players like Given around here...

niallk

This is a retarded thread: A very fast-paced INSWINGING cross comes in at a low trajectory over a bunch of players and lands on an unmarked Wayne Rooney's grateful head and somehow the keeper gets blamed?
This is what's called selective perception.

Mitch Connor

BastardPrince wrote: »

he absolutely bottled it, great goalkeeper but not world class - the old rose tinted shades come out for the irish players like Given around here...

if he had been rushing out and giggs had taken a good touch he would have been in no mans land. Given should not have come sprinting off his line until Giggs controlled the ball, at which point Given DID react to the poor touch but Giggs was fast enough to get there ahead of him. Given then forced him wide and away from goal.

Chardee MacDennis

Mitch Connor wrote: »

if he had been rushing out and giggs had taken a good touch he would have been in no mans land. Given should not have come sprinting off his line until Giggs controlled the ball, at which point Given DID react to the poor touch but Giggs was fast enough to get there ahead of him. Given then forced him wide and away from goal.

he had time to get to the ball before giggs touched it imo, but he hesitated...

Pro. F

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Even with the one on one it is not clear cut imo.

If Given had known Giggs would take a bad touch, he probably would have closed him down a lot quicker, but he couldn't, and shouldn't imo, have been trying to close him down before he took his touch. In hindsight it may look like poor goalkeeping, but hindsight is 20/20 and all that jazz.

He came out quickly enough after the touch was taken and he forced giggs wide - it was then the defence that didn't close down or deal with the danger well enough.

Yeah good point. I can only remember seeing that bit of the play from the angle behind Rooney when he played the (awesome) pass which, tbh, makes it a bit hard for me to judge with all the mad parallax.

noodler

OPENROAD wrote: »

What about when he plays for Ireland

Playing for Ireland is as secure as it gets for Shay.

Close this absolutely stupid thread down please unless you all want one about how Roy Keane was a hatchet man with no skill.

noodler

BastardPrince wrote: »

he had time to get to the ball before giggs touched it imo, but he hesitated...

He did absolutely 100% the right thing there.

We would have been slating any keeper who made a stupid challenge there when it wasn't needed.

He slowed Giggs down, forced him wide and then the defenders fcuked up one again.

Ardent

niallk wrote: »

This is a retarded thread: A very fast-paced INSWINGING cross comes in at a low trajectory over a bunch of players and lands on an unmarked Wayne Rooney's grateful head and somehow the keeper gets blamed?
This is what's called selective perception.

Correct.

And you'll notice it's the Liverpool supporters blaming him too. I guess they think Reina would have done a better job?

Anyone remember Reina bottling it spectacularly against Utd not too long ago and single handedly handing (punching) them the match?

noodler

Ardent wrote: »

Correct.

And you'll notice it's the Liverpool supporters blaming him too. I guess they think Reina would have done a better job?

Anyone remember Reina bottling it spectacularly against Utd not too long ago and single handedly handing (punching) them the match?

About 3 years ago. Yeah.

If you think it is Liverpool fans criticising Given then how exactly are you defending the man by going on a pointless, prehistoric rant about Reina?

The begrudgery we have for the man is absolutely ridiculous by the way. We aren't allowed have one decent player without a large minority of people freaking out about green bias or 'ole ole ole' crowds.

event

we are allowed to criticise lads

i think he is top class, one of the best in the league, but he messed up for the first goal last night.

he should have been off his line quicker to get to the ball after giggs first touch. anyone can see that, its plain as day

noodler

event wrote: »

we are allowed to criticise lads

i think he is top class, one of the best in the league, but he messed up for the first goal last night.

he should have been off his line quicker to get to the ball after giggs first touch. anyone can see that, its plain as day

Bullcrap. He would just have been asking Giggs to fall over him.

He did exactly what he should have done, he forced Giggs wide and didn't make his mind up for him.

PHB

Just in relation to that game, it was poor goalkeeping for Carricks goal too imo. Bad positioning.