Spare a thought for Paddy

North_West_Art

in the USA they are warning people to treat the current 10% unemployment figure as something that will have to be looked upon as a permanent statistic. The same may well apply here in Ireland by the looks of it

The_Honeybadger

WalterMitty wrote: »

Im unemployed at moment. I have an honors degree and capable of doing many of the jobs in the public sector from clerical work to policing to accountancy(part qualified). I would do any full time job in public sector now for 25% less than they currently get paid . I actually got onto several panels for public sector jobs but positions never opened up. Due to medical reasons i havent worked at all in past few years so it's near impossible to get in anywhere in private sector or public sector at present. A job in public sector would also help me with my medical condition as less hours than private and more flexibility and sick days tollerated compared to private.

My sympathies that is a pretty awful situation, looks like the moratorium is here for a while yet but you never know. Did you see the new FAS scheme where unemployed graduates can gain work experience without losing any benefits? Don't know what your level of experience is or if that may be of benefit to you but maybe it could give you an opportunity to further your accountancy study or something by getting an unpaid placement, surely better than being sat at home. I have a few friends who are unemployed and are almost at the point of despair. They are willing to move anywhere in the country for a job but it just ain't happening at the moment. Hope things work out for you.

Guell72

mickeyk wrote: »

You're probably right, however some people are also concerned at the level of borrowing the government are doing and the future of the country under the crippling debt we are running up. It's not all begrudgery, although it is certainly widespread, but that is human nature and is very unlikely to change while we have such dire unemployment problems.

Well if we all paid more tax to bring us into line with the rest of Europe then the level of borrowing would be reduced. but No, we all want the other fella to pay for the deficit. "Dont touch me and all is fine" seems to be the attitude.

It would be so easy to put a massive dent in the level of borrowing, but only if we all take the pain together.

Its all of us who are not paying enough tax (especially those on the low or no rate of tax) who are putting the future generations under crippling debt.

Stark

Yes, let's keep increasing taxes to protect the waste in the public sector that should have been sorted out years ago. There is no limit to how much we can tax the private sector. I will happily work and pay 70% tax and won't just give up and emigrate/go on the dole.

Guell72

WalterMitty wrote: »

Im unemployed at moment. I have an honors degree and capable of doing many of the jobs in the public sector from clerical work to policing to accountancy(part qualified). I would do any full time job in public sector now for 25% less than they currently get paid . I actually got onto several panels for public sector jobs but positions never opened up. Due to medical reasons i havent worked at all in past few years so it's near impossible to get in anywhere in private sector or public sector at present. A job in public sector would also help me with my medical condition as less hours than private and more flexibility and sick days tollerated compared to private.

Well why dont you go around to companies in the private sector and tell them you will do anybodies job for 25% less than the person doing it. And tell them that you can do many of the jobs currently in their companies.
Surely that would be easier than waiting on the public sector to open up.

Guell72

Stark wrote: »

Yes, let's keep increasing taxes to protect the waste in the public sector that should have been sorted out years ago. There is no limit to how much we can tax the private sector. I will happily work and pay 70% tax and won't just give up and emigrate/go on the dole.

There is the problem right there. Mention taking some of the pain and there is a knee jerk reaction. "Its the other fellas fault - dont touch me."

WalterMitty

Guell72 wrote: »

Well if we all paid more tax to bring us into line with the rest of Europe then the level of borrowing would be reduced. but No, we all want the other fella to pay for the deficit. "Dont touch me and all is fine" seems to be the attitude.

It would be so easy to put a massive dent in the level of borrowing, but only if we all take the pain together.

Its all of us who are not paying enough tax (especially those on the low or no rate of tax) who are putting the future generations under crippling debt.

Actually with all the tax rises in recent budgets and stealth taxes we have here our tax burden is now around average in EU when the correct % of GNP measure is used. Look at average public sector pay in EU , its much lower which allows them to use the tax resources on non staff costs to provide excellent public services. We pay top dollar and get poor public services overall.
Nurse in France gets 20k starting , Ireland get 35k. Doctor(consultant) Germany less than 100k , Ireland 250k. Even when cost of living differences are allowed for we are paying them too much to be sustainable.

Stark

Guell72 wrote:

There is the problem right there. Mention taking some of the pain and there is a knee jerk reaction. "Its the other fellas fault - dont touch me."

Increasing taxes is fine (and has been done explicitly through income and health levies in previous budgets and through stealth taxes in last budget) as long as you also look at reducing expenditure. Public expenditure has nearly doubled in the space of 5 years, even though income tax receipts are back to 2003 levels. Public sector pay makes up one third of the bill. You honestly think we can simply double the income tax rates and everything will be okay? We have to meet in the middle somewhere and the public sector can't be sheltered through tax increases and borrowing. Reform would be the best way to achieve this but since unionization and reform don't go hand in hand, we're left with the poor man's solution of unilateral paycuts.

Guell72

Stark wrote: »

Increasing taxes is fine (and has been done explicitly through income and health levies in previous budgets and through stealth taxes in last budget) as long as you also look at reducing expenditure. Public expenditure has nearly doubled in the space of 5 years, even though income tax receipts are back to 2003 levels. Public sector pay makes up one third of the bill. You honestly think we can simply double the income tax rates and everything will be okay? We have to meet in the middle somewhere and the public sector can't be sheltered through tax increases and borrowing. Reform would be the best way to achieve this but since unionization and reform don't go hand in hand, we're left with the poor man's solution of unilateral paycuts.

Nobody said double, so dont be so dramatic. We can all afford an extra 5% across all income. Even the low paid. Lets start there and get the defecit under control and then work on the public sector. Properly implemented Tax hikes effect both public and private, high and low paid. If you then want to try and sort out the public sector go ahead. But dont start by saying the other guy has to go first. The public sector already went first - remember. So yes, lets meet them in the middle. Our turn.

Or we can keep crying and hope noone realizes that we are really just trying to keep our standard of living intact and make the public sector pay more .. again.

WalterMitty

Guell72 wrote: »

Nobody said double, so dont be so dramatic. We can all afford an extra 5% across all income. Even the low paid. Lets start there and get the defecit under control and then work on the public sector. Properly implemented Tax hikes effect both public and private, high and low paid. If you then want to try and sort out the public sector go ahead. But dont start by saying the other guy has to go first. The public sector already went first - remember. So yes, lets meet them in the middle. Our turn.

Or we can keep crying and hope noone realizes that we are really just trying to keep our standard of living intact and make the public sector pay more .. again.

The public sector didnt "go first" what nonsense. The private sector is not a homogenous entity, people in their were losing jobs and getting cuts in pay/hours/overtime/commision long before cuts in public sector. The public sector is treated more like a homogenous entity because they have the one employer and negotiated pay through collective bargaining unlike private sector.
Taxing everyone to prevent public sector cuts disproportionately benefits public sector as they are still ahead of private sector in terms of pay, pensions and security according to those public servants working at the CSO. Get your facts right and stop spouting disingenuious trade union rhetoric.

Stark

Guell72 wrote: »

Or we can keep crying and hope noone realizes that we are really just trying to keep our standard of living intact and make the public sector pay more .. again.

If someone in the private sector loses their job or has to take a paycut, they have to make do. They can't go stamping their feet and demanding that the Government hikes up taxes so that they can keep their job even if their job is no longer viable. There are many areas in the public sector where pay and productivity are unsustainable. The Irish public can't be expected to subsidise that. Not as far as the current €22bn bill goes anyway. the €1bn in savings achieved in the last budget is but a drop in the ocean.

PS: I seem to remember mass unemployment and tax hikes in the December 2008 budget with no effect on the public sector so it's not like "you went first". That came when tax returns further diminished despite the hike in rates and we decided we weren't going to go down the same path as we did in the 80s.

ParkRunner

Stark wrote: »

Not as far as the current €22bn bill goes anyway. the €1bn in savings achieved in the last budget is but a drop in the ocean.

Correct me if Im wrong but as far as I know the total cost to the exchequer in 2009 for public sector pay and pensions was just over 18bn. For 2010 I think it would be a safe bet to estimate that it will be about 17bn, so that's 5bn less than what you think, which is far from a drop in the ocean!

ei.sdraob

EF wrote: »

Correct me if Im wrong but as far as I know the total cost to the exchequer in 2009 for public sector pay and pensions was just over 18bn. For 2010 I think it would be a safe bet to estimate that it will be about 17bn, so that's 5bn less than what you think, which is far from a drop in the ocean!

instead of estimating you can use the figures from here

see page 7

ParkRunner

ei.sdraob wrote: »

instead of estimating you can use the figures from here

see page 7

What more do those figures have to offer in relation to cost to the exchequer of public sector pay? I was looking at these figures which are a bit older but still relevant enough:
http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/publications/reports/2009/payanaljul09.pdf

Head The Wall

ardmacha wrote: »

They didn't. As discussed on this forum before percentage increases over the decade were the same.

Seemingly PS wages were below private sector wages hence the need for benchmarking. So according to you wages increased at the same level in both sectors.

Isn't it amazing so how Public sector wages are now on average 25% ahead of the private sector.

Guell72

Stark wrote: »

If someone in the private sector loses their job or has to take a paycut, they have to make do. They can't go stamping their feet and demanding that the Government hikes up taxes so that they can keep their job even if their job is no longer viable. There are many areas in the public sector where pay and productivity are unsustainable. The Irish public can't be expected to subsidise that. Not as far as the current €22bn bill goes anyway. the €1bn in savings achieved in the last budget is but a drop in the ocean.

PS: I seem to remember mass unemployment and tax hikes in the December 2008 budget with no effect on the public sector so it's not like "you went first". That came when tax returns further diminished despite the hike in rates and we decided we weren't going to go down the same path as we did in the 80s.

And i suppose you're not stamping your feet now. :rolleyes:
"Oh i dont have a public sector job and they do so lets complain about them".


Dont assume im public sector because i dont beat down on the public sector like all the rest of the people who begrudge others their careers. Im private sector.
We would save more than €1bn if the tax system was used on everybody properly. But we all know that as long as there are others to deflect the cuts onto. Like the "Rich" or the public sector you think we'll get away with being taxed properly. Keep dreaming.

Stark

You mean broaden the tax net? Síle Ní Socialist will never go for that.

The_Honeybadger

Guell72 wrote: »

And i suppose you're not stamping your feet now. :rolleyes:
"Oh i dont have a public sector job and they do so lets complain about them".


Dont assume im public sector because i dont beat down on the public sector like all the rest of the people who begrudge others their careers. Im private sector.
We would save more than €1bn if the tax system was used on everybody properly. But we all know that as long as there are others to deflect the cuts onto. Like the "Rich" or the public sector you think we'll get away with being taxed properly. Keep dreaming.

Not trying to start an argument here but the gap is 20+ Billion! There is only so much to be got from taxes, bottom line government must cut expenditure, it has no choice, pay happens to be an enormous part of their expenditure. Call the whole country begrudgers fine but that doesn't change the situation. The gov chose to cut pay rather than numbers because what good will putting more people on the dole queue do for anybody. It's not as simple as saying lets increase taxes to pay for everything that measure could well be counter productive, as Brian Lenihan and many other commentators have said.

ei.sdraob

mickeyk wrote: »

Not trying to start an argument here but the gap is 20+ Billion!.

25bln actually the government are "hoping" itll shrink to 20bln in 2010, as i have shown in parallel thread their estimates for expenditure have always been on the optimistic side

also dont forget the 5bln that was borrowed in 2009 just to pay of an earlier debt

mind-boggling numbers :mad:

Guell72

ei.sdraob wrote: »

25bln actually the government are "hoping" itll shrink to 20bln in 2010, as i have shown in parallel thread their estimates for expenditure have always been on the optimistic side

also dont forget the 5bln that was borrowed in 2009 just to pay of an earlier debt

mind-boggling numbers :mad:

I believe in the parallel thread your figures were shown to be pulled out of your hole. So let me get this right. Instead of trying to shrink the defecit by being fair and taxing everyone a little more, you would rather you werent touched, but others would havde to take all the pain. Now thats Irish. Im alright Jack.

ei.sdraob

Guell72 wrote: »

I believe in the parallel thread your figures were shown to be pulled out of your hole.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055823846

the post is well referenced

calling the Dept of Finance a "hole" is an interesting way to describe them


i backedup my figures, how about you do same before farting about :rolleyes:

Count Dooku

Guell72 wrote: »

I believe in the parallel thread your figures were shown to be pulled out of your hole. So let me get this right. Instead of trying to shrink the defecit by being fair and taxing everyone a little more, you would rather you werent touched, but others would havde to take all the pain. Now thats Irish. Im alright Jack.

Does it mean that NAMA was a good thing and greedy poor bankers and developers shouldn’t suffer alone?

The_Honeybadger

Guell72 wrote: »

I believe in the parallel thread your figures were shown to be pulled out of your hole. So let me get this right. Instead of trying to shrink the defecit by being fair and taxing everyone a little more, you would rather you werent touched, but others would havde to take all the pain. Now thats Irish. Im alright Jack.

The entire Gov income last year was approximately 50bn. Even if you lump 10% extra onto everything (income,corporation, Vat etc) that will give you an extra 5bn max. It is simply not enough to plug the gap, and we may have lower direct taxation than many countries here, but we do pay alot of stealth type taxes. Also take into account diminishing returns, the more you increase taxes the less people spend and the less consumer taxes you take in, so I think your argument is a little flawed IMHO. I am willing to pay more tax personally, no problem as long as its not P**sed up against the nearest wall by the government. Leaving public pay aside some of the wasteful & expensive practices that have come to light in the media of late and since this crisis began are scarcely credible, cutting expediture is the way forward IMO along with some tax increases, if the PS can't take any more pay cuts then maybe they should look at cutting numbers like the private sector does, but it is not begrudgery to want the country to be run in a financially stable manner.

ei.sdraob

mickeyk wrote: »

The entire Gov income last year was approximately 50bn.

34.8 billion actually


1,938,000 employed (in all sectors) last april

25000000000 / 1938000 = €12,900 each and every remaining employed person in this country (including the PS) would need to be taxed for 2009 ON TOP OF EXISTING TAXES in order to cover that 25 billion hole

there goes Guell72 plan for taxing everyone ....

Head The Wall

I think we'll be waiting for these figures from the other side, come on Guell72 back it up

Government figures (not out of my hole)

Page 5 - Exchequer Balance for 2009 -25,260 million. Projected for 2010 (already behind 700 million) -21,938 million

http://www.budget.gov.ie/Budgets/2010/Documents/whitepaperfin2010.pdf

The_Honeybadger

ei.sdraob wrote: »

34.8 billion actually


1,938,000 employed (in all sectors) last april

25000000000 / 1938000 = €12,900 each and every remaining employed person in this country (including the PS) would need to be taxed for 2009 ON TOP OF EXISTING TAXES in order to cover that 25 billion hole

there goes Guell72 plan for taxing everyone ....

Thanks I was referring to gross income but the net figure is the one which you quote that counts:

"Those figures are net figures, it turns out. To go back to basics, we need to look at the gross figures, i.e. count receipts such as PRSI and health levies as part of income, as opposed to netting them off against government expenditure. Doing that, total receipts for 2009 come to just over €50bn, while total expenditure will top €76bn."

Count Dooku

ei.sdraob wrote: »

there goes Guell72 plan for taxing everyone ....

in order to keep gross incomes and pensions of public sector unaffected

ei.sdraob

Count Dooku wrote: »

in order to keep gross incomes and pensions of public sector unaffected

in that case it gets worse

1,938,000 employed (in all sectors) last april - 360,900 employed in PS = ~1577100 employed outside the public sector

which means


25261000000 (exchequer balance, ie The Hole) / 1577100 = €16000 tax for each person in Private sector for 2009 on top of their existing taxes just to cover The Hole


ouch...

taxation alone wont get us out of this

Guell72

So do you guys believe that the defecit will be solved by letting the public sector take all of the burden ... Hint ... use the maths you learned in school

Stark

The deficit will hopefully be solved by keeping the deficit low enough so we won't be choked by crippling interest rate payments when the economy does recover. The aim of the game is trying to manage the deficit in a way that doesn't stifle growth and postpone recovery. In the 80s we kept upping taxes and stifling growth and lost years before we finally copped on and decided to reduce spending.