Introduction of a Public service 'scrappage'scheme and creating jobs for our young .

Joe1919

Introduction of a Public service 'scrappage'scheme and creating jobs for our young people.

I was just looking at the teachers pay scales.
These vary from 30,904 to 59,359. There are also other allowances.
http://www.tui.ie/Salary_Scales/Default.286.html

I presume other public service jobs have similar stretched out pay scales.(but perhaps not as wide).

I would accept that many of our public servants are perhaps burnt out at this stage and lack vigour and perhaps this is behind much of their discontent, excessive sick-leave, lack of enthusiasm etc.
For example, when my father was in hospital, I notice some of the nurses were tired and lacked enthusiasm.

So what I propose is that some vigour be brought back into the public service by encouraging those public servants who lack vigour (and are say, unable to answer phones etc.) to retire.

These public servants could be allowed cash in on their pension plus allowed the difference between the minimum of their wage scale and their present rate. (This could be 22,000 for a teacher with only 14 years service & some kind of 'averaging may be necessary to cover lower grades in the public service.)

Those who would replce them would come in on the minimum of the pay scale.

In this way, everyone could be a winner.
" Worn out civil servants could retire and let younger people take over.
" There would be jobs for our school leavers.
" Less un-employment payments.
" Self-financing.
" Better service to the public.
" Those who retire would be doing the right thing by not 'hogging' their jobs.

Any thoughts. Could it work?

MrsNY

You are forgetting about the Embargo on recruitment.....

Sleepy

I think it's fair to say that the OP isn't forgetting about the embargo, just ignoring it for the purpose of throwing out a suggestion. To be honest, the current embargo is the union's fault. If the unions weren't guaranteed to block any attempts at redundancies there'd be no need for a blanket ban on hiring to promote 'natural shrinkage'. This, in effect, has forced the government to either take on the unions properly or use a hammer in the place of the required scalpel. Since our government are too gutless to actually just dismiss the unions and block strke action, they've gone the politically easier route.

There's merit to the suggestion Joe, however, I'd imagine those that would avail of such a scheme would, as usual, be the competent workers who could find employment outside of the sector rather than the dead wood who're all happy to do their crosswords until retirement.

Joe1919

MrsNY wrote: »

You are forgetting about the Embargo on recruitment.....

Yes, I see your point but this could be overcome. The intention of the embargo is to get overall levels down. However, if we could persuade more people to retire than would normally retire, this problem could be overcome. It is these extra retirements that could be replaced.

i.e. A fairly senior public servant on a high pay scale retires. e.g. A teacher on 50,000. He/she is replaced (only if it is necessary to replace).

Alternatively, a ratio type system could be introduced.e.g. Allow the filling of 50% of vacancies if the retirement rate could be doubled.

(I accept much fine tuning may be necessary with my proposal).

Riskymove

basically the first part of your idea is being implemented; the ISER scheme is resulting in many public servants retiring

however, as pointed out, very few being recruited/promoted to replace those who leave

Joe1919

Sleepy wrote: »

There's merit to the suggestion Joe, however, I'd imagine those that would avail of such a scheme would, as usual, be the competent workers who could find employment outside of the sector rather than the dead wood who're all happy to do their crosswords until retirement.

I see your point. For the scheme to work, we need more openness and accountability among the professions. (Unfortunately we seem to have a tradition of covering up for dysfunctional people. We see the trouble this got the church into)
The scheme would have to be adjusted so as it is not too attractive for public servants to leave.
The public service would have to be more open and truthful and show up this 'deadwood'. This deadwood would have to be persuaded to leave.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Joe1919

Riskymove wrote: »

basically the first part of your idea is being implemented; the ISER scheme is resulting in many public servants retiring

however, as pointed out, very few being recruited/promoted to replace those who leave

The present scheme is probably voluntary and costly. The problem may be that the employees has all the control over whether they leave or not and hence the managment does not reap much benefit in terms of retiring inefficent staff.
What I am suggesting is a cheaper scheme that would be more under the control of the managments.

Joe1919

donegalfella wrote: »

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I often wondered why more hospitals could not be privitised. Is a hospital really that much different from an airline?

But anyhow, what I am saying does not prevent the reduction of areas of the public service. But I am presuming that the government may want to keep some areas under direct control.

ei.sdraob

Introduction of a Public service 'scrappage' scheme and creating jobs for our young

brilliant rofl funniest thing i heard all day

good post this is gonna be fun to read

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

ardmacha

Public servants lack enthusiasm because they have chosen to privilege safe, secure, pensionable employment over doing something more entrepreneurial, dynamic, and vital with their lives.

Why is treating the ill or educating the young not a vital activity or why should people be disparaged for wanting to do these things? Why should educating a class of 6 year old or working in a research lab in a university not regarded as dynamic?

Riskymove

ardmacha wrote: »

Why is treating the ill or educating the young not a vital activity or why should people be disparaged for wanting to do these things? Why should educating a class of 6 year old or working in a research lab in a university not regarded as dynamic?

we all know that the basic tactic is as follows:

want to bash the public sector? portray them all as useless highly paid desk jockeys taking the food from your child's mouth


want to defend public sector? talk about valiant firefighters and sturdy nurses doing the vital jobs we dont want to do


the truth, as always, is in between

its just sad that we cant all meet in that middle and discuss the solutions rationally

Count Dooku

A lot of people are joining public services in order to be in safe place, when they will be old. I can imagine how strong resistance could be in case if it will be implemented

Joe1919 wrote: »

I was just looking at the teachers pay scales.
These vary from 30,904 to 59,359. There are also other allowances.
http://www.tui.ie/Salary_Scales/Default.286.html

IMHO teachers are rare exception, when public servants really deserve their salaries, because they are working for future

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

ZYX

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

No, the problem is private hospitals do well because they cherry pick the best patients. So if for example you are relatively young and healthy and need your gall bladder removed then, no problem go to private hospital. If you are old with multiple medical problems and are a surgical risk you may not be done in private hospital. They will transfer you to public hospital. If you have chronic serious condition like haemophilia or cystic fibrosis then again public hospital is for you. This is also the reason private hospitals don't offer 24 hour proper A&E depts. On top of all this is the huge rates health insurance companies pay private hospitals. This is very likely to be dramatically reduced in next few years. You will then see private hospitals that are not co-located closing down.

Welease

Joe1919 wrote: »

In this way, everyone could be a winner.
" Worn out civil servants could retire and let younger people take over.
" There would be jobs for our school leavers.
" Less un-employment payments.
" Self-financing.
" Better service to the public.
" Those who retire would be doing the right thing by not 'hogging' their jobs.

Any thoughts. Could it work?

I'm not sure you have really done the calculations correctly.. I don't think they country could afford this..

Having less unemployment payments by virtue of paying people more to retire increases the cost to the country.
Is it really self financing? Instead of paying a single persons salary, the government will now pay a lower salary + costs + benefit contributions etc PLUS the retired personal wage bonus + pension etc.

You can't make sweeping statements like "better public service" without any detail on what exact changes and impacts would result.
People look at the extremes and think wow this saves 20K+ per swap.. but the impact is you are replacing a very senior trained and experienced teacher with a relative novice right out of school.. That will never guarantee a more effeicient service.

etc etc etc.

In many areas we don't need a 1:1 swap.. we need to rationalise the amount of people.

It's not a bad idea, but it think there are potentially easier more cost effective solutions available..
Meritocracy for example... Pay people based on their contribution to the department they work in.. If you are going to do sod all, then your renumeration will reflect that (up to and including termination), if you work hard and provide good service then you are treated and recompensed as an asset to the company (country).

Joe1919

Riskymove wrote: »

its just sad that we cant all meet in that middle and discuss the solutions rationally

I agree with you here.
It seem to me a shame that some cost effective comprimise cant be worked out.
I feel particularly sad for the present generation of school leavers who have qualificitions but few jobs.

magicEye

The way I see it, the old lazy civil servant is in a win-win situation either way.

He/She can either have a job for life (even if she does nothing all day) or retire before having enough time, how can some people be that lucky, I really don't know.....

BroomBurner

First off, the term "scrappage" when relating to human beings, is very offensive. So kudos for the sly dig there.

Secondly, who is to say a new group of school-leavers are going to be any good? The last stereotype I heard about students was how lazy and work-shy they were, and fond of daytime tv Yeah, you'll get a really good quality public sector by doing that.

In fact, your idea is so good, maybe you should sell the concept to some of the larger private sector companies out there!

RGS

donegalfella wrote: »

When it comes down to it, a hospital is a service like any other. However, people of a socialist mentality will campaign vigorously for public hospitals on the basis that they are "entitled" to free medical care. People rarely claim that they are "entitled" to free air travel, and so governments experience less political pressure to maintain state-owned airlines.

Private hospitals dont care about the old, the handicapped, the accident victims
Private hospitals only care about the bottom line--profit.
Patients who develop serious post minor op problems in private hospitals are rapidly transferred to public hospitals to be provided with top class surgical and nursing care.
Where would all our consultants learn their craft without the major public teaching hospitals providing the training and critical mass required for consultants to progress.

Cherry picking private hospitals are not the answer.

jumpin_macflash

this thread is so narrow minded and offensive like so many threads popping atm. and its very obvious that those who want to cull the public service workers for daring to try and keep their wages have met very few nurses or teachers, because the majority are like the majority of the private sector, very hard working and conscientious.

next time a nurse cleans out your bed pan tell shes paid too much and see what reaction you get.

Kristopherus

jumpin_macflash wrote: »

this thread is so narrow minded and offensive like so many threads popping atm. and its very obvious that those who want to cull the public service workers for daring to try and keep their wages have met very few nurses or teachers, because the majority are like the majority of the private sector, very hard working and conscientious.

next time a nurse cleans out your bed pan tell shes paid too much and see what reaction you get.

Well said. Best contribution by far. Maybe that patient should be Donegalfella:rolleyes:

gurramok

jumpin_macflash wrote: »

this thread is so narrow minded and offensive like so many threads popping atm. and its very obvious that those who want to cull the public service workers for daring to try and keep their wages have met very few nurses or teachers, because the majority are like the majority of the private sector, very hard working and conscientious.

next time a nurse cleans out your bed pan tell shes paid too much and see what reaction you get.

Yeh, protect their overpaid wages at the expense of the general public and NEW entrants to the public service.

An average teacher salary of 60k a year does not deserve sympathy to keep those wages at the expense of everyone that suffers from their 'strike/work to rule' action.

Kristopherus

gurramok wrote: »

Yeh, protect their overpaid wages at the expense of the general public and NEW entrants to the public service.

An average teacher salary of 60k a year does not deserve sympathy to keep those wages at the expense of everyone that suffers from their 'strike/work to rule' action.

Very few teachers are on an average salary of 60k. Added to that there are thousands upon thousands of public servants who work damn hard. Funny we never hear about overpaid private sector workers.

gurramok

Kristopherus wrote: »

Very few teachers are on an average salary of 60k. Added to that there are thousands upon thousands of public servants who work damn hard. Funny we never hear about overpaid private sector workers.

Yeh right regarding teachers. http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0416/teachers.html

Overpaid private sector workers compete against the planet.

P. Breathnach

gurramok wrote: »

... Overpaid private sector workers compete against the planet.

That's bollocks. Some of our highest paid private sector workers are lawyers, bankers, medics, bookies, accountants, drug dealers (both legal and illegal), and entertainers. Many of them don't even compete with one another in Ireland, let alone with the planet.

gurramok

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That's bollocks. Some of our highest paid private sector workers are lawyers, bankers, medics, bookies, accountants, drug dealers (both legal and illegal), and entertainers. Many of them don't even compete with one another in Ireland, let alone with the planet.

Lawyers - where is the govt regulation to open up their practice?
Bankers - Most are controlled by govt intervention(NAMA) hence where is the clampdown on excesses?
Medic - Oh yes, that protected shop by the medical profession, where is the regulation?

Regulation - setup by the public sector. One wonders:rolleyes:

Bookies - huh? Explain that one
Accountants - they have good business in a severe recession,

Drug dealers - The legal ones, IPSU. They have been rightly been challenged by the govt for overcharging.

Why don't you outline the vast majority of the private sector where the wages are incomparable to the public sector?

P. Breathnach

gurramok wrote: »

Lawyers - where is the govt regulation to open up their practice?
Bankers - Most are controlled by govt intervention(NAMA) hence where is the clampdown on excesses?
Medic - Oh yes, that protected shop by the medical profession, where is the regulation?

Regulation - setup by the public sector. One wonders:rolleyes:

Bookies - huh? Explain that one
Accountants - they have good business in a severe recession,

Drug dealers - The legal ones, IPSU. They have been rightly been challenged by the govt for overcharging.

Why don't you outline the vast majority of the private sector where the wages are incomparable to the public sector?

I see. Where people or classes of people in the private sector are very highly paid -- what some might see as overpaid -- you want to hold the public sector responsible for much of it.

I suspect that you hold tightly on to the idea that I was challenging, the idea that private sector pay rates are decided by competition with the global economy.

Look, there are two simple truths that many people are slow to acknowledge: that not everything about the public service is bad, and not everything about the private sector is good.

OMD

Kristopherus wrote: »

Very few teachers are on an average salary of 60k. Added to that there are thousands upon thousands of public servants who work damn hard. Funny we never hear about overpaid private sector workers.

Any teacher with 20 years experience would earn over 60K a year (after pay cuts). So any teacher over about 42 years old or so would earn 60K. If they had honours degree or masters or had a promotion they would reach 60K much sooner.

Welease

jumpin_macflash wrote: »

this thread is so narrow minded and offensive like so many threads popping atm. and its very obvious that those who want to cull the public service workers for daring to try and keep their wages have met very few nurses or teachers, because the majority are like the majority of the private sector, very hard working and conscientious.

next time a nurse cleans out your bed pan tell shes paid too much and see what reaction you get.

Absolutely.. we must never attempt to streamline any service within the PS because nurses work hard... The numerous layers of unnecessary management within the HSE must not be dealt with because nurses work hard.. /boggle

Do some of you people actually believe what you post?

They are a lot of very hard working dedicated people within both the Public and Private sectors. There are also wasters within both sectors, and there are roles that provide zero benefit to either organisation. As a nation we need to continue to look at if we are getting the best value for money from our services, and to look at if we can offer the best value to private companies who could locate here, and neither sector should be immune from that.