Record number of CAO applications / likely effect on points

Reillyman

Listen mate, I'm don't mean to make a generalisation people, and maybe I'm picking up the wrong end of the stick, but from what I gather from your post, it seems you will welcome a re-introduction of fees. If that's the case it just shows how far out of touch the people in South Dublin are with the rest of the world.

Listen lads, the system we have at the moment is actually really fair. College courses are allocated to the people who have worked hardest and performed best. For thoses who are more "acamdemically challenged" there are exemptions. For those who cannot afford it, there are grants. The system is practically totally fair, apart from the various grind schools that give massive advantage to the priviliged.

Yeah?

randylonghorn

ayumi wrote: »

i understand this but what my opinion on this is that like someone who here siad that they should go through the cao system & leaving cert as previous leaving certs are marked differently and also the exams differ.

In my experience, there has been grades inflation in LC (on average anyway, not nec. in every subject). So it is YOU and your cohort who are at an (unfair? ) advantage relative to those who did their LC say 10 years ago.

ayumi wrote: »

i understand this but what my opinion on this is that like someone who here siad that they should go through the cao system & leaving cert ...

like every person in this country who did there leaving cert and went to college through the leaving cert without any stress just straight forward.

Ok, we have been talking a lot in abstracts, let's take an example of a real live person, someone I know. We'll call her "Anne".

Anne did her LC in 2002. She was a good student, bright, worked hard. She was set to do very well in her LC. Six months before the exams Anne's mother was diagnosed with a terminal illness. After a lot of suffering, in and out of hospital, she died about 6 weeks before the exams. As you can imagine, all of this had an effect on Anne's study, despite her best efforts to keep up and concentrate on her course. She achieved a reasonably good LC, but well below what might have been expected of her (by say about 100 points). She did not get the courses she was interested in and had applied for, or at least none that really interested her.

Anne thought about repeating, but after all that had happened during the year the thought of going back right then wasn't appealing. She decided she might work for a year or two, and then reconsider her options. The Celtic Kitten was in full swing, so she applied for and got a job in an office locally.

She had done accounting, French and German for Leaving, and these, with Maths, were the subjects she had always liked most. These subjects were relevant to the company she worked with, as they did a lot of business abroad, and after about a year Anne found herself transferred from what was basically a junior receptionist's job to a job as a kind of junior / assistant / receptionist / general "go-for" in the Foreign Accounts Department. She decided to take some evening classes to brush up on her languages, and soon found herself chatting as much in French and German in work as in English, so that her fluency improved significantly. Over the years she also took some intensive accountancy classes in a local college, and attended any in-service offered by the company as well.

Anne's hard work and especially her language skills were noticed, and when the PA to the Head of her section moved on, she was offered the job. She loved it, and took on more and more responsibility as time passed, including travelling abroad a fair bit on business, both with her boss and by degrees increasingly by herself.

Everything was good until the recession began to bite. The company began scaling back operations, and a trickle of staff began to be let go, or not replaced when someone retired, etc.

Anne was not by any means the first out the door, but as the trickle grew to a flow, and in the end the company cut staff by ~40%, there were many people who had been in the company far longer than her, and she was eventually told that she was being let go.

With hardly any jobs going, she was at a severe disadvantage without a degree, so she has decided to go to college and has applied for a degree in international business with languages.

Now ... the 6 million dollar question! Anne speaks two languages at a better level than most graduates, has a lot of experience of business abroad, good IT and practical accountancy skills, and over six years experience in a relevant and very challenging post. Do you really think she should be required to go back and repeat her Leaving Cert and learn stair na ghaeilge and Irish poetry and quotations from King Lear in order to apply for this course?

Bear in mind that ...

... Anne will not be competing directly with you and your peers for a place;

... if all such people are required to go back and repeat LC, this will put huge additional pressure on an education system already under budgetary pressure, and will probably result in further cutbacks in staffing and subjects in schools.

What do you think, ayumi? (and indeed jellybeans 92 and anyone else who has been arguing this case)

ayumi wrote: »

im a leaving cert student and im afraid on what will happen in august when cao gives out the results and college places.

As many are, understandably, but realise that the vast majority of this extra pressure is coming from your own peers who instead of taking a gap year or two to work or to go to Oz or the US etc., or applying for an apprenticeship in a construction area, are now opting to go to college immediately. An additional factor is that people are afraid that full fees will be re-introduced in the next few years.

ayumi wrote: »

and im throwing this q out to anyone who could explain,
why is ireland suffering like this look at other european countries educational systems they suffered but solved it so why cant ireland do they same as them?

I'm not sure I understand the question. What exactly have the education systems in other European countries suffered and solved that we are cocking up? (probably a lot of things to be honest, but what exactly are you referring to? )

randylonghorn

Reillyman wrote: »

Listen mate, I'm don't mean to make a generalisation people, and maybe I'm picking up the wrong end of the stick, but from what I gather from your post, it seems you will welcome a re-introduction of fees.

I'm not reading that in what he wrote, Reillyman. I don't want to see the re-introduction of fees on principle, yet I would agree with much of felic's post as an assessment of the reality of the current situation, and the way it is likely to move in the short to medium-term. That doesn't mean either of us WANT to see fees re-introduced.

ayumi

arent we as students like others who have done their leaving cert and took a gap year,arent we intitle to this like "Anne" .
also to explain how other countries like norway,finland and sweden spend more money into eduction and now the system is still well and no suffering like the irish system.

felic

This discussion is getting us nowhere and wires are getting crossed al over the place.

Fact of the matter is... there's an increase in CAO applications this year. Tough Beeswax. Get on with your study and look after your own career.

Lynkx

felic wrote: »

This discussion is getting us nowhere and wires are getting crossed al over the place.

Fact of the matter is... there's an increase in CAO applications this year. Tough Beeswax. Get on with your study and look after your own career.

Agreed. Or just move outta the country, better oppurtunities else where.

felic

And whats more... if they go down the route of forcing these applicants who are applying solely on their leaving cert results. to sit these exams in June so they standards are the same... factor in this..

Project work would be out the window for such applicants. Those are meant to be surpervised and where would these applicants even submit them?

And oral exams in languages would be out cos where would they sit that exam?

So you'd be looking at these people just sitting to do the paper in June, and their marks would be 100% based on that paper.

Is that fair?

And keep in mind, the exams have gotten miles easier in the last few years with the changes made to the syllabus and exam format. These applicants would pick their 6 subjects based on what they already have degrees in... like Biology, Chemistry, Accounting, Physics, Maths, French, Spanish, German, Geography, and so on.
The numbers of students then getting 600 points would rocket!

Is that fair?

rebel girl 15

randylonghorn wrote: »

In my experience, there has been grades inflation in LC (on average anyway, not nec. in every subject). So it is YOU and your cohort who are at an (unfair? ) advantage relative to those who did their LC say 10 years ago.

As well as a grades inflation in the LC, there has been a decrease in the value of a degree as well, with many people forced to do a masters to have a better chance to get into a job

The___________

felic wrote: »

And keep in mind, the exams have gotten miles easier in the last few years with the changes made to the syllabus and exam format. These applicants would pick their 6 subjects based on what they already have degrees in... like Biology, Chemistry, Accounting, Physics, Maths, French, Spanish, German, Geography, and so on.
The numbers of students then getting 600 points would rocket!

Is that fair?

True,imagine letting someone with 3 or 4 years living or working in France loose on the LC French paper.

felic

It would be like join the dots in senior infants for them!

The___________

felic wrote: »

It would be like join the dots in senior infants for them!

Once you've spent some time living in a country and using a language everyday it really becomes second nature,my older brother spent a year and a half in France working and he practically fluent.

randylonghorn

ayumi wrote: »

arent we as students like others who have done their leaving cert and took a gap year,arent we intitle to this like "Anne" .

Anne will be assessed on the basis of an application form and a portfolio, including CV, evidence of courses completed including her LC and also courses she has done since (accredited or non-accredited), evidence of experiential learning etc., and an interview. She may also have to do tests to ensure that she is in fact able to demonstrate the learning she claims (I'm not sure of the exact procedure for the course she is applying for - colleges differ). Basically, she will be assessed for entry under some type of APEL system (Accreditation of Prior Experiential Learning). Anne's learning has taken place in an non-formal and non-traditional setting; her assessment will also have to be non-traditional.

These routes into third level are currently only available to "mature" students as defined by government, i.e. over 23, although some similar methods are used for a small number of courses for applicants your age: e.g. prospective art students submit a portfolio, there are interviews for courses like primary teaching, etc.

There is a logic to restricting entry to third level by this route to those over 23 (though one could argue about the exact age which is appropriate). They are based on assessing the additional learning someone has gathered from experience, usually from work experience, and from training or education which may not have been formally accredited.

Someone of 17 - 18 simply doesn't have this type of experiential learning, or at least not a significant amount of it.

ayumi wrote: »

also to explain how other countries like norway,finland and sweden spend more money into eduction and now the system is still well and no suffering like the irish system.

Hmmm .... well, I'm no economist, but I'll try to suggest a few of the likely factors at least.

Take Sweden, for example. Sweden embarked on industrialisation at the start of the 19th century, when Ireland was still an essentially agrarian economy, and one which was leaking much of its revenue to Britain. Sweden had advantages in terms of good natural resources, esp. forestry, iron and (since slightly later) home-produced hydro-electric power. It built up a strong engineering sector in particular, and has traditionally had a significant foreign export trade. It managed to stay neutral through two world wars, unlike most of mainland Europe. Above all, the Swedish people have traditionally accepted a very high rate of taxation (about twice that in Ireland) in return for excellent social services, including health and education systems. Education is free all the way to university, and a high proportion of Swedish people attend, leading to a highly educated and skilled workforce. So, all in all, we are talking about a highly developed export-oriented mixed economy developed in a consistent manner for well over a century, with a very high tax-rate but also, in return, an excellent level of services, esp. in health and education. Such an economy is in a good position to weather a recession with, sure, some tightening of belts, but nothing catastrophic.

Ireland, on the other hand, saw little effort to industrialise until the Lemass era. We had little in the line of ores or other natural resources apart from our land, and agriculture in all developed nations has been dwindling as a source of employment and profit. One could argue that our other major natural resource is our landscape, as opposed to our land, as it supports tourism, but again, tourism is a luxury good and will always be severely affected in time of recession (apart altogether from the fact that half the country must be doing a nightly rain-dance in their sleep, judging by the weather the last couple of summers!). Tourism is also very dependent on labour and on labour costs, and for other reasons these rose sharply over the last 10 years, making us much less competitive in this arena.

With the help of EU membership, and policies and grants geared to attracting multi-national industry, combined with relatively low wage costs and a highly skilled workforce, Ireland finally hit the good times towards the end of the last century. Gradually, in the early years of the new century, everything seemed to be coming right. Unemployment fell, tourism boomed with the low airfares and improved roads / hotels / facilities, people had jobs, Irish emigrants started coming home, we even had immigrants from other countries. The construction industry boomed as a result, and the government had money (some of it from Europe) for urban renewal schemes and rural renewal schemes and what not.

And then we lost the run of ourselves, as a people and as a country. If a few incentive scheme had jump-started the construction boom, then obviously they were a good idea, and should be continued for ever! Our population was rising fast, therefore we needed lots more houses, even if they were in estates tagged on to villages of a church, a pub and two houses in Co. Leitrim, with the occupiers commuting daily to Dublin! The construction industry became the lifeblood of our economy, and everyone forgot that you can't export houses!!! Prices rose to ridiculous levels. Banks were borrowing abroad and advancing unbelievable sums to developers to buy land and build houses to sell at equally unbelievable prices, and loaning equally unbelievable sums to people to buy those houses. It couldn't last, and it didn't.

We might have had a softer landing if the government had moved to curb the over-heated market, or if the banks and developers had been less greedy, but all three closed their eyes and convinced themselves and each other that it would last for ever. So when the bubble burst, it burst with a big loud bang. Global recession hit, as it tends to do in cycles, and we began to feel the effects. But unlike Sweden, we weren't in a good position to survive it ... we had created all the seeds for our own super-recession as the housing bubble burst and sprayed rotten loans all over the economy. The government decided that protecting the banks and the developers was the priority, and hocked the country to the bank guarantee scheme and NAMA for billions of pounds. The ordinary citizen will be paying for the debacle for years, probably decades, both as a taxpayer and as a houseowner and mortgageholder. Taxes are rising, spending is being cut, and areas like social welfare, education and health will always be the easy targets.

Depressing, isn't it?!

We should probably note in passing that Sweden had a smaller version of the housing boom / bust cycle in the 80's, also set off by too high rates of lending, from which it took them years to recover. However, with a mature economy on a strong foundation, they were better able to weather it than we were, and their economy has well recovered at this point Actually, our boom-to-bust housing story has happened often before, in many other places, but nobody wanted to acknowledge that during the boom ... we would be different, Ireland would beat the odds!!

Yeah ... right!! :rolleyes:

randylonghorn

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

As well as a grades inflation in the LC, there has been a decrease in the value of a degree as well, with many people forced to do a masters to have a better chance to get into a job

hmmm ... I would agree that there has probably been some grades inflation at third level as well, in particular that teaching and valuing analytical skills and being able to actually think has lost out to an extent to memory work and regurgitation, just like at Leaving Cert.

The main reasons though that a Masters has become the standard rather than a primary degree are:

(a) with massification at third level, so many people have primary degrees that to give yourself an edge a Masters, even a PhD, is increasingly required.

(b) the global economy is increasingly knowledge-driven, and to compete, we need people with higher levels of specialist knowledge. In the US, for example, a Masters has been standard for most "professional" jobs for a long time.

ayumi

in the news they have said that ireland is one of the countries who will fall in liquidation or bankruptency

felic

Its not difficult to see why that WILL happen ayumi. Thats what I meant earlier in my post about free education not being sustainable in the future. Its not that 'I want' to see the fees back. Thats crazy and no-one 'wants' to see that happening. But it will happen. Anyone getting a place this year will have their fees paid, and each subsequent year paid too. But its upcoming years will see the fees coming back.

If this trend of increasing numbers of applicants occur every year, the government will see it as one of the areas that they 'NEED' to save money on. The average Arts degree for a students lasts what, 3 or 4 years.. it costs about 5000 euros a year to get a student through this, so say 3 years, 15,000. With some courses have 200 places... do the maths! The money we're talking about fast runs into billions!

The back to education scheme in the social welfare pays people to go back to uni. That will be cut or severely made more difficult to qualify to get it.
Students will be required to pay for their courses. Considering the amount of people now on the dole, all these people will make claims for assistance for their kids to get a university place.
Its a vicious cycle.

I dont think people realize just how bad things really are right now in this country. They keep saying that the Recession is over and the economy is back on track to recovery. That may be true but the damage done is going to take a lot longer to recover from.

ayumi

also you can see that european countries have developed ways to get out of the recession and its still effecting some but not all & not sever like ireland

The___________

felic wrote: »

I dont think people realize just how bad things really are right now in this country. They keep saying that the Recession is over and the economy is back on track to recovery. That may be true but the damage done is going to take a lot longer to recover from.

My Dad owns a small business,he employs around 5 staff however the lack of credit coming from the banks is killing him at the moment.
His largest creditors owe him in excess of 40 grand and claim that they simply cannot pay him at the moment,this means that he has not been able to pay himself a wage in over 9 months and faces the prospect of losing his company as the bank are not giving him any leeway whatsoever.

felic

The___________ that is just awful. There's so many business's like your fathers out there right now with their heads just about above water. I really cant understand what's going on in this country that for people such as your Dad who have worked so hard all these years to build something from nothing, do well, and now be faced with joining the back of the dole queue!? Its ridiculous.

The banking system here made a massive mistake, but now they are making the tax payers foot that massive bill, refuse to give out even tiny quantities of credit to small business's and the government is doing nothing to save these people. Their answer is, 'join the dole queue'. Almost as if the social welfare money is delivered by the magic fairies every night.

The reality is, a person like your Dad can continue to really suffer like this, watch his business slide more and more, watch his bills mount up, suffer massive stress... or he can put it all on hold, sign on like the 14% of the country are doing now, claim medical aid, claim this allowance and that allowance and have some form of manageable income to support his family?
It doesnt even knock on the door of sanity whats happening!
And the senior ministers insist on their worth of salaries in excess of 100k, 200k, 400k!!!!!

I really hope he manages to get through this and manages to keep his head above water. Unreal.

felic

On the papers today... "2012, Fees will be back"!

_Bella_

felic wrote: »

On the papers today... "2012, Fees will be back"!

Great just in time for me... Oh well my parents already expected it.

felic

There will be WAR over it. But yes, parents have to be prepared for this and preparing NOW!

Orlaladuck

Are the fees definite or is it just being hinted at?

Conor108

felic wrote: »

On the papers today... "2012, Fees will be back"!

This might be a stupid question. Probably is. If fees come back in 2012 does that mean that we (people going into college this september) will have to pay fees for our last 2/3 years?

Or is it just people starting from 2012?

Orlaladuck

Nope it means us I'm pretty sure. I know it was any year from the 2009 L.C on has to pay fees whenever they arrive =[.

Conor108

Ah well, sure only 2 years

felic

Not hinted at, fact. They said when the current government goes, so too will the fees.
In answer of the second question.. no. What will happen is that the fees will be gradually brought back in. So say you go in this year, your fees are paid, and every subsequent year will be paid too. But people going in in September 2012, will have to pay for 1st year, then second year, third, fourth.. and so on... so in 2016, EVERYONE will be paying fees again.

Its scary and its sad, but there's no way around this.
If they impose a blanket sweep on students forced to pay for college, whatever year they are in in 2012, the system would fall apart because part of the entrance process for college, is the fee factor. A student might be top of the class but might not be able to afford the fees, even on a grant scheme. What are they to do? Be forced to drop out? That just cant happen.

I can see the Leaving Cert getting back to the standard it was 15 years ago again as a result of this. They'll make the exams harder so that students dont get the high marks, even if the points for courses drop... that way people wont be complaining about it being not fair they didnt get their place.

Cian92

First they begin cutting civil servants pay, now fees are back. Minimum wage will be next.

briankirby

Cian92 wrote: »

First they begin cutting civil servants pay, now fees are back. Minimum wage will be next.

I think fees will have to be introduced if we are to get the country out of this mess.However,i fell that courses in which graduates have a good career outlook should be charged more

H2student

in 2012, the system would fall apart < Just as the prophecy foretold!

Seriously though, terrible that fees would be back. It would be so great if the government would lend us the money for University at low interest and let us pay them back when we get a job or something like that.

qwertplaywert

briankirby wrote: »

I think fees will have to be introduced if we are to get the country out of this mess.However,i fell that courses in which graduates have a good career outlook should be charged more

I think its clear that bringing in fees would greatly help with the financing of the education system, but it would have to be done in conjuction with a change in the grant system , which just isn't going to happen.