Krav Maga in Dublin City

Baggio...

Baggio... wrote: »

Just how many systems have you seen then? I don't agree that KM is the best in Ireland by any means - But that's just my opinion.

What's the difference between KM and your class for example ?

Niall Keane

I think what annoys most proficient martial artists about the Krav jingle are the un-testable assertions (and how these assertions are aimed at promoting Krav at the expense of other arts, kinda what BJJ did at first, but at least the Gracies had the stones to follow up on the assertions):

That they are the best around in self defence, “from their opinion” of course. That this is due to military testing, a revolutionary Israeli military art, maybe I shouldn’t then mention that a very good friend of mine is a commander of the northern air force in Israel - Ravid Shay, who regularly flew behind enemy lines, and was trained to survive being shot down and tortured by his friendly neighbouring states, that his self defence system, hence we became friends is Practical Tai Chi Chuan. This would kinda mess up the myth a bit? You see not even all their top men believe in Krav.

That lads that could tear a typical Krav guy apart in seconds, you know trained and experienced full contact fighters with ring mileage, are just athletes and know nothing about self defence. ( Take my own style, we train for sanshou competitions to test ourselves, and have won countless international titles, but it doesn’t end there, we train sabre, sword and spear with equal intensity, so stand before a trained PTTCI man with a blade and he’ll probably have more experience than most, and be able to back all that up with ring craft such as faints and draws, positioning, angle, rhythm, timing etc. etc. etc., i.e. chances are they’ll f@*@ you up immediately) Dave Joyce spoke similarly about the broad nature of Muay Thai but this was dismissed ... foolish! What I’m saying here is just because an art is famous for its ring worthiness does not mean that it only practices for the ring, it just means that what is does has been tested and has not fallen short!

You see all true martial artists have actually tested their abilities, and know that there is no such thing as perfection in people or styles, or training methods, and they never make generalisations save that untested self defence is like practicing the backstroke in your bed as far as swimming goes. But this generalisation has been tested, every fighter knows what he was like when he knew nothing, remembers how difficult it was to get a technique and then how much greater the demand was to actually apply it under pressure. And being shouted at, running a gauntlet, or wearing a rubber suit is not pressure it’s a game. A wooden gun is a toy! Fighters know that ultimately proficiency it is up to the individual, and how hard he trains, and that although most styles express leanings to preferred methods hence “style” it is foolish to dismiss them just because one aspect of what they do does not conform to your own truths.

Really I am wasting my time writing this, those who know this already see it clearly, they’re probably shaking their heads wondering why I bothered, no point teaching a pig to sing, wastes your time and only annoys the pig and all, guess they’re right, experience comes with well... experience, all else is infantile fantasy.

Jason McCabe

marvelous post

Dave Joyce

Very well put Niall and definately not a waste of time saying it.

Baggio...

Niall Keane wrote: »

the broad nature of Muay Thai but this was dismissed ... foolish! What I’m saying here is just because an art is famous for its ring worthiness does not mean that it only practices for the ring, it just means that what is does has been tested and has not fallen short!

Very good post Niall and that's a great point too.

In all honesty, if I was a betting man, my cash would be on a M.T. guy way before someone that does K.M. - just look at the pressure testing, as opposed to the highly compliant training of KM.

cable842

I keep gettin emails from k m ireland. ah ah

Doug Cartel

cable842 wrote: »

I keep gettin emails from k m ireland. ah ah

They probably have some kind of automatic mailing list. Ask them to take you off. I doubt they're running a spam operation.

Ug Lee

Baggio... wrote: »

Very good post Niall and that's a great point too.

In all honesty, if I was a betting man, my cash would be on a M.T. guy way before someone that does K.M. - just look at the pressure testing, as opposed to the highly compliant training of KM.

I like you Rob so don't treat this as hostile.

But the same critera that you are using to judge Krav Maga (lack of pressure testing compared to Muay Thai) could also be used to judge the Urban Combatives that you teach.

Baggio...

Ug Lee wrote: »

I like you Rob so don't treat this as hostile.

No worries.... not at all mate.

Ug Lee wrote: »

But the same critera that you are using to judge Krav Maga (lack of pressure testing compared to Muay Thai) could also be used to judge the Urban Combatives that you teach.

It's a fair point you make and I agree with you 100%. I think everything should be "pressure tested" (within reasonable safety parameters of course) - that totally includes the stuff we do, and in fairness we all train with full contact (in class and on the instructors courses, etc). Lee pretty much has pared down everything, so you won't see any fine motor skills per se, if something doesn't work at full speed and contact it's binned.

Believe it or not I'm not having a pop at KM per se - I'm just pretty much just disagreeing with Entrepreneurs assessment of it being the best thing in Ireland for self-protection (and I'm not trying to sell UC or Combatives to anyone). In all honesty, and this is just my opinion, I've not been impressed with any Krav Maga as a system (what I've seen so far anyway). If I see something that comes along to change my mind I'll be the first one to give them praise and credit.

However what I would say is that I've seen some very talented KM instructors (especially some of the lads I met in the UK), who I've not doubt they could handle themselves. But more because they were just darn good athletes, naturally tough and train feckin' hard.

I firmly agree with Carl Cestari's assessment of "by rote combinations" (or specific defenses) they just don't work under duress. And unfortunately, from what I've seen, KM has far too many of them, and it relies on their use. The other thing I should mention is that I have little faith in any martial art that uses multiple specific defenses to deal with a live situation. So it's not me having a beef with KM. I did American Kenpo for years and I'd say the same thing. Ironically, someone said to Ed Parker that those techniques won't work in a real situation. Parker agreed, and pointed out that they were the "ABCs of motion" and used as tool. But given the fact that "action beats reaction" at close range then, you're starting off in a bad position.

In fairness I think Niall said it better than I could.

That's just my tuppence worth.

Cheers,

R.

Baggio...

I forgot to mention... Now as I'm getting old (nearly 40) my brain isn't what it used to be - I remember seeing a program about KM a while ago - might have been the human weapon can't quite remember now. I saw a few different KM instructors on it. Most of them were using specific defenses (or pretty martial artsy moves) which I was'nt mad on.

However, what I was pretty impressed with was the KM commando pressure testing (took place on a military base if I remember correctly). That looked like the right stuff, but there was nothing fancy or anything that resembled KM (from what I could compare it to anyway) - it was totally gross motor, but was getting the job done. Now, if I saw stuff like that being taught by the majority - I'd be impressed by KM.

I should point out that what I'm saying, I can't take any credit for it. Most of it comes from bigger and better people with a hell of a lot more experience than I'll ever have. A lot of people in the MA community, who don't use compliant training, may disagree the best way to get the job done, but they all have pretty much the same idea of what won't work to begin with.

What has been found to work under duress (increasing the probabilities as nothing can ever be guaranteed) is using something that "concept driven". Basically any material that uses the least amount of conscious thought as possible. Rather than having a bazillion ways to defend yourself against, a grab, punch or whatever (using fine motor skills techniques). Just have one principal - hold on of his limb while you start to continuously hit him. Nothing fancy or convoluted just "hold and hit" (full on gross motor ). That will take care of every frontal grab, weather it's a choke, one handed, two handed. As opposed to havening a defense for a one handed grab, then a different one for a two handed grab, another one for a wrist grab and so on.

I should also point out tho', that you wouldn't ever wait to be grabbed or punched by someone in the first place, you'd always seek to take a more "pro-active" approach. I think the 360 degree defense (or blocking) idea in KM is flawed too. As action beats reaction at close range. I've only ever seen this work with a compliant training partner. If that worked you'd see it used in the ring all the time, but you never do because it's too slow and they know it's coming!

ziodro

I was visiting couple of krav maga shools in Ireland, but if you are really interested in really krav maga training, no bull, no talk, bla bla bla bla, only training and practise, and ones again practise, so check www.kravmagagroup.ie, or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqmFnSAMxhM, report from "Toys for Big Boys". Students of Krav Maga Group are on this film.
The students are the best sample what kind of school are you going choose.

cletus

Tony Blauer, if I remeber, was offering instructor certification on the basis of a weekend course in adverts in Irish Fighter a number of years ago

OK, just checked out the website, he still does this. Personally, this does not inspire confidence in the system

spidey7

cletus wrote: »

Tony Blauer, if I remeber, was offering instructor certification on the basis of a weekend course in adverts in Irish Fighter a number of years ago

OK, just checked out the website, he still does this. Personally, this does not inspire confidence in the system

check it out before you cancel any perceived loss of inspiration!

i dont remember seeing any advert in irish fighter for this???
This stuff has been high end specialist training for years and is only open to the public very recently, also the 'instructor' course is 4 days with pre assignments, pre loading materials, post course assignments and lesson plan design.

again dont knock it til ya try it!!!:rolleyes:

cletus

you still only get 4 days training, right?

It would be like me training with Fergal Quinlan, and instead of having 3 nights a week training, I had one, and two nights homework

However, now that I think about it, it was possibly an English guy offering something similar in RBSD

I'm not dismissing Tony Blauer's personal ability here, as I know nothing of it. It just seems that, regardless of the homework you have to do, 4 days is not long enough to certify somebody to be an instructor.

Would you take driving lessons from a guy who only drove a car for 4 days, and spet 6 months reading books about driving?

Netherlands

Some great stuff here, I attended Patrick’s course (foundation level) and it was very good from my POV as a weekend warrior. Does anyone know where Patricks advanced courses are in Portbello and yes I have mailed him but no reply.

Thanks guys

obsydion

Netherlands wrote: »

Some great stuff here, I attended Patrick’s course (foundation level) and it was very good from my POV as a weekend warrior. Does anyone know where Patricks advanced courses are in Portbello and yes I have mailed him but no reply.

Thanks guys

Sorry to reanimate an old thread but the 12 week course starts tomorrow and I have had absolutely no proper response from Patrick and co. regarding location/venue and training times. I've tried email and I just get the automated responses, I left a few messages on the mobile but I got replies asking me to give him my email, which no doubt means I'll get more useless email propaganda. I want to just turn up and suss out what the deal is. Anyone have any idea where it is and what time???

tallaght01

obsydion wrote: »

Sorry to reanimate an old thread but the 12 week course starts tomorrow and I have had absolutely no proper response from Patrick and co. regarding location/venue and training times. I've tried email and I just get the automated responses, I left a few messages on the mobile but I got replies asking me to give him my email, which no doubt means I'll get more useless email propaganda. I want to just turn up and suss out what the deal is. Anyone have any idea where it is and what time???

Why beg to go to a school that doesn't reply to you? And why sign up for 12 weeks at the outset?

I don't know where you are, but if you want a very very tough training environment, with hard sparring, pop along to these guys:

www.kravmagagroup.ie


Or if you want an easier environment, where it will take you longer to become proficient, go for:

http://www.kmireland.com/index.php

Personally I think too many of the clubs represent the worst of KM in Ireland...ie the instructors were black belts in another style, and did a quick KM instructors course, and are now KM instructors (such as in the kmireland.com link above). I have a mate who' been training there for about a year, and hasn't sparred yet. No sparring = no use. So beware it's a slow progress.

There's hardly any KM instructors in Ireland who started KM as novices, which is, frankly, bull****.

obsydion

tallaght01 wrote: »

Why beg to go to a school that doesn't reply to you? And why sign up for 12 weeks at the outset?

I don't know where you are, but if you want a very very tough training environment, with hard sparring, pop along to these guys:

www.kravmagagroup.ie


Or if you want an easier environment, where it will take you longer to become proficient, go for:

http://www.kmireland.com/index.php

Personally I think too many of the clubs represent the worst of KM in Ireland...ie the instructors were black belts in another style, and did a quick KM instructors course, and are now KM instructors (such as in the kmireland.com link above). I have a mate who' been training there for about a year, and hasn't sparred yet. No sparring = no use. So beware it's a slow progress.

There's hardly any KM instructors in Ireland who started KM as novices, which is, frankly, bull****.

Thanks for knocking some sense into me there. I was always suspicious from the start with all the scare tactic propoganda and TV airtime this guy got. I'm sure he and his instructors offer a good programme but committing to 12 weeks is a bit much.

I'm actually in Ranelagh but work in the city centre. Obviously I would be up for the most authentic version, being the Krav Maga group but going out past St. James is too far for me as I don't have a car. Neither do I wish to commute that far after work and try to get back. Damnit I wish I had a car! I have a hunch as to where Krav Maga Ireland trains so I might just track them down after work and see what's the deal.

tallaght01

obsydion wrote: »

Thanks for knocking some sense into me there. I was always suspicious from the start with all the scare tactic propoganda and TV airtime this guy got. I'm sure he and his instructors offer a good programme but committing to 12 weeks is a bit much.

I'm actually in Ranelagh but work in the city centre. Obviously I would be up for the most authentic version, being the Krav Maga group but going out past St. James is too far for me as I don't have a car. Neither do I wish to commute that far after work and try to get back. Damnit I wish I had a car! I have a hunch as to where Krav Maga Ireland trains so I might just track them down after work and see what's the deal.

No worries mate. Locations for KM Ireland are here:

http://www.kmireland.com/our_locations.php

I'd suggest if you are doing KM for self defence and you find the club doesn't do any hard sparring, then take up an art alongside it that will get u actually sparring.

Despite what people will tell you, most KM clubs (well, IKMF clubs) don't train using compliant partners, and you shouldn't know what's coming at you. Last week, I couldn't get out of a chokehold and almost passed out, until I wriggled free :P But that's what should happen (not too early on, though!!). You've got to feel the problem, and you've got to practice working hard getting away from the problem. So make sure the senior students are training under real pressure.

But definitely make sure you get some sparring whether it's in your KM club or somewhere else.

But lots of people just enjoy KM without sparring as it's fun, a great aerobic workout, and you'll get used to striking and grappling.

Boston wrote: »

Just to be clear, I don't think any one said KM Ireland was a scam. I said I felt it was a mimic, but i doubt the chap takes your money and runs. Talking to a mate who did KM down by the liberties in Dublin, he said he paid 10 euro per session but had to pay it all in advance. I think Tallaght01 trained at the same club here

Just saw this. I never trained in that club, so couldn't comment on it.

obsydion

Ok there are more and more places popping up with this thread.
So there's http://www.kravmagaireland.com/, which was my original choice mainly because of location. But now there's kmireland.com as well.
When it comes down to it's going to be a location dependant choice.

Anyway, good points regarding sparring. I used to do Tae Kwon Do myself so I know the value of facing an opponent.

tallaght01

obsydion wrote: »

Ok there are more and more places popping up with this thread.
So there's http://www.kravmagaireland.com/, which was my original choice mainly because of location. But now there's kmireland.com as well.
When it comes down to it's going to be a location dependant choice.

Anyway, good points regarding sparring. I used to do Tae Kwon Do myself so I know the value of facing an opponent.

Well the kmireland guys are all TKD blackbelts, so you might have more in common with them.

You might also find out why they have the ITF logo all over their gym!!!!

http://picasaweb.google.com/krav.maga.academy.ireland/GradingUnderTamirGiladGlobalTeamMember#5498183922370352754

GeckoOnTheWall

Tallagh01,

do you think if this place is any good:

http://www.self-defence.ie/

Kravmagagroup is a bit too far for me.

Thanks

Jimmybourne

Sorry to re-start this thread. I`d just want to point out that KM ireland and Krav Maga ireland are two different krav groups. If you google them you will get two different websites {the first being krav-maga-ireland.com/kravmagaacadamey and the other is kravmagaireland.com} . I am with KM ireland which is part of the Krav Maga Global association. Which is very professionally run. Instructors MUST regrade in Israel at least every 18 months {but they tend to go annually}, student gradings {and seminars}are done by members of the KMG Instructors team who come from Israel and europe, these happen regularly through the year. There is no 12 week courses or quick fix weekends run either infact the idea of coming to the "odd" session is frowned upon. Tallaght01 pointed out about the lack of sparring , this depends on which instructor you work under or which location you go to and what stage you are at. I have trained with guys who also trained with kravmagagroup and kravmagaireland and they didnt have anything bad to say about them so im not going comment on them.
This does look like im plugging the club where i train but i just wanted to distinguish between the different clubs and clear up some unfair bashing.
Cheers guys.