Round 1 to McLaren

frostie500

McLaren lauched their new car, the MP4-25, today and I have to say I think it's amazing looking!

The car looks to be quite an agressive departure from last years car and, like most of the grid this season, takes quite a few design cues from ex McLaren technical director Adrian Newey. The agressive sloped sidepods are very similer to the RB5 as is the use of pullrod rear suspension to aid weight distribution. The high nose is again more akin to the RB5 than the MP4-24.

With only the Ferrari launched so far as well I would have to say that I think the Macca is much better looking than the Ferrari F10

Cookie_Monster

The back of the airbox leading to the rear wing looks awful.

Not a good looking car IMO

Edit: Where are they managing to squeeze in the expanded fuel tank with the sides so profiled down like that?

zeris

I dislike the engine cover, looks like a piece of plastic after a blow torch accident. Like the shape of the side pods even if they are alarmingly wing shaped.

vincenzolorenzo

I think its one of the ugliest F1 cars for years! The engine cover fin thingy just looks awful. Maybe they've got the hop on everyone else but i doubt it. Reminds me a bit of the 95 McLaren, which was a dog.

On the positive side the front wing detail looks impressive, lets see how it goes in testing

robinph

zeris wrote: »

Like the shape of the side pods even if they are alarmingly wing shaped.

Yep, but upside down for a car.

keefg

I want one!

projectmayhem

Sorry lads but that thing looks fantastic. Definitely hints at the Newey legacy he's left behind at McLaren. I'm a Ferrari fan but it's hard not to look at that car and let your jaw slowly drop...

Cookie_Monster

robinph wrote: »

Yep, but upside down for a car.

except not. the more curved surface is on top, just like a plane's

The more I look at that picture the more i Hate it, I'm sure it'll look better front on at least

robinph

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

except not. the more curved surface is on top, just like a plane's

Exactly, that is upside down for a cars wing which are there to provide downward forces. With the longer curved surface on top a wing will provide lift as with aeroplane wings.

Clearly there is zero lift from that part of the design of the side pods then or they wouldn't have done it like that, will be to do with directing the airflow somewhere else.

zeris

robinph wrote: »

Exactly, that is upside down for a cars wing which are there to provide downward forces. With the longer curved surface on top a wing will provide lift as with aeroplane wings.

Clearly there is zero lift from that part of the design of the side pods then or they wouldn't have done it like that, will be to do with directing the airflow somewhere else.

All that confusion is my fault. I should have said aircraft wing in my first comment.

Maybe the sidepods will generate some lift but the accelerated air flow over the rear wing is more beneficial? Or maybe McLaren have a new tricky diffuser that gets airflow from the sidepods and somehow gets it under the chassis.

zeris

frostie500 wrote: »

The agressive sloped sidepods are very similer to the RB5 as is the use of pullrod rear suspension to aid weight distribution.

Just saw a clip of the launch and they went up along the side of the car and the suspension arm looks like it goes from the bottom on the wheel up to the chassis. That usually means it is a pushrod.

enzo7

I hope its as slow as it is ugly:D

vincenzolorenzo

zeris wrote: »

Just saw a clip of the launch and they went up along the side of the car and the suspension arm looks like it goes from the bottom on the wheel up to the chassis. That usually means it is a pushrod.

I think pretty much every F1 car over the past few years have used pushrod all round. Red Bull went for pull rods at the rear last year but when double diffusers were allowed then they had a tough job trying to fit in around the pullrods. THe only other car that I can think of in the alst 10 years or so with pullrods was the arrows from 2002 (I think)

Carroller16

Beautiful Car IMO... can't wait to see the Red Bull

Cookie_Monster

robinph wrote: »

Exactly, that is upside down for a cars wing which are there to provide downward forces. With the longer curved surface on top a wing will provide lift as with aeroplane wings.

Clearly there is zero lift from that part of the design of the side pods then or they wouldn't have done it like that, will be to do with directing the airflow somewhere else.

ah i get you now, read you reply in a different meaning

Frank Bullitt

Its the colour that makes it,im looking forward to the Merc and the RedBull

IM0

the Renault/RBR style ....what..the...the bit that joins the traditional high point of the car to the rear wing should have been banned for this year.
Otherwise its nice.

EvilMonkey

frostie500 wrote: »

McLaren lauched their new car, the MP4-25, today and I have to say I think it's amazing looking!

The only other 2010 cars i have seen are Ferrari and Williams so its a bit early to give Maca round 1(if that's all they win i will be happy), at least until we see the Red Bull

I hate the shark fin, i hope they get banned! Bernie.

projectmayhem wrote: »

Definitely hints at the Newey legacy he's left behind at McLaren.

Its not his legacy its the 09 Red Bull that so far everyone has copied.

joesoap007

round 1?
i dont think so,maybe its just i dont like them,,but the front wing has more fins than a bucket of fish,,more bits an bobs that can let you down, theysay that they made a big jump forward state of the art tech,,reminds of their 2000 2001 cars,to big of a jump

G-Money

I have to say I like the new McLaren. I think I like it better than the new Ferrari. They're saying that Ferrari are already rushing out a B spec of their car as their early figures from the windtunnel etc are not what they hoped.

Brawn and Red Bull had the best looking cars last year. Will be interesting to see what they come up with this year.

Mike Litoris

I loved the quirky look of the cars last year, especially the huge looking front wing on the Brawn.

I like this but I also think the Ferrari looks great. Since ditching the Schumacher pink for their traditional dark red any car they produce will look good imo.

Hopefully the new Virgin car will be nuts looking having being totally digitally designed.

It would be mad to see something like the below winning races next year.:D

zeris

McLaren at the launch where protective of their rear diffuser.

http://f1tailpipe.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/MP4-25-Rear-Profile.jpg

joesoap007

grandmaster wrote: »

I have to say I like the new McLaren. I think I like it better than the new Ferrari. They're saying that Ferrari are already rushing out a B spec of their car as their early figures from the windtunnel etc are not what they hoped.

Brawn and Red Bull had the best looking cars last year. Will be interesting to see what they come up with this year.

they started on that car last year have they made a mess all ready?

Frank Bullitt

Apparently Ferrari are laughing off the reports themselves,time will tell i suppose

smooch71

The new Ferrari is a far nicer looking machine. Thats coming from a Ferrari fan who is unashamedly biased and hates all things McLaren.

The commentators are going to have their hands full with 4 silver cars on the grid this year.

Slutmonkey57b

frostie500 wrote: »

The agressive sloped sidepods are very similer to the RB5 as is the use of pullrod rear suspension to aid weight distribution.

I've yet to see that quoted anywhere else, any sources for the idea they are running pullrod suspension?

frostie500

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

I've yet to see that quoted anywhere else, any sources for the idea they are running pullrod suspension?

I saw it on a tech website and took it as truth but the McLaren press release states that it is a pushrod system front and rear. Zeris pointed it out in an earleir posting I think. I quoted the other site without seeing any pics of the suspension prior to the mclaren press release

smooch71 wrote: »

The commentators are going to have their hands full with 4 silver cars on the grid this year.

Cant be any worse then when there was fourty Forti's in the field....or did it just seem like there was!

11811

Don't like the back of the engine cover at all, It does look like it has melted or something... Rest isn't bad really. Much prefer the F10!

joesoap007

smooch71 wrote: »

The new Ferrari is a far nicer looking machine. Thats coming from a Ferrari fan who is unashamedly biased and hates all things McLaren.

The commentators are going to have their hands full with 4 silver cars on the grid this year.

mc,cheating not ,McLaren lol,,your my kind of tifosi

round 1 to ferrari and Felipe Massa, first place in testing 1:12.574, 102 Laps

nice 1

forza ferrari

Slutmonkey57b

Testing laps at this stage mean nothing. Unfortunately the Maestro Ross Brawn, if you follow his interviews, will tell you exactly what is going on:

All the big teams are sandbagging their performance to some extent.
They are equally not running their race spec cars yet.
Fuel, tyres, setups, and optional parts make the comparisons between two runs from the same team using the same driver in the same session meaningless.
Charlie Whiting has already shot down more outlandish diffusers than the one McLaren have.

The F10 looks somewhat different even to the launch spec car - the nose seems lower and more aggressive. I could be wrong, though. Even so, the first few tests are meaningless. It was essentially a fluke that the Brawn/McLaren gap last year gave us any clues.

joesoap007

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Testing laps at this stage mean nothing. Unfortunately the Maestro Ross Brawn, if you follow his interviews, will tell you exactly what is going on:

All the big teams are sandbagging their performance to some extent.
They are equally not running their race spec cars yet.
Fuel, tyres, setups, and optional parts make the comparisons between two runs from the same team using the same driver in the same session meaningless.
Charlie Whiting has already shot down more outlandish diffusers than the one McLaren have.

The F10 looks somewhat different even to the launch spec car - the nose seems lower and more aggressive. I could be wrong, though. Even so, the first few tests are meaningless. It was essentially a fluke that the Brawn/McLaren gap last year gave us any clues.

maybe so ,but but if your a racer your going to push hard and see what she can do,,i would you would lol....time came down as well to 1:11.722, form yesterdays 1:12.574 ,,all in all good for massa hes getin faster

projectmayhem

joesoap007 wrote: »

maybe so ,but but if your a racer your going to push hard and see what she can do,,i would you would lol....time came down as well to 1:11.722, form yesterdays 1:12.574 ,,all in all good for massa hes getin faster

I think you may have a naive view on F1

Drivers push when told do. The good ones in top-tier teams also put the times that the teams tell them to in testing sessions like this. There's a lot of mind games going on. I doubt the F10 is the fastest car out there, but it could well have less fuel on board then anyone else, making it look threatening to other teams who may panic and do something silly.

shamwari

It bears repeating that the headline lap times are not necessarily an indication of true competitiveness because of the effect of fuel, tyres and track condition. But everyone - including Mercedes team boss Ross Brawn (see below) - seems agreed that the Ferrari is the quickest car in Valencia.

joesoap007

projectmayhem wrote: »

I think you may have a naive view on F1

Drivers push when told do. The good ones in top-tier teams also put the times that the teams tell them to in testing sessions like this. There's a lot of mind games going on. I doubt the F10 is the fastest car out there, but it could well have less fuel on board then anyone else, making it look threatening to other teams who may panic and do something silly.

i know that but dude,i didnt mean their pushing on every lap of their test but in be thinking maybe 20 25 laps to she whats shes made of,understand???

smooch71

projectmayhem wrote: »

Drivers push when told do. The good ones in top-tier teams also put the times that the teams tell them to in testing sessions like this. There's a lot of mind games going on. I doubt the F10 is the fastest car out there, but it could well have less fuel on board then anyone else, making it look threatening to other teams who may panic and do something silly.

I think you're right to a point but drivers are generally allowed off the leash in the closing stages of a test or practice session, and of course there are mind games involved.
Was it 2000 or 2001 that Prost GP won the "Winter World Championship" and had dissappeared by the end of the season?

But I'm curious to know on what grounds do you doubt the F10 is the fastest car there?

Bear in mind Ferrari have had a significant headstart on everyone and there is a fairly good chance they have it right this year.

projectmayhem

smooch71 wrote: »

But I'm curious to know on what grounds do you doubt the F10 is the fastest car there?

Bear in mind Ferrari have had a significant headstart on everyone and there is a fairly good chance they have it right this year.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a lifelong Ferrari fan but given the pre-testing blabbering from "sources" within Ferrari and general moaning about there needing an F10-B spec car, I'm still a little suspicious of the speed over other teams. No doubts whatsoever that we have the team to do something special, but what was all this talk before the season, and Ferrari complaining about the diffusers if they had the fastest car? They have a lack of complacency. Also, Brawn came out yesterday to say Ferrari have the fastest car and that he, and the others, have work to do if they want to beat it. No comment from Ferrari or anyone inside, even anonymously.

I realise they've a headstart but let's just think back to the pre-Todt/Brawn/Schumi days. It's not that long ago that Ferrari were like Toyota, dumping money into a team that did piss all and consistently made silly errors.

Basically it boils down to me being delighted if they're the fastest team. I can wear my Ferrari shirts with pride again... but I'm cautious about it.

Slutmonkey57b

projectmayhem wrote: »

I think you may have a naive view on F1

Drivers push when told do. The good ones in top-tier teams also put the times that the teams tell them to in testing sessions like this. There's a lot of mind games going on. I doubt the F10 is the fastest car out there, but it could well have less fuel on board then anyone else, making it look threatening to other teams who may panic and do something silly.

Exactly. Engineers like drivers who give them consistant, reliable data. This means that they can ignore factors like "Did the driver have a good breakfast" when determining if a part works. This is why Gascoyne likes Trulli - in a one-lap stint he can give you reliable data. It's also why Barrichello and Schumacher made a better partnership at Ferrari than Schumacher/Massa - quality of feedback.

And you're right PM - I wouldn't be prepared to assume that Ferrari aren't doing something akin to a "glory run" to assuage the doubters. Equally, their speed has been too consistant over long stints to assume that there's not a good underlying performance there. Whether that means they have as much scope for development as other teams that don't have their "war paint" on is another matter.

Oblomov

The essential data missing from claims at the Valencia testing, the number of laps in each timed section, large number of laps, heavy fuel load to start... small number of laps, light fuel load. Then dial in the times to give a better indication of the car's capability.

Some of the cars were running in excess of race distances, to evaluate car performance and handling with a constantly reducing fuel load. The times were clearly for the engineering data and not as a true indications of the speed.

The early runs on Monday with test drivers was a good indication of performance, albeit Ferrari have always like to dominate the "winter GP's"

But, as Ron Dennis loved to comment, " When the flag drops, the bull Sh1t stops"

frostie500

Oblomov wrote: »

The essential data missing from claims at the Valencia testing, the number of laps in each timed section, large number of laps, heavy fuel load to start... small number of laps, light fuel load. Then dial in the times to give a better indication of the car's capability.

Some of the cars were running in excess of race distances, to evaluate car performance and handling with a constantly reducing fuel load. The times were clearly for the engineering data and not as a true indications of the speed.

Yeah winter testing is there solely to make people look foolish by making rash judgments on performance and potential. I dont think anyone believes that the Sauber is the second fastest car in F1 or that the Toro Rosso is going to be faster than a McLaren this year. Teams all have different targets-Sauber are looking for sponsor, Ferrari and McLaren are working for a world title.

The only time we will get even close to an indication is at the last test in the last hour when teams will go out on low fuel and fresh boots and push it. I'd love to see F1 implement the MotoGP Zero idea of the last few years(they've cancelled it this year) and have an hour long session televised with the fastest driver getting a prize. In MotoGP they give away an M class BMW.

Oblomov wrote: »

The early runs on Monday with test drivers was a good indication of performance, albeit Ferrari have always like to dominate the "winter GP's"

I wouldnt say Ferrari has always liked to dominate winter testing. For most of the Schumacher years they did nearly all of their testing at Mugello and Fiorano and didnt come into direct competition until the first practice session

Oblomov

I wouldnt say Ferrari has always liked to dominate winter testing. For most of the Schumacher years they did nearly all of their testing at Mugello and Fiorano and didn't come into direct competition until the first practice session

But, all the teams were aware of the times at both Mugello and Fiorano to enable comparisons. The whole exercise is to dominate press coverage and undermind the confidence of the other teams. The lovely way of doing things, run on the smell of fuel, run in super light configuration, M & F circuits closed to other teams, complete freedom as to how they ran and away from general scrutiny.

The rivalry between Irvine and Schumacher, each posting faster times whilst only one driver was on circuit. The ensuing press coverage and times created its own image. All carefully stage managed by ferrari management

While other teams would watch the times and sit and do the sums to work out the power outputs and possible configs of the cars...... LOL what a way to do things.

Machiavelli at his best

frostie500

Oblomov wrote: »

But, all the teams were aware of the times at both Mugello and Fiorano to enable comparisons. The whole exercise is to dominate press coverage and undermind the confidence of the other teams. The lovely way of doing things, run on the smell of fuel, run in super light configuration, M & F circuits closed to other teams, complete freedom as to how they ran and away from general scrutiny.

The rivalry between Irvine and Schumacher, each posting faster times whilst only one driver was on circuit. The ensuing press coverage and times created its own image. All carefully stage managed by ferrari management

While other teams would watch the times and sit and do the sums to work out the power outputs and possible configs of the cars...... LOL what a way to do things.

Machiavelli at his best

I think you may be reading just a little bit too much into Ferrari's testing practices to be calling it Machiavellian. They own Muggelo and Fiorano why wouldnt they have used them when there was unlimited testing? You say that their entire testing was designed to 'dominate press coverage and undermind the confidence of the other teams' the sustained sucess of the team since 1997 would indicate that they probably had other ambitions with testing rather than getting press clippings.

If any team is undermind by the pace of a rival in testing it shows a fragility in their mindset that will never allow them to compete at the highest level. In testing you work through your own schudule and determine if the times correlate with the expected results-if they dont you've made an error and it doesnt matter if someone else is running low to get a quick time. To say teams are spending their time doing sums to see if Ferrari's times are competitive isnt the case. If they spend their time doing that what are they doing to make their car faster?

Oblomov

If any team is undermind by the pace of a rival in testing it shows a fragility in their mindset that will never allow them to compete at the highest level. In testing you work through your own schudule and determine if the times correlate with the expected results-if they dont you've made an error and it doesnt matter if someone else is running low to get a quick time. To say teams are spending their time doing sums to see if Ferrari's times are competitive isnt the case. If they spend their time doing that what are they doing to make their car faster?

The read outs on the pit screens and the monitors includes all the times for each car and driver... Each team is aware and mindful of the performance of their rivals.. at all levels. The choice of tyres, fuel carried even down to noise meters that have been used to read out engine RPM, the number of tricks and amount of subterfuge in creating 'I'm better than you' image within the pits.. even from wheel changing practice sessions..and that is not only F1.. the DTM and A1GP crews would practice on the days before the races and other teams would be watching and timing to ensure an accurate and detailed analysis and even attempts to poach members of the faster crews.

The pit crew overalls, the quality of food, the corporate entertainment all contribute to the image of the team. The public image, the pit lane walks, the whole motor racing merchandising is on a hierarchical system.. even from qualifying numbers, placing within the championships and pit lane position..

The history of sneaks, stealing ideas from other teams has been prevalent since motor racing began and part of the nature of the beast. Giving false info, dis-information another tactic used by teams. Why are suspensions units covered up? To stop prying eyes from learning exactly what is under the bodywork

Machiavelli could learn a few tricks from some of the racers. The movement of race engineers, designers etc between teams is not on a social scale but hoping to crib ideas and use the expertise of the individuals to raise standards.

Adrian Newey is a prime example, his near exit from McLaren to Jaguar, and the ensuing struggle to retain his services, his ' gardening leave' are all parts of the internal politics within the sport. The agreement with Red Bull that clinched the deal, all part of the ' come and work for me' bait.

frostie500

Oblomov wrote: »

The pit crew overalls, the quality of food, the corporate entertainment all contribute to the image of the team. The public image, the pit lane walks, the whole motor racing merchandising is on a hierarchical system.. even from qualifying numbers, placing within the championships and pit lane position.

Formula 1 is one of the worlds most technically avanced sports where teams require and demand large sponsorship packages, should they have their team members dressed in rags, eating spam and working in squalor? Motor racing merchanise is not based on a hierarchical system. If it was why was Jordan able to compete with Ferrari in merchandise sale? Why was Minardi able to sell any gear at all considering they couldnt even challenge for points in most races? The race numbers and pit lane orders are designated by the previous years championships how does is that affected by merchandising?

Oblomov wrote: »

The history of sneaks, stealing ideas from other teams has been prevalent since motor racing began and part of the nature of the beast. Giving false info, dis-information another tactic used by teams. Why are suspensions units covered up? To stop prying eyes from learning exactly what is under the bodywork

Machiavelli could learn a few tricks from some of the racers. The movement of race engineers, designers etc between teams is not on a social scale but hoping to crib ideas and use the expertise of the individuals to raise standards.

Adrian Newey is a prime example, his near exit from McLaren to Jaguar, and the ensuing struggle to retain his services, his ' gardening leave' are all parts of the internal politics within the sport. The agreement with Red Bull that clinched the deal, all part of the ' come and work for me' bait.

You were refering to the testing practices of Ferrari when you brought Machiavelli into the discussion, I'm still quite perplexed as to how the strategies employed by Ferrari could be deemed to be Machiavellian.

To get beyond that and reply to the rest of the above statement I wouldnt view a team or team member taking photos of a car and analysing the results to be Machiavellian either. I'd view it as people doing their job in a highly competitive industry. Same in relation to the movement of team personal. Is it Machiavellian to look for a new challenge as Newey did? Just so you know I dont agree with Newey backing out of his agreement with Jagaur but all sides came to an agreement and there was no 'agreement' for him to go and work with Red Bull as a direct result of the deal with Jag failing. His deal with Jaguar was for the 2002 season. He stayed at McLaren until 2006 when he joined Red Bull for pre season testing. The gardening leave that you are thinking is probably prior to signing for McLaren form Williams when he went on leave for six months. Was there a sinister motive for him to leave Williams that I am not aware of? He would never be technical director there and Patrick Head would continue to be viewed as the head technical thinker of Formula 1, was Newey wrong to look for a new job title, more responsibilty and to try and resurrect the McLaren team?

IM0

me@ucd wrote: »

the Renault/RBR style ....what..the...the bit that joins the traditional high point of the car to the rear wing should have been banned for this year.
Otherwise >>its nice<<.

fixed that for me, its grown on me now

Oblomov

The sudden shift in perspective? ! Adrian Newey did not just up and look for another job.. the thing called head hunting.. The deal with Red Bull was that they would help finance his racing.., the GT40 he wrote off... the other teams, McLaren and Williams considered it too dangerous for such an key employee to become involved in. The Jaguar deal was done at a party at the Newey's Cottage, friend of friends coming along..

Adrian Newey emerged unscathed from a sizeable crash at Le Mans over the weekend, while taking part in the Le Mans Classic event in a Ford GT40 which he owns. The Red Bull Racing chief technical officer reportedly went off at the second chicane but walked away unhurt from what was, by all accounts, a large accident.

The somewhat naive attitude that all is roses within F1 is to ignore the mass of wheelin' and dealing that goes on and the manipulation.

The extreme attitude of not wanting the highly paid staff to be seen in rags is not the gist of the argument, the appearance is for the sponsors, the small detail of names and tailored outfits for the multitude of sizes and shapes, both male and female. look closely at the quality and cut of the 'uniforms' and consider exactly how much is being spent on clothing alone, then the 'Hostesses' within the corporate entertainment units, the quality of food and drinks, the catering units with different specialised menus for staff, guests, drivers and management. Ferrari's boast of having the best food in the pit lane, all goes towards creating and maintaining the 'image'.

The corporate unit, prefabricated and almost mobile units, assembled and furnished within hours of arrival at a circuit. The pit garages, quickly decorated in the corporate colours, and just as easily changed overnight.


The competition for sponsors, the need to impress and give value for money to maintain the interests of the guests. Grand Prix meetings, half of the corporate guests are not even aware of which is the front or which is the rear... the mindset of being there and being able to tell friends .. blah blah ..and enjoying the free food and drink. Some, too pissed and complaining about the noise...

The accusation of hi-breed fuels, the use of almost toxic mixes during the turbo era, fuel being heated and piped through the exhaust systems to achieve the high temperatures to gain maximum power.... and .. the constant scrutineering checks on body and ride height dimensions, the need to standardise the engine management systems to stop the cheats... and the cries of being unable to fully decode the ECU's.

Obviously, we see motor racing from different perspectives, and from different view points. Cheating goes on at all levels, from karts to F1, from the parents seeking success for his son/daughter to the team owner seeking to maintain the way of life. The 'competitive spirit' does not stop as the driver gets out of the car, it is prevelant throughout the sport.

frostie500

Oblomov wrote: »

The sudden shift in perspective? ! Adrian Newey did not just up and look for another job.. the thing called head hunting.. The deal with Red Bull was that they would help finance his racing.., the GT40 he wrote off... the other teams, McLaren and Williams considered it too dangerous for such an key employee to become involved in. The Jaguar deal was done at a party at the Newey's Cottage, friend of friends coming along..

The somewhat naive attitude that all is roses within F1 is to ignore the mass of wheelin' and dealing that goes on and the manipulation.

Where did I say all was rosy in the world of Formula 1? I don’t view it to be any different from any other field filled with competive people. I think people have the right to choose where they work and to take another job offer that gives them the chance to showcase more of their ability as was the case when Newey left Williams. You seem to think that I have a sudden shift in perspective because Newey backed out of his Jaguar deal. That was a completely separate set of circumstances in my view. My problem wasn’t him looking to move, but rather the fact that he agreed to move and backed out of it in the manner he did and the fact that he left two teams in limbo at a point in time. That was what I didn’t agree with in relation to the Jag deal. As far as the Red Bull deal is concerned do you really think that Adrian Newey ony signed for the team because of assistance with running a GT40? I think you’ll find that is a much more naive attitutude than the one that you precive to be mine.

Oblomov wrote: »

The extreme attitude of not wanting the highly paid staff to be seen in rags is not the gist of the argument, the appearance is for the sponsors, the small detail of names and tailored outfits for the multitude of sizes and shapes, both male and female. look closely at the quality and cut of the 'uniforms' and consider exactly how much is being spent on clothing alone, then the 'Hostesses' within the corporate entertainment units, the quality of food and drinks, the catering units with different specialised menus for staff, guests, drivers and management. Ferrari's boast of having the best food in the pit lane, all goes towards creating and maintaining the 'image'.

Yet again you look at Ferrari as an example of an ‘ours is better mentality.’ Do you think that a company like Vodafone or Santander or indeed any of the countless car manufactures’ would invest the hundreds of millions of dollars in a team if they didn’t precieve that the team they were sponsoring was doing their best to be seen as a leading team in the paddock? To achieve that and to raise the capital required to go racing demands that teams give the appearance of such quality. You write about the requirements for different sizes for men and women that the teams have, what is the alternative? Just one medium shirt for all team members everyone has to make do with?

Oblomov wrote: »

The competition for sponsors, the need to impress and give value for money to maintain the interests of the guests. Grand Prix meetings, half of the corporate guests are not even aware of which is the front or which is the rear... the mindset of being there and being able to tell friends .. blah blah ..and enjoying the free food and drink. Some, too pissed and complaining about the noise... .

Companies and people have a right to spend their money in whatever means they wish. The sponsors pay the money to allow us to see racing, who are you to judge who they send to the races as their representative and their inherit views on motorsport?

Oblomov wrote: »

Obviously, we see motor racing from different perspectives, and from different view points. Cheating goes on at all levels, from karts to F1, from the parents seeking success for his son/daughter to the team owner seeking to maintain the way of life. The 'competitive spirit' does not stop as the driver gets out of the car, it is prevelant throughout the sport.

When did I post that I view cheating to be acceptable? I am not ashamed to say that I still view motorsport as a sport first and foremost. You seem to have in your post a belief that I disregard the business elements of the sport and think that when the flag drops the teams pack up everything and they all go out for pints and have a great party. I know what goes on when the cameras are away from the teams, motorsport is one of the most highly competitves sports on the planet filled with increadibly competitive people. I know that these people do what it takes to win but why should I take the approach that you do and deride the sport and believe that there is an ulterior motive to most actions in the paddock?


The only reason I posted in the first place was due to you saying that Machiavelli could learn a thing from these racers and that Ferrari's testing procedures were Machiavellian. I honestly do not know why you think in such a manner and was looking for clarification and yet all that I can see is that you have an increadibly cynical mind when it comes to watching a sport that is very close to my heart. You seem to believe that teams attempts to hide their true pacein testing is Machiavellian and I dont understand why. In your postings at times it seems that you view motorsport as a business yet it seems to me that you dispise the practices of the teams to raise the neccessary funds to go racing.

joesoap007

projectmayhem wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, I'm a lifelong Ferrari fan but given the pre-testing blabbering from "sources" within Ferrari and general moaning about there needing an F10-B spec car, I'm still a little suspicious of the speed over other teams. No doubts whatsoever that we have the team to do something special, but what was all this talk before the season, and Ferrari complaining about the diffusers if they had the fastest car? They have a lack of complacency. Also, Brawn came out yesterday to say Ferrari have the fastest car and that he, and the others, have work to do if they want to beat it. No comment from Ferrari or anyone inside, even anonymously.

I realise they've a headstart but let's just think back to the pre-Todt/Brawn/Schumi days. It's not that long ago that Ferrari were like Toyota, dumping money into a team that did piss all and consistently made silly errors.

Basically it boils down to me being delighted if they're the fastest team. I can wear my Ferrari shirts with pride again... but I'm cautious about it.

id say its a safe bet to get that shirt on lad,,cream allways rises to the top,,,we were realy bad last year ,,dumb team orders and drivers driving off with refueling hoses stil in done us the year before,,kimi came from nowere to be champ before that.so were dew a good one,,anyway the car done over 300 laps wit no problems at the last test so its all good that way as well,,2010 is going to a cracker,,