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ESRI and Competition Authority responsible for banking regulation..
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So farming should be non profit now, what a pity you weren't on frontline would have loved to hear the reaction to that LOLyou idea of "tweaking" involves telling retailers what to do and what not to do
the same retailers can just turn around and say "**** it its not worth the hassle"
my idea involves becoming the retailer, and letting the customers vote with their feet
how do non for profits operate?
maximizing profit doesn't have to mean maximizing $€£ being made, it could also mean maximizing the wellbeing of its shareholders (the farmers)
thats the whole concept behind co-ops
But seriously we have a serious flaw in the current sytem which will cause many farmers to go out of business unless something is done. You believe the market will correct itself, I believe we will just end up importing produce and another country gets the benefit at the cost of thousands of jobs here.
Doubt we are going to get agreement on this0 -
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I don't know what price they sell it for so I don't know if the premise of your question is correct. Do you?do they sell the milk at 40 cent a litre? we heard it costs 30 to produce last night
if they are selling the milk at same rate as supermarkets, then the obvious question is why?
Yes they are because there is nothing stopping the supermarkets buying milk from abroad, is there? When supermarkets control 80% of the sales of food, they have a lot of power. It's like a monopoly.are the supermarkets holding a gun to farmers heads,
once any contracts run out whats stopping a farmer from selling 70% of milk to the before mentioned Fairness for Farmers (FF) CO-op/Plc/Ltd and 30% to supermarkets?
What impact do monopolies normally have on competition? They stifle it, no?then band together and create the economies of scale
not like it hasnt been done before in this country
When co-ops get too big for Tesco, they are simply brushed aside:
http://www.fingal-independent.ie/news/65-staff-laid-off-as-tesco-pull-contract-exclusive-1667251.html
This doesn't make sense. THe point I was making is that the price is almost always higher in farmers markets because the farmers make a profit.spot the difference?
yes, possibly outside Ireland - is that a good idea?by becoming so big that the supermarkets would either have to listen to them or buy their milk elsewehre
You see, food is different because you can import tomatoes more easily than you can import workersthat exactly the same concept as Trade Unions operate on, one worker doesnt have much say, but a group of workers can hold a country ransom 0 -
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So farming should be non profit now, what a pity you weren't on frontline would have loved to hear the reaction to that LOL
did i say that? :rolleyes:
a question was asked whether a business has to operate on the principle of earning $$$, it doesnt as profit doesn't have to monetary
anyways theres certainly alot of profit to be made in Co-ops, the ones here in Ireland arent exactly loss making enterprises are they?
the serious flaw in the current system are the farmers who are failing to grasp a huge opportunity to better themselvesBut seriously we have a serious flaw in the current sytem which will cause many farmers to go out of business unless something is done. You believe the market will correct itself
thats called competition, if you cant compete you die in businessI believe we will just end up importing produce and another country gets the benefit at the cost of thousands of jobs here.
what you propose involves forcing the retailers and the consumers to pay a certain fixed amount because the farmers are entitled to it, that will just end in tears altogether
actually it be interesting that your ideas do go thru just to see how the whole thing ends up hurting both farmers and consumers0 -
my premise is simple, heres an opportunity (the markets) for farmers to sell the produce for cheaper than supermarkets and hence attract customers, why dont they?I don't know what price they sell it for so I don't know if the premise of your question is correct. Do you?
like that guy on primetime said last night "we may as well drop out of EU now, put up trade barriers and call DeValera back"Yes they are because there is nothing stopping the supermarkets buying milk from abroad, is there? When supermarkets control 80% of the sales of food, they have a lot of power. It's like a monopoly.
if this Fairness for Farmers (FF) Co-op can setup a chain of stores across country and supply chain where they can sell milk for cheaper than supermarkets, the people will flock to these stores and buy the cheaper local produce, dont you agree?
if the farmers (the farmers association is one powerful lobby force) think we have a case of monopoly in Ireland they can bring the matter to EU, who are quite good at breaking up monopolies (see microsoft and intel)
What impact do monopolies normally have on competition? They stifle it, no?
When co-ops get too big for Tesco, they are simply brushed aside:
http://www.fingal-independent.ie/news/65-staff-laid-off-as-tesco-pull-contract-exclusive-1667251.html
This doesn't make sense. THe point I was making is that the price is almost always higher in farmers markets because the farmers make a profit.
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if it costs 30 cent to make a liter and supermarkets sell it for 90 cent, then why cant farmers sell it for 80 cent, making a profit and undercutting the supermarket?
by doing that the supermarkets will only hurt themselvesyes, possibly outside Ireland - is that a good idea?
lets say supermarkets choose to buy from abroad and continue to sell milk (British lets say) at 90c a liter
while the local Fairness for Farmers (FF) Co-op chain shop sell a liter for 80c of Guaranteed Irish milk
where do you think people will buy their milk?You see, food is different because you can import tomatoes more easily than you can import workers
funny that you say that, theres alot of "imported" workers working on our farms0 -
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Because it won't be cheaper! That's the point. The food in supermarkets is too cheap, it's below the cost of production. Food sold by farmers is not and would not be cheaper than it is in supermarkets now.if this Fairness for Farmers (FF) Co-op can setup a chain of stores across country and supply chain where they can sell milk for cheaper than supermarkets, the people will flock to these stores and buy the cheaper local produce, dont you agree?
Yes, I think they should. And I would support the creation of an ombdusman.if the farmers (the farmers association is one powerful lobby force) think we have a case of monopoly in Ireland they can bring the matter to EU, who are quite good at breaking up monopolies (see microsoft and intel)
OK look, do you understand how Tesco operates? It has access to massive economies of scale and capital and can keep supermarkets open that do not turn a profit for a long time just to build up a market. Farmers and co-ops will not have access to the same tools.if it costs 30 cent to make a liter and supermarkets sell it for 90 cent, then why can farmers sell it for 80 cent, making a profit and undercutting the supermarket?
Why? As it is there are thousands of imported products on the shelves of Irish supermarkets.by doing that the supermarkets will only hurt themselves
Because Tesco will bring down their prices to under that of the co-op. That is how Tesco operates. It's not as if this has gone unnoticed. There's even a website about it:lets say supermarkets choose to buy from abroad and continue to sell milk (British lets say) at 90c a liter
while the local Fairness for Farmers (FF) Co-op chain shop sell a liter for 80c of Guaranteed Irish milk
where do you think people will buy their milk?
http://www.tescopoly.org/
I don't blame them. Who in god's name would slave over an Irish farm for €16,000 a year?! My point stands about the difference between people and potatoesfunny that you say that, theres alot of "imported" workers working on our farms 0 -
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Of course you didn't say that i was joking.Of course you didn't say that i was joking.
How exactly will being paid a fair price hurt farmers. The producers have massive retained profits even after paying their dividends. I know they are in business to make profit
yes they are in it to make profit and maximizing returns to their shareholders
and hence why I proposed that the farmers also go into this business setting up a co-op or a series of co-ops maximizing the profit for the farmers
instead of sitting around on pat kenny moaning about fairness they can be running very successful businesses selling direct to consumers
the direct approach worked out rather well for the likes of Dell, and once again the Co-op approach has worked in this country helping the co-op memberswould you like to see all our food being imported, that is what will happen and when it does the price will go up because we can't supply it locally. Killing our agri-industry won't end in tears?
not at all i always check labels in shop to see where the food is from
see my post before, supermarkets would be daft to start importing the likes of milk, potato and meats from outside Ireland
simply because most people would opt instead to buy this produce elsewhere
the supermarkets are exploiting the fact that farmers are a fragmented group and playing farmers against each other, hence why they workers farmers of Ireland should unite in a Farmers Union Co-op and hold the country ransom :eek: 0 -
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We have lamb from New Zealand and potatoes from Israel in our shops so it is already commonplace, both products we produce in abundance here. Your idea is very interesting but the major retailers would crush it before it ever got off the ground by ruthlessly undercutting it, as they can always import and would not be held to ransom by anybody. An awful lot of our produce goes to export through our food companies (who are extremely profitable), so it is not all about retailing either. Many farmers simply could not afford to withold their produce for reasons I outlined in an earlier post, and they are being held over a barrel with regards prices. It is a very complex issue and its not as easy as saying lets start our own co-op and bully these extremely powerful multinational companies.
yes they are in it to make profit and maximizing returns to their shareholders
and hence why I proposed that the farmers also go into this business setting up a co-op or a series of co-ops maximizing the profit for the farmers
instead of sitting around on pat kenny moaning about fairness they can be running very successful businesses selling direct to consumers
the direct approach worked out rather well for the likes of Dell, and once again the Co-op approach has worked in this country helping the co-op members
not at all i always check labels in shop to see where the food is from
see my post before, supermarkets would be daft to start importing the likes of milk, potato and meats from outside Ireland
simply because most people would opt instead to buy this produce elsewhere
the supermarkets are exploiting the fact that farmers are a fragmented group and playing farmers against each other, hence why they workers farmers of Ireland should unite in a Farmers Union Co-op and hold the country ransom :eek:0 -
Please explain how it would be possible for the FF Co-Op to sell it for cheaper, given the massive economies of scale in purchasing and logistics that Tesco benefit from. You're dreaming up scenario B and I'm saying it isn't possible.scenario B: our Fairness for Farmers Co-op is selling it in its shops for 80c while paying farmers 50c and reinvesting profit into the same farmer members
This scenario is called paying farmers the true price of a good, rather than indirectly paying for it through our taxes and CAP subsidies. My god, there is more to this than just making sure consumers pay peanuts for everything they get!theres also scenario C being pushed by the farmers
scenario C: supermarkets are forced to sell milk for 99c (hurting consumer) and are forced to pay farmers 50c (making it likely unprofitable to sell milk)
i dont like scenario C because thats what this whole thing is about
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You replied to that so fast you missed my edit:
Because the type and intensity of our current agricultural system is inherently unsustainable. We're a long way off the shocking things that happen in the US but there comes a certain point where the merry-go-round is going to have to stop. We don't need a break before we keep going - we need to change the system entirely.I'm no expert in crop rotation but from my limited understading of it: if our environment is so degraded, wouldn't the intervening years between the scaling back of production to what could be sold profitably and the consequent increasing of production when food scarcity kicked in do wonders for the land?
The truth is I don't know. I think it as a lot to do with WWII, the emergence of CAP and the political goals of Europe to ensure security of food supply for the continent. It has led to a system of subsidies that has spiralled out of control (in my opinion)Are producers being paid less than the cost of production solely because those goods can be produced elsewhere far cheaper or is there another reason?
For example, how much of the cost of a chicken is paid by the consumer and how much is covered by subsidies? Why don't we get rid of the subsidies and just pay the farmers a decent price? Think of how much we'd save in reduced admin and paperwork!0 -
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Because the type and intensity of our current agricultural system is inherently unsustainable. We're a long way off the shocking things that happen in the US but there comes a certain point where the merry-go-round is going to have to stop. We don't need a break before we keep going - we need to change the system entirely.
its unsustainable because the population of this world is unsustainable
what do you propose we starve people?0 -
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