Car pricing: Cee'd Estate vs Qashqai vs Prius

Bill2673

Yo punters,

I know little about cars and thought someone might give me an opinion on this.

I'm looking to buy a new car. I want to get something fuel efficient, and also a car that I like.

The three on road that have caught my eye are the Kia Cee'd Estate version (diesel), the Nissan Qashqai (diesel), and the Prius.

What I can't understand is....

The Kia Cee'd Estate has a bigger engine that either of the others; it has a boot that is probably twice as big as the Prius and a good deal better than the Qasqai; in terms of fuel economy, its a good deal ahead of the Qashqai and not far behind the Prius.

Why is it then, that for a new model (and including scrappage for my current ten year old Passat); I am being quoted €16.5k for a new Cee'd Estate, €23.5k for a new Prius and €24k for a new Qashqai?

People who know about cars: what am I missing here?

Jip

It's all to do with perceived brand exclusivity, Kia wouldn't be seen as desirable brand. for the price you've been quoted for the Kia it would be worth looking at the new Grand Megane, or Sports Tourer as it's known everywhere else. It's a good looking car and can be got with very economical engines for the same price.

E39MSport

Can't comment on the Nissan or Toyota. But, I drove a cee'd 2 weeks ago and hated it. There's a thread on it a few pages back.

Drummerboy08

Bill2673 wrote: »

Why is it then, that for a new model (and including scrappage for my current ten year old Passat); I am being quoted €16.5k for a new Cee'd Estate, €23.5k for a new Prius and €24k for a new Qashqai?

People who know about cars: what am I missing here?

Why?

Because they're three different cars, thats why. One is an estate, one is a mini SUV, and the other is a Hybrid. There not even in the same class as each other.

Bill2673

That doesn't explain why for me......I'm sorry....

Take the Cee'd vs the Qashqai.

The Cee'd has a bigger engine (1.6 vs 1.5)

The Cee'd is more fuel efficient/ gets much better MPG

The C'eed has way more boot space.

The C'eed has lower tax

The C'eed has a 7 year warranty

So why is the Qashqai 40% more expensive....? Why is the Qashqai 40% better than the Cee'd, that warrants this price difference? Based on the above, should the Cee'd not be more expensive

Because one is crossover SUV and the other is an estate? So what.....what difference does that make. Its just the shape of the car, so what?

Because one is a Kia and the other is Nissan with a Renault engine...? Sorry, that might explain 10% difference, not 40%.....

Don't get it.

Bill2673

Thanks for the suggestions and comments by the way......suggestion on the Grand Megane is interesting.

Always thought buying a new car was a waste of money, but with the scrappage scheme and lower car tax, it might just about make sense.

Jip

Bill2673 wrote: »

Always thought buying a new car was a waste of money, but with the scrappage scheme and lower car tax, it might just about make sense.

It does to me at the moment anyway, there's some hefty discounts out there at the moment for new cars, particularly with scrappage but you can still do well on straight deals. Back in the heady days of the boom I bought a 3 year old Octavia for what was a decent price back then, but now I can get a brand new car, better spec and slightly bigger, for not a huge difference.

Henry Ford III

Kia is cheap because it has to be. It's that simple imho. The residuals will be horrendous on them too.

Tea 1000

Bill2673 wrote: »

That doesn't explain why for me......I'm sorry....

Take the Cee'd vs the Qashqai.

The Cee'd has a bigger engine (1.6 vs 1.5)

The Cee'd is more fuel efficient/ gets much better MPG

The C'eed has way more boot space.

The C'eed has lower tax

The C'eed has a 7 year warranty

So why is the Qashqai 40% more expensive....? Why is the Qashqai 40% better than the Cee'd, that warrants this price difference? Based on the above, should the Cee'd not be more expensive

Because one is crossover SUV and the other is an estate? So what.....what difference does that make. Its just the shape of the car, so what?

Because one is a Kia and the other is Nissan with a Renault engine...? Sorry, that might explain 10% difference, not 40%.....

Don't get it.

You're assuming that the more fuel efficient a car is the more expensive it should be! By your reckoning, a Bugatti Veyron should have a boot the size of a transit and do 500 miles to the gallon!
In reality though it's all about product image, which includes brand image (ie manufacturer) and actual product category (ie coupe, SUV, estate, saloon etc). Why was the first iPhone far more expensive than, say a Sony Ericsson K800i? The K800 had 3G, could do video calls, had all the features of the iPhone and more, yet was far cheaper. For many people however, the brand, touch screen and design of the iPhone was what they wanted.
SUV's have big appeal in this country, people like the "high up" position, they like the perceived safety image, they like the actual image and status of the vehicle itself based on other similar minded people who rate the same qualities highly.
Estates are and always were held in low esteem here. Despite their practicality over a Saloon with no drawbacks or compromises on handling.
Then there's quality of components and development costs. What did the manufacturer put emphasis on? Style? Cleverness of design? Chassis? Quality of interior? Budget costs?
Often the biggest factor however is brand. If a car with X qualities is worth €Y, then you can list all the brands and add a different percentage premium onto €Y depending on brand. Kia would have 0% increase!
The C'eed would be more economical due to it being lighter, more aerodynamic and no 4WD - ie not an SUV!
The Prius is dear because it costs a lot to develop a hybrid and batteries are very expensive. I doubt Kia could have a hybrid on the market for much cheaper. That doesn't mean the Prius is any good however!

Jip

Tea 1000 wrote: »

Estates are and always were held in low esteem here. Despite their practicality over a Saloon with no drawbacks or compromises on handling.

That's something I've never understood. Take my situation for example, we've a kid and several dogs so the first thing I thought of when looking to change one of our saloons was an estate. Although most of them over the last 10 years are fairly ugly there's some decent looking ones now. But as you say, they're practical and spacious and handle pretty much the same as the car they're derived from.

Why anyone in a similar situation would go for an MPV I don't know, in all the ones I've looked at the boot space is probably smaller than a reasonably sized saloon, you wouldn't get a whole lot into it, plus I imagine the handling is not great. I've watched several neighbours struggle with trying to fit in all their gear plus the kids when going away for example.

Tea 1000

Jip wrote: »

That's something I've never understood. Take my situation for example, we've a kid and several dogs so the first thing I thought of when looking to change one of our saloons was an estate. Although most of them over the last 10 years are fairly ugly there's some decent looking ones now. But as you say, they're practical and spacious and handle pretty much the same as the car they're derived from.

Why anyone in a similar situation would go for an MPV I don't know, in all the ones I've looked at the boot space is probably smaller than a reasonably sized saloon, you wouldn't get a whole lot into it, plus I imagine the handling is not great. I've watched several neighbours struggle with trying to fit in all their gear plus the kids when going away for example.

The advantage though is that 2nd hand Estates are cheaper for we wise ones to buy! Don't tell the rest!!

Zubeneschamali

Bill2673 wrote: »

Why is it then, that for a new model (and including scrappage for my current ten year old Passat); I am being quoted €16.5k for a new Cee'd Estate, €23.5k for a new Prius and €24k for a new Qashqai?

I wouldn't buy any of those cars, myself.

The Qashqai looks a bit like an off-roader, and off-roaders were fashionable for a few years, so it sells for more than it's worth, even though it's really a boring Almera replacement to drive.

The Prius costs a lot because it has two motors and lots of batteries. People pay extra for it so that they can kid themselves they are saving cute Polar bear cubs.

Kia are only a few years and one model cycle from the days when they made complete rubbish. People don't trust them, so they have to be cheap and offer a long warranty. If you buy one, you can still expect to lose about as much over 3 years as you would if you bought a Golf, so the economics are not as simple as the low sticker price.

Drummerboy08

Bill2673 wrote: »

That doesn't explain why for me......I'm sorry....

Take the Cee'd vs the Qashqai.

The Cee'd has a bigger engine (1.6 vs 1.5)

The Cee'd is more fuel efficient/ gets much better MPG

The C'eed has way more boot space.

The C'eed has lower tax

The C'eed has a 7 year warranty

So why is the Qashqai 40% more expensive....? Why is the Qashqai 40% better than the Cee'd, that warrants this price difference? Based on the above, should the Cee'd not be more expensive

Because one is crossover SUV and the other is an estate? So what.....what difference does that make. Its just the shape of the car, so what?

Because one is a Kia and the other is Nissan with a Renault engine...? Sorry, that might explain 10% difference, not 40%.....

Don't get it.

So on that basis, a Ferrari or Lambo or Bugatti should be cheaper than a Kia C'eed Estate because they are not as fuel effcient or dont have a big boot?

Leonard Hofstadter

Bill2673 wrote: »

Always thought buying a new car was a waste of money.

It still is. There are loads of much better low road tax 08 and 09 cars out there than the ones you have picked!

Don't be fooled into thinking that by getting a measly €1500 for your 10 year old car all of a sudden makes it worthwhile to buy new. You'd still save thousands by buying a 2 year old car. Plus, your old car gets to stay on the road and someone who might want such a car can buy it(and there will be a buyer for a Passat, you can be guaranteed that). Scrapping an "old" car for the sake of getting "€1500" for it doesn't make sense to me(there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that dealers are not actually giving the €1500 off in VRT either, I experienced this first hand myself where a dealer was only giving about €500 with scrappage than a straight deal), your Passat is from the days when they built them properly so it is far from life expired assuming it has been looked after.

If you must change, then it should be pointed out that the Prius has the largest engine, at 1.8 litres.

As to why the Cee'd with its 1.6 is in a better tax band than the 1.5 Quashcow, it's very simple: Irish people have a great phobia about anything with an anyway even close to a "large" engine and there is a common misconception that bigger engine = more fuel consumption in this country.

In truth engine size is only a very small factor, aerodynamics, weight, the way the gears are set up and the abilities of the car makers to make efficient engines as well as gadgets like auto stop and start are what really determines fuel consumption.

The Kia is probably lighter than a Quashcow, unquestionably much more aerodynamic so that's why it does better on mpg and hence CO2/road tax.

Anyway a nice sensible used 08 Focus 1.8 diesel which also has €156 road tax is by far the best option OP if you're looking to come up a good few years.

Jip

captainspeed wrote: »

Irish people have a great phobia about anything with an anyway even close to a "large" engine and there is a common misconception that bigger engine = more fuel consumption in this country.

Not at all. Fuel consumption has only become a concern in recent years. The biggest reason has always been insurance, anything with a half decent bit of power in this country has always been a no go due to the extortionate insurance costs. It's not too bad now but that's been the main reason, with car tax thrown in there too. I don't think the cost of petrol has been a big issue, especially as up until a few years ago fuel costs have been relatively low in this country,

jimmycrackcorm

E39MSport wrote: »

Can't comment on the Nissan or Toyota. But, I drove a cee'd 2 weeks ago and hated it. There's a thread on it a few pages back.

That's simply a matter of personal opinion, I drove the SIL's Cee'd and loved it.

As for the comment on Residuals, if you want to sell the car after say 4 years, the extra three year warranty is a huge bonus.

Bigus

You'll probably never get a new car as cheap as at the moment.

Depreciation on a Ceed estate will not be horrendous and definitely better than a Renault. Ceed SW is Good looking car good power brilliant ecomomy and great warranty, second hand ceeds sell quickly too.

AFAIK new Prius are sold out in Ireland for the year.

So bite the bullet and go for a New SW.

Epitaph

Been looking into this myself, Ceed SW vs Jetta vs Qashqai. Yet to take a test-drive as I'm in no great hurry to change, but the SW is looking better with the quoted 60mpg mileage, Tax Band B and price. But God, the Comfortline Jetta is nice to sit in.

Bill2673 wrote: »

Why is it then, that for a new model (and including scrappage for my current ten year old Passat); I am being quoted €16.5k for a new Cee'd Estate...

Bill, can you PM me who's offering you this? Much haggling involved? I've been quoted €17-19k after a €2.5k trade-in for both diesel specs.

Bill2673

Epitaph,

That was from one of the main dealers......its was for the cheapest spec version of the car (which I believe is not generally available, as supposedly 'sure no one goes for that one at all' according to the various dealers). And the price includes €1500 off for scrappage, and he listed a few other discounts, I'm not sure if the scrappage was doubled or not. But it didn't involve any haggling, it was an over the phone price.

Bill2673

Thanks for all the comments folks. its an interesting debate.

In terms of answering the question, I think Tea1000 comes closest (to explaining it in a why I can understand)....with the iPhone analogy.

The Qashqai is the first of its kind (to my knowledge), as a crossover SUV...it doesn't do anything special in terms of performance, but compared to a Focus or Golf or C'eed, it looks good. The iPhone analogy is a good one.

But this does lead to the question of residuals...the price of the iPhone fell off very rapidly. And again on this analogy....Nokia have been the big winners in the past 6 months (globally) in the Smartphone space, basically by producing Cheap smartphones.

Similarly, for the Qashqai, there are about 6 or 7 copycats of the Qashqai out right now, such as the new Peugeot 3008....these guys will start competing on price quite soon, and this will be reflected in residuals within 3 years. So I'd actually be more worried about residuals on a Qashqai than a Cee'd.

In general, something I;m concious of when buying a car is: how much do I want to spend per annum on an Auto, all in. For me, that amount is between €4k and €5k. Before tax, that amound €7k to €8k, which is a big part of my income. Huge, given the amount of time I spend in a car.

Stripping out insurance, tax, fuel costs, services and repair/maintenance....I reckon that allows €2k per annum for depreciation. So over a five year period I'm happy to let a car depreciate by €10k total, not more. On that basis, there is no way I would buy a new Qashqai.....I could, but there is no way I would.

As a matter of interest, does anyone else look at a car purchase this way?

Tea 1000

Bill2673 wrote: »

As a matter of interest, does anyone else look at a car purchase this way?

Sometimes, it'd be one of the things I'd consider. Overall cost of ownership. Most often it comes down to finding an absolute mint 10 year old car and buying it than buying something very fresh that makes the most sense, but it all depends on the mileage per year.

Henry Ford III

This 7 year warranty and expected high residuals on a Kia is an urban myth I think.

The leasing co's charge considerably more for a Ceed lease than either a Focus or similar.

Go figure.

dizzydiesel

Kia is very attractive with a 7 year warranty.

Bill2673

Henry, I haven't inquired about the warranty, and would take with a grain of salt to be honest.....

My guess is that there is a caveat that it has to be serviced every 6 months with a recognised kia dealer at some exorbitant price in order to qualify.

Tea1000....you are probably right, but I don't have the know how to pick out an impeccable ten year old car, and one thing I don't like is having to deal garage men on repairs "i've got bad news for you" is something that I nearly expect every time I leave a car in.....
Also, car tax is an issue, ie that the regime favours newer models.

granturismo

Bill2673 wrote: »

Similarly, for the Qashqai, there are about 6 or 7 copycats of the Qashqai out right now, such as the new Peugeot 3008....these guys will start competing on price quite soon, and this will be reflected in residuals within 3 years. So I'd actually be more worried about residuals on a Qashqai than a Cee'd.

There's also supply&demand - is there still a high demand on Qashqais? - obviously not as much as 2008/2009 but if the demand is relatively high, the price will reflect this.

I bought a cee'd SW in Jan 09 and the deciding factor for me was immdeiate cost to buy, running costs over the next few years (including a 3 year interest free loan from Kia) plus the 5+2 year warranty. I dont think Kia are offering interest free loans now.

I also tried the Qashqai and Megane and found the drivers seat very comfortable.

Drummerboy08

Henry Ford III wrote: »

The leasing co's charge considerably more for a Ceed lease than either a Focus or similar.

Go figure.

Because depending on Spec, the Focus is often cheaper than the C'eed. Big discount on the Ford at the minute.

granturismo

Bill2673 wrote: »

My guess is that there is a caveat that it has to be serviced every 6 months with a recognised kia dealer at some exorbitant price in order to qualify.

The only stipulation in Kia's warranty is governed by an EU directive and applies to all other marques - the car can be serviced by any dealer/independent with Kia or suitable OEM parts. Service intervals are 12 month/15-20K Km.

Terms of what is covered in the first 5 years and following 2 years is briefly covered here
http://www.kiamotors.ie/7yw

Jip

Bill2673 wrote: »

such as the new Peugeot 3008....

Was behind one this morning, first one I saw either in the flesh or in photos, it's one ugly motor, from behind anyway.

Epitaph

Thanks for the info Bill.

Took the plunge on the Ceed SW yesterday, quite happy with the minor exception of no sunroof :rolleyes:. First time owning a diesel, nice bit of pull at the mid/high side of each gear, and the boot is titanic. No niggles with the seating position, which for me is quite high after an old Primera but not as out-the-windscreen a Fiesta.

Bigus

Best of luck with the new motor Epitaph. keep us posted after your first impressions.

toby2111

Bill2673 wrote: »

Henry, I haven't inquired about the warranty, and would take with a grain of salt to be honest.....

My guess is that there is a caveat that it has to be serviced every 6 months with a recognised kia dealer at some exorbitant price in order to qualify.

Tea1000....you are probably right, but I don't have the know how to pick out an impeccable ten year old car, and one thing I don't like is having to deal garage men on repairs "i've got bad news for you" is something that I nearly expect every time I leave a car in.....
Also, car tax is an issue, ie that the regime favours newer models.

Only stipulaion AFAIK is that genuine Kia parts have to be used at all times so you dont even have to go to a listed Kia dealer.By the way,Qashqai's way over priced in my opinion!