Record number of CAO applications / likely effect on points

JellyBeans92

cork*girl wrote: »

This may be a bit harsh to say but I feel that is kinda unfair that people who already had their chance to apply to CAO when they were in 6th year are now taking places when it is OUR turn..

I totally agree with you, like I understand there are genuine people who couldn't before afford to go to college, but to people who f**ked off to Oz for gap years or people going back to do second degrees:

Back off, we LC students have enough pressure from each other to get into college, you shoulda used YOUR TURn when you had the chance, stop taking OURS

:pac::pac::pac:

The___________

Making It Bad wrote: »

Yes, things are becoming ridiculous. Our courses are getting dumber by the minute, there is nothing actually difficult still on the honours maths course. If you compare it to other countries they're doing the stuff that we're doing in "honours" LC maths at age 14. Other subjects like physics are also seriously dumbed down too, no calculus in LC physics is pathetic.

Have you had a look at the new project maths paper 2?
On the mock we did in Nov their was a vectors question for 25 marks and it took about 5 mins to complete,there was also a section on stats that required you to give reasons why a survey may be unbalanced it was more like a question you would expect in CSPE or geography.

Jessibelle

JellyBeans92 wrote: »

I totally agree with you, like I understand there are genuine people who couldn't before afford to go to college, but to people who f**ked off to Oz for gap years or people going back to do second degrees:

Back off, we LC students have enough pressure from each other to get into college, you shoulda used YOUR TURn when you had the chance, stop taking OURS

:pac::pac::pac:

We Mature students would like to point out that our fees that we pay to return and the taxes we have paid to date partially make it possible for you leaving cert students to have hugely subsidised courses. I took advantage of this my first time round, you'll take advantage of it this time round and so the circle goes on...
And I'm as entitled as the rest of you to go to college and study what I want, I didn't get a chance to first time round, but made the most of my chances then. Many of you first timers will be in a similar situation in a few years time and are you honestly going to deprive yourself of the possibility of realising your (potentially revised) dreams because you've already used 'your turn'?

The___________

Everyone deserves a chance to better themselves through further education no matter what age they are.
Some LC students need to realise this,before they go spouting off about mature students 'stealing' their college places,a set percentage off places are set aside for mature students so LC's are not in competition with them anyway.

felic

yes, and also its worth taking into account of the variety of courses that are now available that were not there when these people were trying first time round. Its not their fault that their sectors have been hit by the recession and what alternative do they have? Do u honestly think people like sitting around being on the dole?
Grow up a little bit.

randylonghorn

JellyBeans92 wrote: »

I totally agree with you, like I understand there are genuine people who couldn't before afford to go to college, but to people who f**ked off to Oz for gap years or people going back to do second degrees:

Back off, we LC students have enough pressure from each other to get into college, you shoulda used YOUR TURn when you had the chance, stop taking OURS

:pac::pac::pac:

So obviously if you don't get the course you want this year, you won't be repeating or reapplying next year because it's no longer "YOUR TURN" ...?

Professional Griefer

The___________ wrote: »

Everyone deserves a chance to better themselves through further education no matter what age they are.
Some LC students need to realise this,before they go spouting off about mature students 'stealing' their college places,a set percentage off places are set aside for mature students so LC's are not in competition with them anyway.

But not all of them are applying through the whole Mature Student thing. They're applying the same way as us. Our guidance teacher was telling us that she's had around 15 mature students with LCs and around 400-450 points who want to go now. Instead of doing it back then they went off trying to benefit from the boom. So we are in competition with them.
I don't really care TBH. If thats what they want to do, fair play to them and I wish them all the best.

Liveit

Making It Bad wrote: »

Yes, things are becoming ridiculous. Our courses are getting dumber by the minute, there is nothing actually difficult still on the honours maths course. If you compare it to other countries they're doing the stuff that we're doing in "honours" LC maths at age 14. Other subjects like physics are also seriously dumbed down too, no calculus in LC physics is pathetic.

Ahh come on the courses haven't got easier if you have looked at past papers. I looked at maths paper from 1997 and it is easier than now.
Other subjects have gotten harder such as Ag science.
Things have been put in and taken out but this is because they weren't really relevant in the first place.
Vectors probably will be gone next year but it is not because it is hard. It is just not attempted.
And there is no need for calculus to be in physics it is already in maths and the physics course is already packed.

DancingQueen:)

Making It Bad wrote: »

Yes, things are becoming ridiculous. Our courses are getting dumber by the minute, there is nothing actually difficult still on the honours maths course. If you compare it to other countries they're doing the stuff that we're doing in "honours" LC maths at age 14. Other subjects like physics are also seriously dumbed down too, no calculus in LC physics is pathetic.

I'd disagree with this. I was in a maths class in England and in America and i thought the honours maths classes here were way harder. In AP math in America for 16 year olds they were doing basic algebra, things we'd learn in first year. Maybe it's not like that everywhere but that's what i saw. I also don't think honours maths is easy, with practise it gets easier sure but i think it takes a lot of work and effort.

JellyBeans92

Jessibelle wrote: »

We Mature students would like to point out that our fees that we pay to return and the taxes we have paid to date partially make it possible for you leaving cert students to have hugely subsidised courses. I took advantage of this my first time round, you'll take advantage of it this time round and so the circle goes on...
And I'm as entitled as the rest of you to go to college and study what I want, I didn't get a chance to first time round, but made the most of my chances then. Many of you first timers will be in a similar situation in a few years time and are you honestly going to deprive yourself of the possibility of realising your (potentially revised) dreams because you've already used 'your turn'?

In all honesty, I know this sounds harsh but I don't care what fees you have to pay, It's not like I don't have to pay anything to get to college or my parents haven't been squeezed for extra taxes like everyone else.

If you want LC students to see you mature students as fair, then you should have to go through the same system we do, if you want to start college in 2010, then sit your LC in 2010. Since Papers and Marking Systems vary from year to year it seems absolutely moronic to compare a student today and a student 10 years ago together.

If you want to be in our first year college class, then do the LC with us. Otherwise it's just a double-standard whereby if you have money who gives a f**k about the 6th year student who's been working their ass off for their points for the last 6 years.

:pac::pac::pac:

felic

Thats exactly the problem Jellybeans92.
There is no comparison between a student who did the leaving 10 years ago and the student who does their Leaving this year. The exams are completely different yet the points are taken to be at the same level even though they could be a world apart.
This is the problem that the Education department now has to sit down and figure out. Sadly, its too late for any action to be done on this for this year as the horse has bolted on it. They should have seen this coming and laid down another set of criteria for such second time round candidates coming back into the race. Like maybe set aside a portion of places for these applicants and let them compete among each other for those limited places. Thats a huge headache cos its back to the same problem again... each years leaving cert not being the same.

In terms of actually sitting the leaving in 2010 again... I see your point but thats not feasible either. You would have grind schools jammed to capacity with people taking evening courses and so on. And maybe 10 years ago, that would have worked, but now, with the addition of project work, along with the oral exams for languages... can you imagine what chaos that would be?

Its a problem alright and I hope they adjust some criteria for oncoming years.
This year, however, for everyone its just going to be a tongue in cheek situation. Can you imagine if a particular course gets its places filled entirely of these second time applicants? That could potentially happen here!

Jessibelle

To respond to JellyBeans92, I am sitting exams again this year, as are many mature students, and have to satisfy the same LC requirements as you would if you wanted to do the same courses as I do. Does that make it more fair in your eyes?
When I originally sat the Leaving Cert, from what I'm to believe from previous posts on this thread, the exams were harder, so I will be at an advantage given the exams have been dumbed down. Does this make it more fair?
Surely if I could be asessed on the basis of my experience and volunteer work,attend an interview, as well as display my aptitude for the subjects, and even then let it come down to so much random selection, that would somewhat level the playing field... oh wait...

Mature students do have to go through the same CAO system. Some chose to resit their exams, others don't but we have to jump through other hoops to be even considered for a place. So please don't assume that we aren't held to an equivilant standard as the student thats sitting the leaving cert, in many cases it's slightly higher as we realistically must meet minimum points requirements and justify why our life/work experience warrants that we may be deemed 'worthy' to sit in your first year college class.
Just as a point of interest, when I was sitting the LC first time round, I held very similar views to you. Funny how things change.

randylonghorn

Liveit wrote: »

Ahh come on the courses haven't got easier if you have looked at past papers. I looked at maths paper from 1997 and it is easier than now.

There has been points inflation, take it from someone who has watched it happen at the coalface, through a combination of changes in courses / changes in marking standards.

I would accept though that it is not absolutely consistent across all subjects.

JellyBeans92 wrote: »

If you want LC students to see you mature students as fair, then you should have to go through the same system we do, if you want to start college in 2010, then sit your LC in 2010. Since Papers and Marking Systems vary from year to year it seems absolutely moronic to compare a student today and a student 10 years ago together.

True, comparing results from 2010 directly with results from 10 years ago would leave those who sat the LC 10 years ago at a disadvantage.

JellyBeans92 wrote: »

If you want to be in our first year college class, then do the LC with us. Otherwise it's just a double-standard whereby if you have money who gives a f**k about the 6th year student who's been working their ass off for their points for the last 6 years.

:pac::pac::pac:

While mature students very often have been working their ass off to pay the taxes that paid for your schooling (yes, I know your parents have contributed too, no-one is denying that).

And mature students don't get into college because they "have money" ... assuming they are full-time they are subject to the same fees etc. as you.

Mature students generally have a far better standard of education in the broad sense than LC students, though they may not have learned off as many Lear quotes or French irregular verbs (recently anyway). They are highly committed, and they generally do better in college (on average) than people your age ... proof of the pudding, etc.

But let's look for a moment at the "do your LC with us" idea. So every mature student, regardless of what they have been doing or have learned in the meantime, must repeat their LC. Ok ... where? Schools are under enough budgetary pressure at the moment without adding a cohort of older students, increasing class size, etc. And do you really want to share your classroom with people up to your mother's age, perhaps even the mother of one of your classmates?

Btw, what message exactly are you trying to convey with " :pac::pac::pac: " ?

Making It Bad

DancingQueen:) wrote: »

I'd disagree with this. I was in a maths class in England and in America and i thought the honours maths classes here were way harder. In AP math in America for 16 year olds they were doing basic algebra, things we'd learn in first year. Maybe it's not like that everywhere but that's what i saw. I also don't think honours maths is easy, with practise it gets easier sure but i think it takes a lot of work and effort.

America and England make up a small percentage of the world. I'm talking Eastern Europe, India, China and so on. America is a very mixed bag because of its large size, quality of education differs greatly from school to school.

Seloth

TBH if theres note enough f**king stress.I'm not even going for high points,SOmehwere around 350-360 and I'm as stressed as those peopel going for medicine in my school.

randylonghorn

Seloth wrote: »

TBH if theres note enough f**king stress.I'm not even going for high points,SOmehwere around 350-360 and I'm as stressed as those peopel going for medicine in my school.

Yeah, I would imagine there is a lot of people stressing out all right. The LC and the points race has been set up in such a way that it is stressful enough, without the fact that there has been a significant increase in CAO applicants both last year and this.

The reality is that worrying about it won't help (yes, I know that's easy for me to say!). Do your work, set time aside for it and actually DO it rather than spending time thinking about CAO or whatever, set a reasonable amount of time aside as well to relax and exercise and socialise, get a proper night's sleep, try to eat relatively healthily. That's all you can do ... and that will all help with the stress as well.

Seloth

Yeah I'm trying to atm.

Didnt help today though when I was yelled at by the principal and then another teacher because I'm showing little work or interest..I cam hardly say to the guy I'm stressed out of because they'd only throw it back about blah blah blah so is everyone but all I cna say is Im not everyone,and neither is everyone else .Also if I said I hate the place he'd honestly say why dont you leave or why havent you:(

*braves up man-hood*Litrally in tears when I left school today((Kicked out early causs I didnt have history project done for sometime now)) and being given out n all directions dosent help(Atleast home has come around now .

Made out a study plan before that incident happened heh and shopuld work out .

Teutorix

Anyone complaining about mature students just STFU and read

Mature students apply through the central applications office but not through the ordinary channel for school leavers, there is a set amount of places for mature students separate to the school leaving applicants and the amount of mature student applications does not affect course points* so lay off the mature students.
*to the best of my understanding

Professional Griefer

Teutorix wrote: »

Anyone complaining about mature students just STFU and read

Mature students apply through the central applications office but not through the ordinary channel for school leavers, there is a set amount of places for mature students separate to the school leaving applicants and the amount of mature student applications does not affect course points* so lay off the mature students.
*to the best of my understanding

Pretty sure thats correct. Its the 'mature students'(eg, the old(ish?) people, like 20+) who are applying by means of their Leaving Cert. So they're pretty much the same as us.

randylonghorn

Teutorix wrote: »

...

Mostly you're right ... but mature students can also apply by the same process as you, either by using their LC results from a previous year or perhaps because they are sitting it now.

However, most people who use LC from a previous year aren't really in the "mature" category (over 23 acc. to govt.), they are just a year or so older than you lot, having taken a year or two out.

And the second sub-group mentioned conform to Jellybeans92's demand that everyone must sit LC in the year they apply to college, and there should be no alternative route! :pac:

randylonghorn

Ix Deadmau5 wrote: »

... the old(ish?) people, like 20+) ...

:eek:

Banned!!

Actually, on second thoughts get back here! Nutslapping you will give me much more pleasure!! :pac:

Teutorix

randylonghorn wrote: »

Mostly you're right ... but mature students can also apply by the same process as you, either by using their LC results from a previous year or perhaps because they are sitting it now.

Well i was looking at it from a literal perspective where a mature student = over 23, which is what the term "mature student" means in the CAO's eyes.

Also people who might have had to take a year out (to work so they could afford to go to college) shouldnt be excluded from applying a year late, thats just a tad fascist isn't it?

randylonghorn

Teutorix wrote: »

Well i was looking at it from a literal perspective where a mature student = over 23, which is what the term "mature student" means in the CAO's eyes.

I know, read rest of post

But a lot of people in this thread are basically thinking of it it as "anyone older than me / who did not leave school this year".

Teutorix wrote: »

Also people who might have had to take a year out (to work so they could afford to go to college) shouldnt be excluded from applying a year late, thats just a tad fascist isn't it?

As far as I'm concerned, no-one should be excluded, from 17 to 70(+).

Teutorix

randylonghorn wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned, no-one should be excluded, from 17 to 70(+).

Yes personally i believe that if anyone wishes to educate themselves they should be free to do so.

Nice to see you again randy, night.

rebel girl 15

Teutorix wrote: »

Anyone complaining about mature students just STFU and read

Mature students apply through the central applications office but not through the ordinary channel for school leavers, there is a set amount of places for mature students separate to the school leaving applicants and the amount of mature student applications does not affect course points* so lay off the mature students.
*to the best of my understanding

Yep, link is in my post http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64306370&postcount=84

I agree, lay off the mature students, from my experience, they are definately among the hardest working students in any course!

rebel girl 15

randylonghorn wrote: »

I know, read rest of post

But a lot of people in this thread are basically thinking of it it as "anyone older than me / who did not leave school this year".
As far as I'm concerned, no-one should be excluded, from 17 to 70(+).

I completely agree. There was a guy who was 75 (I think) graduated UCC with a degree in the last conferrings. Some people drop out of their course and reapply through the CAO the next year, because they have found that the course doesn't suit.

Its not the students fault, its the way the points system and examinations system are set up in Ireland, it is wrong!

felic

Exactly.
To these LC students complaining about 'things not being fair'... welcome to the effects of a Recession and a country in which the government doesn't give two hoots about anything aside from their own salaries.

ayumi

i understand this but what my opinion on this is that like someone who here siad that they should go through the cao system & leaving cert as previous leaving certs are marked differently and also the exams differ.

like every person in this country who did there leaving cert and went to college through the leaving cert without any stress just straight forward.

im a leaving cert student and im afraid on what will happen in august when cao gives out the results and college places.

and im throwing this q out to anyone who could explain,
why is ireland suffering like this look at other european countries educational systems they suffered but solved it so why cant ireland do they same as them?

cork*girl

obviously everyone is intitled to their education and I dont have any problem with the mature students at all or people applying to cao..


Just the system clearly isnt working..
also I might add when I did post my msg.. I was fairly stressed about the whole thing. So apologies!! :P
my parents nearly thought it was a good thing!? "sure it just means that you have to work a little harder.. thats all" grr

felic

Dont worry about it cork*girl. Its a hot topic and everyone involved is upset by this cos in essence, it really isn't a fair system.

The entry process to third level education has really become a joke. And its scary to think what will happen next.

It started with 'fees for all if you want a third level education'. No points nothing. you picked your course, came up with the money and off you went.

Then that became unreasonable, so they brought in fees with a point system.

Then that was rendered unfair so they brought in free fees for all but a vicious points system.

Now they are again, letting the fees and points creep back in so how long do you think it will take them to reintroduce 'Fees for all' to do away with the vicious and unrealistic points system? Especially in terms of whats happening in the economy. There simply is not money there anymore to sustain free education.
And so, in the not too distant future, we will be back to square one with all this with the system they had 50 years ago; which is incredible and proof beyond doubt that the department and powers that be really have no idea what they are doing!

You have a broken economy, thousands of skilled people out of work, no money in the banks to provide loans, no incentives to get people back into work, yet social welfare schemes to fund people to get back into education... which was already a sector bursting its resource capacity. So all they have caused now is a crash in the finance department, a crash in the health department, and now a crash in the education department. How long will it take for the entire deck of cards to come crashing down.