New DCC (Dublin City Centre) 30kph limit

Cookie_Monster

On a related note everyone in work here who drives the M50 said it was awful this morning. I take it this is due to the people who normally cut through town in the morning using the motorway instead.

Good planning indeed, at least wait till its finished

spank_inferno

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

On a related note everyone in work here who drives the M50 said it was awful this morning. I take it this is due to the people who normally cut through town in the morning using the motorway instead.

Good planning indeed, at least wait till its finished

But isnt that what Ring roads are supposed to be there for?

The M50 was slower than the norm today but it was a Tuesday and it was raining so its nothing surprising.

Stark

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

On a related note everyone in work here who drives the M50 said it was awful this morning. I take it this is due to the people who normally cut through town in the morning using the motorway instead.

Good planning indeed, at least wait till its finished

I take it it's due to the crash this morning reducing the M50 to one lane between Firhouse and Ballinteer and unusually heavy traffic coming in from the N7 and the N4.

Like the few cars who actually do make use of the short downgraded limit sections to get across the city would make a difference.

faceman

well, here's my experience with the new speed limit. Im not going to comment on the safety aspect as I dont have any stats to say whether it will make a difference. I dont believe it will but that aside.

I was driving from Summerhill to Dame St last night, via Parnell St, Capel St, Parliment St onto Dame Street. There was only one 30km/h sign the whole route I travelled; which was located where Summerhill meets Parnell St. It was also on the "other" side of the road. The sign that should have been on my side, was facing the wrong direction (i.e. the wall) so you couldnt see it. There were no other signs along the way.

If the DCC is going to enforce this, there needs to be better signage and warning signage on the route. Similar to the signage on the M50 when approaching the toll or in London when entering the congestion zone charge. I reckon it would be very easy to challenge a speeding fine in court given the poor signage.

Whatever about dubs who drive the route daily and have been following the story since it was introduced, anyone who doesnt drive visit Dublin often is not going to be clear on the scheme.

Oh and that stuff about obeying the speed limit and meeting green lights all the way. About 60% of the traffic lights I met were red.

Im going to email the DCC about my experience, for what its worth...

BostonB

On my route it was on the info displays I passed, and also in fairness Most of the time theres a 30kph sign where the zone starts and a 50kph where the zone starts. I only noticed one place where there isn't a 30kph sign. That said I duck in and out of the zone twice on my route through town, so its not always obvious, which explains why theres a lot of people crawling at 20mph in a 50kph. Wish they'd move to the left lane though.

On thinking about it, and using if for the day, I don't really have a problem with it, just feels very slow in the car. So will take a bit of getting used to it. I thought it was on the bigger roads on my route but it isn't.

I don't think they'll enforce it though. They'll just catch a few people out, then forget about it. Seeing a speed trap of any kind is a rare thing on my route. Maybe one or two every two years. Maybe less.

gurramok

Funny about these 'green waves' of lights. On their past experience of traffic lights, do not trust DCC to get it right.

For example, it is actually slower to use the new Samuel Beckett bridge due to non-sequencing of about 8 sets of lights(northbound) in that the journey is nearly all stop start. Great for pollution and congestion.
You cannot actually pass over the bridge northbound from a green light at Macken st without stopping as there is always a red light sequenced before you get off the bridge. Thats how pathetic DCC are.

The result? Alot of traffic has not been using the new bridge as it is probably quicker to use the old route of Pearse st/Amiens st/Gardiner st to cross the river. (add in the severe turning restrictions at the new bridge to the mix)

I thank my lucky stars that I do not have to use the quays. I bet taxi drivers will be most annoyed by the new speed limit.

Run_to_da_hills

BostonB wrote: »

I don't think they'll enforce it though. They'll just catch a few people out, then forget about it. Seeing a speed trap of any kind is a rare thing on my route. Maybe one or two every two years. Maybe less.

Wait and see, soon we will see the roll out of "congestion charge" CCTV that will also double up as average speed cameras, that will be when the fun starts.

BostonB

I hope to be back on my bike before then...

Cookie_Monster

The "green wave" will not be in place properly for years I'd imagine.

Considering the research for it is only due to start in the summer I imagine it'll be 2-3 years at the very least

thecretinhop

FFS, what a load of crap, here is where we are in this country:

FF: Destroyed economy, default will happen sooner rather than later, massive property crash, huge corruption everyday, people dying in our hospitals, our roads are falling to pieces, polluted water system, carbon tax, road tax, vrt, etc.

Massive electricity costs, massive mobile costs, a pitiful broadband system, tens of billions going into banks that should be left fall, kids in rat infested portacabins at school, a bloated public sector draining the country dry with many not contributing anything, carers allowance under threat, the prisons, how much a night to look after thugs, people with ME been thrown into dirty hospital rooms, sweet deals with the church where we pay for their abuse, pathetic sentences for murderers, teens terrorizing estates all over the country, Gardai under staffed and many filling out reports instead of on street, junkies selling drugs right in the city centre. PR hacks spinning everything, they couldnt tell the truth if it bit them on the ass

Health insurance allowed to be pushed up when they feel like it, big players in the banks stock market, directors, committing fraud, no investigation, PS corruption, jail time? Pay off time more like. Media are part of government policy most of the time now, Gerry Ryan getting half a million a year? RTE? TV license one of most expensive in Europe. Corrupt county councils in deals with solicitors to carve up local people left, right and centre. Solicitors… Highest paid medical consultants in EU. FAS schemes... need I say anymore


Greens: they are utter fanatics I know many, they believe in social engineering, that they know better than you or I, on all, they will regulate everything, what you drink, what you eat, where you live, what speed you should drive, what you believe, they will never leave government they are determined to push through their narrow path, Tara, Shannon, banking enquiry?, they don’t give a damn! Water metres, stopping one of housing, speed limits, carbon tax, food tax id say coming, green energy, green policy, etc, remember: THEY VOTED FOR NAMA (never forget this)


Well people we are where we are, this speed limit is just another brick in the wall as they say... are you going to keep taking this, grumbling, and then getting on with it, id say, "Yes we can?" more like "yes we will"


We are where we are, in the “only show in town” As a good man once said “what a great wee little country” :mad:

Patser

seamus wrote: »

No, speed limits don't apply to cyclists. I very much enjoyed overtaking the traffic on George's St this morning.

How did you manage this, did you not hit a wall of red lights designed to make the 30kmh limit self policing and any speed over 30 impossible.......

Oh wait I read on.... The 'Green Wave' isn't ready and will take a while to introduce, so Garda resources will have to be deployed to enforce this new limit. Good use of the force, deployed to protect the DCC's pet project and therefore unavailable to monitor more dangerous areas. Similar to the bus gate where there'll often be 2-3 Motorbike Gardai needed to nurse another pet project.

Cookie_Monster

Patser wrote: »

How did you manage this, did you not hit a wall of red lights designed to make the 30kmh limit self policing and any speed over 30 impossible.......

Cyclist don't have to stop at red, thats how :pac:

BostonB

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Cyclist don't have to stop at red, thats how :pac:

You mean theres little enforcement of cyclists.

I've only seen them do it at Wexford Street junction. Beside the station I guess.

AlekSmart

Dublin Mayor was on Matt Cooper this evening about this issue. Said the lights will be reprogrammed soon, so the 'Green Wave' will follow.

The key aspect of the Lord Mayors bit of puffery is her wording......"Soon" in DCC speak may not actually be this decade and "Follow" may well be two decades after that...so it`s basically academic.

It should be remembered that DCC have a long and proud history of this type of thing.

The most recent example being the unveiling of the College Green Bus Gate in advance of the new Macken St Beckett Bridge
....the implied wisdom being that the Bus Gate could not work until the Bridge was open....in fact DCC`s management of the Macken St Traffic Bridge Management function owes more to Walt Disney than to any real scenario,as a result the Bridge is spectacularly failing to justify it`s €60+Million pricetag.

This 30Kmh limit is the same....odds on it will simply slide off the radar like the Garda Jaywalking initiative some years ago,and in 6 months we`ll all be going "D`ye remember dah oul 30K limit...Ha Ha Ha"

thebman

shotamouse wrote: »

How does a 30km/h speed limit in a small area make driving 'impossible'? It just makes it slightly slower - oh the horror!

Because your not going to get anywhere at that speed, might as well hop on the train or bus. Oh wait, buses don't show up on time/at all and no room on the train.

Some people really need to get over themselves tbh, the world doesn't exist to guarantee you a nice smooth fast drive everywhere you want to go you know.

I don't ever go to CC by car and rarely go in by train/bus either, some people aren't as lucky as me and don't have a choice. Imagine thinking of other people. Sorry who needs to get over themselves? :rolleyes:

RobbieTheRobber

thebman wrote: »

Because your not going to get anywhere at that speed, might as well hop on the train or bus. Oh wait, buses don't show up on time/at all and no room on the train.

How do you know?

thebman wrote: »

I don't ever go to CC by car and rarely go in by train/bus either, some people aren't as lucky as me and don't have a choice. Imagine thinking of other people. Sorry who needs to get over themselves? :rolleyes:

Because here you say you never go in to the city, so Im wondering on what your basing your initial comment.

monument

thebman wrote: »

Because your not going to get anywhere at that speed...

The section of the quays covered is 1.4km (we'll say 1.5 for good measure), the speed limit is 30km/h.

1.5km at 30km/h is travelled in 3mins.

Could you explain what you mean about not going anywhere at that speed?

BluePlanet

thebman wrote: »

I don't ever go to CC by car and rarely go in by train/bus either, some people aren't as lucky as me and don't have a choice. Imagine thinking of other people. Sorry who needs to get over themselves? :rolleyes:

And those people have some sort of necessity to traverse the very centre of our city at speeds greater than 50kph...why exactly?

Should those people have priority over pedestrians (whom outnumber them by a huge factor) to our public space in our city centre?

Why don't those motorists just park-up somewhere just beyond the 30kph zone and you know, walk the rest of the way?
Or even take a DublinBike ffs.
Or even park at RedCow and ride the flipping LUAS.

faceman

BluePlanet wrote: »

And those people have some sort of necessity to traverse the very centre of our city at speeds greater than 50kph...why exactly?

Should those people have priority over pedestrians (whom outnumber them by a huge factor) to our public space in our city centre?

Why don't those motorists just park-up somewhere just beyond the 30kph zone and you know, walk the rest of the way?
Or even take a DublinBike ffs.
Or even park at RedCow and ride the flipping LUAS.

The Luas and Dart doesnt service all parts of Dublin. And there are very few park and ride facilities. This is a lame argument. It is usually put forward by people who live within convenience of the city centre or along the Dart/Luas lines.

If we had a public transport system like that in London then i would wholeheartedly agree. But we do not.

BluePlanet

faceman wrote: »

The Luas and Dart doesnt service all parts of Dublin. And there are very few park and ride facilities.

It doesn't need to.
In the case of this City Centre reduced speed thread, the Luas and Dart need only service the area affected by the 30kph zone. And certainly the Luas does.
Now all's we need to do is get the motorist to commandeer their car to a spot where they can parkup and catch one.

faceman

BluePlanet wrote: »

It doesn't need to.
In the case of this City Centre reduced speed thread, the Luas and Dart need only service the area affected by the 30kph zone. And certainly the Luas does.
Now all's we need to do is get the motorist to commandeer their car to a spot where they can parkup and catch one.

I dont follow.

BluePlanet

faceman wrote: »

I dont follow.

You rightly point out that the Luas and Dart do not cover "all areas" of Dublin.
But the 30kph zone is only affecting the city centre, which IS covered by the Luas and Dart.
Therefore we need only encourage those drivers in non-covered areas, to drive over (this should be done quite quickly since the speed hasn't been lowered on those roads) to a suitable park n ride facility, like RedCow.
Just an example.

This is course, only relevant to those motorists whom are too burdened by the 30kph zone that they now can or will no longer make the trip in. As claimed by anotehr poster.

ChemOC

I cycle ever day and this limit is crazy. I'll be breaking the speed limit going down a hill or with a bit of wind behind me.

How many pedestrians get killed each year in dublin city centre by cars? I'd imagine if you broke down the stats and take drunk drivers and drunk pedestrians out of the equation it would be very low or close to zero. Unless Dublin city council have the stats or a scientific paper to back up their idea it has to go!

Spiritoftheseventies

ChemOC wrote: »

I cycle ever day and this limit is crazy. I'll be breaking the speed limit going down a hill or with a bit of wind behind me.

How many pedestrians get killed each year in dublin city centre by cars? I'd imagine if you broke down the stats and take drunk drivers and drunk pedestrians out of the equation it would be very low or close to zero. Unless Dublin city council have the stats or a scientific paper to back up their idea it has to go!

think what will happen know is that more people will avoid city centre totally and take m50. More money collected on tolls in other words.

lord lucan

AlekSmart wrote: »

This 30Kmh limit is the same....odds on it will simply slide off the radar like the Garda Jaywalking initiative some years ago,and in 6 months we`ll all be going "D`ye remember dah oul 30K limit...Ha Ha Ha"

Exactly. After 3/4 weeks of GATSO's and hype this'll be forgotten about and will have the same level of enforcement as all the other highway rules. IE. SWEET F.A.

Run_to_da_hills

lord lucan wrote: »

Exactly. After 3/4 weeks of GATSO's and hype this'll be forgotten about and will have the same level of enforcement as all the other highway rules. IE. SWEET F.A.

Not if the authorities follow the UK's trend and start installing average speed cameras across the capital.

thebman

BluePlanet wrote: »

And those people have some sort of necessity to traverse the very centre of our city at speeds greater than 50kph...why exactly?

Its 30KPH which is about 20MPH which is not moving speed. The speed already was 50KPH which is a reasonable speed.

Should those people have priority over pedestrians (whom outnumber them by a huge factor) to our public space in our city centre?

On a fooking road, hell yes!!!! Most people aren't standing on the road all day in the city centre.

Why don't those motorists just park-up somewhere just beyond the 30kph zone and you know, walk the rest of the way?
Or even take a DublinBike ffs.
Or even park at RedCow and ride the flipping LUAS.

Why should they have to? It isn't dangerous unless they are crap drivers or an idiot decides they want to get hit by a car. Both of those are problems caused by individuals doing something they shouldn't so punish the individuals and not just everyone which is silly.

When I'm in the city centre, I walk everywhere. This move isn't necessary for pedestrians or at least ones with brains as they know that metal hurts when it hits them and cross in proper places when its safe to do so. I've never once at a problem with the speeds of vehicles in the city centre.

This move is for cyclists who want the road to themselves in the city centre IMO and I can understand why with some of the drivers in the country but they don't outnumber the cars on the roads in the city centre so using everyone here's own logic, fook 'em, they can just watch out and should demand that the police actually pull people over for dangerous driving.

Most of those drivers won't obey this new limit anyway.

monument

thebman wrote: »

Its 30KPH which is about 20MPH which is not moving speed.

IS that English? What does "not moving speed" mean to you?

As already posted above: The part of the quays cover is in 1.4km, and even 1.5km at 30km/h is travelled in 3mins.

Patser

monument wrote: »

This is a newer map just of the city centre released today:

http://www.dublincity.ie/RoadsandTraffic/RoadSafety/Documents/3369 _04 Sept 09 City Centre 30 kph zone.pdf

Monument had posted this over in the Motors section, but I figured it should be seen here too. This is a new much, much clearer map of the areas affected by the new limits.

As I said over in motors, it is interesting as now it shows that Gardiner St and Church St are not included in the zone, which was not clear in the original map. I mean compare and contrast to this

http://www.dublincity.ie/Documents/Map.pdf

Stark

30km/hr on the quays between Father Matthew bridge and Grattan bridge will be a pain. No reason for not allowing 50km/hr there in my opinion. As far as I'm concerned though, all the other areas are long overdue. The biggest pain about shopping in or exploring the city centre is having to plan your day to avoid crossing the quays or Dame Street too many times. Maybe with the new limit you won't have to wait 5 minutes any time you want to look in a place across the road.

thebman

monument wrote: »

IS that English? What does "not moving speed" mean to you?

As already posted above: The part of the quays cover is in 1.4km, and even 1.5km at 30km/h is travelled in 3mins.

Great but its actually hard for many cars to do 30KPH. Most will be revving much higher and burning more fuel as a result. That is why I said not moving speed. To bring across that many cars will find it difficult to do this speed without revving high in a low gear.

Worse for the environment (both air quality and noise pollution) and the cyclists health that this is supposed to be for. Its really designed to try to stop people driving in the city centre which isn't really possible for everyone as not everyone can park outside of the zone as there won't be enough spaces for one thing.

I imagine it will also lead to poor drivers conking their cars and more small accidents as a result. Its just not very well thought out as anyone that is a crap driver will most likely just ignore it anyway and it won't be properly enforced just like all our rules.

Basically the whole problem is the current rules aren't enforced. Making rules because people won't obey the existing rules is a stupid idea.

Stark

It's perfectly possible to drive in 30km/hr without over-revving the engine. And having increased fuel consumption for 3 minutes of driving isn't going to make much of a difference.

thebman

Stark wrote: »

It's perfectly possible to drive in 30km/hr without over-revving the engine. And having increased fuel consumption for 3 minutes of driving isn't going to make much of a difference.

It depends on the car. Not all cars are the same.

When your talking about one car, the pollution increase will look small I'm sure.

monument

If there was an actual problem with cars driving at 30km/h the AA -- who are against the new limit -- would be shouting from the roof tops about it.

Then again the AA is not being challenged about their other nonsense on safety which contradicts what is said by health experts back by research.

ardmacha

This speed limit makes sense in the many small streets in the city centre. However the Quays have a river on one side. In general there is nothing for pedestrians to cross to other than at junctions with bridges, all of which have signalised crossings.

The other point is that this does not just apply to motorists. Pretty much all buses in Dublin pass through this area and public transport is undermined by this measure more than private travel. This sort of measure might we useful in London or Paris where people can traverse the area using underground railways, but if your public transport runs on the surface then it is comprised.

Guell72

thebman wrote: »

It depends on the car. Not all cars are the same.

When your talking about one car, the pollution increase will look small I'm sure.

More than 1 minute - multiplied by many thousands each day.
I see what they are doing.
Carbon tax - Make people waste more fuel - More tax take.

DBCyc

thebman wrote: »

Great but its actually hard for many cars to do 30KPH. Most will be revving much higher and burning more fuel as a result. That is why I said not moving speed. To bring across that many cars will find it difficult to do this speed without revving high in a low gear.

I drove up the north quays this evening and everyone was cruising along nicely at or around 30kph. I didn't notice any cars revving really high and nobody had any difficulty driving. It was all very easy and relaxed.

Surely if you are revving high in a low gear, you change gear. I can't see how this will really have any real (as opposed to perceived) inconvenience to drivers in the city.

Stark

ardmacha wrote: »

This speed limit makes sense in the many small streets in the city centre. However the Quays have a river on one side. In general there is nothing for pedestrians to cross to other than at junctions with bridges, all of which have signalised crossings.

In order to get from where you are on the North quays to where you want to go on the South quays, you have to cross two sets of signalised crossings. And the green times aren't exactly in pedestrians' favour. And then there's the junctions where there's no green man to get straight across, so a pedestrian has to make 3 separate crossings.

ardmacha

In order to get from where you are on the North quays to where you want to go on the South quays, you have to cross two sets of signalised crossings

Then synchronise the crossings so that a person crossing on one quay at green and walking across the bridge will get a green on the other side.

Stark

seamus wrote: »

The attached is the rough area of the limit, according to that article.

Within these roads, it's rare that you'll get up past 30kph at the following times:

8am - 2pm, Mon - Fri
4pm - 7pm, Mon - Fri
12pm - 4pm, Sat & Sun
8pm - 10pm, Fri & Sat
12am - 3am, Sat & Sun

Which basically means that for most people, a 30kph limit will make little difference.

The actual area is even smaller than the area you highlighted. I drive from northside to southside through the city centre quite a bit, taking in several different routes depending on who I have to pick up (northside/southside) and none of my routes are affected by the speed limit reduction. The only time I'd ever hit the 30km/hr limit is the odd time I drive to Cineworld/Parnell street area and for those occasions, it will actually make things easier as the only 30km/hr street is the one I have to look for car parking spaces on.

Maldini2706

ardmacha wrote: »

This speed limit makes sense in the many small streets in the city centre. However the Quays have a river on one side. In general there is nothing for pedestrians to cross to other than at junctions with bridges, all of which have signalised crossings.

...and we all know how Irish people never jaywalk...

To be honest I can't remember a time I've driven down the quays and someone HASN'T stepped out in front of a car. The crossings at Aston Quay and the Haypenny are notorious for it.

I really don't understand the controversy over this, is it really that much of an inconvenience?

As far as can tell the pros and cons are:

Pros
- It has worked in other countries without any major problems
- It has led to a massive reduction in fatalities and serious injuries in other cities where it's been implemented
- It encourages people to cycle into the city centre and so takes cars off the road

Cons
- It adds a miniscule amount of time to people's journey times
- People have to concentrate while driving.

ardmacha

.and we all know how Irish people never jaywalk...

Prosecute jaywalkers then. the State can do with the revenue.

Cookie_Monster

ardmacha wrote: »

Prosecute jaywalkers then. the State can do with the revenue.

for what, its not a crime here

BostonB

Are you sure. If isn't they should make it one. The number of people who don't know how to cross a road is staggering.

JimsAlterEgo

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

for what, its not a crime here

if its not it should be

BluePlanet

It's not the pedestrians nor the cyclists that pose a danger.
Indeed, there is only a single fatality on our statistics regarding ped vs cyclist collisions.
The danger on our roads, and in particular our City Centre are motor vehicles.

So it follows that it is THEY who must be marshalled.

Cookie_Monster

BluePlanet wrote: »

It's not the pedestrians nor the cyclists that pose a danger.
Indeed, there is only a single fatality on our statistics regarding ped vs cyclist collisions.
The danger on our roads, and in particular our City Centre are motor vehicles.

So it follows that it is THEY who must be marshalled.

they are already very well restricted to the roads and further by speed limits and lights.

How many of the deaths have been by car hitting people on the pavement??
As already stated many times on this thread the two biggest causes of death in the CC are truck turning over cyclists and people stepping out onto the road.
The first has nothing to do with speed and the second probably will probably see a very slight reduction due to the new limits though you will probably see an increase in injuries due to pedestrian perception that its safer to walk out ontot the road due to the lower speeds

Wibbler

AlekSmart wrote: »

The key aspect of the Lord Mayors bit of puffery is her wording......"Soon" in DCC speak may not actually be this decade and "Follow" may well be two decades after that...so it`s basically academic.

It should be remembered that DCC have a long and proud history of this type of thing.

Why couldn't DCC have re-sequenced lights before introducing this new limit? It couldn't have made things worse and we would have seen the benefits immediately the limit was introduced. *

* Assuming that Green Wave can actually work in a city like Dublin.

BluePlanet

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

they are already very well restricted to the roads and further by speed limits and lights.

How many of the deaths have been by car hitting people on the pavement??

I can think of 5 off the top of my head.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

As already stated many times on this thread the two biggest causes of death in the CC are truck turning over cyclists and people stepping out onto the road.
The first has nothing to do with speed and the second probably will probably see a very slight reduction due to the new limits though you will probably see an increase in injuries due to pedestrian perception that its safer to walk out ontot the road due to the lower speeds

Yet the experience has shown that reducing speed limits in CC equals fewer deaths, and probably fewer injuries too.

BluePlanet

have a look at the images in this post:
http://www.politics.ie/2429242-post117.html

That's the heart of London.
Just imagine all poor motorists so cruelly inconvenienced. Surely the City Centre belongs to cars, no?

Fantastic visualisation of this here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C35yJShA_go

Well worth a look.
This is the sort of progressive thinking we need.