New DCC (Dublin City Centre) 30kph limit

a_ominous

When I'm in the city centre, I get around on foot. Have the city council done anything to reduce waiting times at traffic lights? Why does it take 2 changes of lights to cross College Green. Peds get frustrated and ignore the lights - running to a bus, etc.

I liked the idea of the countdown timers, but they're not very widespread.

I don't think reducing the speed limits is going to help much - a friend died after being hit by a trunk moving less than 10mph ( ~ 20kmph ). Less cars might help, but there would need to be a better public transport system. That still won't reduce fatalities to zero either.

Tarabuses

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

for what, its not a crime here

Legislation to deal with jaywalking was introduced in the last century but was never policed.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0182.html#zzsi182y1997a46

monument

Tarabuses wrote: »

Legislation to deal with jaywalking was introduced in the last century but was never policed.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0182.html#zzsi182y1997a46

Nor is the legislation which gives pedestrians the right of way at any junction without pedestrian lights

As per the rules of the road:

You must always yield to:

• pedestrians already crossing at a junction,...

And I'm not talking about major roads, but the likes of junctions in the city centre. Like at Cineworld on Parnell Street where drivers race at pedestrians already crossing the road to "teach them a lesson" or whatever.

WindSock

There was a Garda checkpoint last night on the Harcourt side of the Green. I thought it was 30k there? Unless it wasn't a speed check they were doing.

I also saw someone pulled over on the Quays, where I thought it was 50k still.

JimsAlterEgo

WindSock wrote: »

There was a Garda checkpoint last night on the Harcourt side of the Green. I thought it was 30k there? Unless it wasn't a speed check they were doing.

I also saw someone pulled over on the Quays, where I thought it was 50k still.

only to/from 1/2 way down

BostonB

According to the map, S and SE of the green is 50kph. Only turns 30kph when you go down Dawson Street and through the lights to Stephen Green Taxi rank.

Arran Quay to Heuston isn't 30kph either. From Tara St eastwards towards the docklands isn't in the zone either.

Maldini2706

ardmacha wrote: »

Prosecute jaywalkers then. the State can do with the revenue.

I agree, they should be prosecuted, it's way harder to enforce though. You know if they did we'd have a massive thread on here giving out about it, saying it's just a money spinner and people saying "Who are the council to tell me I can't walk out in front of a car?" and "This discourages people from walking around the city centre, imagine the effect it'll have on businesses!"

gurramok

BluePlanet wrote: »

I can think of 5 off the top of my head.

Yet the experience has shown that reducing speed limits in CC equals fewer deaths, and probably fewer injuries too.

Those 5 were killed by a stationary bus that mounted the footpath on the quays in the affected area in 2004. Another was killed by a bus in a 30kmph zone on O'Connell st in 2005.
Now, how many exactly were killed by speeding cars in the affected area?

BostonB

There was a cyclist killed at the half penny bridge. Don't know reason.

markpb

Maldini2706 wrote: »

I agree, they should be prosecuted, it's way harder to enforce though. You know if they did we'd have a massive thread on here giving out about it, saying it's just a money spinner and people saying "Who are the council to tell me I can't walk out in front of a car?" and "This discourages people from walking around the city centre, imagine the effect it'll have on businesses!"

You know the rules of jaywalking only apply when there's a pedestrian traffic light within 50 feet? If there's no light or crossing, the pedestrian is free to cross anywhere they like so long as they "take all reasonable precautions to avoid causing danger or inconvenience to traffic and other pedestrians" (RTA1964) and a car must "yield right of way to a pedestrian on the pedestrian crossing" (RTA1979).

Drivers in Ireland almost never yield to pedestrians wishing to cross at (what few we have) zebra crossings or where no pedestrian crossing is provided. And you wonder why pedestrians have to run across the road? City councils in Ireland are statistically the worst in Europe for providing pedestrian facilities, Dublin scored worst in terms of pedestrian waiting times at lights and DCC have admitted their policy of making pedestrians wait in order to minimise delays to cars.

BluePlanet

Are there any Pedestrian-rights groups in Ireland?
I doubt it.
There should be though, since there are vastly more peds than motorists in the city centre.

Of course, we are all pedestrians, just some of us drive or cycle to get there first.
I suppose then that some people would have their pedestrian rights secondary to their primary transport means.
That's why you get motorists calling for more barricades to corral pedestrians in to designated crossing points. Surely they've walked around the city before right?

J_Dublin15

To be honest as a Pedestrian and a bus user this new change has made things worse for me, in the evenings from Ballsbridge to City centre at times it can now take much longer to get in thanks to the increase in jaywalking that slower moving cars has brought.

Patser

The limit is dead!

Or as good as, depending on how much of a bigger hole the council can dig itself into. Listening to Newstalk today, and glancing at the papers and the blame game has already started.

First off Eamonn Gilmore was being interviewed on the Breakfast show on Newstalk. Ivan Yates, whos been raging about the new limit along the Quays all week, slipped in a question about the limit, and without any real pause Gilmore said it was impractical and with limited safety appilication due to having to watch the clock more.

In the meantime the Herald Metro free paper's frontpage was dominated by a FG Council member who'd voted against the new limits (only 1 of the 3 that did, vs 52 for) was calling the other councillors 'Muppets' who followed the leader without thinking, and that the Green Wave was a 'Red Herring'. The Green Wave was never planned for and seems to have only popped up when Andrew Montague brought it up on Matt Cooper last week, that's why it is now only in the 'planning phase', they're trying to get out of the hole they were dropped into.

And then finally on the Lunchtime show with Eamonn Keane poor old Aodhan O Riordain, a Labour Councillor, was on the show being grilled on the council's position now, and especially his own position and that of Andrew Montague - also Labour, following on from Eamonn Gilmore's statements. It was evident that the new limits are going to be reviewed or abondoned with his statements like 'Good idea at the time', 'Following Govt. orders' and mentioning the unprecedented amount of e-mails he's received. He also mentioned that the matter is up for review following and emergency motion for the next council meeting.

So before I get accused of gloating, can I genuinely say the 30kmh limit is not a bad idea in the whole, IMO it's just innappropriate on main roads like the Quays. So I genuinely hope that in any 'review' of the scheme they do not throw the baby out with the dishwater and remove the extended limits from areas like Dublin castle or around the Rotunda, or worse still release a confusing message that may suggest that O'Connell St and the original areas are now somehow also cancelled. I worry about this because the obvious political way out of this is to announce - A postponement of the scheme until a review follows and then quietly forget about it - which could be interpreted any way you like.

If the limits are cancelled along the Quays, how exactly do you figure the motorists who got points during the crackdown Monday morning will feel?

edit: Regards source, all Newstalk shows will be available on podcast later.

antoinolachtnai

I think the lesson here is that major initiatives like this need to be planned out in more detail and the implications considered in detail.

I think this was a great plan in principle. Calmer streets with fewer traffic lights should have benefited everybody. The problem was that a lot of the details that would have delivered a benefit were not planned out in tandem.

There is also the reality that a well-designed, well-functioning public transport system is required to really complete the picture. Work has not even begun on improving the bus services.

Cookie_Monster

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I think this was a great plan in principle. Calmer streets with fewer traffic lights should have benefited everybody.

There was no mention of removing traffic lights anywhere

KC61

I have to say that I think that the mistake made here was extending the limit west of Capel Street bridge. There is not sufficient pedestrian footfall west of that point to justify it.

I think that there is some justification in having a 30kph limit between Capel Street bridge and the Matt Talbot Bridge along the quays, but not beyond.

antoinolachtnai

Well, the theory was there was going to be a 'green wave' so less delays from traffic lights. If you have slower speeds, there is less hazard to pedestrians and less need for signalized crossings. You could turn the pedestrian signals to flashing yellow during off-peak hours. That would easily give drivers back the time they lost from the lower speeds.

KevR

Patser wrote: »

can I genuinely say the 30kmh limit is not a bad idea in the whole, IMO it's just innappropriate on main roads like the Quays.

Agree.

There is talk here in Galway of a 30kmh limit across the City Centre from the Moneenageisha junction to Salthill!!! They say important arteries in and out of the city won't be included but it is highly ridiculous to even think about covering such a wide area with such a low limit. Certainly Eyre Square and some other streets (carefully selected!) in town could do with a 30kmh limit. But just putting a blanket reduced limit in place, as has been mooted, is crazy.

Here's an idea, but why can't members of the public get in touch with the City Council and/or Gardai if they feel a certain street has cars travelling too fast. The Gardai can then give that street extra attention when enforcing the existing limit and the Council can carefully decide whether a lower limit is appropriate on that street. If so, they can change the limit and the Gardai ensure that the new limit is adhered to.
Or am I speaking too much common sense entirely?

gurramok

KC61 wrote: »

I have to say that I think that the mistake made here was extending the limit west of Capel Street bridge. There is not sufficient pedestrian footfall west of that point to justify it.

I think that there is some justification in having a 30kph limit between Capel Street bridge and the Matt Talbot Bridge along the quays, but not beyond.

Nail on head there with the locations. I do slow down to a crawl anywhere where there are high numbers of pedestrians, its a natural reaction.

Besides that, when I was in town yesterday observing on the quays around O'Connell Bridge, perhaps 75% of the drivers including a DCC van were going faster than 30kmph. Unless there was a Garda on every corner with a hairdryer, the new limit was unenforceable.

jammygit

shotamouse wrote: »

Look, the reason why DCC are doing this is because 30km/h speed limits in crowded urban areas are proven to save lives. If you are more worried about a few minutes being added to your journey then you really need to get a sense of perspective.

If DCC is serious about safety they should alter the street architecture (paving, layout, signage etc.) before introducing these kinds of measures. The truth is that their introduction followed a silent public consultation process that was published in August, which is a 'flat' month for media access. The public were thus effectively denied the right to comment or suggest alternatives. This measure should be postponed until all stakeholders have had an effective input. It does not escape my attention that they come in ahead of summer's rollout of privatised speed cameras.

And here's another perspective: I depend on my licence for a living. If I am to be criminalised due to a badly thought-out measure that does not take my viewpoint into account I run the real risk of losing my livelihood, house and all. Is this a proportionate response to a minor infringement of a bad law? BTW I have a clean licence, no points, no agenda, and I am a careful driver and sometime cyclist.

KevR

jammygit wrote: »

It does not escape my attention that they come in ahead of summer's rollout of privatised speed cameras.

It hasn't escaped my attention that there were claims that one reason for the lower limits was to discourage cars from the City Centre and encourage them to use the orbital routes around Dublin. Then yesterday there is an announcement that the price of the Westlink and Eastlink tolls will increase from July.

:rolleyes:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/0205/1224263814418.html?via=mr

markpb

KevR wrote: »

It hasn't escaped my attention that there were claims that one reason for the lower limits was to discourage cars from the City Centre and encourage them to use the orbital routes around Dublin. Then yesterday there is an announcement that the price of the Westlink and Eastlink tolls will increase from July.

Except that the orbital routes they're talking about (Inner & Outer) are not tolled and most are not included in the new 30kph zone. (Map).

seamus

It's also worth noting that the revenue from speed cameras and the west link do not go anywhere near Dublin city council coffers, so this speed limit is not financially motivated by them because they're not set to make money out of it.

Whether tolls will actually increase is up for debate - the current price is technically VAT-inclusive (i.e. it was VAT-inclusive, then the government took the toll bridge and didn't change the price, creaming off the top), but I wouldn't be surprised if they ignore this and increase them anyway.

KevR

markpb wrote: »

Except that the orbital routes they're talking about (Inner & Outer) are not tolled and most are not included in the new 30kph zone. (Map).

From my experience, those inner and outer orbitals are already far too congested. Can they really take anymore traffic?

PT has an expensive toll, the M50 toll is due to increase, the more central orbital routes are overly congested, public transport is not up to scratch and yet they don't want anyone driving anywhere near the City Centre.

The defnition for "Disjointed" in the dictionary should be changed to "transport in Dublin".

TrumpetStrumpet

i just had to register to send this on!!!! THIS IS SO SO SO funny!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWCLlMzX-dA

the bit about the skates has me crying in pain!!!!!

HydeRoad

Victor wrote: »

Already happens. Personally, I think the law should be applied to all. There is a problem with a lack of enforcement. however the worst red light offenders are motorists.

Ah Victor, Victor, I have to pull you up on that one! I don't know how many cars break red lights somewhere in the central city area, maybe a couple an hour, depending how far out you consider. I'm not talking about running yellows, I mean blatant red running. But cyclists flood through red lights en masse every minute of the day. It must be something in the region of a hundred to one minimum!

For good or ill, pedestrians are aware of road vehicles driving close by, particularly at speed, and particularly the larger the vehicle. Whether or not they wander out regardless is another thing. But in my own opinion, speeding cyclists are far more dangerous to pedestrians, given that a pedestrian hit by a speeding cyclist is just as liable to end up in a hospital, but particularly given that cyclists are totally unpredictable with regard to speed, direction, traffic lights, footpaths, roads, cycle lanes, etc. They can come from anywhere, on path or street, and steal up swiftly and silently, without any warning whatsoever. Bells are a distant memory.

In my own experience, cyclists are by far the most aggressive road user. They seem perpetually in a raging hurry, determined to mow down anything that doesn't mow them down first. Perhaps it's a reaction to being the most vulnerable thing on the road, I don't know. But for every cyclist that rolls to a stop at a red light, three more will storm through at lightning speed, never looking to right or left for either pedestrians or larger vehicles.

I am in two minds about the speed limit. I see it as just another symptom of the nanny state, crucifying everyone regardless, rather than targetting specific areas of danger or lawlessness. However I would like to see a pedestrian friendly zone between the Temple Bar, College Green and O'Connell Bridge areas, with road engineering designed for the calming of the environment, prioritising of pedestrians, and the proper facilitation of a very definitely specified throughput of buses (not the bus free for all we see at present, where 80% of the buses are practically empty, and getting in each other's way). The thing is it needs to be properly engineered, with a view to the environment, a hundred miles away from the cluttered mess that is O'Connell Street. Painting white lines everywhere is a complete abdication of responsibility, only marginally less offensive than the erection of a forest of shiny poles everywhere, to the point that you cannot see the city for the poles...

gurramok

I feel like going out there and videoing the red light breaking cyclists where its done en masse, i bet they won't be hard to find either as I too see it every day especially at pedestrian crossings!

Here's what this bloke(cyclist) wrote about the limit.
http://www.herald.ie/national-news/city-news/how-i-zoomed-by-traffic-at-40kph--legally--on-my-bike-2044020.html

Starting my journey at Tara Street I headed west along the Liffey towards Wood Quay where the snap happy Garda Gasto van had been deployed.

Along the way I managed to keep tyre to tyre with a delivery van, overtook a couple of taxis and easily stayed ahead of a Dublin Bus.

Being far from a fitness freak or a frequent cyclist, I wasn't expecting to set the speedometer racing but it turns out that 30kph is easily achievable with a bit of hustle.

The born-again cyclist in me was more than enthused by the joy of seeing bemused taxi drivers glaring out of their windows at my enviable pace.

Mucco

Cyclists jumping red lights has very little to do with the new speed limit - cyclists don't kill 350 people per annum.

I'd say there are several reasons for this limit, apart from reducing injuries and fatalities. The most important for me, is the transformation of the city centre into a pedestrian friendly enviroment.
Reduction in traffic speeds and also diverting traffic away from the city make walking around town so much more pleasant. Recently I've seen a transfer of ownership of the city centre from motor vehicles to pedestrians. I think this will encourage people to linger in the city centre, rather than driving business away.

In any case, the average speed during the morning rush hour is 12.4kph, (DTO 2007) so it's not the speed limit that slows traffic down.

KevR

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0208/dublin.html

RTE News wrote:

Anger grows at Dublin city speed limit

Monday, 8 February 2010 22:34

A motion to drop the 30km/ph speed limit in Dublin city centre was lodged today amid growing anger among motorists at the restriction.
The motion, which has cross-party support, will be debated at the next full meeting of Dublin City Council on 1 March.
Labour party leader Eamon Gilmore criticised the new limit even though it was brought by his own party councillors.
Advertisement

Labour city councillors are meeting this evening and today some indicated that they would be willing to support some relaxation of the limit, particularly on the quays.
This would require a new by-law and another period of public consultation in a process that could take some months.
But the motion lodged today by Fine Gael councillor Bill Tormey would, if successful, mean the limit would be quickly scrapped.
The motion is supported by 11 other councillors, including Sinn Féin and a number of Independents.
Dubiln city Lord Mayor and Labour party member Emer Costelloe said there is a lot of misinformation about the limit, with many people wrongly believing it covers the whole city centre.
She said the 30km/ph limit was in place in a number of city streets without any difficulty and had been extended to cover an area used by large numbers of pedestrians.
Major arterial routes such as Gardiner Street on the north side and most of St Stephen's Green on the south side are not affected.

KevR

Mucco wrote: »

cyclists don't kill 350 people per annum.

I really don't know where to begin with this...

279 is the 2008 figure of road deaths. A huge percent of this figure wouldn't have involved pedestrians or cyclists. 'Kill'?

congo_90

who gives a toss? We're making more noise over this than say nama but that's for another days discussion.
It doesn't matter if the road was 80 and now 50 we'd still complain. Its frustrating and all the high horses who have never owned a car or driven one won't understand.
For those quoting average speeds...My car gives me an average of 20 when in fact I spend most of my day travelling much much higher.

Next point,
Safey aspect.
If i hit someone at 30 km/h they're gonna be injured. If i hit someone at 50 they still have a chance at walking away. Having said that I don't think I've ever achieved 50 for long in town.

I don't care what the safety patrol on here say. The speed limit was put on ridiculous roads. Places I'd agree on is places where there is a high concentration off pedestrians. This is College green, Dame street, Around by nassau st. D'olier street and O'connell street.

I believe anything more is over kill.

Rovi

Pat Kenny (RTE Radio 1) just announced that he will be talking today to "the councillor responsible for the 30kph limit" who has "done a u-turn"; whatever that means.

General Zod

as a cyclist, I have to say I love the change, the quays feel a hell of a lot safer in rush hour.

It's roughly 2KM of your daily journey. slow down a little.

BostonB

Almost everywhere else it has no effect, as the traffic doesn't move that fast anyway. Only place it does move faster is the quays. Especially as you move aware from the center. As a cyclist, the worst part for me its the bit down towards and at Guinness and thats still a 50kph. Though usually its more like 70~80kph along there.