My Job - Computer Programmer

Malice

Occupation: I'm a computer programmer with a small company in Kerry that develops a range of web-based software applications, most notably for the American real-estate market. So far I have worked in a number of different areas e.g. the look and feel of the web application, database queries, report creation and of course the business logic.
Qualifications held: I have a BSc in Software Development and a few certificates in older technologies like Windows NT.
Previous Jobs: Various manual labour positions like furniture moving and barman. I've also worked as on an assembly line and as a website designer.
Daily/weekly/yearly routine: My daily routine generally consists of a quick team meeting in the morning where everyone gives a brief overview of what they did the previous day and what they will do for the current day. Everything is broken down into tasks with an estimated time for completion.

Throughout the day then it's basically a case of working away on assigned tasks. We work in an open-plan office so it's easy enough for people to get together and discuss something if required.

As we support American offices, our afternoons and evenings are often taken up with conference calls with clients.

Without getting too technical, there are a wide variety of technologies available for handling different aspects of the business. One day I might be working on the look and feel of the application, the next day I might be working on the database or the business logic.

Age bracket: 30-40
General comments: First and foremost I suppose if you are thinking about getting into this area it's vital to have a liking of computers as you're going to spend a lot of time dealing with them .

I went to college from 1997 to 2001 but I can't imagine things have changed too much. In my first year class there were 60 people initially. At my fourth year graduation there were 20. A lot of people seem to choose computers without realising what they are getting themselves in to.

Other people would probably recommend having a good knowledge of maths but I would say that being able to think logically is more important. I believe that you need to be able to take a requirement like "This drop-down list should contain a list of countries" and convert that into a set of steps like:
. Connect to database
. Query the Countries table for the list of countries.
. Save the list of countries somewhere.
. Set the drop-down list to be filled by the saved list of countries.

Something else that I believe is very important is to have other interests besides computers. If you spend 8+ hours a day stuck to a computer monitor at work, it's not the most healthy thing to go home and do the same in the evening .

What I like about my job
. Each day brings new challenges. Sure there are going to be similarities but generally each assigned task is going to have something different about it.
. You get to work with some very smart people. This might not hold true for every organisation but where I work currently I am fortunate to have some colleagues that are very knowledgeable and willing to share that knowledge.
. It might sound like a cliché but I get a sense of satisfaction whenever I successfully resolve a support issue, especially if it is something complicated (which is often the case ).

What I dislike about my job
. The hours can be long. If something goes wrong or an urgent support request comes in, you can often still be in the office at 8pm (or longer) despite having started at 8am.
. This is just specific to the office that I'm in currently but due to the fact that it's open plan, it can often be hard to concentrate even when listening to music or something to block out surrounding noise.

barry181091

Great post

This is a silly question, but when you started your degree, How much of an interest in computers/I.T did you have ? Were you in any way advanced before it, like already building programs etc.

Its just that im thinking of doing a CS&IT degree (NUIG one to be specific) and I see everywhere that you should have a clear 'interest in computers' but they never really go into the specifics of that , I just wonder is my level of interest enough.

I see some guys who have built numerous advanced programs/sites/hacks etc (Which I haven't ) by my age and wonder is that the level of interest required or an exception to the rule :rolleyes:

I do have an interest in computers; Have dabbled in Linux recently (Really to dabble with aircrack/Backtrack tbh ), Can do the hardware stuff (Build them, buy new parts etc), Can do majority of stuff in windows/programs etc (Apart from specialist programs like 3dsmax, autocad, programming apps etc. I mean in general.), fix/troubleshoot most problems with computer (From bad ram to trying to figure out what a particular BSOD error code is trying to tell me before it flashes to oblivion :P). Never got into the programming side of things though, not that I really tried. Anyway, I just want to know what 'level' of interest is required in computers/I.T.

When you say, 'One should know what they are getting into', How do you mean ? I saw one site mentioning not to expect just learning how to use word, excel etc, which some people expect I.T courses are about. (I knew that anyway ) Is that what you are implying in a sense ?

You also mentioned, one should be logical. I have also seen this suggestion on career/college websites numerous times. Thing is, How do I figure out if I am logical ? Another silly question, but I can't really tell if im a logical thinker or not. Can't use the 'Maths logic' angle as i'm not in Honours

At least I can say I have other interests as you mentioned was important, Gotta love Rammstein (Yes, I just shamlessly plugged them in as I saw you were a mod for the R&M forum )

Sorry for the silly questions and rambling post .

Thanks,
Barry.

Malice

Hi Barry,

Thanks for your questions, I'll try to answer them as best I can!

barry181091 wrote: »

How much of an interest in computers/I.T did you have ? Were you in any way advanced before it, like already building programs etc.

My parents bought me a Commodore 64 in 1987 and our first family PC in 1992 and in those days (with the PC specifically) you had to know your way around them. You had to know how to fiddle with the MS DOS startup files so that games would run and if you wanted your computer to make sounds of a higher quality than simple beeps you had to install the sound card yourself.

As for building programs before I went to college, I had definitely messed around with a few things. I remember spending most of a weekend typing in a program on the C-64. As I recall it was a simple Battleships clone but it was quite an eye-opening experience to realise that I had created it. I very quickly learned how to cheat by changing the relevant lines .

In my case so, I suppose I was pretty advanced compared to a few of my classmates but I imagine that as long as you're willing to work hard you should be able to pick things up easily. Also these days Windows hides a lot of the complexity away from the user so that they can just get on with what they need to do.

barry181091 wrote:

Its just that im thinking of doing a CS&IT degree (NUIG one to be specific) and I see everywhere that you should have a clear 'interest in computers' but they never really go into the specifics of that , I just wonder is my level of interest enough.

I see some guys who have built numerous advanced programs/sites/hacks etc (Which I haven't ) by my age and wonder is that the level of interest required or an exception to the rule :rolleyes:

I do have an interest in computers; Have dabbled in Linux recently (Really to dabble with aircrack/Backtrack tbh ), Can do the hardware stuff (Build them, buy new parts etc), Can do majority of stuff in windows/programs etc (Apart from specialist programs like 3dsmax, autocad, programming apps etc. I mean in general.), fix/troubleshoot most problems with computer (From bad ram to trying to figure out what a particular BSOD error code is trying to tell me before it flashes to oblivion :P). Never got into the programming side of things though, not that I really tried. Anyway, I just want to know what 'level' of interest is required in computers/I.T.

Judging by what you've written just there I'd say you'll be fine. I had no idea what Linux was when I went to college . There are always going to be people better than you at things. Don't worry if you can't knock out a clone of E-Bay.com or something over a weekend. If you are concerned, you can always register a domain, pick a hosting package and start putting up a site on the Internet as a learning exercise.

barry181091 wrote:

When you say, 'One should know what they are getting into', How do you mean ? I saw one site mentioning not to expect just learning how to use word, excel etc, which some people expect I.T courses are about. (I knew that anyway ) Is that what you are implying in a sense ?

Good question. I've only ever done one college course so this is just based off my own experience but I do remember friends of mine studying Arts, for example, purely because they didn't really know what they wanted to do but they knew they wanted to go to college. I suppose to put it in perspective, a lot of people went to college in 1997 because free third-level education had recently been introduced. Studying computers is a massive area and I saw a lot of people start my course who were completely unprepared. Some stuck it out, most didn't. I suppose what I mean is to be prepared to spend a lot of time in front of a computer. In that sense it's good practice for your career post-graduation .

barry181091 wrote:

You also mentioned, one should be logical. I have also seen this suggestion on career/college websites numerous times. Thing is, How do I figure out if I am logical ? Another silly question, but I can't really tell if im a logical thinker or not. Can't use the 'Maths logic' angle as i'm not in Honours

First off, I studied Pass Maths and scraped a C2. Secondly, judging by the way you formatted your post with each paragraph addressing a specific point, you probably already are a logical thinker .

If you look at the example I provided, it's about being able to lay out a set of steps so that you can implement a solution to whatever issue you are facing. I did a quick Google search so if you feel like reading more about logical thinking, try this or this.

barry181091 wrote:

At least I can say I have other interests as you mentioned was important, Gotta love Rammstein (Yes, I just shamlessly plugged them in as I saw you were a mod for the R&M forum )

Funnily enough, a lot of programmers I've met are also metal fans. I find though that I often end up listening to ambient or trip-hop stuff when I'm programming otherwise I end up tapping my feet along to the drums or playing air guitar or something which doesn't look great in an open-plan office!

barry181091 wrote:

Sorry for the silly questions and rambling post .

There are no stupid questions, just stupid people. Or something...

barry181091

Thanks for the informative post.

The earliest PC/Computer I remember Is a Win 95 machine in the house and i was too young then to use it, so I was past the generation of the early 'hardcore' computers

One thing, You say you are a programmer, Is that the same as a Software Engineer ?

Malice

barry181091 wrote: »

One thing, You say you are a programmer, Is that the same as a Software Engineer ?

That's another interesting question . I'm using the term "Computer Programmer" whereas my job title and my degree both feature the term "Software Developer" so they essentially mean the same thing.

I think the term Software Engineer is often used to make a position sound more attractive than it actually is and also thrown about a lot by clueless HR people. I would envisage a Software Engineer might be slightly higher up the food chain in an organisation and be involved in more of the planning or management areas.

If you're really curious have a read here, here and here.

barry181091

Malice_ wrote: »

That's another interesting question . I'm using the term "Computer Programmer" whereas my job title and my degree both feature the term "Software Developer" so they essentially mean the same thing.

I think the term Software Engineer is often used to make a position sound more attractive than it actually is and also thrown about a lot by clueless HR people. I would envisage a Software Engineer might be slightly higher up the food chain in an organisation and be involved in more of the planning or management areas.

If you're really curious have a read here, here and here.

Thanks for the links.

Yeah, I think alot of it has to do with the fact that a Software Engineer sounds more professional or prestigious than a Computer Programmer, but essentially the same.

If you don't mind me asking, Which course in college did you do ? How did you find it ? Was it pure programming you undertook or a mix with C.Systems/General I.T/Maths etc ?

Its just that the course i'm looking at (GY350) is 'Computer Science and Information Technology' in NUIG, as opposed to most Uni's course of 'Computer Science' or 'Software Development'. Just looking into would there be a major difference.

B.

Malice

barry181091 wrote: »

If you don't mind me asking, Which course in college did you do ? How did you find it ? Was it pure programming you undertook or a mix with C.Systems/General I.T/Maths etc ?

Its just that the course i'm looking at (GY350) is 'Computer Science and Information Technology' in NUIG, as opposed to most Uni's course of 'Computer Science' or 'Software Development'. Just looking into would there be a major difference.

I studied Software Development in GMIT so I can't advise you on the NUIG course.

The course was quite broad with theoretical subjects taught alongside the obvious programming ones. Looking at the subject list for it now, it seems like it has been updated to cover the Internet and mobile development which is good news.

As for whether I liked it or not, I could probably start a whole new thread listing out things I disliked out the course but it served a purpose in providing me with a qualification so I suppose it can't have been that bad.

barry181091

Malice_ wrote: »

I studied Software Development in GMIT so I can't advise you on the NUIG course.

The course was quite broad with theoretical subjects taught alongside the obvious programming ones. Looking at the subject list for it now, it seems like it has been updated to cover the Internet and mobile development which is good news.

As for whether I liked it or not, I could probably start a whole new thread listing out things I disliked out the course but it served a purpose in providing me with a qualification so I suppose it can't have been that bad.

Funny thing, My cousin is in 1st year doing that course He seems to like it except for the long breaks between classes. They started doing Java for this 1st year class instead of C++ before, so he doesn't know is that a good thing or not

I would have to like my course, I dislike secondary school enough already

What do you think of IT's compared to Uni's ? I know you probably can't comment too much on Uni's. The aspects of IT's that I see would bother me are:

- They are too much like Secondary School (Discipline etc).
- Have few societies and social aspects.

Now these are stereotypical 'features' of an IT but are they in anyway true ?

Barry.

Ps. Thanks for all the help

Atomic Pineapple

barry181091 wrote: »

- They are too much like Secondary School (Discipline etc).
- Have few societies and social aspects.

Now these are stereotypical 'features' of an IT but are they in anyway true ?

No!

I went to DKIT and it was nothing like secondary school, I had complete freedom, sure you can get a lecturer who wont tolerate you coming and going from class anytime you feel during class. But its up to you whether you go or not and there is no discipline or anything forced on you. (apart from the obvious following college rules, like no abusing other students or criminal activity ect..)

This is off set by the fact you will have a much better learning experience with smaller classes and easier access to lecturers for asking questions.

You will have a better relationships with lecturers and that in my opinion leads to you having more interest in what they have to teach.

In a practical subject like programming I think an IT is the way to go.

As for societies and things to do, it depends on the size of the IT, DKIT is quite small but it still has a large selection of socities from sports ones to music ones to gaming ones.

You can always start your own society if its not there too.

Malice

barry181091 wrote: »

Funny thing, My cousin is in 1st year doing that course He seems to like it except for the long breaks between classes. They started doing Java for this 1st year class instead of C++ before, so he doesn't know is that a good thing or not

I would have to like my course, I dislike secondary school enough already

What do you think of IT's compared to Uni's ? I know you probably can't comment too much on Uni's. The aspects of IT's that I see would bother me are:

- They are too much like Secondary School (Discipline etc).
- Have few societies and social aspects.

Now these are stereotypical 'features' of an IT but are they in anyway true ?

Barry.

Ps. Thanks for all the help

I think we're drifting way off-topic here. Remember that I finished college in 2001 so my experience might not bear any resemblance to the 2010 version. Regarding discipline I remember a lot of people being annoyed that attendance was taken at the beginning of each lecture. I think the attendance records were then taken into account when grading exams and also when giving out the grant. Another point about discipline is that in general everyone has chosen to study the subject so there shouldn't really be anyone in a class who's only there to act the twat.

As for societies, I didn't really get involved in any which with hindsight was a mistake but I did make some great friends among other members of my class.

As draffodx says, you can always create your own society if your interests aren't catered for.

Atomic Pineapple

Sorry for the additional off topic but they do still take roll call at certain stages during the day but this is for grant purposes and they are obliged to keep track of who's in.

Some lecturers attach some CA to attendance too, usually around 10%

legend365

I have a Bsc in Software Development and am currently doing a Bsc in Commerical Computing. In your opinion, would there be jobs in Ireland today for a graduate with such degrees?

What im trying to get at here is that everyone i speak to (lecturers, students) says if you want to get a job you must have a atleast a Msc.

Also, how hard was it to get your first IT job? My college offers no work experiance so i'll be a graduate with none

Malice

legend365 wrote: »

I have a Bsc in Software Development and am currently doing a Bsc in Commerical Computing. In your opinion, would there be jobs in Ireland today for a graduate with such degrees?

Not that it's any of my business so you don't have to answer but I'm curious as to why you're doing another degree rather than a Masters or a Phd. As for whether there are jobs, I'm sure there are but you may have to relocate. I had to move from Galway to Tralee for my current job for example.

legend365 wrote:

What im trying to get at here is that everyone i speak to (lecturers, students) says if you want to get a job you must have a atleast a Msc.

Having a Masters Degree won't hurt but I still remember that when I graduated, all I wanted to do was get out there and start working as I was pig sick of being a broke student!

legend365 wrote:

Also, how hard was it to get your first IT job? My college offers no work experiance so i'll be a graduate with none

How hard was it? I could write a very length rant on the subject but rather than bore you I'll just try and sum it up in one paragraph. I graduated in 2001 by which time the dot com bubble had well and truely burst. I was in a nasty chicken and egg situation where I couldn't get a job without having some experience but I couldn't get any experience without first getting a job.

To cut a long story short I worked various non-tech jobs while doing the occasional nixer for a few years. In 2006 I saw a job advertised in 2006 that I was suitable for, I applied and was fortunate to be taken on. Once I got my foot in the door I worked damn hard for a few months to make sure I was made permanent.

My college offered no work experience either and I wish I'd known more about open-source software at the time as that would have been a perfect opportunity. These days teams of developers can work together on something without even having to be on the same continent.

Having sat on the other side of the interview process, I'm always impressed with people who show initiative and are genuinely interested in learning and doing.

Pov06

I just wanted to say it's been an interesting experience reading your posts.

I'm a 5th year student and I'm thinking of doing the Computer Science course in UCD.

I'm pretty happy with the course and that and I feel pretty confident in doing the course itself.

I've been fiddling around with programming since 13 (I'm now 16) and I've done quite a few things. My first time developing was writing a simple .NET C# based program for Windows, which interacted to a PC game via UDP and displayed live information.

After playing around with .NET C# for 2+ years and making more advanced stuff like interacting with a game's server, saving/loading accounts in the MySQL database, I have moved onto HTML. HTML was pretty easy to learn and with HTML I also had to learn CSS which took me pretty much a day to cop on.

Now I'm into PHP and I have created a good few PHP systems like a game server status list (just shows IPs and Ports of game servers and displays if they are on or off, and how many players are online on them).

At the moment I'm recreating the .NET C# application that I made in PHP, but with a TCP socket and a more advanced game mod.

I've also messed around with Linux, like setting up a webhost or a game server.

I also have tried C++, but really it was difficult. When I tried to recreate the C# application, I had some class issues. It was really hard for me to understand that static classes in C++ don't work the way they do in C#, but that's a whole different thing.

I've also tried developing applications for Android using JAVA. It was easy enough but I didn't feel like I'm really into developing for mobile devices.

Now the real question is (if you don't mind me asking) how are the wages?

Do you earn at an hourly rate or a salary?

[PHP]<?php
echo "I look forward to your response.";
?>[/PHP]

Malice

Thanks for the questions Pov06. This thread is a bit of a blast from the past . Based on what you've written above I'd say you're well-set for a job in the industry once you've graduated. Just don't let college suck out all your obvious enthusiasm!

Pov06 wrote:

I also have tried C++, but really it was difficult. When I tried to recreate the C# application, I had some class issues. It was really hard for me to understand that static classes in C++ don't work the way they do in C#, but that's a whole different thing.

It'd be worth posting a question here and describing what went wrong.

Pov06 wrote:

Now the real question is (if you don't mind me asking) how are the wages?

Pov06 wrote:

Do you earn at an hourly rate or a salary?

I might as well answer both of these questions together as they are related. Since I last posted I've changed jobs twice. I left Tralee to move to Cork and finished up in Cork to move back to Galway. As for how the wages are, I earn more than I would flipping burgers or working on an assembly line . I'm based in Galway and from what I've been told working in Dublin allows you to command a higher salary due to the cost of living being higher in Dublin.

No developers that I know of would be on an hourly rate. I am salaried in my current job (in Galway) and I was salaried in the job in Tralee. That's a straightforward payment of your wages at a certain time each month. In the Cork job however I was a contractor. As a contractor you are not considered an employee of whatever company you are working for so you don't get holiday or sick pay, you have to sort out your own taxes and you don't have much long-term job security since the contract may only last for six months or even less. The plus point to this is that you earn a lot more money, over a couple of hundred euro per day depending on your negotiation skills.

Hope that helps and keep the questions coming!

the_syco

Just came across this forum now, so apologies for replying to an old thread.

Malice wrote: »

At my fourth year graduation there were 20. A lot of people seem to choose computers without realising what they are getting themselves in to.

Other people would probably recommend having a good knowledge of maths but I would say that being able to think logically is more important.

Failed a year of Computers Optical Communications and Networking (as did half the class). Found out that the maths in the electronics, programming, and physics subjects intertwined. I found that not fully understanding how the concepts of higher level maths worked went against me.

So although I liked the subject, as I didn't know how advanced the various subjects were, this went against me. Computers is not only about computers, but also about a lot of other things, and thus doing a degree in computers as you like computers may not be a good idea. Ended up doing another (more general) IT cert.

My point; as Malice has said, "people seem to choose computers without realising what they are getting themselves in to", so it's worth your while in seeing what your weaknesses are, and ensuring that the course doesn't depend on you having to use your weaknesses too much.

DominicKid

Do you have to study physics in leaving cert to do CS. As im terrified at physics of doing it and i love working with computers,

barry181091

DominicKid wrote: »

Do you have to study physics in leaving cert to do CS. As im terrified at physics of doing it and i love working with computers,

You don't. Im going into my third year now of the NUIG CS degree. Some degrees may require it and you may have a physics subject for a year but its nothing major. For us, we had to do Intro to physics in first year, which was basically the LC course. Will it ever help us in our career? Nope but they seem to want you to know the basics of everything

I will say this though, if you are atrocious at maths, you may have a hard time. At least with our course, they loaded in the Maths in the first two years.

djpbarry

DominicKid wrote: »

Do you have to study physics in leaving cert to do CS. As im terrified at physics of doing it and i love working with computers,

Physics would be of more advantage to you were you to study electronic engineering, for example. However, as said above, maths plays a pretty big role in computer science courses and you tend to get hit with it early (so that the weaker students are rooted out sooner rather than later). Investing the time studying in maths now will stand to you.

username123

Malice wrote: »

That's another interesting question . I'm using the term "Computer Programmer" whereas my job title and my degree both feature the term "Software Developer" so they essentially mean the same thing.

I think the term Software Engineer is often used to make a position sound more attractive than it actually is and also thrown about a lot by clueless HR people. I would envisage a Software Engineer might be slightly higher up the food chain in an organisation and be involved in more of the planning or management areas.

There can be a huge amount of silly snobbery about the term software engineer.

I am also a computer programmer/software engineer. What I take from the term software engineer is someone who has an academic background in computing of some description, and who can take a project right from requirements through design through programming through testing to finished product, possibly in a number of different of programming languages.

Whereas a computer programmer could be someone who picked up how to program in a specific language somewhere along the way but doesnt have the academic background to generalise from specifics.

In saying the above - I use the terms interchangably when referring to myself.

For what its worth, I had no interest in computers and went to college to study physics, but none of the graduating physicists were getting jobs and all the software engineers were - so I sort of fell into it because it made economic sense. This was in the mid 90s, and the situation for physicists in Ireland has steadily gone downhill since so I made the right decision!

Malice

DominicKid wrote: »

Do you have to study physics in leaving cert to do CS. As im terrified at physics of doing it and i love working with computers,

It probably depends on the course. In my case I didn't do Physics for the Leaving Cert and I don't think I was at a disadvantage.

DominicKid

Yeah im doing higher level maths for leaving cert but im doing biology instead of physics as many people in my year have difficulty in doing this subject. Also higher level physics seems unbelievably HARD! So i might as well just stick to HL Maths than doing physics for the LC?

djpbarry

DominicKid wrote: »

So i might as well just stick to HL Maths than doing physics for the LC?

I think you'll be fine with the maths, but if the difficulty factor is the only reason you're ruling out physics, then I would reconsider if I were you - it's not that difficult.

Fooree

How many days would Computer Programmers usually work?
Would they have a 5 day work and 2 days off?

Malice

Fooree wrote: »

How many days would Computer Programmers usually work?
Would they have a 5 day work and 2 days off?

I've usually worked a standard five Monday to Friday week. Some jobs have required additional hours though if a deadline is looming or if a software deployment has to be done outside of office hours. I have also occasionally had to attend conference calls at night e.g. around 9pm.

Fooree

Also, last question. How much would inexperienced and experienced programmers make annually? And would programming offer a secure job and flexibility? I know, I know that careers shouldn't be looked upon about money but one can't help but think about it :-P