Public Sector Reforms

ei.sdraob

Count Dooku wrote: »

Am I correct that David Begg is chairman of Central Bank as well?

you are correct and these people were striking too recently

there was whole thread on subject asking why is there so many people in central bank as compared to bank of england in UK, especially considering we have smaller economy and now are in eurozone, and as has shown the regulator and central bank didnt do their job

ardmacha

and that still didnt answer the question:

where are the reforms that that were promised under benchmarking?

As I said in Post 32

Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us with even one specific example of something promised under benchmarking and not delivered where a genuine attempt was made to implement it.

Are you Jimmmy?

ParkRunner

ZYX wrote: »

Net pay would have risen even more substantially as income tax rates in 1988 were far higher. 65% if I remember correctly was the top rate and just about everyone was on the top rate. Lower rate was 48% and bottom rate was 35%. So net pay now including income levies, pension levies and any other levy you care to mention is probably nearer to 5 times what it was in 1988.

Add to that the huge increase in numbers working in public service. Some public services are better than 20 years ago but this improvement seems very poor value for money.

The decrease in direct income tax has more than likely been replaced by the various stealth taxes that exist to some degree but the point I was trying to make was that while the graph may show rising income, actual take home pay is actually falling substantially. Income and health levy aside, the rest of the measures taken have had a significant direct impact on public sector pay

ei.sdraob

EF wrote: »

The decrease in direct income tax has more than likely been replaced by the various stealth taxes that exist to some degree but the point I was trying to make was that while the graph may show rising income, actual take home pay is actually falling substantially. Income and health levy aside, the rest of the measures taken have had a significant direct impact on public sector pay

i said it before and i say it again

if public sector workers think they have it so bad

they are welcome to join the private sector

no? taught so

ardmacha

they are welcome to join the private sector

no? taught so

Perhaps there is still a need for them to remain in the education system.

Riskymove

ei.sdraob wrote: »

i said it before and i say it again

if public sector workers think they have it so bad

they are welcome to join the private sector

no? taught so

is this still the kind of thing you come out with?

well "if ya think the public sector have it so good, why didn't you join it"...na na nanana..give over FFS


as usual another possibly worthwhile discussion about possible reforms has come down to this rubbish

ei.sdraob

Riskymove wrote: »

is this still the kind of thing you come out with?

well "if ya think the public sector have it so good, why didn't you join it"...na na nanana..give over FFS


as usual another possibly worthwhile discussion about possible reforms has come down to this rubbish

sorry it had to be said

i did raise some ideas earlier in the thread for reforms

sorry for being cynical but the unions promised us reforms long long ago, why discuss them now when all of this should have been done in the last decade

and if they dont reform and continue on same track then the unions should take note as to whats happening in greece now

Riskymove

ei.sdraob wrote: »

sorry for being cynical but the unions promised us reforms long long ago, why discuss them now when all of this should have been done in the last decade

and if they dont reform and continue on same track then the unions should take note as to whats happening in greece now

do you just ignore replies?

its been made clear that your position about "promised reforms" is in error

and pretending that not implementing reforms means we are heading to where Greece is is equally wrong..I think there problems are a bit more fundamental than their public service not extending their working day or whatever

what do you get out of acting like this?...seriously....??

ei.sdraob

Riskymove wrote: »

do you just ignore replies?

its been made clear that your position about "promised reforms" is in error

and pretending that not implementing reforms means we are heading to where Greece is is equally wrong..I think there problems are a bit more fundamental than their public service not extending their working day or whatever

what do you get out of acting like this?...seriously....??

so if they didnt have any reforms (and now apparently its being claimed they didnt promise any reforms)


* what was the extra money given for? what did the taxpayer get out of it??
* why are people in the PS still get raises for no extra measured productivity gains?
* how is productivity being measured in PS?

Riskymove

ei.sdraob wrote: »

so if they didnt have any reforms

lol, seriously....do you read replies?

noone said that

(and now apparently its being claimed they didnt promise any reforms)

noone said that either

* what was the extra money given for? what did the taxpayer get out of it??

the extra money was based on the idea that public wages lagged behind private wages and was basically a keep everyone happy scheme by Bertie

the taxpayer got pretty much feck all out of it

getting the money was based on living up to certain, specific reforms (as mentioned mostly around strategic business planning and performance management)

* why are people in the PS still get raises for no extra measured productivity gains?

many aren't getting raises of any kind

but a lot of PS are on incremental salary schemes and there is an issue with measurement of performance in that regard

* how is productivity being measured in PS?

with great difficulty, that is the big, underlining issue in all attempts to introduce measurement...how can you measure the output of public services?

they, generally do not produce items, nor make profits etc

ardmacha

sorry for being cynical but the unions promised us reforms long long ago,

Which exact reforms were promised and when were these promises made, that have not been delivered?

ParkRunner

ei.sdraob wrote: »

sorry for being cynical but the unions promised us reforms long long ago, why discuss them now when all of this should have been done in the last decade

and if they dont reform and continue on same track then the unions should take note as to whats happening in greece now

I dont get why there is so much emphasis on the unions when it comes to reform..if the government wanted to reform the public sector they could have. If they want to do it now they can. They are the Ministers with responsibility for the various Departments afterall so any concern you have for lack of reform should be directed at the Government.

The vast vast majority of public sector workers would be happy to have meaningful reform which would improve services to the public but there has been no leadership shown from the top, just report after report published and shelved.

ei.sdraob

Riskymove wrote: »

the extra money was based on the idea that public wages lagged behind private wages and was basically a keep everyone happy scheme by Bertie

the taxpayer got pretty much feck all out of it

getting the money was based on living up to certain, specific reforms (as mentioned mostly around strategic business planning and performance management)

why cant benchmarking work in reverse? clearly they private sector pay has collapsed while public sector still get paid close to peak wages

Riskymove wrote: »

many aren't getting raises of any kind

but a lot of PS are on incremental salary schemes and there is an issue with measurement of performance in that regard

its an issue alright, and until its resolved people in this country will be resentful especially while many are not happy with quality of service being received

Riskymove wrote: »

with great difficulty, that is the big, underlining issue in all attempts to introduce measurement...how can you measure the output of public services?

they, generally do not produce items, nor make profits etc

yes it is a problem, and im genuinly interested how it can be addressed

i proposed customers providing feedback on services received, but will any feedback be acted on

when was last time anyone got fired from PS from being a waster or not doing their job?

ei.sdraob

EF wrote: »

I dont get why there is so much emphasis on the unions when it comes to reform..if the government wanted to reform the public sector they could have. If they want to do it now they can. They are the Ministers with responsibility for the various Departments afterall so any concern you have for lack of reform should be directed at the Government.

The vast vast majority of public sector workers would be happy to have meaningful reform which would improve services to the public but there has been no leadership shown from the top, just report after report published and shelved.

because any attempt at reform is met by strikes organised by unions

see air traffic controllers recently

ardmacha wrote: »

Which exact reforms were promised and when were these promises made, that have not been delivered.

thats what im trying to find out, i remember reading papers daily going on about benchmarking and how we will get reforms in return

were the people of this country lied to (again?) and money was given away for nothing

ardmacha

clearly they private sector pay has collapsed while public sector still get paid close to peak wages

Public sector wages have been reduced by 15%. Show me a statistic that shows that private sector wages have declined by this amount in any sector where there is an unchanged demand for the services provided by that sector.

see air traffic controllers recently

Of course the air traffic controllers are not in the public sector.

Riskymove

ei.sdraob wrote: »

because any attempt at reform is met by strikes organised by unions

see air traffic controllers recently

they did not strike against reforms, they striked against the suspension of workers

the LRC have decided on the matter and its seems to be now resolved.

thats what im trying to find out, i remember reading papers daily going on about benchmarking and how we will get reforms in return

were the people of this country lied to (again?) and money was given away for nothing

I've told you the generalities of the reforms....are you unable to google "benchmarking report"?

Riskymove

ei.sdraob wrote: »

why cant benchmarking work in reverse? clearly they private sector pay has collapsed while public sector still get paid close to peak wages

who says it can't?

I think the reductions in public service pay would indicate it can

its an issue alright, and until its resolved people in this country will be resentful especially while many are not happy with quality of service being received

yep, thats why i keep going on about the need for management reform

Count Dooku

Riskymove wrote: »

with great difficulty, that is the big, underlining issue in all attempts to introduce measurement...how can you measure the output of public services?

they, generally do not produce items, nor make profits etc

If output is constant, the best indicator of achievements is regular reduction of spending made through optimisation of processes and as result reduction of staff

At least, it can work for management. If manager didn’t achieve any reduction in spending, he doesn’t deserve any pay increase

ZYX

ardmacha wrote: »

Public sector wages have been reduced by 15%. .

That is not true

ParkRunner

ei.sdraob wrote: »

because any attempt at reform is met by strikes organised by unions

see air traffic controllers recently

Was that not as a result of air-traffic controllers being suspended? If you are going to approach a situation by suspending workers and forcing change without at least consulting with the workers then it is not surprising that conflict results.

Im sure if sensible and practical reforms were put on the table by the government they would be embraced. If you can name a few proposed reforms that the government want to achieve I would like to hear them. All I have heard from the government is that reforms are necessary..what they want exactly is not clear!

Riskymove

Count Dooku wrote: »

If output is constant, the best indicator of achievements is regular reduction of spending made through optimisation of processes and as result reduction of staff

At least, it can work for management. If manager didn’t achieve any reduction in spending, he doesn’t deserve any pay increase

again, good in theory...but some public organisations exist to spend money!!

if you are talking about the cost of the organisation itself (i.e. staff and operations) there are some possibilities

but for example how can a teacher be judged in such a way or a Garda?

in the operation of the public service it really needs to be a case of making your spend more efficient as opposed to reducing it

ei.sdraob

ardmacha wrote: »

Public sector wages have been reduced by 15%. Show me a statistic that shows that private sector wages have declined by this amount in any sector where there is an unchanged demand for the services provided by that sector.
.

i dont see a 15% drop in the CSO data fro public sector workers earnings




what data are you basing 15% drop on?

ardmacha wrote: »

Of course the air traffic controllers are not in the public sector.

they aint private sector either, but semi state

Riskymove

ei.sdraob wrote: »

i dont see a 15% drop in the CSO data fro public sector workers earnings

you mean the CSO has a graph from the future?:eek:

2010 aint on that

ardmacha

what data are you basing 15% drop on?

The pension levy (not shown in the CSO data above) is a 7.5% drop and there has been a further 7.5% drop in 2010. And don't be coming up with nonsense that the pension levy is not a paycut.

Perhaps you can show that it is only 14%.

The_Honeybadger

ardmacha wrote: »

Public sector wages have been reduced by 15%. Show me a statistic that shows that private sector wages have declined by this amount in any sector where there is an unchanged demand for the services provided by that sector.

Private sector figues are skewed by the hundreds of thousands that have become unemployed. Also many are now on three day weeks, reduced hours etc, it is impossible to get solid figures on this but everybody knows that it is widespread.
Public sector wages are not down 15%, that is a gross figure (if you include the pension levy, which is a difficult question). Net take home is not down by anywhere near that much and even the pension levy is tax deductible.

ei.sdraob

Riskymove wrote: »

you mean the CSO has a graph from the future?:eek:

2010 aint on that

once again

what data are you basing 15% drop on?

ardmacha wrote: »

The pension levy (not shown in the CSO data above) is a 7.5% drop and there has been a further 7.5% drop in 2010. And don't be coming up with nonsense that the pension levy is not a paycut.

Perhaps you can show that it is only 14%.

1. guaranteed pension, thats more than most in private sector has
2. pensions are not income

if you thing pension is income, then why dont you pay income tax on your pensions (pensions are tax exempt) im sure Revenue be happy to take a nice chunk out of your "pension income"

ardmacha

Of course private sector figures are skewed by the hundreds of thousands that have become unemployed, because there was no demand for their services. Public services remain in demand, when even modest short time working was proposed there was an outcry against it. When you talk of a pay cut it is always the gross you are talking about. So compare like with like.

pensions are not income

What is a pension except income, it is not tax exempt. Please explain.

Riskymove

mickeyk wrote: »

Public sector wages are not down 15%, that is a gross figure (if you include the pension levy, which is a difficult question). Net take home is not down by anywhere near that much and even the pension levy is tax deductible.

well perhaps you can agree that the cost of the public sector to the exchequer has been reduced at least?

arguments over gross and net pay with the levy etc can go in circles

the bottom line is that a couple of billion have been shaved off the pay bill over the last year or so

ei.sdraob

ardmacha wrote: »

Of course private sector figures are skewed by the hundreds of thousands that have become unemployed, because there was no demand for their services. Public services remain in demand, when even modest short time working was proposed there was an outcry against it. When you talk of a pay cut it is always the gross you are talking about. So compare like with like.



What is a pension only income. Please explain.

can you go to an ATM at end of month and withdraw from your pension?

no?? see not an income

if you want to count it as an income then why should it not be taxed as an income?

since average PS wage is well into the 40% taxband that "income" would be great addition to exchequer

Riskymove

ei.sdraob wrote: »

once again

what data are you basing 15% drop on?

yes we can see that a chart of average gross wages wont be affected by the levy or other taxes....the fact that people will hide behind that is of no benefit

the key thing in sorting our present situation is reducing expenditure and that is what is going on....gross wages are only part of that equation