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ESRI and Competition Authority responsible for banking regulation..
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i wasn't branding you, but thats what socialists/communists do > try to fix prices, and this time and time again has shown to do more harm than goodOK there is really no need to go down the 'you-don't-agree-with-my-liberal-economic-theory-and-therefore-are-a-socialist' route.And what about externalized costs?
what exactly are you referring to so theres no misunderstanding
, things such as carbon credits?
a) i dont agree with CAP and i think that should be removed, since it does distort market, but of course farmers wont like that now would they
Oh lord, the market is not perfect, the market can fail and the market is currently being warped by:
a) subsidies and
b) monopolies
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b) monopolies are dangerous hence the job of EU and state to break them down, and that they do (albeit often to late)
if the farmers want to sell produce at loss then thats their choice,The ultimate proof of this is farmers being paid less than the cost of production - how exactly does that fit in with the 'market-knows-all' theory?
any sane business person would run from such an arrangement
i have outlined a way for both farmers and consumers to benefit via creation of a co-op and selling direct (call it the Dell model) im trying my best here to think of a best possible solution, and that seems to be it
even if farmers cant compete on price with cheaper imported foods, they can compete on quality
look at marks & spencer who make money by competing on quality not price
unfortunately the farmers and @mickeyk areI'm not talking about fixing prices.
they want more money for their produce (fair enough who doesn't) but are not willing to sell to consumers directly themselves (As per my proposal) and are blaming the supermarkets for their problems
put it simply any increases will endup costing the consumer, i already pointed out that we have more expensive milk here than in Germany despite having better milk producing conditionsYeah, I'm sure it's part of the reason Dunne's slogan is 'The difference is we're Irish'.
unfortunately here in Ireland we no longer can compete (thanks to wages, energy,rent etc costs) on price in many areas, but we can try to compete on qualityI think you'll find stocking or not stocking Irish produce really won't change the shopping habits of many. If you look at this article, you can see Tesco really aren't bothered about keeping Irish suppliers. And look at all the shoppers who flocked to the North with the price differences. I appreciate people wanting cheap goods but the economic repercussions go further than that.
if people want to vote with their feet thats their choice,
what can you do about that? build a wall around the borders?
every-time consumers open their wallet they cast a vote for what they want whether its based on price on quality
if farmers want to price themselves into oblivion let them, i dont see why we should subsidize them more0 -
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there is one question that wasnt asked last night unfortunately on Frontline that i will now ask
why cant the farmers themselves setup a chain of shops (under a co-op scheme?) and sell direct to the customers in Ireland their produce? at whatever prices they think are "fair"
why not??
how come no one in the frontline room asked the most obvious of questions?
The funny thing is that is how most of our current middlemen started off.
They were coops but the big successful well run ones have become public companies and thus the farmers are no longer the real owners.
Yes they may have shares but the big shareholders maybe a pension fund or a bank and they couldn't care less about the suppliers.
The creameries, meat factories, pig factories claim they have to hone the raw material and package it, deliver it to retailers etc so they want their own margin.
The last part is that the likes of Tesco (and the others) are taking margin on top for displaying the item.
The large supermarkets are refusing to state what the margins are on thing s like milk.
The farmer gets 20-23 cent a litre and how much do we pay in supermarket ?
At the moment dairy farmers are making a loss.
When Kerry farmers looked for price increase they were told by Kerry group that they would bulk import milk from NZ and could get it as cheap.
Costs are much higher in Ireland than NZ so NZ farmers can produce it cheaper.
Yes they don't have subsidies in NZ, but their farms are larger (historically as well as recently) and in some regards their climate is a lot better.
In some areas they do not have to house their lifestock like in this country.
I know this leads to argument about if loss making then get out, have larger farms and more cost effective production.
Treat it like any pther industry will be the argument.
Well in that case go to states and take a look at a feedlot or one of the massive pig factories in the likes of Iowa.
Take a look at what has happened to rural USA and if people want that to happen in Ireland then fair enough.
We can always accomodate extra suburbs on big cities, extra people on the dole so why not.i wasn't branding you, but thats what socialists/communists do > try to fix prices, and this time and time again has shown to do more harm than good
what exactly are you referring to so theres no misunderstanding, things such as carbon credits?
a) i dont agree with CAP and i think that should be removed, since it does distort market, but of course farmers wont like that now would they
b) monopolies are dangerous hence the job of EU and state to break them down, and that they do (albeit often to late)
if the farmers want to sell produce at loss then thats their choice,
any sane business person would run from such an arrangement
i have outlined a way for both farmers and consumers to benefit via creation of a co-op and selling direct (call it the Dell model) im trying my best here to think of a best possible solution, and that seems to be it
even if farmers cant compete on price with cheaper imported foods, they can compete on quality
look at marks & spencer who make money by competing on quality not price
unfortunately the farmers and @mickeyk are
they want more money for their produce (fair enough who doesn't) but are not willing to sell to consumers directly themselves (As per my proposal) and are blaming the supermarkets for their problems
put it simply any increases will endup costing the consumer, i already pointed out that we have more expensive milk here than in Germany despite having better milk producing conditions
unfortunately here in Ireland we no longer can compete (thanks to wages, energy,rent etc costs) on price in many areas, but we can try to compete on quality
if people want to vote with their feet thats their choice,
what can you do about that? build a wall around the borders?
every-time consumers open their wallet they cast a vote for what they want whether its based on price on quality
if farmers want to price themselves into oblivion let them, i dont see why we should subsidize them more
FFS farmers are not trying to price themselves into oblivion.
Would you work for what someone in similar job got in 1985 ?
Price of foodstuffs have gone up but the producer is not getting it, their cut has affectively decreased.
Compete on quality is fine for a minority, it is the old story abotu go into off farming enterprises, grow or rear something unusual.
Well how many bleeding rabbit farmers and how many b&bs can we have ?
There are niches that farmers can break into, but no every one of them can do that or are lucky enough to have those options.
You keep harping on about selling direct to public.
It is easy for guy with 10 cows to start his own cheese making but if you have a hundred it is slightly more difficult to handle all that milk.
Seriously most of the ordinary joe soaps don't give a sh** about quality, they want cheap food.
Check out any of the food programs dealing with this in UK.
Check out the guy from River Cottage and how he was told by lady in shop she could 4 of the other chicken breasts for 2 of his free range ones.
Yes the more discerning will want fine cheese, a good steak, a chicken breast from free range chicken, but the bulk of consumers just want the neat packaging only costing few quid.
They will want to buy burgers down the local chipshop and most won't really care that it is the sh** meat from the animals and not prime beef.
There is another issue with your sell direct scheme and it is the level of bureaucracy that has come into the food chain system.
Slaughtering animals no longer can be done by just any normal butcher AFAIK.
Some of the things are very good for food safety, but it is a bit rich that you can buy food in supermarket from other countries (much cheaper) where there are none of these guarantees.
Actually speaking of selling direct to consumers, there are initiatives in the states where people club together to buy a carcase.
You get group of people to order sections of a carcase and when slaughtered each person gets their bit.
It cuts our the middlemen.
Now only thing that might hamper that here is the EU abbatoir regulations ?I am not allowed discuss …
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My friend who I mentioned earlier is supplying them and not making a penny as HE IS SUPPLYING THEM (A MASSIVELY PROFITABLE MNC) BELOW COST OF PRODUCTION!!! Made that big so you wouldn't miss it as you only seem to read what you want to read and what supports your argument.
Your point about your local butcher I take, but ye are talking about such a small scale that it wouldn't make any difference to farmers. Majority of sales in Ireland will always be through the multiples, though thats no problem by your logic as you seem to think this fairytale co-op could build the same structure that has taken Dunnes decades to build overnight.
Bottom line if our agri sector is left to the markets it will wipe out alot of efficient and good farmers, and we lose self sufficiency in food production, is that a good idea?
markets dont wipe out the efficient and profitable businesses, markets are very Darwinian its all about the survival of the fittest
if they are efficient and produce good quality products then they should have no trouble selling their products at a profit
you complain that the supermarkets have supply chains, etc and you are saying that farmers are not capable of creating a company specifically to manage their supply chain and sell direct to costumers
i think thats alot of fud, not only the idea im proposing can be done it has been done
the farmers complain that they are being ripped of by the supermarkets with supply chains, once again i dont see why they cant become a supply chain in themselves
but i suppose its always easier to moan and complain about the government and move the problem onto someone else (the consumers)
than actually do something about it
btw one of my family members operates a supermarket, not only does he manage to compete with the likes of Centra and other larger supermarkets in the area, i had a friend who was working in a Londis close to one of the shops complain how they were loosing customers because they were being undercut by my family member who was skipping the whole supply chain and dealing directly with many other businesses
i really worry for this country when people moan non stop about issues but dont realize that each problem always presents an opportunity, and businesses that solve problems make money 0 -
Again what you are talking about is niche products and businesses on a small scale, would you like the entire farming community in Ireland to become speciality farmers? It just wouldn't work, and most towns have farmers markets already. The industry is too big for that and we have companies like Kerry who are very good at what they do, we have a good agri industry and should be working to ensure it is sustainable. I agree with you when you say we need bigger and more efficient farms, this could save the farmer 1-2 cent per litre but there has to be give on both sides.markets dont wipe out the efficient and profitable businesses, markets are very Darwinian its all about the survival of the fittest
if they are efficient and produce good quality products then they should have no trouble selling their products at a profit
you complain that the supermarkets have supply chains, etc and you are saying that farmers are not capable of creating a company specifically to manage their supply chain and sell direct to costumers
i think thats alot of fud, not only the idea im proposing can be done it has been done
the farmers complain that they are being ripped of by the supermarkets with supply chains, once again i dont see why they cant become a supply chain in themselves
but i suppose its always easier to moan and complain about the government and move the problem onto someone else (the consumers)
than actually do something about it
btw one of my family members operates a supermarket, not only does he manage to compete with the likes of Centra and other larger supermarkets in the area, i had a friend who was working in a Londis close to one of the shops complain how they were loosing customers because they were being undercut by my family member who was skipping the whole supply chain and dealing directly with many other businesses
i really worry for this country when people moan non stop about issues but dont realize that each problem always presents an opportunity, and businesses that solve problems make money0 -
Yes. According to the IFA's 2009 Review of farm income (based on CSO data):SkepticOne wrote: »When you talk about being paid are you taking into account subsidies?In 2009, Direct Payments of €1.87 billion were greater than National Farm Income €1.65 billion, as the majority of farm enterprises in 2009 were operating at below the costs of production
It's sad when for something to be considered of value there has to be a € in front of it. I'm talking about carbon emissions, animal welfare, other emissions, water pollution, soil degradation, loss of biodiversity (which has been valued at approx. €2.1bn per annum) and the social implications of the various type of agriculture, the knock-on effects on tourism, one of our biggest industries, loss of food security, etc.what exactly are you referring to so theres no misunderstanding, things such as carbon credits?
So now you're calling all farmers insane. No surprise then that farmers are at higher risk of suicide than many other groups in our society due to financial stress. But in seriousness, I don't understand why you continue to filter every piece of information given to you through the 'market-knows-all' lens and come out with the most ridiculous statements like farmers want to sell at a loss. The mind boggles.if the farmers want to sell produce at loss then thats their choice,
any sane business person would run from such an arrangement
I think that other posters have clearly explained what has happened to this model in the past and why it would not work.i have outlined a way for both farmers and consumers to benefit via creation of a co-op and selling direct (call it the Dell model) im trying my best here to think of a best possible solution, and that seems to be it
Of course but what sort of market share do M&S have vs Tesco?even if farmers cant compete on price with cheaper imported foods, they can compete on quality. look at marks & spencer who make money by competing on quality not price
You see I don't put so much faith or responsibility in people to actually think that they won't choose saving a few pennies now rather than see the long term and wide-reaching benefits of supporting our Irish agricultural system. Agriculture is far too important to just leave it up to the person in Tesco to decide whether it stays or goes.if people want to vote with their feet thats their choice,
Now you're just being silly.if farmers want to price themselves into oblivion let them, i dont see why we should subsidize them more0 -
Agriculture is far too important to just leave it up to the person in Tesco to decide whether it stays or goes.
you obviously completely skipped over what i have written in this thread
1. the farmers can come together and take that "power" from the likes of tesco as per my suggestion
2. consumers dictate prices not producers (and yes Tesco is a customer of the farmers), you seem to have a huge problem understanding this basic foundation of commerce and hence why you are tripping over yourself, the alternative to consumer choice is a fixed market cartel, and i can tell you those always end badly for everyone involved
you and the farmers think that yee can dictate prices, and there lies the problem
im not gonna bother replying to everything and continue in this thread since we are just going around in circles now and everything that needs to be said was said, so to keep it short the summary:
the farmers can either use the system to their advantage or they can moan about how its "unfair" and expect the state to put up protectionist measures that would harm the consumer and then eventually the farmers themselves0 -
you obviously completely skipped over what i have written in this thread
1. the farmers can come together and take that "power" from the likes of tesco as per my suggestion
2. consumers dictate prices not producers (and yes Tesco is a customer of the farmers), you seem to have a huge problem understanding this basic foundation of commerce and hence why you are tripping over yourself, the alternative to consumer choice is a fixed market cartel, and i can tell you those always end badly for everyone involved
you and the farmers think that yee can dictate prices, and there lies the problem
im not gonna bother replying to everything and continue in this thread since we are just going around in circles now and everything that needs to be said was said, so to keep it short the summary:
the farmers can either use the system to their advantage or they can moan about how its "unfair" and expect the state to put up protectionist measures that would harm the consumer and then eventually the farmers themselves
It would be great if the farmers could come together and take the power from the huge multiples and indeed from the meat processors like larry goodman or the creameries like Avonmore/Kerry Group.
But you are missing what posters are saying that it is not that easy.
Between the level of investment necessary, the level of business know how required (most farmers are not budding Sean Quinns or Denis Brosnans) and with the level of beuracracy ionvolved today it becomes very hard.
All the while you are competing against the big guys who have collosal economies of scale, large contracts, brand images and contracts with large retail organisations.
It can be possible to go into a niche area, but as some of us continue to tell you it is harder when you go to greater volumes.
Maybe someday some of the little niche players will be big enough to provide markets for lots more farmers, but when they are small they can't.
Farmers knwo they can't dictate prices, they are more aware of that than probably any other sector out there, but once profitable farming enterprises are now making a loss because the ones higher up the chain are taking a big chunk of the smaller end price.
Something is going to have to give and it will probably be farmers leaving the business and we end up with huge farms.
Now the free marketeers and business minded people will say so what, it is survival of the fittest and big is better.
But is bigger better, do we wnat our food produced by factory farms, feedlots, etc.
There will also be huge social price for this resulting in desolate countryside (although with the way some planning has been carried out I wonder :rolleyes:) with dead villages and towns.I am not allowed discuss …
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It would be great if the farmers could come together and take the power from the huge multiples and indeed from the meat processors like larry goodman or the creameries like Avonmore/Kerry Group.
But you are missing what posters are saying that it is not that easy.
Between the level of investment necessary, the level of business know how required (most farmers are not budding Sean Quinns or Denis Brosnans) and with the level of beuracracy ionvolved today it becomes very hard.
All the while you are competing against the big guys who have collosal economies of scale, large contracts, brand images and contracts with large retail organisations.
It can be possible to go into a niche area, but as some of us continue to tell you it is harder when you go to greater volumes.
Maybe someday some of the little niche players will be big enough to provide markets for lots more farmers, but when they are small they can't.
Farmers knwo they can't dictate prices, they are more aware of that than probably any other sector out there, but once profitable farming enterprises are now making a loss because the ones higher up the chain are taking a big chunk of the smaller end price.
Something is going to have to give and it will probably be farmers leaving the business and we end up with huge farms.
Now the free marketeers and business minded people will say so what, it is survival of the fittest and big is better.
But is bigger better, do we wnat our food produced by factory farms, feedlots, etc.
There will also be huge social price for this resulting in desolate countryside (although with the way some planning has been carried out I wonder :rolleyes:) with dead villages and towns.
we already subsidize the farmers thru EU and all sorts of other welfare schemes
now they are taking the piss altogether
price controls will hurt consumers and the farmers themselves eventually, im sorry that you can not see that
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