Dublin Port passenger numbers

JHMEG

Some posters speculating recently that there were only a handful of foot passengers using Dublin Port, obviating the need for decent transport links from Dublin Port to the City Centre.

Figures out today show that in 2009 there were 1.5 million ferry passengers and 183,000 cars, averaging over 8 passengers per car.

In addition there were 120,000 cruise liner passengers, who by defintion don't bring their own wheeled transport.

As already stated elsewhere there are 4,000 passengers a week using the train in Holyhead.

I know that CIE and the DoT hate customers, but I am finding it hard to believe that a proper rail service (even a Luas extension) to the port is not needed.

L1011

Cruise liner passengers generally do not leave the ship on public transport *anywhere*. Arranged tours or they stay on.

There are VERY MANY tourbuses on the boats - so "8 passengers per car" doesn't have any basis in reality. There is generally less than 40 foot passengers per sailing I'm on.,

Holyhead is a decent sized town so a decent % of the ~600 a day are not going for the ferries.

There is no justification for a rail extension to the passenger terminals under *any* basis. While tracks are there they don't run to the pax terminals, run along the road, and don't have any pax facilities. There is even less justification for building a Luas line out there due to the cost of building a new line.

The "speculation" about passenger numbers here is from you massaging figures to make it sound like theres a lot - there isn't. I use Irish Ferries more often than my wallet would care to know and there ARE bugger all foot passengers.

Roryhy

1.5mil per year equates to an average of just over 4000 per day, then we need to deduct those that use cars which works out at least 500 per day. So at most we have 3,500 passengers on foot per day to or from the port, this hardly justifies an investment of around €50million on a LUAS extension(the point extension cost 90mil and is roughly the same length as a proposed port extension but without all the stops and also without the bridge to build). A high quality bus service from the port to busarus/connolly would be a much more cost effective system. I think there is a service in place but im not sure of the details.

Tragedy

In both Dublin Port, Dun Laoghaire and Holyhead have seen very very few foot passengers.

As MYOB said, plenty of tourbuses on the sailings.
Also, were truckdrivers counted as "Passengers"?

JHMEG

MYOB wrote: »

Cruise liner passengers generally do not leave the ship on public transport *anywhere*. Arranged tours or they stay on.

They most certainly leave the ship as those 120,000 were estimated to have spent over €50m in the Dublin economy.

MYOB wrote: »

There is generally less than 40 foot passengers per sailing I'm on.,

Have you any hard figures to back up this?

L1011

JHMEG wrote: »

They most certainly leave the ship as those 120,000 were estimated to have spent over €50m in the Dublin economy.

By organised tours, as I said. They're not toddling off the cruise ship and walking in now are they? And if they're already leaving the boat, providing a Luas line for them is not going to increase their spend one bit.

JHMEG wrote: »

Have you any hard figures to back up this?

No, but neither do you - you have figures which are totally unrelated to it. I do, however, have the experience of many tens (it may be over 100 but not 'hundreds') of ferry crossings in the past years to base my personal observations off - which are that whatever foot traffic there is is not worth fighting for. Its definitely not worth a multiple million euro rail investment for maybe 120 passengers a day.

Heavy or light rail to the passenger terminals would have been seen as an insane proposal when we had money. Now it goes beyond insane.

Atlantic Dawn

Would be interesting to get figures for Dun Laoighaire Port to see how many use DART and bus to get to the ferry.

penexpers

JHMEG wrote: »

As already stated elsewhere there are 4,000 passengers a week using the train in Holyhead.

How many of those are local to Holyhead? How many of those came from Dublin Port? How many of those came from Dun Laoghaire?

While I am a believer in sail and rail being viable, I don't think a LUAS extension to the port is viable at all. I went over and back in early September last year and there were 15 foot passengers on the way over and maybe 20 on the way back.

FlameoftheWest

JHMEG wrote: »

Some posters speculating recently that there were only a handful of foot passengers using Dublin Port, obviating the need for decent transport links from Dublin Port to the City Centre.

Figures out today show that in 2009 there were 1.5 million ferry passengers and 183,000 cars, averaging over 8 passengers per car.

In addition there were 120,000 cruise liner passengers, who by defintion don't bring their own wheeled transport.

As already stated elsewhere there are 4,000 passengers a week using the train in Holyhead.

I know that CIE and the DoT hate customers, but I am finding it hard to believe that a proper rail service (even a Luas extension) to the port is not needed.

That's a nice bit of basic research. Well done. 120,000 passengers a year might not justify extending the Luas down there. But here is an idea. In several European city the tram networks also carry freight at night.

Thinking outside the box...

Carawaystick

FlameoftheWest wrote: »

In several European city the tram networks also carry freight at night.

Thinking outside the box...

There's a heavy rail line serving dublin port already, except when IÉ engineers fail to spot a bridge about to fall into the sea....

crushproof

I'd sometimes get the DART when the ferry passengers are arriving into Dun Laoghaire. I'd say roughly between 30 - 40 would be the usual amount getting the DART, doubt there'd be many other foot passengers planning on walking or are getting a lift off a friend or family.

scudzilla

MYOB wrote: »

Cruise liner passengers generally do not leave the ship on public transport *anywhere*. Arranged tours or they stay on.

There are VERY MANY tourbuses on the boats - so "8 passengers per car" doesn't have any basis in reality. There is generally less than 40 foot passengers per sailing I'm on.,

Holyhead is a decent sized town so a decent % of the ~600 a day are not going for the ferries.

There is no justification for a rail extension to the passenger terminals under *any* basis. While tracks are there they don't run to the pax terminals, run along the road, and don't have any pax facilities. There is even less justification for building a Luas line out there due to the cost of building a new line.

The "speculation" about passenger numbers here is from you massaging figures to make it sound like theres a lot - there isn't. I use Irish Ferries more often than my wallet would care to know and there ARE bugger all foot passengers.

Agree with what you say apart from the last bit, i go over to Wales twice a month on average to see my kids, on nearly every Jonathon Swift sailing there is 2 coaches of foot passenger bussed out to the ship.
On Ulysses i'd say about 50 on average (people, not buses)

antoinolachtnai

In other countries this issue would be resolved by having a little bus that brings people from the last stop on the Luas to the Port and the boat.

L1011

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

In other countries this issue would be resolved by having a little bus that brings people from the last stop on the Luas to the Port and the boat.

And here its solved by Irish Ferries arranging for there to be a Dublin Bus route that serves their departures and Stena arranging for there to be a Mortons one.

Steam Packet only run the Dublin route because they're legally forced to by the IOM Govt. so they're not going to make it easy to use and P&O do not take foot passengers at all. Checking Norfolk Line's website they appear to assume foot passengers will arrive by car!

JHMEG

Or in otherwords two different companies servicing half the operators and only some of the sailings and not to/from the same locations, and one not connecting half the time with other public transport.

Sounds perfect!

L1011

The ones that are "not connecting" with other public transport CANNOT connect with other public transport due to the time of the sailings. Nothing much that can be done about this without us improving our overall public transport system. Which pissing millions down the drain for 120 people a day (ish) isn't going to do.

JHMEG

MYOB wrote: »

The ones that are "not connecting" with other public transport CANNOT connect with other public transport due to the time of the sailings.

The Morton's 1730 bus from the port connects with Connolly for onward travel. The Morton's 0715 and 1945 buses from Westmoreland Street to the port do not connect with Connolly or Busaras etc. Nothing to do with times of sailings.

But the point is a that transport to and from the Dublin Port is a mish mash hotch potch of near misses.

noelfirl

JHMEG wrote: »

But the point is a that transport to and from the Dublin Port is a mish mash hotch potch of near misses.

You could have made that point in the opening post, or heaven forbid the old thread rather then banging on about building an overspecced and would-be-underused Luas line. Save logical arguments about integrating bus arrival times to suit other public transport (which ultimately is dependent on the ferry companies) anything else about tram lines or railway lines is nothing sort of nonsensical; considering our economic prospects, any and all advanced-type public transport development should be directed towards consistent medium and higher density population areas, and not vanity projects serving only a very much minority of ferry travellers.

JHMEG

Why don't you slap the person that dragged it off topic then?

This thread is about the figures from Dublin Port Authority that were in the newspaper.

No-one has come up with a proper counter-argument. "Last time I was on it there was no more than 40" doesn't count. Neither does "yeah but they don't leave the ship".

And anyone who thinks the current arrangement is acceptable, or even good, has low standards.

Now, if someone is going to say there isn't the traffic level there to support a decent transport infrastructure please provide some figures to back up your argument. What Dave down the pub told you doesn't matter, and we know that no poster here has actually ever counted.

noelfirl

You've provided no direct figures on foot passengers. If you are so certain of the hoardes of foot passengers, why are Dublin Bus / Mortons only providing a single double decker per sailing, accounting for a maximum of 100 foot passengers per sailing. If the demand was already there, then there would already be more buses provided, that is an absolute fact. There aren't. There isn't a need. There most certainly isn't a need for a Luas. Why don't you wait until you travel and see for yourself?

L1011

JHMEG wrote: »

No-one has come up with a proper counter-argument. "Last time I was on it there was no more than 40" doesn't count. Neither does "yeah but they don't leave the ship".

What is there to counter? The figures you've provided prove absolutely and utterly nothing. You may as well have given the unemployment figures for Ulan Bator and claimed that number of foot passengers were going through Dublin Port in desperate need of a rail link

JHMEG wrote: »

Now, if someone is going to say there isn't the traffic level there to support a decent transport infrastructure please provide some figures to back up your argument. What Dave down the pub told you doesn't matter, and we know that no poster here has actually ever counted.

Please provide some ACTUAL figures showing the number of foot passengers through Dublin Port. You haven't done this yet. Then you can ask others to provide theirs.

The only reason you're evangelising for a rail link is because YOU are doing sailrail this summer and are bitter about having to take a bus. You've even posted about said journey. There are about 120 foot pax a day across *all* sailings in to Dublin Port which barely deserves a bus service let alone the rail you and you alone want.

L1011

JHMEG wrote: »

The Morton's 1730 bus from the port connects with Connolly for onward travel. The Morton's 0715 and 1945 buses from Westmoreland Street to the port do not connect with Connolly or Busaras etc. Nothing to do with times of sailings.

But the point is a that transport to and from the Dublin Port is a mish mash hotch potch of near misses.

0715 is too early to connect with anything based on current schedules in Dublin. They should be improved, but pissing money down the drain on a tens of millions of euro Luas extension to serve 120 people a day is about the worst way to improve overall transpoirt.

What surreal definition of "connect" are you taking for the 19:45? There are buses and trains close to it.

JHMEG

MYOB wrote: »

The figures you've provided prove absolutely and utterly nothing.

Ditto MYOB. I'm quoting official figures, which is a start. You're repeating ad nauseum that based on your experience blah blah. How about you dig up some official figures instead of firing out the same old shite.

JHMEG

MYOB wrote: »

What surreal definition of "connect" are you taking for the 19:45? There are buses and trains close to it.

Wetmoreland Street is not a transport hub. You're now using Noel Dempsey-style defintions.

JHMEG

MYOB wrote: »

The only reason you're evangelising for a rail link is because YOU are doing sailrail this summer and are bitter about having to take a bus.

Don't be so childish. The fact that I am travelling Sail/rail this summer has drawn my attention to the incoherent state of public transport to/from the ferry.

L1011

JHMEG wrote: »

Ditto MYOB. I'm quoting official figures, which is a start. You're repeating ad nauseum that based on your experience blah blah. How about you dig up some official figures instead of firing out the same old shite.

There *are* no official figures. You're convinced that because you want to travel by rail and ferry that there must be a huge number - whereas I actually *do* travel by ferry frequently and can tell you that theres nearly nobody doing it. I wouldn't be overly surprised if they got rid of foot passengers entirely in the future, as P&O already have.

If your going to accuse someone of "firing out the same old ****e" you might want to stop massaging the same set of figures to your desired result, then.

And Westmoreland Street has more than enough bus services to call it a transport hub. Its not the one you want to use, which is why you're objecting to it.

Does it not occur to you that the "incoherent state" is down entirely to no demand?

BenShermin

Ahh Westmoreland Street International, home to a beautiful blue steel and glass roof, a statue of a couple kissing and a champagne bar :rolleyes:....

As a punter who very seldom sells himself to O'Leary I'm a very regular user of SailRail and I find that the sad reality is that MYOB is 100% correct in his estimation of today's foot passenger numbers. It doesn't excuse the pathetic excuse for connections to the port though, rather than building it and they will come they've decided that nobody uses it so shag it! With Ryanair fares going up and airport security getting worse it's the perfect time to encourage born-again foot passengers.

I'm afraid that the current senario of Irish Ferries Dublin Bus connection that shows up whenever it wants to, and Stena Lines Mortons "connect with nothing" coach will be here to stay under the current ferry operator policies of look after freight first.

I totally agree that a Luas extention to the port would be a total waste of money but I'd love to be in a position to change things and give the two fingers to the airlines. If I was in Irish Ferries position I'd show Dublin Bus the door, buy my own double decker (or two) and offer a service from Dublin City which sells tickets on a bus which drives directly onto the ferry and drives off the ferry on the other side leaving passengers outside the door of Holyhead train station. The passengers could leave bulky luggage on the bus so the hassle of luggage lugging is gone. It can be done, Eurolines buses go directly onto the ferries. Alas I fear we'll always be stuck with the status quo.

I will say one thing in my experience of taking the old 1110 departure from Dún Laoghaire, that queuing for 45mins for foot passenger check in was not uncommon on Friday and Saturday mornings as many soccer fans were unwilling to give their money to the airlines. Sometimes the staff in Dún Laoghaire would claim that there was over 250 foot passengers on that one sailing. I think Stena's new timetables have killed a lot of this traffic though and their alternative from Dublin Port is just an advertisement for Irish Ferries Ulysses ferry in my opinion.

I'll also add that sailrail fares have gone down from €44 single to London (and all of zone D) to €40, the lower fares have dropped in price also. Travelling for the other side though and the fare from London to Dublin has risen from £29 to £30.50. Obviously an attempt to match exchange rates, nevertheless good value starting from Ireland.

All the best folks, and I might see you down in Westmoreland International with my fishermans friends in pocket one cold misty morning in the future.

Cookie_Monster

Regardless of any other factors surely the fact that this issue is never brought up by anyone in anyway pretty much porves there is no demand from any quarter for better links.

If the Gov/ DCC/ Dublin Port thought they need more transport they would be campaigning for it.

If the ferry operators thought they needed more transport they run dedicated links

If the public thought they neede more they be complaining to local representatives

JHMEG

Very constructive post there by BenShermin.

I don't subscribe to this "it's not there cos there's no demand". Like a connection between the two Luas lines, plenty of things are missing in this country, out of bad planning and igorance as much as anything else.

Redsoxfan

I just had a look at Sail and Rail there on Stenaline as an alternative to Ryanair as I would be genuinely interested in such an alternative.

Total travel times are as follows:

Liverpool 8 hours
Manchester 8 hours 40 mins
Birmingham 9 hours
London 7 hours 45 mins

I can honestly say that I would never undertake such a journey unless I had no alternative. With on-line check-in, you don't really have any need to be at the airport (Dublin anyway) for more than an hour/hour and a half before your flight, so total travel time by sail and rail is more than twice as long as that by air. Unless you are booking really late and need to bring a suitcase, you wouldn't save much by Sail and Rail as far as I can see.

Now I'm sure that people do use the Sail and Rail service, but how much more popular is it ever likely to get given the travel times above?

Guell72

MYOB wrote: »

There *are* no official figures. You're convinced that because you want to travel by rail and ferry that there must be a huge number - whereas I actually *do* travel by ferry frequently and can tell you that theres nearly nobody doing it. I wouldn't be overly surprised if they got rid of foot passengers entirely in the future, as P&O already have.

If your going to accuse someone of "firing out the same old ****e" you might want to stop massaging the same set of figures to your desired result, then.

And Westmoreland Street has more than enough bus services to call it a transport hub. Its not the one you want to use, which is why you're objecting to it.

Does it not occur to you that the "incoherent state" is down entirely to no demand?

I travel by ferry a lot too and my experience is that there are a lot of foot passengers. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Also when im on a cruise there are a hell of a lot of people taking public transport when they get off the ship, where its available. Have you ever seen the prices the cruise lines chage for excursions and even just buses.

JHMEG

Guell72 wrote: »

I travel by ferry a lot too and my experience is that there are a lot of foot passengers.

What route do you take?