Record number of CAO applications / likely effect on points

Ddemo

Ddemo wrote: »

i agree totally but im just saying as regards the extra pressure been put on LC students with regards the amount of CAO applicants. Every % will count this year more so than recent years with college places been faught for more so now than ever

Yes, but the pressure isn't coming from the mature students, it's coming from the increase in those sitting the leaving, and the increase in those sitting the leaving applying to third level education who would previously have looked for work instead.

This was bound to happen, less jobs means more in education. Better to be doing something than sitting around on the dole.

cork*girl

I think this is fairly scary! Seeming people are still going to be applying up until May :eek: Arts UCC went up 35 points last year I think.. what will it be this year!!? Not even thinking about my 1st choice which is primary teaching..

This may be a bit harsh to say but I feel that is kinda unfair that people who already had their chance to apply to CAO when they were in 6th year are now taking places when it is OUR turn..

pathway33

justaday wrote: »

any idea on points for orts in ucd? 400?

arts ....sorry orts in ucd has over 1,200 places i think and rarely moves due to the number of places. Even with the increase in demand I'd say 380 tops.

It's the courses with 15 or 20 places that can fluctuate wildly

randylonghorn

Ddemo wrote: »

they said on rte 4500 more applicants this year?

And it would have jumped by a significant number last year as well ... can't remember exact figure tbh.

It's that combined increase over the two years which is going to affect CAO points for you lot really, not any issues re: mature students.

The other issue which *may* impact is college budgets being cut by govt. ... more in that it will deter them from increasing places on courses to meet increased demand and ease the pressure, I doubt there will be actual decreases in places available except possibly in say construction-related courses where the numbers simply aren't needed any more.

Gael23

Ddemo wrote: »

well im thinking of business in ul and its 385 @ the moment and ill prob onky get 410ish would it rise that high?

See you there!
Im going for the one with french which was 380 last year. I think you will be ok, Im expecting it to be 400 or so.

cork*girl

cork*girl wrote: »

I think this is fairly scary! Seeming people are still going to be applying up until May :eek: Arts UCC went up 35 points last year I think.. what will it be this year!!? Not even thinking about my 1st choice which is primary teaching..

This may be a bit harsh to say but I feel that is kinda unfair that people who already had their chance to apply to CAO when they were in 6th year are now taking places when it is OUR turn..

There are no 'turns'; everyone should have the right to access higher education. What if someone wanted to take a gap year, or didn't get into their chosen course? Why should they be begrudged for trying to access education? It's not their fault the economy is the way it is.

randylonghorn

cork*girl wrote: »

This may be a bit harsh to say but I feel that is kinda unfair that people who already had their chance to apply to CAO when they were in 6th year are now taking places when it is OUR turn..

I don't mean to sound harsh, but who told you life was fair?

Do you think the people who worked their ass off and paid taxes for the last 5 / 10 / 15 years think it's fair that they are now on the dole with big debts because the unholy trinity of banks / developers / govt. lost the run of themselves, made huge profits, and forgot to plan for next year?

cork*girl wrote: »

45500 applied last year. nearly double..

No ... there were 45,500 first year places last year.

The number of applications has increased by ~10% to ~72,000

cork*girl

I didnt say life is fair.

felic

There really is no 'turns' here. By any means, once you sit your leaving cert, you are entitled to apply every single year if you want, do 20 degree courses if you want.
Stop blaming the people who are just doing what you are.. 'trying to find a means to support themselves in their careers and lives'. If its someone to blame ur after... look to our government. They knew this would happen and did nothing.

Look at any dole office on sign in day! Queues and queues of people. DO you think all those people get out of bed every day jumping for joy that after all that study, all that working and saving, 6 years down the line find themselves in that queue?

I say well done to those people who are going down the 'lets do another degree course'!. First, unlike a first timer, they have to fork out thousands to pay for it... and second, they have to more or less cast aside the last 10 years of their lives and start again! For no fault of their own. Simply because they have no other choice and dont want to be on the dole forever... which is whats looking to be the case for many of them.

So ditch you 'poor me its so unfair' and get working if you want a place.

What will happen as a result is fees will be brought back in for everyone. Its the only thing that will reduce the numbers.
Do you think thats fair?

ardmacha

Do you think the people who worked their ass off and paid taxes for the last 5 / 10 / 15 years think it's fair that they are now on the dole with big debts because the unholy trinity of banks / developers / govt. lost the run of themselves, made huge profits, and forgot to plan for next year?

Well you have to imagine that some of these people voted Fianna Fail and so brought this mess on the rest of us.

randylonghorn

ardmacha wrote: »

Well you have to imagine that some of these people voted Fianna Fail and so brought this mess on the rest of us.

Presumably, so did a similar proportion of the parents of the people doing LC this year!

See?! ... as every teenager knows, it's all the parents' fault!!!

Calum196

felic wrote: »

Well I think its very difficult to make any predictions at this early stage in terms of points. But we can be sure, that increased numbers in applicants, and low numbers of university places, points will rise.
The very high points course Id imagine will remain around the same levels they have been for the last few years. They never show a major drop or rise. What makes them so high is the numbers of people wanting to get those courses and also the number of people who repeat the leaving from the year before. The majority of repeats who try for courses like Veterinary, Pharmacy, Medicine, Dentistry, all pretty much get their 600 points cos they have a year of full time revision, and if the person got say 560 the first time... you know?

I hate this HPAT assessment thing. I love the idea of making things fair and that was the intention, but if you look at it, its still a points race there. So for anyone going for Medicine, you need to secure your 550 points to be in with a chance. The HPAT is a tough exam and you cant predict what way those results will go. But ud need to be hitting the 730 mark this year for all of the medicine courses.

The increase in applicants is very unlikely to affect the points for medicine. All the 20 somethings leaving construction sites to go to college are not likely to be applying for medicine. The points are likely to remain static.

felic

lol@ Calum. Thats very true. I cant really see a Bob the Builder type going into Medicine or Dentistry. But ya never know.

Messi 10

More applications, same number of college places.
How do you think the points will go?

Obviously they'll go up. Ye all say that medicine will stay the same but I wouldn't be too sure of that. I'd say it'll go up. Not because of the mature students, because as some of you have already said the vast majority of them won't be applying to medicine.

The reason it'll go up is because last year was the first year of the hpat and people weren't really used to it. People will do better at it this year as they will be better able to prepare and many people will be doing the exam for a second time. Also the new maths tables make subjects like physics and maths significantly easier which will lead to better results. So my theory is, the points for medicine will go up slightly

Making It Bad

I have no problem with mature students wanting the go to college. The problem I have is the route that they get to use to go to college. They should be made redo The Leaving Cert if they are really serious about furthering their education. They should then be thrown in with the points system like the rest of us poor young souls.

Messi 10 wrote: »

The reason it'll go up is because last year was the first year of the hpat and people weren't really used to it. People will do better at it this year as they will be better able to prepare and many people will be doing the exam for a second time. Also the new maths tables make subjects like physics and maths significantly easier which will lead to better results. So my theory is, the points for medicine will go up slightly

Not true. If the marks are up for physics/maths this year because of new formulae tables they will make the marking scheme stricter, like they always do. The results are fitted to a bell-curve which means the result as a whole will be the exact same as they were last year (and the year before that and the year before that and so on...).

Messi 10

Messi 10 wrote: »

More applications, same number of college places.
How do you think the points will go?

Obviously they'll go up. Ye all say that medicine will stay the same but I wouldn't be too sure of that. I'd say it'll go up. Not because of the mature students, because as some of you have already said the vast majority of them won't be applying to medicine.

The reason it'll go up is because last year was the first year of the hpat and people weren't really used to it. People will do better at it this year as they will be better able to prepare and many people will be doing the exam for a second time. Also the new maths tables make subjects like physics and maths significantly easier which will lead to better results. So my theory is, the points for medicine will go up slightly

The new tables don't make the exams easier, you still need to know how to work stuff out. The high scoring questions require more of you than to find a formula and plonk stuff into it.

And the HPAT is an exam designed to deliver the same points scale every year. The marking scheme is designed so that the 50th percentile is always ~150 points, so HPAT scores won't be increasing dramatically. Any rise in medicine will be due to LC points, and considering the points are capped at 560, it's not that significant after you reach 550.

Professional Griefer

randylonghorn wrote: »

I don't mean to sound harsh, but who told you life was fair?

Do you think the people who worked their ass off and paid taxes for the last 5 / 10 / 15 years think it's fair that they are now on the dole with big debts because the unholy trinity of banks / developers / govt. lost the run of themselves, made huge profits, and forgot to plan for next year?



No ... there were 45,500 first year places last year.

The number of applications has increased by ~10% to ~72,000

I know that if i don't get into college then thats my fault for not working hard enough, so I won't be blaming anyone come August.

Making It Bad

Deleted User wrote: »

The new tables don't make the exams easier, you still need to know how to work stuff out. The high scoring questions require more of you than to find a formula and plonk stuff into it.

They definitely do make exams easier. Take for example the integration section of maths, for certain questions the students would have formally be forced to make a substitution in order to integrate. Now there are new formulae which do it in one step. But as I said, this still won't increase the results which people get because the results will still be fitted to a bell-curve.

felic

LC students now have it very cushy in comparison to a number of years ago. Seriously, it may not go down well, but the exams have gone piss easy or the formats have changed so much that the idea is to maximise marks. ANd the idea of project work gives people a huge example. Hence the increase in numbers of students getting 600 in the last number of years. to jump for say on average, 6 students in the country to what it is now of about 168? Hmmmm. Better teaching and smarter kids my eye!

toiletduck

Why all the hate for mature students? :pac: In fairness, once ye go to college ye'll hate them again once ye see that (in general) they work far harder and tend to do better than fresh-outta-the-LC students.


The main thing I see happening in regards to the rise in applicants, is a massive first year dropout rate next year.

Anthony16

Making It Bad wrote: »

I have no problem with mature students wanting the go to college. The problem I have is the route that they get to use to go to college. They should be made redo The Leaving Cert if they are really serious about furthering their education. They should then be thrown in with the points system like the rest of us poor young souls.



Not true. If the marks are up for physics/maths this year because of new formulae tables they will make the marking scheme stricter, like they always do. The results are fitted to a bell-curve which means the result as a whole will be the exact same as they were last year (and the year before that and the year before that and so on...).

100% true and the hpat results will remain roughly the same as they are adjusted(from what iv read anyway)

Anthony16

felic wrote: »

LC students now have it very cushy in comparison to a number of years ago. Seriously, it may not go down well, but the exams have gone piss easy or the formats have changed so much that the idea is to maximise marks. ANd the idea of project work gives people a huge example. Hence the increase in numbers of students getting 600 in the last number of years. to jump for say on average, 6 students in the country to what it is now of about 168? Hmmmm. Better teaching and smarter kids my eye!

Last year the number of people who got over 550 decreased a lot,from previous years.

dan_d

Suppose there aren't many engineers around here, but (sad as I know it is!!!)there's a good piece in the Engineer's Journal this month about the education system, suggested reforms, and the statistics of how the system works and how it's been dumbed down over the years, and more importantly, what that means for people entering college. I'll try and find a link. If you can plough through it, the main points are very good - though it's a bit heavy reading!!

pathway33

Anthony16 wrote: »

Last year the number of people who got over 550 decreased a lot,from previous years.

Yep but look back 15 years

In 2009, 2.6% got 550 or over.
In 2008, 2.9% got 550 or over.
In 1995, 0.9% got 550 or over.

felic

Exactly. You cant base these stats on any one year in particular. There will always be a fluctuation caused by numbers of students taking the LC. But as a general overview of the last 20 years of the LC, the graph will show a steady and sharp incline of numbers of students hitting the 550+ mark and thats very interesting.
So the fact that now all these extra applicants have been thrown back into the pool, it shows even moreso what a joke the entire points system really is.

ClassicCiars

i think the point system is kinda unfair , i mean im terrible at maths and science but Im looking at doing Gaeilge agus Cumarsaid which have nothing to do with maths or science but if i was to drop to ordinary level or fail i wouldnt geet on my course even though im practically fluent in Irish , how is that fair ? the fact that im not at all scientific has nothing to do with how capable a person I am and the fact the the points are set to go sky high this year really has me questioning the fairness of this system . continuous assesment would be way better that way your taking pressure off students and your not overwhelming them with workloads of pointless imformation and there should be some sort of letter of application or interview to get into college like in america atleast then they know your strong points are the course your looking at instead of focusing on the fact your weaknesses drag you down .

Anthony16

pathway33 wrote: »

Yep but look back 15 years

In 2009, 2.6% got 550 or over.
In 2008, 2.9% got 550 or over.
In 1995, 0.9% got 550 or over.

But there wer hardly as many grind schools 15 years back,were there?
I agree though overall,that it has been dumbed down somewhat but iv also heard that marking schemes may be stricter in the coming years

felic

very good point classicCiars.

There really should be some form of interview process for all third level courses. The LC is very important of course but its implication on a persons life is far far far beyond what anyone even realizes. Its too much at that age to know what you want to do with the rest of your life.

I think maybe what might work better, is say in transition year, instead of being forced to pick subjects for 5th year after a year of basically doing project work, work experience, character building, work shops... it would be far more beneficial to students if there was a a day of the week where people are brought in to talk about college courses, what they are about, what subjects are needed for them, what the future career prospects of those courses are, and so on.
Instead of expecting a 16 or 17 year old to go and poke out all this info themselves and blindly pick a career they really know nothing about.

With the current points system... lets take a high scoring course like Veterinary. They say you need to have Chemistry, Biology and Maths and that Physics is a help. You also need English Irish and a foreign language just to qualify to get in. So say you get a C3 at higher level in all of these and so meet the criteria of entry. Say such a student gets his/her A1 in home economics, art, German, Latin, Social Studies, Agricultural Science. They have their 600 points right there and in they go.
As opposed to a person who does all the required subjects, works their butt off and gets an A2 or B1s in all of them. Who is the more deserving of that course place?
Interviews need to be brought in to eliminate this points race. Its ridiculous!

pathway33

Anthony16 wrote: »

But there wer hardly as many grind schools 15 years back,were there?
I agree though overall,that it has been dumbed down somewhat but iv also heard that marking schemes may be stricter in the coming years

Don't know about how many grind schools there were 15 years ago but Leeson Street Dublin was certainly there.

At some point in the last 20 years the marking schemes have become public knowledge so that may account for some of the increase in the numbers getting higher grades

Tell us more about the stricter marking schemes to come. Where did you hear this?

Anthony16

pathway33 wrote: »

Don't know about how many grind schools there were 15 years ago but Leeson Street Dublin was certainly there.

At some point in the last 20 years the marking schemes have become public knowledge so that may account for some of the increase in the numbers getting higher grades

Tell us more about the stricter marking schemes to come. Where did you hear this?

Read it in the paper when i got my results last year.Dunno if its true though.Journalists tend to make mountains out of molehills for a good story
.My own grind school wasnt around in 1995