New DCC (Dublin City Centre) 30kph limit

Cookie_Monster

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/absurd-speed-limit-plan-attacked-2038100.html

Looks like things will soon be crazy. Can you just imagine it now?





Taken from Motors, I'm surprised it hasn't come up here yet!

arybvtcw0eolkf

Its like a bad joke.

More than once I've tried driving at 30kph and my car is a nightmare @ that speed, why?... Because the auto gearbox is undecided about 2nd & 3rd gear so it jumps between both.

If AGS enforce this law its gonna be like shooting fish in a barrel with taxi's, buses, cyclists, private motorists getting it in the neck, and I'd even guess than a good skateboarder would break this speed limit

JimsAlterEgo

a joke, even 40 would be better. You get up to 40 without even noticing it.

whosedaddy?

It's an Irish solution to an Irish problem...

Sure its the car/truck/bus driver that walks away less injured, but is it always them causing the accident? I can't see any pedetrian / cyclist programme to enhance their traffic behaviour, contributing to minimising the numbers of accident.

Anecdotal evidence... I was cycling down O'Connell street at 7pm the other day and had to stop at lights at the bridge... traffic on the north quays was heavy enough - all lanes had cars on them.
While waiting, I was overtaken my cyclist (whose aggressive cycling down O'C street drew my attention earlier) and, without breaking, he contiued into the junction and weaved his way through the crossing quay's traffic...
I have no idea how he survived this without being hit...
The other cycists waiting at the light were just left speechless....
But if he had been hit, I'm sure it would be in the statistics why to reduce car traffic speeds in Dublin...

loyatemu

"The 30kph limit will apply 24 hours a day, regardless of traffic volumes or the size and capacity of roads in the area."

do speed limits not always apply 24 hrs a day? the only place in Ireland I know of with variable limits is the port tunnel.

Dublin City Council do not want private motorists driving through the city centre, this is just part of that strategy.

WindSock

I drive through the city in the evenings after college, I am tired and I just want to get home. (not too tired to drive though...)

The city is near empty at that time. This is just silly. Even a chap from the AA said it was a load of codswallop, and it will only frustrate drivers further.

Cookie_Monster

loyatemu wrote: »

do speed limits not always apply 24 hrs a day? the only place in Ireland I know of with variable limits is the port tunnel.

The only other example I can think of remotely similar is the new N11 limits from Foxrock to Loughlistown. Bus lane is 60, 2 other lanes 80. A bit odd but not variable

Dun Laoghaire now has 30 kph limits for most of the town, totally ignored so it is.

markpb

WindSock wrote: »

Even a chap from the AA said it was a load of codswallop

Aye. The AA are well known for representing pedestrians

WindSock

Aren't we all pedestrians?

shotamoose

WindSock wrote: »

Aren't we all pedestrians?

Exactly why we need low speed limits in dense city centre areas.

foggy_lad

i think it is a great idea and should be extended to a much larger area of the city centre, most cars and vans are travelling too fast around the city streets and drivers rarely look out for cyclists pedestrians or anything else as they are either too busy working or on the way to work or home and are half asleep this will at least give cyclists and pedestrians a better chance of survival in the event of a collision.

AlekSmart

It`s yet another example of a country which has lost all semblance of common sense and the ability to do joined-up thinking.

Dublin City Council,if it were to bother its corporate self could within seconds discover many schemes and innovations deserving of it`s attention in the City Centre.

This crackpottery is most definitely not one.

Ireland has for some time now been an avid follower of the UK principle of legislating for EVERY possible aspect of life.
This in turn leads to a populace which becomes tired,lazy and unable to support even the most basic principles of self existance.

I caught the tail-end of some high-ranking political figure speaking on a radio chat-show yesterday and heard him wax lyrical about Heidlberg in Germany,which apparently has proven the efficacy of this 30Kph limit.....

The presenter however,failed to enquire from our Political God as to whether Heidlberg also posessed functional mains water supplies.......

Morlar

This is just all part of the public sector go-slow Seriously though this is nuts. They really seem to be getting further and further away from reality. If I had to guess I would say green party lefty 'wooden bicycle' owning hippies in control over there

RobbieTheRobber

So its a bad idea thats what everyone says, so what is an acceptable speed limit for driving in built up areas such as through cities?

shotamoose

Look, the reason why DCC are doing this is because 30km/h speed limits in crowded urban areas are proven to save lives. If you are more worried about a few minutes being added to your journey then you really need to get a sense of perspective.

Boom_Bap

AlekSmart wrote: »

I caught the tail-end of some high-ranking political figure speaking on a radio chat-show yesterday and heard him wax lyrical about Heidlberg in Germany,which apparently has proven the efficacy of this 30Kph limit.....

It works well there because nobody drives through Heidleberg. Also most of the streets are cobbled so driving fasster than 30 would be a rough ride.

RobbieTheRobber

shotamouse wrote: »

Look, the reason why DCC are doing this is because 30km/h speed limits in crowded urban areas are proven to save lives. If you are more worried about a few minutes being added to your journey then you really need to get a sense of perspective.

Exactly for example

Hull council, which introduced a 20 mph limit in residential areas, saw a 74% reduction in crashes involving child pedestrians and a 69% reduction in child cycle collisions in the three years since the zones' introduction, compared with the three years before the limit changed. Overall, there has been a 90% reduction in serious and fatal injuries, and a 60% overall decrease of all casualties.

Now isn't saving children more important than rushing home to catch that episode of corination street

RobbieTheRobber

Boom_Bap wrote: »

It works well there because nobody drives through Heidleberg. Also most of the streets are cobbled so driving fasster than 30 would be a rough ride.

right nobody goes through heildberg, yeah ok so how about London a lot of people go through there right?

A Transport for London (TfL) review in 2003 of 20 mph zones in London boroughs said that installation of these reduced road user casualties within the zones by 45% and fatal or serious casualties (KSI) by about 57%. The KSI rate for children fell by 60% .

Heroditas

foggy_lad wrote: »

i think it is a great idea and should be extended to a much larger area of the city centre, most cars and vans are travelling too fast around the city streets and drivers rarely look out for cyclists pedestrians or anything else as they are either too busy working or on the way to work or home and are half asleep this will at least give cyclists and pedestrians a better chance of survival in the event of a collision.

Why don't the authorities do something about jaywalking?
It's always the driver's fault, never the poor drunken/stupid/mobile phone glued to ear pedestrian who meanders out onto the road and then crosses a few lanes diagonally :rolleyes:

Boom_Bap

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

right nobody goes through heildberg, yeah ok so how about London a lot of people go through there right?

i'm not saying it's a good or bad idea.....just trying to make a point that it's not a good comparison to be used.
Your London comparison is a much more valid example.

RobbieTheRobber

Heroditas wrote: »

Why don't the authorities do something about jaywalking?
It's always the driver's fault, never the poor drunken/stupid/mobile phone glued to ear pedestrian who meanders out onto the road and then crosses a few lanes diagonally :rolleyes:

They should also fix cameras to every traffic light and catch all drivers who speed through orange or red lights

RobbieTheRobber

Here is a graph that shows how increases in speed relate to increases in injuries or deaths in road crashes.

Its a bit small but if you look at it you see that the increase from 30kph by just 5 kilometres an hours casues an increase of 5% in the deaths of pedestrians involved in motor accidents and then from 35kph to 40 kph is a further 10% increase in the case of accidents of the pedestrian dying.

I dont see how trying to save peoples lives is in any way a bad thing there isn't a survey or study in the world that can agree wiht higher speeds than 30kph within built up areas especially cities.

Cookie_Monster

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

They should also fix cameras to every traffic light and catch all drivers who speed through orange or red lights

nothing wrong with driving through an orange light

RobbieTheRobber

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

nothing wrong with driving through an orange light

There is in increasing speed to get through it.

Cookie_Monster

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

There is in increasing speed to get through it.

if you can't stop before the line when the light is orange you may as well go faster to clear the junction as fast as possible

RobbieTheRobber

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

if you can't stop before the line when the light is orange you may as well go faster to clear the junction as fast as possible

Indeed. However speeding through orange lights and jaywalkign aren't really the topic under discussion here. This thread was about DCC's 30 Kph speed limit wasn't it?

Cookie_Monster

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Indeed. However speeding through orange lights and jaywalkign aren't really the topic under discussion here. This thread was about DCC's 30 Kph speed limit wasn't it?

true.

looking at the area covered i really don't see how they can manage or enforce this at all.

There must be someone in the DCC having a bet to see who can get away with implementing the most stupid policy

RobbieTheRobber

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

true.

looking at the area covered i really don't see how they can manage or enforce this at all.

There must be someone in the DCC having a bet to see who can get away with implementing the most stupid policy

I have only looked at the map now.

To be honest I dont really see what the issue is the areas they are changing should not have a massive effect on traffic within the city.

http://www.dublincity.ie/RoadsandTraffic/RoadSafety/Documents/3369%20_04%20Sept%2009%20City%20Centre%2030%20kph%20zone.pdf
(Link added to pdf of the map from DCC)

I would like to see the results of any survey done on exisiting average speeds on these roads ( i dont think it will be that much in excess of 30 kph now). The areas where this speed limit will apply are in the very centre of the city and I would agree with DCC that exceeding 30kph within these areas is unreasonable and dangerous to other road users especially pedestrians.

seamus

It's not the best thought out plan in the world. Though I can't see this having any major effect.

The attached is the rough area of the limit, according to that article.

Within these roads, it's rare that you'll get up past 30kph at the following times:

8am - 2pm, Mon - Fri
4pm - 7pm, Mon - Fri
12pm - 4pm, Sat & Sun
8pm - 10pm, Fri & Sat
12am - 3am, Sat & Sun

Which basically means that for most people, a 30kph limit will make little difference.

The overall aim here is to remove the immediate city centre (the bit that was the original Dublin way back in Viking times) as an attractive thoroughfare for traffic in the city. To encourage people onto the circular routes and the M50. Ideally if you're travelling within these boundaries, it's because you're going shopping or similar.

And this is only going to get worse. We'll see O'Connell street becoming completely closed off for any traffic except busses and taxis soon enough and I wouldn't be surprised if they made it extremely difficult (through bus lanes and one-way streets) for people to get to O'Connell bridge.

Cookie_Monster

seamus wrote: »

The overall aim here is to remove the immediate city centre (the bit that was the original Dublin way back in Viking times) as an attractive thoroughfare for traffic in the city. To encourage people onto the circular routes and the M50. Ideally if you're travelling within these boundaries, it's because you're going shopping or similar.

If that the case why couldn't they have waited till the M50 is actually finished to 3 lane the whole length?

(apart from the fact the M50 will probably never be finished :P)

Zubeneschamali

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Look, if cars are limited to 0 kph, there'd be no fatalities at all!

Ban cars, think of the children!

Spiritoftheseventies

WindSock wrote: »

I drive through the city in the evenings after college, I am tired and I just want to get home. (not too tired to drive though...)

The city is near empty at that time. This is just silly. Even a chap from the AA said it was a load of codswallop, and it will only frustrate drivers further.

I assume the law was brought in for pedestrian safety. But its a very slow limit to be having especially on a quiet night. Maybe put in a few zebra crossings instead?

RobbieTheRobber

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

I assume the law was brought in for pedestrian safety. But its a very slow limit to be having especially on a quiet night. Maybe put in a few zebra crossings instead?

Zebra crossings have no effect if a car is travelling at a high speed, they cant stop any quicker just becasue they are near a zebra crossing.

markpb

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

Maybe put in a few zebra crossings instead?

In my experience, very few drivers (in Ireland) stop for pedestrians at zebra crossings.

seamus

markpb wrote: »

In my experience, very few drivers (in Ireland) stop for pedestrians at zebra crossings.

Mainly because they're so rare and signal-controlled pedestrian crossings have been the choice of county councils since the late 80's.
Although it's part of the driving test "curriculum", very few drivers encounter them at all, so they forget what to do when they approach them.

RobbieTheRobber

seamus wrote: »

Within these roads, it's rare that you'll get up past 30kph at the following times:

8am - 2pm, Mon - Fri
4pm - 7pm, Mon - Fri
12pm - 4pm, Sat & Sun
8pm - 10pm, Fri & Sat
12am - 3am, Sat & Sun

Which basically means that for most people, a 30kph limit will make little difference.

.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Look, if cars are limited to 0 kph, there'd be no fatalities at all!

Ban cars, think of the children!

There is no need to get silly now is there.

In most cities I think drivers would find it hard to exceed an average speed of 35kph in normal circumstances. See Seamus's post where he points this out.

The reason I used the graph was to show why 30kph is becoming an accepted limit around the world for city centres and built up residental areas.

And that reason is at 30kph you have reduced the risk of death from an accident to very low levels, nearing I would say acceptable levels of loss. ( anyone who has lost a family member or friend will obviously and uderstandably point out there is no acceptable loss)

Spiritoftheseventies

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Zebra crossings have no effect if a car is travelling at a high speed, they cant stop any quicker just becasue they are near a zebra crossing.

what i am saying is that in parts of the city particularly west moreland street some like to cross over at fleet street towards temple bar and so on.
So cars would still be allowed to travel at 50k limit while still observing the zebra crossing signs.

markpb

seamus wrote: »

Although it's part of the driving test "curriculum", very few drivers encounter them at all, so they forget what to do when they approach them.

Really? Is it not obvious? I mean that as a genuine question.

Cookie_Monster

markpb wrote: »

Really? Is it not obvious? I mean that as a genuine question.

+1,

I think what happens though is that pedestrians here stop expecting cars to stop so stop themselves before crossing so the driver thinks "ah he's waiting for me to carry on, how nice" and then just does that in future.

seamus

Really? Is it not obvious? I mean that as a genuine question.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I think what happens though is that pedestrians here stop expecting cars to stop so stop themselves before crossing so the driver thinks "ah he's waiting for me to carry on, how nice" and then just does that in future.

Yep, what he says. Drivers will have some vague recollection about flashing orange beacons, but if they haven't had to put the rules into practice, they won't really remember them.

If you imagine someone who passed their driving test and did years of driving without ever encountering a roundabout. At the time of passing their test, they knew (ish) the rules, but never put them into practice. Do you think then if they encountered a roundabout one day after 5 years, they'd instantly know what to do and how to act?
This isn't all that ridiculous, up to a few years ago there was one county (Leitrim?) that was famous for having no roundabouts and certainly 40 years ago they would have been unknown outside of Dublin, Cork and the other big towns.

The same applies to zerba crossings really. I can't recall the last time I encountered one. If you asked me to tell you where one was located in Dublin, I couldn't even tell you.

Spiritoftheseventies

So where exactly does city centre end begin with in terms of new speed limit?

RobbieTheRobber

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

what i am saying is that in parts of the city particularly west moreland street some like to cross over at fleet street towards temple bar and so on.
So cars would still be allowed to travel at 50k limit while still observing the zebra crossing signs.

It doesn't work sadly, we are all assuming everyone is a good driver and that is not the case. I really think there should be re-testing done for licenses maybe every five years or so, because bad habits do creep in and become part of drivers norm, so after 20, 30 or 40 years post test how many habits have crept in.

Anyway back to the topic of speed, in built up areas especially cities you have a lot of pedestrians and once you have a top speed of 50kph as oppossed to a top of 30 kph you begin to seriously increase the chances of death following what is effectively a minor incident ( one of the hundred thousand in dublin city every day dont look and step onto a road, or a driver not keeping their eyes on the road perhaps distracted by something)

RobbieTheRobber

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

So where exactly does city centre end begin with in terms of new speed limit?

here si the link from the DCC site with map included its not a massive area
http://www.dublincity.ie/RoadsandTraffic/RoadSafety/Documents/3369%20_04%20Sept%2009%20City%20Centre%2030%20kph%20zone.pdf

Spiritoftheseventies

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

here si the link from the DCC site with map included its not a massive area
http://www.dublincity.ie/RoadsandTra...kph%20zone.pdf

got a bad request message when i clicked on link

RobbieTheRobber

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

got a bad request message when i clicked on link

This is a larger map of the whole city its not the link i had earlier

http://www.dublincity.ie/Documents/Map.pdf

or this link will bring you to DCC's page about the changes and there is a link to asmaller area map showing the changes
http://www.dublincity.ie/RoadsandTraffic/RoadSafety/Pages/SpeedLimits.aspx

munchkin_utd

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

got a bad request message when i clicked on link

heres the proper link
It is actually not a massive area that they are extending it to.

http://www.dublincity.ie/RoadsandTraffic/RoadSafety/Documents/3369%20_04%20Sept%2009%20City%20Centre%2030%20kph%20zone.pdf

Spiritoftheseventies

cheers. here is the list.

Areas where the 30 km/h speed limit is in force
Roads in the Marino Area

* Brian Road
* Brian Terrace
* Brian Avenue
* Carlton Road
* Casino Road
* Croydon Green
* Croydon Gardens
* Croydon Park Avenue
* Croydon Terrace
* Fairview Avenue Upper
* Fairview Avenue Lower
* Fairview Green
* Fairview Terrace
* Haverty Road
* Marino Green
* Marino Mart (part of, from Haverty Road south to Fairview)
* Marino Park
* Merville Avenue
* Morrogh Terrace
* Philipsburgh Terrace
* Shelmartin Avenue
* Shelmartin Terrace
* St. Aidan’s Park Avenue
* St. Aidan’s Park
* St. Declan Road
* St. Declan Terrace
* St. Joseph’s Terrace
* Torlogh Parade
* Windsor Avenue
* Windsor Lane
* Windsor Villas

Roads in the Ballsbridge Area

* Pembroke Lane.
* Wellington Lane.
* Heytesbury Lane
* Raglan Lane.
* Waterloo Lane

Roads in the City Centre Area

Roads in a city centre zone – Bounded by King Street North, Bolton Street, Dorset Street Upper, Dorset Street Lower, Gardiner Street Upper, Mountjoy Square West, Gardiner Street Middle, Gardiner Street Lower, Beresford Place,Butt Bridge, Tara Street, Pearse Street, College Street, College Green, Grafton Street, Nassau Street, Leinster Street South , Clare Street, Merrion Square West, Merrion Street Upper, Merrion Row, St. Stephen’s Green North, St. Stephen’s Green West, Cuffe Street, Kevin Street Lower,Bride Street, Bride Road, Nicholas Street, High Street, Bridge Street Upper, Bridge Street Lower, Father Mathew Bridge, Church Street excluding these boundary roads with the exception of Pearse Street ( between Tara Street and College Street), College Street, College Green, Grafton Street, Nassau Street, St. Stephen’s Green West, St. Stephen’s North( between Dawson Street and Grafton Street)
Roads in the Ringsend Area

* Aikenhead Terrace
* Celestine Avenue
* Dermot O’Hurley Avenue
* Doris Street
* Fitzwilliam Quay
* Gerald Street
* Gordon Street
* Hastings Street
* Hope Street
* Howard Street
* Joy Street
* Magdalen Terrace
* Ormeau Street
* Oliver Plunkett Avenue
* Philomena Terrace
* Penrose Street
* Somerset Street
* South Dock Place
* South Dock Street
* Rosary Terrace
* Veronica Terrace

daymobrew

seamus wrote: »

The same applies to zerba crossings really. I can't recall the last time I encountered one. If you asked me to tell you where one was located in Dublin, I couldn't even tell you.

There is one at Blanchardstown Centre between the library and the main centre.
I think that it is brilliant - the pedestrian lights can be very slow to change (and are sometimes turned off to keep traffic moving :rolleyes: ).

I don't think that zebra crossings would work in the city because the volume of pedestrians would mean that vehicles would never get to move.

Maldini2706

Plenty of reasons why this is a good move so far in this thread and no reasons why it's a bad move. Can anyone explain why they're against it apart from it being "a joke" or "stupid"?

Victor

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/absurd-speed-limit-plan-attacked-2038100.html

Transport chiefs

It then goes on to only quote Conor Faughnan, who works for a private company.

Spiritoftheseventies

Penalty points or speeding fines. Which one? Anyone know?