New DCC (Dublin City Centre) 30kph limit

thebman

monument wrote: »

IS that English? What does "not moving speed" mean to you?

As already posted above: The part of the quays cover is in 1.4km, and even 1.5km at 30km/h is travelled in 3mins.

Great but its actually hard for many cars to do 30KPH. Most will be revving much higher and burning more fuel as a result. That is why I said not moving speed. To bring across that many cars will find it difficult to do this speed without revving high in a low gear.

Worse for the environment (both air quality and noise pollution) and the cyclists health that this is supposed to be for. Its really designed to try to stop people driving in the city centre which isn't really possible for everyone as not everyone can park outside of the zone as there won't be enough spaces for one thing.

I imagine it will also lead to poor drivers conking their cars and more small accidents as a result. Its just not very well thought out as anyone that is a crap driver will most likely just ignore it anyway and it won't be properly enforced just like all our rules.

Basically the whole problem is the current rules aren't enforced. Making rules because people won't obey the existing rules is a stupid idea.

Stark

It's perfectly possible to drive in 30km/hr without over-revving the engine. And having increased fuel consumption for 3 minutes of driving isn't going to make much of a difference.

thebman

Stark wrote: »

It's perfectly possible to drive in 30km/hr without over-revving the engine. And having increased fuel consumption for 3 minutes of driving isn't going to make much of a difference.

It depends on the car. Not all cars are the same.

When your talking about one car, the pollution increase will look small I'm sure.

monument

If there was an actual problem with cars driving at 30km/h the AA -- who are against the new limit -- would be shouting from the roof tops about it.

Then again the AA is not being challenged about their other nonsense on safety which contradicts what is said by health experts back by research.

ardmacha

This speed limit makes sense in the many small streets in the city centre. However the Quays have a river on one side. In general there is nothing for pedestrians to cross to other than at junctions with bridges, all of which have signalised crossings.

The other point is that this does not just apply to motorists. Pretty much all buses in Dublin pass through this area and public transport is undermined by this measure more than private travel. This sort of measure might we useful in London or Paris where people can traverse the area using underground railways, but if your public transport runs on the surface then it is comprised.

Guell72

thebman wrote: »

It depends on the car. Not all cars are the same.

When your talking about one car, the pollution increase will look small I'm sure.

More than 1 minute - multiplied by many thousands each day.
I see what they are doing.
Carbon tax - Make people waste more fuel - More tax take.

DBCyc

thebman wrote: »

Great but its actually hard for many cars to do 30KPH. Most will be revving much higher and burning more fuel as a result. That is why I said not moving speed. To bring across that many cars will find it difficult to do this speed without revving high in a low gear.

I drove up the north quays this evening and everyone was cruising along nicely at or around 30kph. I didn't notice any cars revving really high and nobody had any difficulty driving. It was all very easy and relaxed.

Surely if you are revving high in a low gear, you change gear. I can't see how this will really have any real (as opposed to perceived) inconvenience to drivers in the city.

Stark

ardmacha wrote: »

This speed limit makes sense in the many small streets in the city centre. However the Quays have a river on one side. In general there is nothing for pedestrians to cross to other than at junctions with bridges, all of which have signalised crossings.

In order to get from where you are on the North quays to where you want to go on the South quays, you have to cross two sets of signalised crossings. And the green times aren't exactly in pedestrians' favour. And then there's the junctions where there's no green man to get straight across, so a pedestrian has to make 3 separate crossings.

ardmacha

In order to get from where you are on the North quays to where you want to go on the South quays, you have to cross two sets of signalised crossings

Then synchronise the crossings so that a person crossing on one quay at green and walking across the bridge will get a green on the other side.

Stark

seamus wrote: »

The attached is the rough area of the limit, according to that article.

Within these roads, it's rare that you'll get up past 30kph at the following times:

8am - 2pm, Mon - Fri
4pm - 7pm, Mon - Fri
12pm - 4pm, Sat & Sun
8pm - 10pm, Fri & Sat
12am - 3am, Sat & Sun

Which basically means that for most people, a 30kph limit will make little difference.

The actual area is even smaller than the area you highlighted. I drive from northside to southside through the city centre quite a bit, taking in several different routes depending on who I have to pick up (northside/southside) and none of my routes are affected by the speed limit reduction. The only time I'd ever hit the 30km/hr limit is the odd time I drive to Cineworld/Parnell street area and for those occasions, it will actually make things easier as the only 30km/hr street is the one I have to look for car parking spaces on.

Maldini2706

ardmacha wrote: »

This speed limit makes sense in the many small streets in the city centre. However the Quays have a river on one side. In general there is nothing for pedestrians to cross to other than at junctions with bridges, all of which have signalised crossings.

...and we all know how Irish people never jaywalk...

To be honest I can't remember a time I've driven down the quays and someone HASN'T stepped out in front of a car. The crossings at Aston Quay and the Haypenny are notorious for it.

I really don't understand the controversy over this, is it really that much of an inconvenience?

As far as can tell the pros and cons are:

Pros
- It has worked in other countries without any major problems
- It has led to a massive reduction in fatalities and serious injuries in other cities where it's been implemented
- It encourages people to cycle into the city centre and so takes cars off the road

Cons
- It adds a miniscule amount of time to people's journey times
- People have to concentrate while driving.

ardmacha

.and we all know how Irish people never jaywalk...

Prosecute jaywalkers then. the State can do with the revenue.

Cookie_Monster

ardmacha wrote: »

Prosecute jaywalkers then. the State can do with the revenue.

for what, its not a crime here

BostonB

Are you sure. If isn't they should make it one. The number of people who don't know how to cross a road is staggering.

JimsAlterEgo

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

for what, its not a crime here

if its not it should be

BluePlanet

It's not the pedestrians nor the cyclists that pose a danger.
Indeed, there is only a single fatality on our statistics regarding ped vs cyclist collisions.
The danger on our roads, and in particular our City Centre are motor vehicles.

So it follows that it is THEY who must be marshalled.

Cookie_Monster

BluePlanet wrote: »

It's not the pedestrians nor the cyclists that pose a danger.
Indeed, there is only a single fatality on our statistics regarding ped vs cyclist collisions.
The danger on our roads, and in particular our City Centre are motor vehicles.

So it follows that it is THEY who must be marshalled.

they are already very well restricted to the roads and further by speed limits and lights.

How many of the deaths have been by car hitting people on the pavement??
As already stated many times on this thread the two biggest causes of death in the CC are truck turning over cyclists and people stepping out onto the road.
The first has nothing to do with speed and the second probably will probably see a very slight reduction due to the new limits though you will probably see an increase in injuries due to pedestrian perception that its safer to walk out ontot the road due to the lower speeds

Wibbler

AlekSmart wrote: »

The key aspect of the Lord Mayors bit of puffery is her wording......"Soon" in DCC speak may not actually be this decade and "Follow" may well be two decades after that...so it`s basically academic.

It should be remembered that DCC have a long and proud history of this type of thing.

Why couldn't DCC have re-sequenced lights before introducing this new limit? It couldn't have made things worse and we would have seen the benefits immediately the limit was introduced. *

* Assuming that Green Wave can actually work in a city like Dublin.

BluePlanet

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

they are already very well restricted to the roads and further by speed limits and lights.

How many of the deaths have been by car hitting people on the pavement??

I can think of 5 off the top of my head.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

As already stated many times on this thread the two biggest causes of death in the CC are truck turning over cyclists and people stepping out onto the road.
The first has nothing to do with speed and the second probably will probably see a very slight reduction due to the new limits though you will probably see an increase in injuries due to pedestrian perception that its safer to walk out ontot the road due to the lower speeds

Yet the experience has shown that reducing speed limits in CC equals fewer deaths, and probably fewer injuries too.

BluePlanet

have a look at the images in this post:
http://www.politics.ie/2429242-post117.html

That's the heart of London.
Just imagine all poor motorists so cruelly inconvenienced. Surely the City Centre belongs to cars, no?

Fantastic visualisation of this here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C35yJShA_go

Well worth a look.
This is the sort of progressive thinking we need.

a_ominous

When I'm in the city centre, I get around on foot. Have the city council done anything to reduce waiting times at traffic lights? Why does it take 2 changes of lights to cross College Green. Peds get frustrated and ignore the lights - running to a bus, etc.

I liked the idea of the countdown timers, but they're not very widespread.

I don't think reducing the speed limits is going to help much - a friend died after being hit by a trunk moving less than 10mph ( ~ 20kmph ). Less cars might help, but there would need to be a better public transport system. That still won't reduce fatalities to zero either.

Tarabuses

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

for what, its not a crime here

Legislation to deal with jaywalking was introduced in the last century but was never policed.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0182.html#zzsi182y1997a46

monument

Tarabuses wrote: »

Legislation to deal with jaywalking was introduced in the last century but was never policed.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0182.html#zzsi182y1997a46

Nor is the legislation which gives pedestrians the right of way at any junction without pedestrian lights

As per the rules of the road:

You must always yield to:

• pedestrians already crossing at a junction,...

And I'm not talking about major roads, but the likes of junctions in the city centre. Like at Cineworld on Parnell Street where drivers race at pedestrians already crossing the road to "teach them a lesson" or whatever.

WindSock

There was a Garda checkpoint last night on the Harcourt side of the Green. I thought it was 30k there? Unless it wasn't a speed check they were doing.

I also saw someone pulled over on the Quays, where I thought it was 50k still.

JimsAlterEgo

WindSock wrote: »

There was a Garda checkpoint last night on the Harcourt side of the Green. I thought it was 30k there? Unless it wasn't a speed check they were doing.

I also saw someone pulled over on the Quays, where I thought it was 50k still.

only to/from 1/2 way down

BostonB

According to the map, S and SE of the green is 50kph. Only turns 30kph when you go down Dawson Street and through the lights to Stephen Green Taxi rank.

Arran Quay to Heuston isn't 30kph either. From Tara St eastwards towards the docklands isn't in the zone either.

Maldini2706

ardmacha wrote: »

Prosecute jaywalkers then. the State can do with the revenue.

I agree, they should be prosecuted, it's way harder to enforce though. You know if they did we'd have a massive thread on here giving out about it, saying it's just a money spinner and people saying "Who are the council to tell me I can't walk out in front of a car?" and "This discourages people from walking around the city centre, imagine the effect it'll have on businesses!"

gurramok

BluePlanet wrote: »

I can think of 5 off the top of my head.

Yet the experience has shown that reducing speed limits in CC equals fewer deaths, and probably fewer injuries too.

Those 5 were killed by a stationary bus that mounted the footpath on the quays in the affected area in 2004. Another was killed by a bus in a 30kmph zone on O'Connell st in 2005.
Now, how many exactly were killed by speeding cars in the affected area?

BostonB

There was a cyclist killed at the half penny bridge. Don't know reason.

markpb

Maldini2706 wrote: »

I agree, they should be prosecuted, it's way harder to enforce though. You know if they did we'd have a massive thread on here giving out about it, saying it's just a money spinner and people saying "Who are the council to tell me I can't walk out in front of a car?" and "This discourages people from walking around the city centre, imagine the effect it'll have on businesses!"

You know the rules of jaywalking only apply when there's a pedestrian traffic light within 50 feet? If there's no light or crossing, the pedestrian is free to cross anywhere they like so long as they "take all reasonable precautions to avoid causing danger or inconvenience to traffic and other pedestrians" (RTA1964) and a car must "yield right of way to a pedestrian on the pedestrian crossing" (RTA1979).

Drivers in Ireland almost never yield to pedestrians wishing to cross at (what few we have) zebra crossings or where no pedestrian crossing is provided. And you wonder why pedestrians have to run across the road? City councils in Ireland are statistically the worst in Europe for providing pedestrian facilities, Dublin scored worst in terms of pedestrian waiting times at lights and DCC have admitted their policy of making pedestrians wait in order to minimise delays to cars.