Have the Dublin 30KPH Zone removed! E-mail this councillor

gurramok

ectoraige wrote: »

The only figures I've seen for the specific affected areas have come from Ciaran Cuffe, who reported there have been 9 deaths, 36 serious injuries, and over 400-hundred lesser injuries over the last six years in the affected area.

Is this propaganda?

6 years ago in Dublin, a bus killed 5 pedestrians at a bus stop on Wellington Quay when it went out of gear from a parking position.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0221/dublin.html

That's leaves 4 deaths and 24 serious injuries right there to debate, not 9 and 36 respectively.

Do we have to google how many of those 4 killed were cyclists/pedestrians run over by buses and trucks turning at junctions whilst doing a top speed of less than 10kph??
In 2005, a bus killed a woman pedestrian on O'Connell st, a 30kmph zone already.

Why not use the phrase 'in the last 5years' instead, we know you did not as you are misleading statistics to suit your argument.

BluePlanet

It's illegal to use your horn outside an emergency.
Most likely, such a protest will give ammunition to a campaign to have those horns banned.

Wolverine_1999

BluePlanet wrote: »

It's illegal to use your horn outside an emergency.
Most likely, such a protest will give ammunition to a campaign to have those horns banned.

Well, you could argue you are using your horn to warn other motorists to be aware of cyclists overtaking, people j-walking and a dangerously slow speed

listermint

this is what i received back

Hi Listermint,

I'm sorry that you disagree with me, but I do appreciate that you took the time to email me. It's always good for me to hear both sides of the argument, not just my own.

Every year on the Transport Committee of Dublin City Council we get reports which show where accidents and fatalities occur. Every year in Dublin, the area with the highest number of road deaths and serious injury is the city centre core area. Typically 2-3 people are killed in this small area every year and I want to reduce that. That is why I'm proposing this measure.

I understand that this will be frustrating for motorists, but in order to make it a bit easier we are setting up the traffic lights so that if you travel at 30kph you will won't hit any red lights if you are on the quays. This will actually mean that you will be able to get through the area faster than ever before. It might be frustrating to have to drive so slowly, but at least you will spend less time sitting at red lights.

The evidence from hundreds of 30kph zones in Europe and 20mph zones in the UK shows that death and serious injuries drop dramatically. In particular large numbers of children's lives are saved. And there are large numbers of schools in our city centre zone.

Time will tell how this proposal will work out, and we will be reviewing it to see how well it works. If we find that the scheme is not working, we will abandon it, but if it is working well, we will keep it.

Regards
Andrew

neutron

Some people have asked why having an incorrect speed limit for the type of road is a bad idea suggesting that a lower speed is safer, of course it is not as simple as that.

With inappropriate speed limits of 30kph and the increases in speed enforcement the benefit of driving a couple of miles per hour slower are completley removed by the reduced attention from the driver in general and of course the increased risk of driving blind while more speedometer checks are made.

The idiotic 30kph zone makes drivers less attentive to the road ahead. Their concentration is interrupted by frequently checking the speedometer, looking for Garda Gatso Cash vans or Gardai attempting to penalise motorists. The drivers attention level may also have dropped due to the lower speed.

A driver in the 30kph zone making a speedo check takes an average of 1 second. And of course because of the idiotic speed limit, drivers will check their speedometers more frequently. When the zone had a correct speed limit a driver perhaps made one speedometer check once every 60 seconds, the same driver now checks their speedometer every 15 seconds. The diverted attention risk is increased from 1 in 60 to a 1 in 15 risk that a speedometer check (with diverted attention) will coincide with an incident ahead of say e.g. a law breaking cyslist ignoring red traffic lights, a drunk pedestrian walking straight onto the road etc. Increased checking of the speedometer always delay the driver's response to these incidents, and I think it should be clear from everything above that the driver's response is the real key to avoiding collisions and reducing their severity in such scenarios

Email you local councillor now telling them you elected them and advise them of how you will vote in future unless the new 30kph zones are removed!

The address of the Traffic Commitee's spokesperson is here

andrewmontague@eircom.net

railwaylad

i get the train to heuston then the luas the bit of walking to my job im more fearful of push bikes than cars i find cars will ease off when im crossing the road but bikes dont. even when i have GREEN MAN the bikes dont stop.

Stevie Dakota

listermint wrote: »

this is what i received back

Hi Listermint,

I'm sorry that you disagree with me, but I do appreciate that you took the time to email me. It's always good for me to hear both sides of the argument, not just my own.

Every year on the Transport Committee of Dublin City Council we get reports which show where accidents and fatalities occur. Every year in Dublin, the area with the highest number of road deaths and serious injury is the city centre core area. Typically 2-3 people are killed in this small area every year and I want to reduce that. That is why I'm proposing this measure.

I understand that this will be frustrating for motorists, but in order to make it a bit easier we are setting up the traffic lights so that if you travel at 30kph you will won't hit any red lights if you are on the quays. This will actually mean that you will be able to get through the area faster than ever before. It might be frustrating to have to drive so slowly, but at least you will spend less time sitting at red lights.

The evidence from hundreds of 30kph zones in Europe and 20mph zones in the UK shows that death and serious injuries drop dramatically. In particular large numbers of children's lives are saved. And there are large numbers of schools in our city centre zone.

Time will tell how this proposal will work out, and we will be reviewing it to see how well it works. If we find that the scheme is not working, we will abandon it, but if it is working well, we will keep it.

Regards
Andrew

Got the same response, it would have helped if this information was put out there are the outset.

LostinBlanch

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Funny that, most of your posts are about cycling, leading one to suspect that you are a cyclist and not a motorist.

In what way does riding a bike preclude me from driving? Although I'll admit the last time I drove was all of 2 days ago. It seems to be a common misconception that cyclists don't also drive, the majority do.

monument

neutron wrote: »

With inappropriate speed limits of 30kph and the increases in speed enforcement the benefit of driving a couple of miles per hour slower are completley removed by the reduced attention from the driver in general and of course the increased risk of driving blind while more speedometer checks are made.

Research and the experience on the ground elsewhere in Europe does not support this.

neutron wrote: »

The idiotic 30kph zone makes drivers less attentive to the road ahead. Their concentration is interrupted by frequently checking the speedometer, looking for Garda Gatso Cash vans or Gardai attempting to penalise motorists. The drivers attention level may also have dropped due to the lower speed.

Try using that one in court.

A driver should be able to abided by speed limits safety or, really, they should not be driving.

neutron wrote: »

A driver in the 30kph zone making a speedo check takes an average of 1 second. And of course because of the idiotic speed limit, drivers will check their speedometers more frequently. When the zone had a correct speed limit a driver perhaps made one speedometer check once every 60 seconds, the same driver now checks their speedometer every 15 seconds. The diverted attention risk is increased from 1 in 60 to a 1 in 15 risk that a speedometer check (with diverted attention) will coincide with an incident ahead of say e.g. a law breaking cyslist ignoring red traffic lights, a drunk pedestrian walking straight onto the road etc. Increased checking of the speedometer always delay the driver's response to these incidents, and I think it should be clear from everything above that the driver's response is the real key to avoiding collisions and reducing their severity in such scenarios

This is not a very likely scenario.

Drivers can quickly adapt.

There's nothing "natural" about going at speed. Things like this are a part of learned behaviour. People adjust. And once more and more drivers adjust you'll know you're breaking the limit when you're passing people out. When more and more people adduct this has the affect of showing more and more people what speed to travel at.

neutron

neutron wrote: »

Some people have asked why having an incorrect speed limit for the type of road is a bad idea suggesting that a lower speed is safer, of course it is not as simple as that.

With inappropriate speed limits of 30kph and the increases in speed enforcement the benefit of driving a couple of miles per hour slower are completley removed by the reduced attention from the driver in general and of course the increased risk of driving blind while more speedometer checks are made.

The idiotic 30kph zone makes drivers less attentive to the road ahead. Their concentration is interrupted by frequently checking the speedometer, looking for Garda Gatso Cash vans or Gardai attempting to penalise motorists. The drivers attention level may also have dropped due to the lower speed.

A driver in the 30kph zone making a speedo check takes an average of 1 second. And of course because of the idiotic speed limit, drivers will check their speedometers more frequently. When the zone had a correct speed limit a driver perhaps made one speedometer check once every 60 seconds, the same driver now checks their speedometer every 15 seconds. The diverted attention risk is increased from 1 in 60 to a 1 in 15 risk that a speedometer check (with diverted attention) will coincide with an incident ahead of say e.g. a law breaking cyslist ignoring red traffic lights, a drunk pedestrian walking straight onto the road etc. Increased checking of the speedometer always delay the driver's response to these incidents, and I think it should be clear from everything above that the driver's response is the real key to avoiding collisions and reducing their severity in such scenarios

Email you local councillor now telling them you elected them and advise them of how you will vote in future unless the new 30kph zones are removed!

The address of the Traffic Commitee's spokesperson is here

andrewmontague@eircom.net

Why do lower speeds require more frequent speedometer checks? Perhaps initially until people get used to it. I can drive at 30kph no prob. I really don't get this whole "I'm not competent enough to drive at 30 so let me drive at 50 instead" argument that's being brought up frequently here.

zenno

well it sure looks like there will never be a driving experience in this country any more well especially dublin cork galway. the luxury of being able to drive a car at a reasonable speed is all but gone unfortunatly. and it will get worse especially in pothole ireland. more people have serious accidents falling and tripping over potholes than anything else. this is what you get when your very backward government gets their way and their reality is not like ours they live in a make believe world. i wonder what noel dempsey is going to do about immigrants still driving on the right side of the road, maybe nothing or he will have us all driving backwards because thats the way their brains work. it's plain and simple it's all about money. just like this made up man made global warming what a pile of s hite. no wonder ireland is slagged off constantly as being a backward country. control of the people and bleed them dry as FF say.

BluePlanet

neutron wrote: »

The idiotic 30kph zone makes drivers less attentive to the road ahead. Their concentration is interrupted by frequently checking the speedometer, looking for Garda Gatso Cash vans or Gardai attempting to penalise motorists. The drivers attention level may also have dropped due to the lower speed.

One slight problem with your theory is that it is contradicted by evidence.
Places that have reduced the speed limits in high-density areas have experienced reduced accidents.

BluePlanet

BluePlanet wrote: »

One slight problem with your theory is that it is contradicted by evidence.
Places that have reduced the speed limits in high-density areas have experienced reduced accidents.

Yes, these people seem to be absolutley intent on ignoring the large volume of good, peer reviewed evidence out there and opting to put forward their own hypotheses instead, based on nothing but an inability to admit defeat when all evidence contradicts their own view point.

Here is some of that evidence:

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/320/7243/1160?ijkey=932d4acb279e4655475bf67d1230dc315614379a&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/4/2/103.abstract

thecretinhop

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/capitals-speed-limit-to-become-urban-standard-2042099.html

ffs:mad: rumble strips all over the shop in a year or two id say

maggy_thatcher

Deleted User wrote: »

Why do lower speeds require more frequent speedometer checks? Perhaps initially until people get used to it. I can drive at 30kph no prob. I really don't get this whole "I'm not competent enough to drive at 30 so let me drive at 50 instead" argument that's being brought up frequently here.

If the speed of a vehicle with no feet on the pedals in 1st or 2nd gear is above 30km/h, then it's going to require much more frequent speedometer checks to make sure you don't accidentally drift above the limit (as well as increasing wear on the clutch and brake by continuously holding the car below its natural minimum speed).

dobkfz

whats going to happen when speed checks go private..
look at the behavior of the clampers,,,, 33 in a 30 maybe !!

LostinBlanch

Just listening to that Muppet Cuffe on The Right Hook called on the safety aspects then he starts saying he doesn't want to concentrate on safety. Then he goes on about kids playing video games!

seamus

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

If the speed of a vehicle with no feet on the pedals in 1st or 2nd gear is above 30km/h, then it's going to require much more frequent speedometer checks to make sure you don't accidentally drift above the limit (as well as increasing wear on the clutch and brake by continuously holding the car below its natural minimum speed).

You'd swear 30km/h was walking speed. No normal car has a "natural minimum speed" above 30km/h. Show me a car that does 30km/h when you lift off the clutch in first (or even second), on the flat, and apply no acceleration.

maggy_thatcher

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

If the speed of a vehicle with no feet on the pedals in 1st or 2nd gear is above 30km/h, then it's going to require much more frequent speedometer checks to make sure you don't accidentally drift above the limit (as well as increasing wear on the clutch and brake by continuously holding the car below its natural minimum speed).

I don't think there's that many cars that go over 30kph with the engine at idle speed while in 1st gear, or 2nd gear either for that matter, unless we're talkin about a Bugatti Veyron or some such.

Wolverine_1999

"I think we have to change the way we think. We need to prioritise pedestrianisation, cycling and the use of public transport. We have to get people out of the car."

If they haven't realised.. a huge majority of the population of the country actually live in the COUNTRY. How will they make it to the city in the first place with the sh*t in place that Ireland calls "public transport".

I'm sorry, but this country is run by a pack of f*c*** idiots

ectoraige

gurramok wrote: »

Is this propaganda?

6 years ago in Dublin, a bus killed 5 pedestrians at a bus stop on Wellington Quay when it went out of gear from a parking position.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0221/dublin.html

That's leaves 4 deaths and 24 serious injuries right there to debate, not 9 and 36 respectively.

Do we have to google how many of those 4 killed were cyclists/pedestrians run over by buses and trucks turning at junctions whilst doing a top speed of less than 10kph??
In 2005, a bus killed a woman pedestrian on O'Connell st, a 30kmph zone already.

Why not use the phrase 'in the last 5years' instead, we know you did not as you are misleading statistics to suit your argument.

No, this is not propaganda. I gave the only figures I had, which were from Ciarán Cuffes' blog, where he wrote

in figures that I've seen, nine people lost their lives within the 30 kph area in traffic accidents since 2003, over thirty-six were seriously injured, and over four hundred suffered minor injuries.

That's why I said six years; I'm not following any agenda. I didn't have any analysis of the causes of the accidents, and I never suggested I did. For you to come out and accuse me of misrepresenting statistics to advance my argument is puerile, and is attacking the messenger, not the message. It's also shows poor comprehension skills, try reading a little slower. If you want to know why Ciarán Cuffe said 6 years, go ask him.

However it if was to make the rates seem higher, from what listermint posted, Cuffes figures are a lower reported number, so that undermines that. Andrew Montague is claiming that there are typically 2-3 fatalaties in the area per year. That is much higher than the number Ciarán Cuffe gave (and that I then reported). I would expect the DCC Transport committee has the more reliable figures, than Cuffe, but it would be useful if they were published. The only published figures I have seen are the RSA ones which are for all of Dublin City.

What I have consistently advanced is the fact that these measures have led to drastic reductions in the total casualties. I never provided any qualification that this only reduces specific types of accidents. For all I know it has no effect on truck/cyclist collisions, or perhaps it does reduce these too just as a result of a calmer overall environment. What I do know, is that this result has been observed in city after city. I should note too that in some cities the gain was eroded following poor enforcement.

I have no agenda, the first I heard of this was in an article earlier in the year, and I gave it no more thought until the brouhaha from people can't afford a few minutes in their day as they need it to post angry messages on the Internet.

galwaytt

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, these people seem to be absolutley intent on ignoring the large volume of good, peer reviewed evidence out there and opting to put forward their own hypotheses instead, based on nothing but an inability to admit defeat when all evidence contradicts their own view point.

Here is some of that evidence:

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/320/7243/1160?ijkey=932d4acb279e4655475bf67d1230dc315614379a&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

Pardon my french, but that report is bollox, and I'm going to quote you it's own words, the same very ones the likes of the RSA use in their blurb, hoping no-one will notice the difference. Or did English in school......

inappropriate and excessive speed

..for the umpteenth time - that phrase makes NO reference to any speed limit, whether of 20/30/100 mph.........

Common sense dictates you drive more slowly in some places, over others. Schools, shopping precincts, etc........

But a blanket 18mph outside St Jame's Gate at 22:30hrs is not one of them, and is entirely indicative of vindictive and conceited revenue-grabbing, at the motorist's expense.

Taken to it's ultimate conclusion though, and when the traffic is either gone, or slowed down to sub-cycling speed.........where are they going to get their cash, then...??? Roll on the day........

buffalo

neutron wrote: »

The idiotic 30kph zone makes drivers less attentive to the road ahead. Their concentration is interrupted by frequently checking the speedometer, looking for Garda Gatso Cash vans or Gardai attempting to penalise motorists. The drivers attention level may also have dropped due to the lower speed.

So motorists are checking that they're obeying the speed limit and checking for Gardaí who are looking to catch them out? I'd suggest that a driver would do one or the other, not both.

seamus

galwaytt wrote: »

But a blanket 18mph outside St Jame's Gate at 22:30hrs is not one of them, and is entirely indicative of vindictive and conceited revenue-grabbing, at the motorist's expense.

Just to clarify for everyone, this speed limit extends nowhere near St. James's Gate.

See this map for details on details of just how tiny an area is affected by this.

maggy_thatcher

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think there's that many cars that go over 30kph with the engine at idle speed while in 1st gear, or 2nd gear either for that matter, unless we're talkin about a Bugatti Veyron or some such.

From the Irish times:

Not among the least is that a diesel engine car can “tick over” at speeds in excess of 30km/h without the driver pressing the accelerator at all.

It didn't mention what gear they were in though.

BluePlanet

thecretinhop wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/capitals-speed-limit-to-become-urban-standard-2042099.html

ffs:mad: rumble strips all over the shop in a year or two id say

FFS that's some poor reading skillz there mate.

From your own article:

Dublin City Council said it did not expect to introduce rumble strips or other measures at the moment.

?Cee?view

galwaytt wrote: »

...I love the Day of 10kph Protest idea...........!

Btw, re Noel Dempsey.........didn't he just get points and a fine for 40+kph over the limit AND no driving licence ?

He's not the only holder of office, incl Transport, who's been found to NOT have a driving licence..........

...like, would you go to a Dentist who didn't have a licence to practice.......??


oh, here's what I emailed in to complain .....

Your email to Dempsey is excellently put. Very well done.

ectoraige

neutron wrote: »

A driver in the 30kph zone making a speedo check takes an average of 1 second. And of course because of the idiotic speed limit, drivers will check their speedometers more frequently. When the zone had a correct speed limit a driver perhaps made one speedometer check once every 60 seconds, the same driver now checks their speedometer every 15 seconds. The diverted attention risk is increased from 1 in 60 to a 1 in 15 risk that a speedometer check (with diverted attention) will coincide with an incident ahead of say e.g. a law breaking cyslist ignoring red traffic lights, a drunk pedestrian walking straight onto the road etc. Increased checking of the speedometer always delay the driver's response to these incidents, and I think it should be clear from everything above that the driver's response is the real key to avoiding collisions and reducing their severity in such scenarios

In that 1 second spent looking at the speedometer, you will have travelled 13.9 metres driving at 50kph, or 8.3 metres driving at 30kph. It's irrelevant anyway, any competant driver will acclimitise to the new limit quickly.

zenno wrote: »

well it sure looks like there will never be a driving experience in this country any more well especially dublin cork galway. the luxury of being able to drive a car at a reasonable speed is all but gone unfortunatly. and it will get worse especially in pothole ireland.

If you want a "driving experience", city centres are the wrong place to go.

galwaytt wrote: »

Pardon my french, but that report is bollox, and I'm going to quote you it's own words, the same very ones the likes of the RSA use in their blurb, hoping no-one will notice the difference. Or did English in school......

inappropriate and excessive speed

..for the umpteenth time - that phrase makes NO reference to any speed limit, whether of 20/30/100 mph.........

Common sense dictates you drive more slowly in some places, over others. Schools, shopping precincts, etc........

Actually, the speed limits are set according to what is considered appropriate in clear traffic. Anything over this therefore is "excessive". Now the argument here of course is "what speed actually is excessive", but for the purposes of the report, that term is quite understandable, as it is referencing the set limits. The act of declaring the speed limit, also defines what is excessive.

monument

seamus wrote: »

Just to clarify for everyone, this speed limit extends nowhere near St. James's Gate.

See this map for details on details of just how tiny an area is affected by this.

This is a newer map just of the city centre released today:

http://www.dublincity.ie/RoadsandTraffic/RoadSafety/Documents/3369%20_04%20Sept%2009%20City%20Centre%2030%20kph%20zone.pdf

?Cee?view

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think there's that many cars that go over 30kph with the engine at idle speed while in 1st gear, or 2nd gear either for that matter, unless we're talkin about a Bugatti Veyron or some such.

Absolute utter rubbish. If it didn't involve having to meet with you, I'd invite you to drive my car some day at this new limit...and it'd no Veyron. Granted it's not a 1.2 litre s**tbox, but I'm fully entitled to drive whatever I like even if my CO2 emissions are probably considered by some to be killing baby seals or some such. I have severe difficulty maintaining 30kmh in 2nd. My clutch will likely wear much more quickly due to this.

blorg

churchview wrote: »

Absolute utter rubbish. If it didn't involve having to meet with you, I'd invite you to drive my car some day at this new limit...and it'd no Veyron. Granted it's not a 1.2 litre s**tbox, but I'm fully entitled to drive whatever I like even if my CO2 emissions are probably considered by some to be killing baby seals or some such. I have severe difficulty maintaining 30kmh in 2nd. My clutch will likely wear much more quickly due to this.

How do you drive in heavy traffic then?

Patser

monument wrote: »

This is a newer map just of the city centre released today:

http://www.dublincity.ie/RoadsandTraffic/RoadSafety/Documents/3369%20_04%20Sept%2009%20City%20Centre%2030%20kph%20zone.pdf

Interesting, that is a much much better map than originally printed. And it now seems that Church St and Gardiner St are not included in the 30kmh zone. It is confusing as all print versions state the zone runs from Church St to Gardiner St. This map should now be printed by the Council in full page advertising in newspapers to clarify where the limits exist.

Also the need to clear up the messages on the Electronis signs around the city. Heading in yesterday evening the large electronic sign where the Con Colbert road meets John's Road west (down towards Hueston) was declaring 'Be aware of new speed limits in City Centre' (fair enough), then it siad in small writing 'Watch for signs' above a large. colour image of a 30 speed sign. Of course this confused anyone not fully aware of where the limits were, so people were slowing to a crawl immediately and all along the full lenght of the Quays.

Edit: Hope you dont mind if I quote you over in the Commuting and Transport section, that map is much much better.

?Cee?view

blorg wrote: »

How do you drive in heavy traffic then?

:rolleyes:

That involves stopping and starting, not trying to maintain an artifically slow speed with the risk/temptation of slipping the clutch. Obviously, when stopping and starting, a properly trained driver won't slip the clutch (unless of course they're driving a motorbike, but that's a completely different story).

churchview

churchview wrote: »

I have severe difficulty maintaining 30kmh in 2nd. My clutch will likely wear much more quickly due to this.

Change down to 1st then?

?Cee?view

Deleted User wrote: »

Change down to 1st then?

Ever hear of overheating?

churchview

churchview wrote: »

Ever hear of overheating?

Ever hear of electric radiator fans? Are you seriously trying to tell me that your engine will overheat if you try and maintain 30kph? If that were the case surely half of Dublin would be enveloped in a cloud of steam at rush hour seeing as average speeds then are as low as 11kph.

Thinkingaboutit

I cannot for a moment comprehend how this limit could be justified at, say, 3.00am during a week day. It is a foolish measure anyhow, which will annoy many and increase disrespect for the law.

Good at least that there are some Councillors with basic common sense like Mary Frehill.

At rush hour most people are limited to less than 30 km/h, but to have 24/7 just defies comprehension.

This will ruin city commerce if it's enforced, wreck the livelihoods of taxi drivers, van and motorbike couriers. A lot of retailers are teetering at this point. This will be the end for them if this measure isn't cancelled.

Maybe we should ride Honda Zoomer scooters around, their top speed is 40 something km/h.

ectoraige

Mary Freehill wrote: »

not sure what I should do, I am just trying to reply to the issue of the speed limit

I am a councillor who voted against the 30kph. Got agreement to-night that it will be reviewed. Is it permissable to put this type of message?

Can I ask, is this review in addition to the six month review which was agreed to last October when these measures were adopted?

zynaps

neutron wrote: »

I would also suggest that you advise him of the lack of the law being applied to the all day breaking of red traffic lights throughout Dublin city by law breaking cyclists and request measures be put in place before more pedestrians are injured or killed by cyclists.

Before more pedestrians are injured/killed by cyclists? How many is that then? Do you have stats to back up your implication that a significant number of pedestrians are injured or killed by cyclists, compared to pedestrians injured or killed by cars? If so, I'd like to see them. If not, well then you shouldn't say things like that.

Shane732 wrote: »

I’ve heard Andrew arguing that there isn’t enough room to build dedicated cycle lanes around the city centre so it’s necessary to slow traffic down. Westmoreland Street is within the new zone. Exactly what size cycle lanes does this guy want to build?

What would be the point of putting a cycling lane in Westmoreland Street, with all the buses stopping there? It's tough for cyclists as it is - a cycle lane which buses are crossing/stopping in non-stop would only confuse matters even more.

?Cee?view

Deleted User wrote: »

Ever hear of electric radiator fans? Are you seriously trying to tell me that your engine will overheat if you try and maintain 30kph? If that were the case surely half of Dublin would be enveloped in a cloud of steam at rush hour seeing as average speeds then are as low as 11kph.

So your suggestion is that it makes sense for drivers to drive around Dublin in 1st gear?

The Greens will love that!

Considering that the NCT tests emmission levels at 2500 rpm, maybe that should be revised to the rpm level that a car needs to be at in 1st gear to travel at 30kmh if we're going to be driving around our Capital in such a fashion?

The racket of cars travelling everywhere in first will also be an additional wonderful bonus as jaywalking pedestrians will be in a wonderful position to hear noisy engines maintaining 30kmh in 1st; so it's a safety win as well:)

Oh, and of course, proposals will have to be drawn up to ban automatics which hunt from first to second as they try to maintain a steady 30kmh.;)

Jumpy

neutron wrote: »

Some people have asked why having an incorrect speed limit for the type of road is a bad idea suggesting that a lower speed is safer, of course it is not as simple as that.

With inappropriate speed limits of 30kph and the increases in speed enforcement the benefit of driving a couple of miles per hour slower are completley removed by the reduced attention from the driver in general and of course the increased risk of driving blind while more speedometer checks are made.

The idiotic 30kph zone makes drivers less attentive to the road ahead. Their concentration is interrupted by frequently checking the speedometer, looking for Garda Gatso Cash vans or Gardai attempting to penalise motorists. The drivers attention level may also have dropped due to the lower speed.

A driver in the 30kph zone making a speedo check takes an average of 1 second. And of course because of the idiotic speed limit, drivers will check their speedometers more frequently. When the zone had a correct speed limit a driver perhaps made one speedometer check once every 60 seconds, the same driver now checks their speedometer every 15 seconds. The diverted attention risk is increased from 1 in 60 to a 1 in 15 risk that a speedometer check (with diverted attention) will coincide with an incident ahead of say e.g. a law breaking cyslist ignoring red traffic lights, a drunk pedestrian walking straight onto the road etc. Increased checking of the speedometer always delay the driver's response to these incidents, and I think it should be clear from everything above that the driver's response is the real key to avoiding collisions and reducing their severity in such scenarios

Email you local councillor now telling them you elected them and advise them of how you will vote in future unless the new 30kph zones are removed!

The address of the Traffic Commitee's spokesperson is here

andrewmontague@eircom.net

That is one of the biggest loads of bull**** I have ever read on boards.

ectoraige

Thinkingaboutit wrote: »

I cannot for a moment comprehend how this limit could be justified at, say, 3.00am during a week day. It is a foolish measure anyhow, which will annoy many and increase disrespect for the law.

Good at least that there are some Councillors with basic common sense like Mary Frehill.

At rush hour most people are limited to less than 30 km/h, but to have 24/7 just defies comprehension.

More accidents occur in darkness hours than in daylight due to reduced visibility.

zynaps

Bluetonic wrote: »

The majority of people couldn't care less about the 30kph zone one way or the other so it will have little effect at the local elections.

It would be more accurate to say that the majority of people that do care about the 30kph zone would never be bothered to find out who made it happen and change their voting habits. People usually seem to vote based on who they (and their family and friends) vote for, rather than anything to do with the individual politicians and their policies.

neutron

zynaps wrote: »

It would be more accurate to say that the majority of people that do care about the 30kph zone would never be bothered to find out who made it happen and change their voting habits. People usually seem to vote based on who they (and their family and friends) vote for, rather than anything to do with the individual politicians and their policies.

On the contrary, the opposition is already using the extended 30kph zone as a stick to beat them with. If you do not believe me have a word with a friendly FF councillor or TD

churchview

churchview wrote: »

So your suggestion is that it makes sense for drivers to drive around Dublin in 1st gear?

The Greens will love that!

Considering that the NCT tests emmission levels at 2500 rpm, maybe that should be revised to the rpm level that a car needs to be at in 1st gear to travel at 30kmh if we're going to be driving around our Capital in such a fashion?

The racket of cars travelling everywhere in first will also be an additional wonderful bonus as jaywalking pedestrians will be in a wonderful position to hear noisy engines maintaining 30kmh in 1st; so it's a safety win as well:)

Oh, and of course, proposals will have to be drawn up to ban automatics which hunt from first to second as they try to maintain a steady 30kmh.;)

So your car is near idle at 30kph in 2nd, but you're over 2500 rpm at the same speed in 1st? Does your car only have 2 gears or something? How do all those europeans manage to obey their 30kph limits without their engines exploding? How do people drive around car parks looking for a space without their engines exploding? How do people drive behind tractors or other slow moving vehicles without their engines exploding? How did people drive around at slow speed in the snow and ice without their engines exploding?

Whatever about the public safety vs motorists convenience argument, this whole "my car is incapable of driving at 30kph" is absolute, complete and utter rubbish.

neutron

Jumpy wrote: »

That is one of the biggest loads of bull**** I have ever read on boards.

Please do not take my word for it, it is in official european government reports.

More recent reports highlight how talking on your mobile has a similar effect, but maybe you think doing so is not a problem as well?

neutron

neutron wrote: »

Please do not take my word for it, it is in official european government reports.

More recent reports highlight how talking on your mobile has a similar effect, but maybe you think doing so is not a problem as well?

link?

?Cee?view

Deleted User wrote: »

So your car is near idle at 30kph in 2nd, but you're over 2500 rpm at the same speed in 1st? Does your car only have 2 gears or something? How do all those europeans manage to obey their 30kph limits without their engines exploding? How do people drive around car parks looking for a space without their engines exploding? How do people drive behind tractors or other slow moving vehicles without their engines exploding? How did people drive around at slow speed in the snow and ice without their engines exploding?

Whatever about the public safety vs motorists convenience argument, this whole "my car is incapable of driving at 30kph" is absolute, complete and utter rubbish.

I don't think anyone here said that their car was incapable of driving at 30kmh. Rather, people pointed out how it can be difficult, lead to more wear and tear, lead to higher emissions, compromise safety etc. etc.

And please don't imply that I said

"my car is incapable of driving at 30kph"

by including that statement in inverted commas when referring to a post of mine. I never said that.

?Cee?view

Deleted User wrote: »

...public safety vs motorists...

Since when is public safety opposed to the interests of motorists?

Jumpy

neutron wrote: »

Please do not take my word for it, it is in official european government reports.

More recent reports highlight how talking on your mobile has a similar effect, but maybe you think doing so is not a problem as well?

You are linking speedo checking as the same danger as mobile phone use? Scratch my previous comment, this one wins by a mile.

Funny how I can manage to keep an eye on my speed and road in front of me without looking down.
Dare I ask you to review peripheral vision? Its a handy thing to have, and it comes built in to humans.

I second the request for documentation on this claim by the way.