Record number of CAO applications / likely effect on points

Anthony16

felic wrote: »

very good point classicCiars.

There really should be some form of interview process for all third level courses. The LC is very important of course but its implication on a persons life is far far far beyond what anyone even realizes. Its too much at that age to know what you want to do with the rest of your life.

I think maybe what might work better, is say in transition year, instead of being forced to pick subjects for 5th year after a year of basically doing project work, work experience, character building, work shops... it would be far more beneficial to students if there was a a day of the week where people are brought in to talk about college courses, what they are about, what subjects are needed for them, what the future career prospects of those courses are, and so on.
Instead of expecting a 16 or 17 year old to go and poke out all this info themselves and blindly pick a career they really know nothing about.

With the current points system... lets take a high scoring course like Veterinary. They say you need to have Chemistry, Biology and Maths and that Physics is a help. You also need English Irish and a foreign language just to qualify to get in. So say you get a C3 at higher level in all of these and so meet the criteria of entry. Say such a student gets his/her A1 in home economics, art, German, Latin, Social Studies, Agricultural Science. They have their 600 points right there and in they go.
As opposed to a person who does all the required subjects, works their butt off and gets an A2 or B1s in all of them. Who is the more deserving of that course place?
Interviews need to be brought in to eliminate this points race. Its ridiculous!

I think ireland is far too small for interviews.Nepotism would definitely exist.

felic

thats true I suppose.
its difficult to think of a system that would actually be fair across the board. Unless they start drilling down courses to specific LC subjects and that those subjects are the ones that your points for getting a place on that course count towards. It would be a headache to calculate and you're not getting away from the 'points system' and forcing people to decide their career at too young an age... but it would set a base level for that course so that all applicants are measured on the same level.

Teutorix

felic wrote: »

thats true I suppose.
its difficult to think of a system that would actually be fair across the board. Unless they start drilling down courses to specific LC subjects and that those subjects are the ones that your points for getting a place on that course count towards. It would be a headache to calculate and you're not getting away from the 'points system' and forcing people to decide their career at too young an age... but it would set a base level for that course so that all applicants are measured on the same level.

Oh yeah that would be great in my school, want to do chemistry in university? Cant do it in the LC because my class is full of tards who all wanted to do bio because they heard it was easier.

felic

Thats more of it. If a student wants to do a subject, the school should be obliged to provide it to that student. Ok, time tables clash and so forth... class numbers might be 3 people... hey.. do you know how many teachers are out of work right now?
Why doesnt the Education Department see these things? Their main aim now should be getting people off the dole queue and back into work! Not forcing them back into education so that that system can too get brought to its knees.

Teutorix

felic wrote: »

Thats more of it. If a student wants to do a subject, the school should be obliged to provide it to that student. Ok, time tables clash and so forth... class numbers might be 3 people... hey.. do you know how many teachers are out of work right now?
Why doesnt the Education Department see these things? Their main aim now should be getting people off the dole queue and back into work! Not forcing them back into education so that that system can too get brought to its knees.

But that would be doing something proactive. MADNESS :rolleyes:

Orlaladuck

I can see Nepotism being a Huge problem with an interview. You meet people who know some relative of yours all over the place. For example at Oxegen 2009 I ended up ina tent with some guys who knew my grandparents. |
It's bloody awful in things like Community Games as well. I lost out on a silver medal in swimming a few years ago because the judges were too lazy to notice I came second and gave the medal to some niece of the judge. What's it going to be like with a course in their hands?
I know it's not going to happen everywhere but it's still not fair in any case.

Teutorix

Well UCC already has an interview and audition process for its music and Arts with music degrees. Havent heard anything bad about it.

Orlaladuck

Good point. All my courses require interviews but at the same time, those assess me on my work rather than me as a person - I'm sure the music one wants you to show how good at music you are and how big an interest you have. If you were to put it to the average arts course, it'd be to show how much of an interest in the course you have rather than all the work you've put into the course as Well As the leaving cert points - dyu get me?=/. Gah i'd be able to say this alot better than typing it.

For my course I have to make a portfolio and if you get <240 points, you don't get into the course on that. But I've put a TON of time and effort into that whereas just an interview would be like a job interview in a way =/.

randylonghorn

felic wrote: »

If a student wants to do a subject, the school should be obliged to provide it to that student. Ok, time tables clash and so forth... class numbers might be 3 people... hey.. do you know how many teachers are out of work right now?

There are plenty of teachers out of work all right, but who is going to pay them?

The country, incited by the media and by the government (who are only delighted to get the attention away from the bankers / developers / govt. unholy trinity) are baying for massive cuts in the public service budget. There isn't a chance of making provision for extra subjects with small pupil numbers in schools, there wasn't much chance of it when money was plentiful, in fact.

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of sympathy for people who find themselves caught because schools aren't in a position to provide subjects which would be useful for the third level courses they want to pursue, especially when there aren't choices locally in terms of schools ... but there are lots of things which would be nice to see in place which realistically will never happen.

mia19

Reillyman wrote: »

What if they couldn't afford to go to college after leaving school, even if they had a great leaving cert. I hate this middle-class attitude of short sightedness. Grow up and look at the world around you...

I totally agree. There are lots of reasons why people may not have applied to college after leaving school...
There is no rule book that says 'you must apply for college when you leave school...'
Mature students are just as entitled to further education as anybody else.

jumpguy

randylonghorn wrote: »

There are plenty of teachers out of work all right, but who is going to pay them?

The country, incited by the media and by the government (who are only delighted to get the attention away from the bankers / developers / govt. unholy trinity) are baying for massive cuts in the public service budget. There isn't a chance of making provision for extra subjects with small pupil numbers in schools, there wasn't much chance of it when money was plentiful, in fact.

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of sympathy for people who find themselves caught because schools aren't in a position to provide subjects which would be useful for the third level courses they want to pursue, especially when there aren't choices locally in terms of schools ... but there are lots of things which would be nice to see in place which realistically will never happen.

It's incredibly harsh, in fairness though, especially places where HL maths is being scraped. I have very small classes for alot of subjects (I'm doing alot of minority subjects) and if any were scraped I'd be screwed tbh. :-/

felic

There are schools out there scrapping Higher Maths? :eek: MY GOD! There are so many courses in uni had you not done Higher Maths you would be in so much trouble. Thats insane!

DancingQueen:)

I'm thinking of being a maths teacher, stress of the whole points system. It was tough enough already. I'm going to just do aswel as i can and hope for the best

Calum196

At the end of the day we live in a largely corrupt country with a fundamentally flawed education system. Its a dog eat dog world and you need to do what is necessary to get ahead.

I go to a grind school. Do I think they are fair ? No. They have created the "points race". But this is Ireland.

randylonghorn

jumpguy wrote: »

It's incredibly harsh, in fairness though, especially places where HL maths is being scraped. I have very small classes for alot of subjects (I'm doing alot of minority subjects) and if any were scraped I'd be screwed tbh. :-/

I know it is, dude, I'm just pointing out that it simply isn't possible to provide every subject in every school, especially under the present cutbacks.

And I agree with you that HL Maths should be a priority, most schools I know seem to be doing their best to protect it at least.

fufureida

Higher level maths is being scrapped?! That's mad! Sure couldn't care less for maths but it's so important for many careers!

Gael23

Well there are 5 students in the 6th year HL maths class in my school. My school is really lacking rescources so I can see a point where it will be no longer possible to offer it.

melekalikimaka

ryanf1 wrote: »

Well there are 5 students in the 6th year HL maths class in my school. My school is really lacking rescources so I can see a point where it will be no longer possible to offer it.

thats insane... is there a reason so few do it?

randylonghorn

melekalikimaka wrote: »

thats insane... is there a reason so few do it?

Mainly I think because it takes up so much time ... in general there are far easier subjects to clock up points in. So unless you actually need HL Maths for your course ...

And it's all about the points these days, unfortunately. Hard to blame the youngsters really, it's the system which is at fault.

fufureida

randylonghorn wrote: »

Mainly I think because it takes up so much time ... in general there are far easier subjects to clock up points in. So unless you actually need HL Maths for your course ...

And it's all about the points these days, unfortunately. Hard to blame the youngsters really, it's the system which is at fault.

Agreed

I'm really glad that my school is so strong in maths...we're the complete opposite of the trend in that of a year of 120 or so there's 3 higher classes and 2 ordinary, so it's a big priority. HL maths isn't too difficult once it's taught right, and my teacher is gifted. It's a shame it's so unpopular these days, because once you get the hang of it it's just practice from there.

Little Acorn

Is there any chance that the points could raise 65 points or higher?
Do ye think the points will raise alot higher in IT's,(as more people might be applying due to them normally requiring lower points?)
Or do ye think they will raise equally in both Uni's and IT's?
Would 65 points be too much of a jump?

rebel girl 15

Making It Bad wrote: »

I have no problem with mature students wanting the go to college. The problem I have is the route that they get to use to go to college. They should be made redo The Leaving Cert if they are really serious about furthering their education. They should then be thrown in with the points system like the rest of us poor young souls.

I know for UCC and this applys pretty much across the boards that in each course a number of places are allocated to mature students, and to those students who get HEAR or are coming in with certs. I know for my course in UCC that these prospective students have to sit an exam, I think it is two essays that they have to write, and a few other bits, before they even get considered. 70 applied, I think 15 got it last year. There are two seperate streams in, and if a course is being increased in size, there is a proportional increase in mature student places and school leaver places. As the LC students compete with their peers for the places, the mature students compete with their peers for the places. http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/education/third-level-education/applying-to-college/third_level_courses_for_mature_students

toiletduck wrote: »

Why all the hate for mature students? :pac: In fairness, once ye go to college ye'll hate them again once ye see that (in general) they work far harder and tend to do better than fresh-outta-the-LC students.

The main thing I see happening in regards to the rise in applicants, is a massive first year dropout rate next year.

I agree that they work harder than the average college student! And they have no problem asking a lecturer about stuff whereas school leavers may leave it slide and not bother. And tbh, if these are people going back after completing an initial degree, every college will welcome them with open hands for the fees!

Regarding the dropout rate, iirc the current drop out rate nationally is about the 20% mark. My course is about 7%, but in general courses like Arts it is quite high

rebel girl 15

fufureida wrote: »

Higher level maths is being scrapped?! That's mad! Sure couldn't care less for maths but it's so important for many careers!

Hopefully the roll out of project maths will help increase the numbers doing honours maths nationally. I was talking to a maths teacher who was teaching for about 40 years, and another guy who was teaching for the last 15 and they said that in the last 20 years, the paper has become easier and easier. It is now as difficult as the ordinary paper of roughly 20 years ago. we ended up comparing a number of exams!

The points system puts pressure on teachers, who end up encouraging rote learning, which most definitely cannot be done with Honours Maths. The system is most definitely at fault

felic

@LittleAcorn... its impossible to predict the possibility of a course jumping 65 points from the year before. But looking at stats down through the years of the points entry system, the biggest jumps tend to have been between 30 and 40 points, and that was as a result of the number of applicants to the course in question and the amount of those applicants getting really good results.

This year, as you have seen, there has been a record number of applicants, so its even more difficult to predict what the knock on affect of that would be. But I would imagine, that with a cushion of 50 points from the year prior, you should be ok. The only reason a course might jump extravagantly (talking a jump of 100 points or something) would be if they reduced the number of places on a course to say from 60 places to 30 or if suddenly, a certain sector proved to be on a rocket scale here in terms of development and employment etc... example, say they discover TooTamKhanas (lol) sisters tomb up in some underground cave in Sligo and a massive tourism industry sprouts up in the area as a result. You can e sure that tourism courses would be high in demand in such case or hotel management course.

So the chances of that happening are slim cos no sector here in Ireland is looking like a sure bet of a job on completing the course.


As for this Higher Level Maths being dropped? Really... thats just more proof that the system is failing. As already shown, the standard of this paper has dropped in terms of 'doable' so if students are still struggling with it, something is seriously wrong.

The___________

In my own school out of the 6th year class of 130-140 there are only 25 left in honours maths,at he start of 5th year there was two full classes of 30 each.

I think that how students perform in hon. maths is alot to do with your teacher,I've been lucky enough to have the best maths teacher in the school since 1st year will others have not been so lucky.

My school is part of the project maths test group and I think that will make a big difference when it is rolled out across the country,we did a mock in oct/nov and it was quite easy tbh.

Lynkx

The___________ wrote: »

I think that how students perform in hon. maths is alot to do with your teacher,I've been lucky enough to have the best maths teacher in the school since 1st year will others have not been so lucky.

It is DEFINATELY all about the teacher. My Higher Level Maths teacher in fifth year didn't exactly teach us the course. Instead, she thought it'd be better if the students just "read over the chapter for themselves and try the questions" without her explaining much. She would then give out to the students who didn't attempt every question.

I now do Ordinary Level Maths, obviously.

But on topic of the CAO thing... everybody just apply for PLC's in subjects that you really like. Apply for the CAO as well but make sure to apply for PLC's, just in case.

Little Acorn

felic wrote: »

@LittleAcorn... its impossible to predict the possibility of a course jumping 65 points from the year before. But looking at stats down through the years of the points entry system, the biggest jumps tend to have been between 30 and 40 points, and that was as a result of the number of applicants to the course in question and the amount of those applicants getting really good results.

This year, as you have seen, there has been a record number of applicants, so its even more difficult to predict what the knock on affect of that would be. But I would imagine, that with a cushion of 50 points from the year prior, you should be ok. The only reason a course might jump extravagantly (talking a jump of 100 points or something) would be if they reduced the number of places on a course to say from 60 places to 30 or if suddenly, a certain sector proved to be on a rocket scale here in terms of development and employment etc... example, say they discover TooTamKhanas (lol) sisters tomb up in some underground cave in Sligo and a massive tourism industry sprouts up in the area as a result. You can e sure that tourism courses would be high in demand in such case or hotel management course.

So the chances of that happening are slim cos no sector here in Ireland is looking like a sure bet of a job on completing the course.


As for this Higher Level Maths being dropped? Really... thats just more proof that the system is failing. As already shown, the standard of this paper has dropped in terms of 'doable' so if students are still struggling with it, something is seriously wrong.

Thanks Felic,that has reassured me quite a bit.:)

randylonghorn

felic wrote: »

example, say they discover TooTamKhanas (lol) sisters tomb up in some underground cave in Sligo ...

Tutankhamun / Tutenkhamen.

Honestly, don't they teach Egyptian any more either?!!! :pac:

Making It Bad

Yes, things are becoming ridiculous. Our courses are getting dumber by the minute, there is nothing actually difficult still on the honours maths course. If you compare it to other countries they're doing the stuff that we're doing in "honours" LC maths at age 14. Other subjects like physics are also seriously dumbed down too, no calculus in LC physics is pathetic.