Spare a thought for Barry

Permabear

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Riskymove

Nidot wrote: »

3. Low to Middle Ranking Public Servant after 8 years leaving college


- His post paycut wage of 52,800 (based on my own calculations) is still 40% higher than the average industrial wage ( 52,800 / 37,500)

I generally agree with you but one small point

I dont agree that the average industrial wage is the correct comparator for salary of college graduates...I would personally expect their average earnings to have been in excess of that over the last period

Nidot

Riskymove wrote: »

I generally agree with you but one small point

I dont agree that the average industrial wage is the correct comparator for salary of college graduates...I would personally expect their average earnings to have been in excess of that over the last period

Yes I can see your point but I used the average industrial wage more as barometer of where Barry stands in relation to the majority or the country.

I am sure that given that Barry has a college degree would result in a higher salary, but we don't have any information about the education qualifications which Barry has or what sector/role Barry fills, if this information was available then this would make it a more interesting comparisson.

SLUSK

Nidot wrote: »

Yes I can see your point but I used the average industrial wage more as barometer of where Barry stands in relation to the majority or the country.

I am sure that given that Barry has a college degree would result in a higher salary, but we don't have any information about the education qualifications which Barry has or what sector/role Barry fills, if this information was available then this would make it a more interesting comparisson.

I don't agree that a college degre should automatically result in a higher salary. What can a guy with a degree in history offer the market which means he should get pay above the industrial average?

The_Honeybadger

SLUSK wrote: »

I don't agree that a college degre should automatically result in a higher salary. What can a guy with a degree in history offer the market which means he should get pay above the industrial average?

+1 but I think it is a trend that they earn more, and probably shows they can finish a large project that they start. If I was employing somebody and the job didn't require a degree as such, but had a guy with a degree and without who had similar experience i'd almost certainly employ the one with the degree.

Riskymove

SLUSK wrote: »

I don't agree that a college degre should automatically result in a higher salary. What can a guy with a degree in history offer the market which means he should get pay above the industrial average?

my point is that you would not have expected too many college graduates to be working in the industrial sector (other than as engineers, technicians etc who would be paid more than line staff) over the last period

obviously the type of degree does matter to a point

Nidot

Riskymove wrote: »

my point is that you would not have expected too many college graduates to be working in the industrial sector (other than as engineers, technicians etc who would be paid more than line staff) over the last period

obviously the type of degree does matter to a point

Yes that is certainly true. In my profession a degree to a high standard is necessary. This does in my opinion equate to a higher average pay as it is necessary to forego wages earned to achieve this degree.

What sort of premium is attached to a degree though is another point for discussion. For instance, Barry states he has a degree but if ths degree was an Arts degree, with lets say a joint major in History and Philosophy, then the premium attached to that degree would be lower than lets say the premium attached to an engineering degree, on the premise that they're working in a technical field or a field requiring high standards of computation.

ei.sdraob

SLUSK wrote: »

What can a guy with a degree in history offer the market which means he should get pay above the industrial average?

changes

dearg lady wrote: »

As a public sector worker, I wasn't exactly overjoyed with the pension levy and pay cuts but some things just have to be accepted. Letters like Barrys really bother me, because I worry people will turn against the whole public sector based on this. There's a lot of people making a lot of money within the public sector but not everyone.

I suppose I would be at the lower end of the payscales within the public sector but tbh I live a good life. I'll be totally honest here, post pay cut my gross salary is 29,337 pa, net per month(after tax and pension) I earn 1910. To me this is pretty good. I do have a mortgage which at times feels like a noose around my neck(bought at a bad time) if I had my time over would probably not do it, but still we bought well within our means, I can easily afford the mortgage and will still be able to be comfortable if interest rates go up a few %

I'm a contracted employee so trying not to worry too much about what happens when I finish up, it will be extremely difficult I know. Now I can still do nice things, go out, go on holidays, get take aways, buy clothes the odd time, I know all of that will have to stop.

But here in work, I hear people complaining they 'can't survive' the pay cuts and in the next breath tell me about the many holidays they have planned. It's kind of upsetting to hear, when I know plenty of people who are genuinely struggling on social welfare.

I'm quite good with money naturally (a saver ) so I know this stands to me, but sometimes I want to shake people and remind them just how lucky they are!

You don't say what your other half is paid. Your combined income is obviously enough to pay the bills and keep you comfortable.

Some are not so lucky. If you were the sole breadwinner on 29K and you might feel a little different about the income levy, pension levy, paycuts.

Someone posted on another thread that there is a base amount of money each family needs to provide a roof over their head, put food on the table, pay travel costs to work, buy clothing etc.
A family bringing in 29K is closer to that figure than someone on 70K.

I think hitting PS workers on less than 30K with the levies and paycuts was a bit harsh particurlarly when so much concern/consideration was shown to the higher paid civil servants with regard to their paycuts (regular bonus included).

Nidot

changes wrote: »

I think hitting PS workers on less than 30K with the levies and paycuts was a bit harsh particurlarly when so much concern/consideration was shown to the higher paid civil servants with regard to their paycuts (regular bonus included).

I don't think you'll find any disagreement that the decision to overturn the paycuts for the higher paid civil servants was a joke. A complete fudge by the government to allow their closest advisors avoid a paycut.

How they expect people to believe that including a bonus is right is beyond me. A bonus is paid for above average performance when the company is doing well. In the case of these civil servants, they did not show above average performance (i.e. if they had many of the issues in the current recession would not exist) and their employer (i.e. the government) is not performing well.

The idea of including the bonus as part of basic pay is terrible.

dearg lady

changes wrote: »

You don't say what your other half is paid. Your combined income is obviously enough to pay the bills and keep you comfortable.

Some are not so lucky. If you were the sole breadwinner on 29K and you might feel a little different about the income levy, pension levy, paycuts.

Someone posted on another thread that there is a base amount of money each family needs to provide a roof over their head, put food on the table, pay travel costs to work, buy clothing etc.
A family bringing in 29K is closer to that figure than someone on 70K.

I think hitting PS workers on less than 30K with the levies and paycuts was a bit harsh particurlarly when so much concern/consideration was shown to the higher paid civil servants with regard to their paycuts (regular bonus included).

It's not my other half I live with, so what I earn covers all my own costs, and allows me to save also. Perhaps the govt should have hit higher paid civil servants, I am only looking at my own personal situation and saying I can manage and more than that, I can be comfortable.

The_Honeybadger

dearg lady wrote: »

It's not my other half I live with, so what I earn covers all my own costs, and allows me to save also. Perhaps the govt should have hit higher paid civil servants, I am only looking at my own personal situation and saying I can manage and more than that, I can be comfortable.

Really appreciate the honesty good luck when the contract expires hope it is renewed.

Bonzo1970

WalterMitty wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2010/0203/1224263647700.html

Madam, – I am a public servant. As a result of the December 2009 budget a cut of €3,200 has been applied to my annual pay. This is in addition to the pension levy cut that was applied to my pay in March 2009, which resulted in a €2,200 reduction to my net pay.
I am a low- to middle-ranking civil servant and I cannot afford these cuts to my remuneration.
I took out a mortgage on an apartment in Dublin in 2006 at a cost of €375,000, and it is largely unworkable to afford a mortgage of this level while sustaining pay cuts of this magnitude.
It is unfair, unjust and irresponsible to destroy my quality of life in two fell swoops of pay reductions in 10 months. I have worked tirelessly in the public service for the past eight years and I entered the public service on the back of a third-level qualification when other avenues were open to me because I wanted to pursue a meaningful career in the public interest.
This Government targeting of public sector pay has not only turned my quality of life on its head, it has demoralised thousands of honourable and dedicated public servants as a significant proportion of us teeter on the brink of perpetual indebtedness. – Yours, etc,
BARRY FULHAM,
Royal Canal Park,
Dublin 15.

Poor Barry, why dont you pay more taxes to keep him in the quality of life he has become used to. Sure being in one of the best paying public sector's in World is'nt good enough. Barry might even have to work longer hours in future for slightly less pay. Luckily Barry's shopping bill and many other expenses are falling but Barry doesnt mention this. Barry's neighbour who also bought his house in 2006 was not available for comment as he has lost his private sector job , is facing repossesion of the house and is actively seeking employment in Australia

Im not sure what the point of this thread is? Is it to simply snigger? Its a bit simplistic to use the private sector losing jobs jibe when the vast majority in private sector have not or will not lose jobs. We have a huge amounts of temp staff(one of highest in EU) in teaching many of which have lost their jobs. Was cutting Public pay necessary-yes it was. How much it should have been cut is debatable.
What makes the pay cuts hard to stomach is the incessant black propaganda war as lately seen in the ludicrous leading article in Last Sundays Indo. A public sector worker was personally attacked because she "failed" to mention she lost her house when her husband lost his job and not as a result of pay cut. Boot boys.

Stick to budget based arguments and stop creating threads like these, whose sole purpose seems to be that of sniggering.

ixoy

Bonzo1970 wrote: »

Stick to budget based arguments and stop creating threads like these, whose sole purpose seems to be that of sniggering.

How closely did you read this thread? Look at nodit's post - it's very strictly budget related using hard facts and figures. It's nothing to do with sniggering but more to do with putting Barry's cuts into perspective and pointing out that the raw data that we're presented with indicates Barry was in a decent financial position.

Nidot

Also if a complete comparisson was to be made it would have to only include full time staff as contract workers losing their jobs cannot be judged in the same way. The idea of the contract being that at its completion the person is not guaranteed continued employment.

MaceFace

Bonzo1970 wrote: »

Im not sure what the point of this thread is? Is it to simply snigger? Its a bit simplistic to use the private sector losing jobs jibe when the vast majority in private sector have not or will not lose jobs. We have a huge amounts of temp staff(one of highest in EU) in teaching many of which have lost their jobs. Was cutting Public pay necessary-yes it was. How much it should have been cut is debatable.
What makes the pay cuts hard to stomach is the incessant black propaganda war as lately seen in the ludicrous leading article in Last Sundays Indo. A public sector worker was personally attacked because she "failed" to mention she lost her house when her husband lost his job and not as a result of pay cut. Boot boys.

Stick to budget based arguments and stop creating threads like these, whose sole purpose seems to be that of sniggering.

I don't think there is any sniggering. This lady put herself in the public eye by allowing herself to be used as a propaganda tool.

I am angry that I am paying money I earned towards the salaries of people who want to be immune from the pain of recession.

All I ask is that we have equality across the board - no jobs for life, no guaranteed pensions, no pay increases for modernisation.

P. Breathnach

If this thread is about Barry, then I don't think it is a political discussion.

If it is regarded by some as another opportunity to have a go at public servants, then I think it is nothing more than adding to the unpleasantness that we have already encountered here -- ad nauseam.

Bonzo1970

Poor Barry, why dont you pay more taxes to keep him in the quality of life he has become used to. Sure being in one of the best paying public sector's in World is'nt good enough. Barry might even have to work longer hours in future for slightly less pay. Luckily Barry's shopping bill and many other expenses are falling but Barry doesnt mention this. Barry's neighbour who also bought his house in 2006 was not available for comment as he has lost his private sector job , is facing repossesion of the house and is actively seeking employment in Australia

This is sniggering to my mind. I go back to my main point-this next door neighbour that is conjured up -he is statically unlikely to have lost his job. he is 90% unlikely to have lost his job or emigrated. Perhaps Sniggering is wrong word-hyperbole perhaps? Highest paid public servants in the world? A lie.Give me a break. Headline figures are always easy to latch onto like comparing welfare rates. Headline figures compared to UK are high but our social provision is overall is much lower. I have to pay sixty euro's every time I go to a doctor just to cite one difference. Facts not lies please and broaden debate beyond headline figures.

Bonzo1970

MaceFace wrote: »

I don't think there is any sniggering. This lady put herself in the public eye by allowing herself to be used as a propaganda tool.

I am angry that I am paying money I earned towards the salaries of people who want to be immune from the pain of recession.

All I ask is that we have equality across the board - no jobs for life, no guaranteed pensions, no pay increases for modernisation.

Sign me up for all that as a teacher, but then allow me to operate as a private sector worker. Bonuses?Have that please. Can I get rid of pupils who wont perform tasks assigned (well within their ability levels) because if I dont my performance is effected. Im not saying its impossible to have a markets sys within the public sector but it aint straightforward as you seem to think.

Nidot

Bonzo1970 wrote: »

Sign me up for all that as a teacher, but then allow me to operate as a private sector worker. Bonuses?Have that please. Can I get rid of pupils who wont perform tasks assigned (well within their ability levels) because if I dont my performance is effected. Im not saying its impossible to have a markets sys within the public sector but it aint straightforward as you seem to think.

I don't really understand this. This perception that everybody in the private sector receives bonuses.

I work for a very prestigous international financial services company. All the staff employed here have 3rd level degrees to start with and then pursue further qualifications once we start.

None of us receive a bonus neither do any of our competitors. And this would apply to the majority of the staff below management level.

Bonzo1970

Of course I know that-just plucking that off top of head to illustrate point. I would love a school sys that could be run as a company but its problematic-thats my simple point.

Nidot

Bonzo1970 wrote: »

Of course I know that-just plucking that off top of head to illustrate point. I would love a school sys that could be run as a company but its problematic-thats my simple point.

Ya i agree you can't operate a school as a business but thats no reason that you can't operate efficent controls which maximise the ability of the children.

For instance having teachers be prepared to hold parent teacher meetings after school, running training days during the childrens holidays or maybe including a certain number of post school activities in the circulum which teachers would be obliged to attend. None of these ideas are revolutionary and none of them endanger teacher tenure but they could all potentially improve the learning experience for the children.

Nidot

Oh yeah and not allowing teachers pull these changes as soon as they're not happy with a small change to terms and conditions

Bonzo1970

Nidot wrote: »

Ya i agree you can't operate a school as a business but thats no reason that you can't operate efficent controls which maximise the ability of the children.

For instance having teachers be prepared to hold parent teacher meetings after school, running training days during the childrens holidays or maybe including a certain number of post school activities in the circulum which teachers would be obliged to attend. None of these ideas are revolutionary and none of them endanger teacher tenure but they could all potentially improve the learning experience for the children.

I wouldnt disagree with you on most of that but the lead swings both ways. The amount of parents who really dont give a hoot is incredible. What sanctions happen there? We do have new discipline procedures in place for teachers butIm so tired of pointiung out that the fault for so few sackings rests with BOMs not unions.
After school stuff is something I would not sign up for as part of contract. I do some when it suits me.Preparing for classes is my number one priority. Many teachers like myself have done extra curricular for free for years but Im hired to teach and despite misinformation-I teach more than European Norm not less. On a yearly basis. The school year is shorter but you would be hard pressed to find an EU teacher doing more than 18 hours teaching a week. I do 22 across all levels-most EU nations break it into upper and lower SEC. We throw our young teachers into Leaving certs.

Anyway-Im tired of anti teacher threads morphing out of other threads. Not saying thats what you are doing but they usually head that way and I have 3 hours of correcting to do-honestly!

ardmacha

they're not happy with a small change to terms and conditions

I would have thought a 12% pay cut rather more than a small change to terms and conditions.

OMD

ardmacha wrote: »

I would have thought a 12% pay cut rather more than a small change to terms and conditions.

A teacher (according to ASTI) who started work in 2008 will have seen his pay cut by 5.13% in last 2 years when you combine pension levy and pay cut. This is on pretax income and probably represents a cut of 3.5% or so on takehome pay. This is in the context of deflation last year and probably this year. The same holds true for any teacher with less than 25 years experience

rightwingdub

There needs to be further pay cuts in the next budget so the following pay cuts need to be made.

<25,000 5%
25,001-45000 7.5%
45,001-70,000 10%
70,001-100,000 12.5%
100,001-150,000 15%
150,001 onwards 17.5%

Last Decembers pay cuts are not even the tip of the ice berg when it comes to the level of pay cuts that are required if Ireland is not to go bankrupt and I haven't even touched on any future social welfare cutbacks that are necessary.

If your man Barry doesn't like having to take a pay cut than he should quit and find alternative employment in the capitalist private sector instead of continuing to work in the communist public sector. Barry must have been on a decent salary as well and its his own fault for buying a house at over 5 times his salary.

The Express

Private sector worker here:

Cut in base salary: 10%
Commission: cancelled for the forseeable future
Pension and job security: nope
Having a public sector job in the middle of a recession: priceless*


*with apologies to the mastercard ad!

WalterMitty

Bonzo1970 wrote: »

I wouldnt disagree with you on most of that but the lead swings both ways. The amount of parents who really dont give a hoot is incredible. What sanctions happen there? We do have new discipline procedures in place for teachers butIm so tired of pointiung out that the fault for so few sackings rests with BOMs not unions.
After school stuff is something I would not sign up for as part of contract. I do some when it suits me.Preparing for classes is my number one priority. Many teachers like myself have done extra curricular for free for years but Im hired to teach and despite misinformation-I teach more than European Norm not less. On a yearly basis. The school year is shorter but you would be hard pressed to find an EU teacher doing more than 18 hours teaching a week. I do 22 across all levels-most EU nations break it into upper and lower SEC. We throw our young teachers into Leaving certs.

Anyway-Im tired of anti teacher threads morphing out of other threads. Not saying thats what you are doing but they usually head that way and I have 3 hours of correcting to do-honestly!

EU teachers tend to do more weeks but less hours per week. I have yet to see convincing stats . Part of problem with public sector is finding good stats on what they get across EU and exact hours etc.

ardmacha

I have yet to see convincing stats .

Are you Thomas?

Part of problem with public sector is finding good stats on what they get across EU and exact hours etc.

And is such data is available for the private sector? That doesn't seem to stop people pontificating.