So Are Water Charges Coming In This Year Or Not?

LiberalUtopia

Will water charges be applied to householders this year, or next?

The propaganda machine has been in full swing for years now and is reaching a climax. Those signs on the main roads in and out of Dublin city are like something out of George Orwell. No doubt we'll hear a lot less about leaking pipes once the private contracts have been handed out (due to their inherent efficiency of course).

Biggins

O' I'd say yes. Give it time.
The leeches hanging on to Fianna Fail (for their ever increasing TD pensions?), the Greens, will see to it that their disgusting legacy will come to completion.

StudentDad

Oh yes we'll probably end up paying per litre - and whatever few quid the govt. gets through gouging householders will not go back into modernising the water system - it'll go into paying for other 'essentials' like TD's junkets and pensions.

SD

yoshytoshy

I think water charges are a good thing ,but only if the whole thing is privatised.
Theres no reason to have so many necessities funded by our taxes. At least if it is privatised ,we'll get value for money thats spent on it.

StudentDad

Water charges could be a good thing - but the way this country is run it simply won't be a good thing. The govt. will treat it as yet another revenue stream and god help the poor divil who refuses to pay up. The money like our road tax will go to pay for anything the govt. sees fit - aka - junkets - and not one penny will go to refurbishing and modernising the water system around the country.

SD

bmaxi

yoshytoshy wrote: »

I think water charges are a good thing ,but only if the whole thing is privatised.
Theres no reason to have so many necessities funded by our taxes. At least if it is privatised ,we'll get value for money thats spent on it.

Water is one of the things that should not be privatised. Water is essential to maintain life, why should it be used to make billionaires of Cowen's buddies. Is it not enough FF gave our gas away?
If water charges are to come in they should remain in state control, surely something has been learned from the horror stories in the U.K. The argument agains is always that it will take so much money to upgrade the system, well that was the argument in the U.K. as well but they still manage to pour over 30% of their water down the drain despite ever increasing water charges.

astrofool

It's still our water, it's just that every public body in Ireland is run by idiots. At least by privatising, and introducing competition, there might be a chance that it will be run efficiently.

I'd cringe to think what a publicly run company would do with "our gas", we'd probably use it to put a big flame out of the spire.

Macha

bmaxi wrote: »

Water is one of the things that should not be privatised. Water is essential to maintain life

So are food and electricity. Should these also be free of charge, paid through our taxes?

Taxipete29

taconnol wrote: »

So are food and electricity. Should these also be free of charge, paid through our taxes?

Electricity is not essential to maintain life

Vyse

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Electricity is not essential to maintain life

And food doesn't fall from the sky:D

gandalf

There is no way we should have to pay water charges until they get the delivery systems sorted so there is no wastage only then would I consider it fair to pay charges. There is no way I want the water systems to be privatised. The same way congestion charges, bus corridors and stupid speed limits shouldn't be introduced until there is a proper integrated public transport system. We are letting these idiots both in Government and Councils away with far too much at this stage.

conorhal

Does anybody know what the FG/Labor position on water charges are? I'd imagine it would take time to implement and would provide the opposition with a popular electoral platform to campaign against.
Personally, when it comes to further public sector spending I'm of the opinion that government should get their own house in order before puting their hands back in my pocket. Take Clare county council. They have built themselves shiny new high spec offices and had the highest spend by any council last year when it came to foreign travel and junkets, yet they have the worst water infrastructure in the country. When you see spending priorities that are so askew you have to think to yourself that they are taking the mickey.

deadhead13

The supply of water is the responsibility of the 88 local authorities. 58% of these authorities revenue comes from business rates and from goods and services, 42% from central government. It seems to be implied that we are currently being supplied with water for free, but this isn't the case.

djpbarry

LiberalUtopia wrote: »

The propaganda machine has been in full swing for years now and is reaching a climax. Those signs on the main roads in and out of Dublin city are like something out of George Orwell.

Uh oh, I think I hear the hyperbole police...

yoshytoshy wrote: »

Theres no reason to have so many necessities funded by our taxes. At least if it is privatised ,we'll get value for money thats spent on it.

You mean like the value for money provided by Eircom?

StudentDad wrote: »

The money like our road tax will go to pay for anything the govt. sees fit - aka - junkets - and not one penny will go to refurbishing and modernising the water system around the country.

Seeing as how funds are presently being invested in modernising the distribution system, it seems rather unlikely that “not one penny” of a proposed water charge will be spent on said system.

deadtiger wrote: »

There is no way we should have to pay water charges until they get the delivery systems sorted...

Which will be paid for with... what exactly?

deadtiger wrote: »

...so there is no wastage only then would I consider it fair to pay charges.

No wastage? None whatsoever? 100% efficiency?

deadtiger wrote: »

The same way congestion charges, bus corridors and stupid speed limits shouldn't be introduced until there is a proper integrated public transport system.

Unless I am very much mistaken, we don’t pay congestion charges in this country, what speed limits has to do with the state finances is anyone’s guess, and you want to get rid of bus lanes, but demand an integrated public transport system at the same time? Hmm...

Liam Byrne

Since our existing taxes won't be paying for this anymore, then if they reduced the existing taxes before charging us, I'd accept it.

Otherwise, no.

We're charged on the double or triple for too many things as it is (e.g. Crippling VRT + Road Tax + Crippling Excise on Petrol + Tolled Roads being the worst).

djpbarry

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Since our existing taxes won't be paying for this anymore, then if they reduced the existing taxes before charging us, I'd accept it.

Would it not be reasonable to consider the possibility that, at present, tax revenue is simply too low to cover the maintenance and/or upgrading of the water distribution system?

Liam Byrne

djpbarry wrote: »

Would it not be reasonable to consider the possibility that, at present, tax revenue is simply too low to cover the maintenance and/or upgrading of the water distribution system?

No, it wouldn't.

If they sorted out the overpayment and unvouched expenses and waste, there would be plenty tax revenue to go around.

And there's no point hitting people who can't afford it for even more tax, because you'll hit a point where there's no point in working.

Scofflaw

djpbarry wrote: »

Would it not be reasonable to consider the possibility that, at present, tax revenue is simply too low to cover the maintenance and/or upgrading of the water distribution system?

No, no! That would involve the idea that higher taxes could be necessary, and higher taxes can never be necessary, even when we want better services. It's always the case that eliminating the inefficiencies in the government would allow us to have better services and lower taxes.*

amused,
Scofflaw

*at least Fianna Fáil have successfully bought several elections on that basis

schween

It's funny how they say our water system is a shambles due to lack of funding.

And people say they won't pay water charges until the system is brought up to standard, with funding.

gandalf

djpbarry wrote: »

Which will be paid for with... what exactly?

As someone already stated the councils seem hell bent on wasting money without getting their own houses in order. Streamline and become effiecient then they can come for more money.

No wastage? None whatsoever? 100% efficiency?

Well I would expect a far better situation than the current one in certain areas where up to 58% of our drinking water supply is lost through leaks.

(page 85 of the Local Government Management Services Board Service Indicators in Local Authorities 2008 Report will give you all the figures)

Unless I am very much mistaken, we don’t pay congestion charges in this country, what speed limits has to do with the state finances is anyone’s guess, and you want to get rid of bus lanes, but demand an integrated public transport system at the same time? Hmm...

It has to do with stupid ill thought out decisions by Government. Sort out the problems with efficiencies before you start to charge people more. Get the priorities right going forward. Ensure we are getting value for our tax monies be it with employees or projects. At the moment we are no where near that situation.

BTW where did I say that I wanted to get rid of bus corridors.

gandalf

Scofflaw wrote: »

No, no! That would involve the idea that higher taxes could be necessary, and higher taxes can never be necessary, even when we want better services. It's always the case that eliminating the inefficiencies in the government would allow us to have better services and lower taxes.*

amused,
Scofflaw

*at least Fianna Fáil have successfully bought several elections on that basis

You may make light of the situation but there are inefficiencies in all areas of the Government and people are sick and tired of being taxed both directly and indirectly and seeing that money being wasted.

If these are addressed then maybe there will be no need to raise more taxes to bring the network up to spec but if they did have to then I and alot more taxpayers would be happy to pay our share. At the moment all we see is a black hole that is consuming more funds without any accountability.

Liam Byrne

Scofflaw wrote: »

.....even when we want better services.

Sorry, but (a) I'm happy enough with the water service and didn't ask for a better one and (b) we had a local Group Water Scheme that we paid for ourselves (both annually and one-off equipment/repair -wise when it needed it). The local authority took it over. And now the Government want to charge us for the privilege ? No thanks.

Macha

deadtiger wrote: »

If these are addressed then maybe there will be no need to raise more taxes to bring the network up to spec but if they did have to then I and alot more taxpayers would be happy to pay our share. At the moment all we see is a black hole that is consuming more funds without any accountability.

Really? Are you aware of the relevant figures?

gandalf

taconnol wrote: »

Really? Are you aware of the relevant figures?

Don't have those figures on hand but according to Gormley it costs around €1billion per annum to treat water for public consumption.

Eliot Rosewater

I wouldn't consider water charges a tax. Its a charge for a service, funnily enough.

Of course it should be introduced. People should have to pay for these kind of services they receive! The more water you use, that is the more you cost the water distribution network, the more you pay. This idea that its a "right" and thus should be free doesn't hold water (:D). As another poster said, should food be free?

Ideally there would be a law stipulating that only water charges revenue could be spent on the water network, and vica versa. Ditto for the plethora of vehicle taxes for the roads. I think that not paying for services you use and instead socializing costs is not "fair" and just plain stupid.

Im unsure about privatization. Could competition be introduced into the water sector? Ive only one pipe into my house!

Scofflaw

deadtiger wrote: »

You may make light of the situation but there are inefficiencies in all areas of the Government and people are sick and tired of being taxed both directly and indirectly and seeing that money being wasted.

If these are addressed then maybe there will be no need to raise more taxes to bring the network up to spec but if they did have to then I and alot more taxpayers would be happy to pay our share. At the moment all we see is a black hole that is consuming more funds without any accountability.

And that's after a decade of "lower taxes, better services". Something is clearly not right.

cordially,
Scofflaw

bmaxi

taconnol wrote: »

So are food and electricity. Should these also be free of charge, paid through our taxes?

Perhaps you could point out where I said water should be free of charge. I said it shouldn't be privatised.

yoshytoshy

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Im unsure about privatization. Could competition be introduced into the water sector? Ive only one pipe into my house!

I'm not well up on how different service companies operate ,but gas in britain is available from different suppliers and one pipe is used for that.
I think it's probably down to discounts for companies renting parts of the network or something.

With regards to water being life,

We are not the only country in the world who has tap water ,so to suggest it's a necessity and we can't do without it is just silly.
A private company can't charge people for something they haven't used ,the government on the other hand wants to charge everyone the same amount.

It's absolutely ridiculous to suggest charging a blanket charge for water ,just to cover initial costs of upgrading. It will just end up a mess three or four years in ,as soon as the government has gotten use to the cash flow and people forget about what happened this year.

trapsagenius

StudentDad wrote: »

Water charges could be a good thing - but the way this country is run it simply won't be a good thing. The govt. will treat it as yet another revenue stream and god help the poor divil who refuses to pay up. The money like our road tax will go to pay for anything the govt. sees fit - aka - junkets - and not one penny will go to refurbishing and modernising the water system around the country.

SD

That's the spirit!

StudentDad

trapsagenius wrote: »

That's the spirit!

Ah now my 'spirit' is the odd glass of Jameson - the councils answer to 'cleaner water' where I live is, 'ach sher throw in some more Chlorine there Dave coz we can't be arsed building proper facilities.'

So I have to use a damned water filter to make my water drinkable! Only in good auld Oireland!

SD

Overheal

conorhal wrote: »

Does anybody know what the FG/Labor position on water charges are? I'd imagine it would take time to implement and would provide the opposition with a popular electoral platform to campaign against.
Personally, when it comes to further public sector spending I'm of the opinion that government should get their own house in order before puting their hands back in my pocket. Take Clare county council. They have built themselves shiny new high spec offices and had the highest spend by any council last year when it came to foreign travel and junkets, yet they have the worst water infrastructure in the country. When you see spending priorities that are so askew you have to think to yourself that they are taking the mickey.

Delicious. Do we have any sources for this?