Chavez writes off Haiti's oil debt to Venezuela

Joey the lips

ei.sdraob wrote: »

oh are yee lot about to be sickened

You did not read my post before you replied. I said the IMF. There is no doubt in my mind what the US has done is brilliant.

ei.sdraob

Exile 1798 wrote: »

For your question to be a valid comparison it would require a situation where after Irish indpendence Britain with the threat of re-invasion extorted an enormous sum in “compensation” from Ireland which would take generations to pay of and completely cripple the country.

In such a case, yes I would absolutely demand that that money be paid back. Wouldn’t you?

if you bothered to read the thread you would see that a huge chunk of their debt was written of already last year before the earthquake

and the rest (700-800m$) is being written of by various countries after this earthquake

but way to dig up 200 year old dirt, that was very amusing

also if you happen to look at a map notice that the Hispaniola Island (do the Spanish owe them money too for colonization?) contains 2 countries with island being split in middle, with Dominican republic gaining complete independence later yet one has 5 times the gdp per capita of the other (and thats before the quake)

ei.sdraob

Joey the lips wrote: »

You did not read my post before you replied. I said the IMF. There is no doubt in my mind what the US has done is brilliant.

tell me where the link URL in 5th post points to?

this is what you said

Joey the lips wrote: »

Amazing.... A socialist putting his words into actions. Any links to this. I think i will frame it and post it to the IMF who agreed to suspend interest payments for "2 years."

you forgot to mention that IMF was one to write off the large chunk of their debt in summer

most of that money was given as loans to build up the country, by writing it off it ends up being a large gift to the country, i dont see Venezuela gifting billions to help build up Haiti

brianthebard wrote: »

You know Germany still pays reparations to Israel right? Of course you did....

do the Russians get a cent for 20 odd million killed in WW2? how about the French whose country ceased to exist in that time period? Exile 1798's linked idea is daft and is digging up old dirt

Exile 1798

ei.sdraob wrote: »

if you bothered to read the thread you would see that a huge chunk of their debt was written of already last year before the earthquake

and the rest (700-800m$) is being written of by various countries after this earthquake

but way to dig up 200 year old dirt, that was very amusing

also if you happen to look at a map notice that the Hispaniola Island (do the Spanish owe them money too for colonization?) contains 2 countries with island being split in middle, with Dominican republic gaining complete independence later yet one has 5 times the gdp per capita of the other (and thats before the quake)

You really have trouble with comprehension don't you?

It's not about debt - it's about extorted money. We're not talking about 200 years ago but an extortion racket that lasted up until 1947.

I am aware of the reality that this stolen money won't be paid back.

Alas that might can vanquish right.

However, as a principle I still support right. It's an interesting mentality that some people have that they will support might over right.

And you didn't answer any of my questions of why you seem to think crimes commited on a huge scale are acceptable?

I'll ask another. Earlier in this thread you praised the US and other governments for "forgivng" debt accrued by Haiti. Why then do you not support the return of money stolen from the country?

It really is all about power for you isnt it? You can like the act of the wealthy nation forgiving the debt of the poor wretched nation, but the idea of actual economic justice between rich and poor nations disgusts you.

brianthebard

ei.sdraob wrote: »

most of that money was given as loans to build up the country, by writing it off it ends up being a large gift to the country, i dont see Venezuela gifting billions to help build up Haiti

really?

http://www.cubavsbloqueo.cu/Default.aspx?tabid=2584

do the Russians get a cent for 20 odd million killed in WW2? how about the French whose country ceased to exist in that time period? Exile 1798's linked idea is daft and is digging up old dirt

Is that your way of saying you were wrong?

ei.sdraob

brianthebard wrote: »

really?

http://www.cubavsbloqueo.cu/Default.aspx?tabid=2584

i dont see any billions being mentioned? how much exactly has venezeula spent on aid?


hows your maths?

whats a larger debt number that was written off

295 or 1200?

Exile 1798 wrote: »

I'll ask another. Earlier in this thread you praised the US and other governments for "forgivng" debt accrued by Haiti. Why then do you not support the return of money stolen from the country?

It really is all about power for you isnt it? You can like the act of the wealthy nation forgiving the debt of the poor wretched nation, but the idea of actual economic justice between rich and poor nations disgusts you.

once again how about the money and resources "stolen" by the British while they occupied Ireland? do we get that back too

brianthebard

ei.sdraob wrote: »

hows your maths?

whats a larger number

295 or 1200?

Haha. So you're wrong again, but this time the problem is Venezuela didn't give enough? extra lolz.

once again how about the money and resources "stolen" by the British while they occupied Ireland? do we get that back too

It would be nice wouldn't it? Going to admit you were wrong about reparations yet?

Exile 1798

ei.sdraob wrote: »

hows your maths?

whats a larger number

295 or 1200?




once again how about the money and resources "stolen" by the British while they occupied Ireland? do we get that back too

Anyone that reads this thread will notice that I've already answered that question yet you have avoided answering any of mine.

Why are you dodging?

ei.sdraob

brianthebard wrote: »

Haha. So you're wrong again, but this time the problem is Venezuela didn't give enough? extra lolz.

i asked for figures to show that Venezuela has given or written off billions (or equivalent)

you posted a link to a cuban site

so where is the $$$ ? show me the money

Exile 1798 wrote: »

Anyone that reads this thread will notice that I've already answered that question yet you have avoided answering any of mine.

Why are you dodging?

what are you dodging, you linked idea is downright daft

im still waiting on an answer as to: does ireland deserve money for damage done by the British

ei.sdraob

brianthebard wrote: »

Haha. So you're wrong again, but this time the problem is Venezuela didn't give enough? extra lolz.

let me point you to OPs post

digme wrote: »

Caracas, Jan 26 (IANS/EFE) President Hugo Chavez has announced that he will write off the undisclosed sum Haiti owes Venezuela for oil as part of a regional bloc's plans to help the impoverished Caribbean nation after the devastating Jan 12 earthquake.

I wonder will other nations now follow his lead?

i have shown in this thread, that not only have other nations "followed" lead but they also have written off huge amounts of debt only a few months before the earthquake and in the aftermath of the hurricanes which have also devastated the country not too long ago

BluePlanet wrote: »

It would be interesting to see who Haiti owes money to.
Some countries probably will follow suit, but some (USA i'm looking at you) probably won't. Quid pro quo.
Money is the oxygen of Capitalism.

i have also shown that money is still owed to Venezeula (and other latin american countries) via IDB bank loans


so far im the only one posting figures, references and facts to show that theres alot more to this story than were being told
while i get thrown all sorts of hysterical "you evil bastard" type emotive posts in reply

Exile 1798

ei.sdraob wrote: »

i asked for figures to show that Venezuela has given or written off billions (or equivalent)

you posted a link to a cuban site

so where is the $$$ ? show me the money



what are you dodging, you linked idea is downright daft

im still waiting on an answer as to: does ireland deserve money for damage done by the British

Once again, I've already answered that question in post 30.

You didn't reply to my answer because you couldn't. By repeating this question and continuing to pretend that this question hasnt been answered you are lying outright.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64235785&postcount=30

Mods, I trust that calling out a lie isn't considered ad hominem if it is factual and easily verifiable.

SLUSK

I assume that these loans were funded by the taxpayers so writing off the debt is the equivalent of stealing tax payers money. In politics the worst thieves get rewarded really well.

ei.sdraob

Exile 1798 wrote: »

Once again, I've already answered that question in post 30.

You didn't reply to my answer because you couldn't. By repeating this question and continuing to pretend that this question hasnt been answered you are lying outright.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64235785&postcount=30

Mods, I trust that calling out a lie isn't considered ad hominem if it is factual and easily verifiable.

heres your post and my answer

Exile 1798 wrote:

For your question to be a valid comparison it would require a situation where after Irish indpendence Britain with the threat of re-invasion extorted an enormous sum in “compensation” from Ireland which would take generations to pay of and completely cripple the country.

In such a case, yes I would absolutely demand that that money be paid back. Wouldn’t you?

no I would not demand money to be paid back, do you know why?

1. since its history

2. what you described has happened in 20th century here in Europe, after WW1 Germany was forced to "compensate" several countries under Versailes agreement, that left Germany crippled and helped Hitler (woot! i Goodwinised the thread) rise to power as "generations had to pay of and completely cripple the country"

3. both Ireland, Dominican Republic and Haiti emerged from under colonial boot (and "extortion") at around same time mid 20th century
GNP per Capita of these 3 countries > http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=ny_gnp_pcap_pp_cd&idim=country:IRL:DOM:HTI&tstart=315532800000&tunit=Y&tlen=28
the current problems of Haiti have feck all to do with colonization or subsequent "extortion", as its neighbor Dominican Republic who share half of the Hispaniola island and are not doing too bad as a country demonstrates. Why does Dominican republic with almost same land area, population and history has 5x the wealth per person that Haiti?

some more stats >
http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=sp_pop_totl&idim=country:IRL:HTI:DOM&tstart=-315619200000&tunit=Y&tlen=48

/

brianthebard

ei.sdraob wrote: »

i asked for figures to show that Venezuela has given or written off billions (or equivalent)

you posted a link to a cuban site

so where is the $$$ ? show me the money

Right so you didn't read the article I take it? Cause if you did then there would be no need to ask where the money is, and you'd have to admit you're wrong. Again.

ei.sdraob

brianthebard wrote: »

Right so you didn't read the article I take it? Cause if you did then there would be no need to ask where the money is, and you'd have to admit you're wrong. Again.

i did read the article, it was nice of Cuba and Venezuela to help, but that aid doesnt not come close to how much money was given to Haiti to build up a country and infrastructure, and then written off

and of course other countries have provided aid to Haiti too

anyways this thread is about debt and forgiving debt, why are you mucking the waters by dragging aid into this?

brianthebard

ei.sdraob wrote: »

so far im the only one posting figures, references and facts to show that theres alot more to this story than were being told
while i get thrown all sorts of hysterical "you evil bastard" type emotive posts in reply

Aww, you poor wee thing you. It must be hard having to stand up for little old capitalism all on your own against the mighty extreme left wingers on this forum huh?:rolleyes: There there, I've made it better for you by posting a link to an article which states that Venezuela was already giving Haiti money last year, before the earthquake. So far from this being posturing on Chavez's part its par for the course at this stage. But sure you were probably so shook from those 'emotive posts' (which you'd never do, of course) that you were temporarily unable to read articles. Isn't that so?

brianthebard

ei.sdraob wrote: »

anyways this thread is about debt and forgiving debt, why are you mucking the waters by dragging aid into this?

I was answering your question. I suppose you didn't really want it answered, but instead wanted to keep telling us what a prick Chavez is, right?

Flamed Diving

I hear that Israel are suing Egypt for damages caused in the Old Testament. I also hear that humanity are suing God on the grounds of unfair dismissal from the Garden of Eden Corp. A teenager who 'didn't ask to be born' is suing the Universe for forming.

ei.sdraob

brianthebard wrote: »

I was answering your question. I suppose you didn't really want it answered, but instead wanted to keep telling us what a prick Chavez is, right?

erm what the **** are you talking about

1. i wasnt the one who started the thread

2. if you read the first 3 posts the posters praise Chavez while critising the evil capitalists, i have shown this to be not only false but very wrong, as many countries are helping Haiti and have helped before the quake

3. where have i said that Chavez is a prick? if anything myself and @dlofnep agreed (now theres something! we never agree on anything usually ) that its a good thing thats being done and all of the debt should be written off:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64234563&postcount=18
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64235209&postcount=23
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64235247&postcount=24

4. im not the one whose using a disaster for political dickwaving

brianthebard wrote: »

Aww, you poor wee thing you. It must be hard having to stand up for little old capitalism all on your own against the mighty extreme left wingers on this forum huh?:rolleyes: There there, I've made it better for you by posting a link to an article which states that Venezuela was already giving Haiti money last year, before the earthquake. So far from this being posturing on Chavez's part its par for the course at this stage. But sure you were probably so shook from those 'emotive posts' (which you'd never do, of course) that you were temporarily unable to read articles. Isn't that so?

thats right keep attacking me while failing to address or ignoring any of the points brought up in the thread, as a moderator you should know better how to debate

.

Exile 1798

ei.sdraob wrote: »

heres your post and my answer



no I would not demand money to be paid back, do you know why?

1. since its history

2. what you described has happened in 20th century here in Europe, after WW1 Germany was forced to "compensate" several countries under Versailes agreement, that left Germany crippled and helped Hitler (woot! i Goodwinised the thread) rise to power as "generations had to pay of and completely cripple the country"

3. both Ireland, Dominican Republic and Haiti emerged from under colonial boot (and "extortion") at around same time mid 20th century
GNP per Capita of these 3 countries > http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=ny_gnp_pcap_pp_cd&idim=country:IRL:DOM:HTI&tstart=315532800000&tunit=Y&tlen=28
the current problems of Haiti have feck all to do with colonization or subsequent "extortion", as its neighbor Dominican Republic who share half of the Hispaniola island and are not doing too bad as a country demonstrates. Why does Dominican republic with almost same land area, population and history has 5x the wealth per person that Haiti?

some more stats >
http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=sp_pop_totl&idim=country:IRL:HTI:DOM&tstart=-315619200000&tunit=Y&tlen=48

/

If in such a situation you wouldn't demand that extorted money back then you are very clearly on the side of the thief and against the victum.

1) It's history - it's recent history, living memory history that has made a major effect on the present.

2) In your ill fitting Verailes comparison Haiti takes the place of Germany. As I understand it you're saying that what was demanded of Germany was wrong, so what then was is your point?

3) You're making stuff up. The Dominican Republic does not have the "same" history as Haiti. They have a shared, but different history just as Ireland and Britian do.

I would I imagine the disparity has a lot to do with the different experience of the countries under colonization and their treatment by the great powers after independence. Though I'm sure you'd have us believe it's actually because the Dominicans are great hard working capitalists and the the Haitians havent embraced neo-liberalism or some nonsense like that.

brianthebard

ei.sdraob wrote: »

erm what the **** are you talking about

1. i wasnt the one who started the thread

So? Does that mean you are automatically beyond being questioned?

2. if you read the first 3 posts the posters praise Chavez while critising the evil capitalists, i have shown this to be not only false but very wrong, as many countries are helping Haiti and have helped before the quake

You've proven that these posters are false? You can't prove an opinion is false, and you haven't proven that Chavez is not giving money to Haiti.

3. im not the one whose using a disaster for political dickwaving

Nor has chavez, I've already shown that this aid is a policy of his.

thats right keep attacking me while failing to address or ignoring any of the points brought up in the thread, as a moderator you should know better how to debate

.

I've addressed several of your mistakes and 'points' and all you can do is make a list pretending that really, you've been talking about something completely different all along. :rolleyes:

ei.sdraob

Exile 1798 wrote: »

1) It's history - it's recent history, living memory history that has made a major effect on the present. .

so was the British colonization of Ireland (some members here would say is still ongoing)

Exile 1798 wrote: »

2) In your ill fitting Verailes comparison Haiti takes the place of Germany. As I understand if you're saying that what was demanded of Germany was wrong, so what then was is your point?
.

repatriations have squeezed the Germans and pushed them into Hitlers hands and WW2 followed, theres a reason why EU was founded no one wants a repeat of whats happened and people in Europe figured that by forgiving they can move forward, and now the EU is the largest economy in the world and for first time in history we have peace on this continent

Exile 1798 wrote: »

g stuff up. The Dominican Republic does not have the "same" history as Haiti. They have a shared, but different history just as Ireland and Britian do.
.

i recommend you read this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispaniola
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominican_Republic
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti

both were colonies of spain and france, ireland was a colony of britain, theres a huge difference

Exile 1798 wrote: »

I would I imagine the disparity has a lot to do with the different experience of the countries under colonization and their treatment by the great powers after independence. Though I'm sure you'd have us believe it's actually because the Dominicans are great hard working capitalists and the the Haitians havent embraced neo-liberalism or some nonsense like that.

funny that you brought up that one, heres what wiki has to say

The Dominican Republic has adopted economic liberalism, and has the second largest economy in the Caribbean
....
The Dominican Republic has become the Caribbean's largest tourist destination; the country's year-round golf courses are among the top attractions

ei.sdraob

brianthebard wrote: »

and you haven't proven that Chavez is not giving money to Haiti.

where in this thread have i set out to do that




my posts have addressed OPs question (and 2 subsequent posts), lets reiterate the OPs post

digme wrote: »

Caracas, Jan 26 (IANS/EFE) President Hugo Chavez has announced that he will write off the undisclosed sum Haiti owes Venezuela for oil as part of a regional bloc's plans to help the impoverished Caribbean nation after the devastating Jan 12 earthquake.

I wonder will other nations now follow his lead?

brianthebard

ei.sdraob wrote: »

where in this thread have i set out to do that

You said that you proved the op to be false and wrong. Part of that would have to be showing that Chavez is not actually giving Haiti money. I take it by your selective quoting that you accept all my other points?

ei.sdraob

brianthebard wrote: »

You said that you proved the op to be false and wrong.

:facepalm:

i showed that not only other countries have helped, they have helped in larger amounts and even before the quake

he asked whether other countries will follow the lead, while ignoring the bigger picture

brianthebard wrote: »

I take it by your selective quoting that you accept all my other points?

not at all,

you obviously have a problem with me presenting facts that contradict with your leftie world view and you are derailing a thread in order to make it personal, for the 2nd time as a moderator you should know better how to debate

brianthebard wrote: »

So? Does that mean you are automatically beyond being questioned?

question away, but try to back your opinions or rants with facts, and for that matter how about you read the whole thread its rather tiring having to explain myself to someone who is ignoring the first half of this thread and jumped into the thread in order to launch a personal attack

brianthebard wrote: »

You can't prove an opinion is false

... but you can show that an opinion is based on wrong logic or/and facts

.

brianthebard

ei.sdraob wrote: »

:facepalm:

i showed that not only other countries have helped, they have helped in larger amounts and even before the quake

So its all about who has the most cash? Now who's willy waving?

you obviously have a problem with me presenting facts that contradict with your leftie world view and you are derailing a thread in order to make it personal, for the 2nd time as a moderator you should know better how to debate

Most of your 'facts' have not been true. I'm not a mod of politics and I don't know what it has to do with anything. I love how responding to your off topic points is supposedly derailing the thread, but your personal attacks on the op and your personal desire to attack Chavez have nothing to do with it. funny that.

question away, but try to back your opinions or rants with facts, and for that matter how about you read the whole thread its rather tiring having to explain myself to someone who is ignoring the first half of this thread and jumped into the thread in order to launch a personal attack

I've read the whole thread. I provided facts, but you keep pretending they don't exist.

... but you can show that an opinion is based on wrong logic or/and facts

.

not what you were claiming to do. Btw am I to assume you realise now that Chavez is not giving aid for willy waving purposes, since you've ignored that point twice or three times now?

ei.sdraob

brianthebard wrote: »

So its all about who has the most cash? Now who's willy waving?

ffs for the 5th time

the OP asked

digme wrote: »

I wonder will other nations now follow his lead?

i have shown that other nations not only have helped via aid
but have also written of huge amounts of debt already
and are planning to write off the remainder

i also shown that Haiti still owes money to Venezuela, and theres no sign (yet?) of that being written of

brianthebard wrote: »

Most of your 'facts' have not been true. I'm not a mod of politics and I don't know what it has to do with anything.

which facts and references posted here are not true? please do tell i am waiting

brianthebard wrote: »

but your personal attacks on the op and your personal desire to attack Chavez have nothing to do with it. funny that.

yes i dont like the guy (Chavez)

but as i have shown me and @dlofnep have come to a conclusion and agreement by page 2 of this thread, let me remind you that both of us rarely ever agree on anything and often hold opposing viepoints in other threads

posters #2 & 3 tried to paint him as some sort of hero, while the reality is hes one of many people/countries/organisations who are helping

brianthebard wrote: »

not what you were claiming to do. Btw am I to assume you realise now that Chavez is not giving aid for willy waving purposes, since you've ignored that point twice or three times now?

other countries and organisations are giving aid too and helping on much larger scales, i dont see threads being started praising them

brianthebard

ei.sdraob wrote: »

ffs for the 5th time

the OP asked

yes the op asked a question, they didn not make a definitive statement, but you acted as if they had.

which facts and references posted here are not true? please do tell i am waiting

You suggested that reparations were ridiculous and made a historical reference that was inaccurate. You also claimed that Venezuela was not giving Haiti money, which was not true.

other countries and organisations are giving aid too and helping on much larger scales, i dont see threads being started praising them

Obviously this thread was an attempt by the op to undo the damage done by a thread last week (which you participated in to a large degree) where Chavez was painted in a bad light for no reason.

ei.sdraob

brianthebard wrote: »

yes the op asked a question, they didn not make a definitive statement, but you acted as if they had.

why dont you read the first 3 posts over and over a few times, im getting rather tired of re-quoting what was posted by the first 3 posters

brianthebard wrote: »

You suggested that reparations were ridiculous and made a historical reference that was inaccurate.

the thread was hijacked by an offtopic suggestions about france "owing" them money for their past colonial oppression, my opinion (that was backed by 3 reasons based in historical facts) is that its a daft suggestion/idea

what was that you said?

brianthebar wrote:

You can't prove an opinion is false

brianthebard wrote: »

You also claimed that Venezuela was not giving Haiti money, which was not true.
.

where have i said that?

brianthebard wrote: »

Obviously this thread was an attempt by the op to undo the damage done by a thread last week (which you participated in to a large degree) where Chavez was painted in a bad light for no reason.

interesting use of words there

"damage"

if you bothered to read that thread too it was settled early on the thread that the claim was rather daft, even for him (tho i wouldn't put it past him based on his other comments and actions)

that thread then descended into a discussion over authoritarianism vs liberalism, and how left wing dictatorships have a funny tendency to end up as authoritarian dictatorships with people loosing rights and freedom, anyways im not going into all of that again, nothing to do with this thread

seems you are the one who is left with bad taste in your mouth and cant accept that other countries are helping too, and its not only your hero Chavez riding alone to the rescue, im sure many Haitians couldnt give a damn about now about the local geopolitics and have bigger concerns

sceptre

Less prissiness, more politeness please. That's a nice but strong instruction. Cheers.

/mod