Bertie the champion of the world

Liam Byrne

LostinBlanch wrote: »

To not be able to remember the answers to nasty questions at the tribunals but be able to remember enough to "write" a biography putting your side of the story.

.....that you write while supposedly too injured to work, despite still being paid €3,000 a day.

To those who go on and on and on about the "boom" that Ahern created - here's a quick question :

If you build something that's supposed to last 200 feet high using nothing but Jenga bricks, should you be congratulated for achieving that, or laughed at when it falls ?

If Ahern had any cop-on or leadership ability or forward-thinking, he and FF could have set us up nicely for the foreseeable future; then - regardless of who or what created the boom - we could have been grateful.

But it's laughable the way FF try to take all the credit for the boom and then blame all that nasty depressing stuff on international factors.

What's that Aviva ad again ? "Bust to boom to bust".

stepbar

A more apt title for the thread..... 'Bertie, the wanker of the world'. Trust a Bertie thread to stir up a load of hospitable ****e.

anymore

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Take a look at this report . .

http://www.cso.ie/newsevents/pressrelease_measuringirelandsprogress2006.htm (you need to download the linked PDF to view the raw data) . . Unemployment rates in 1996 were at the same level as they were in 2009 . .

In fact, in May 2009 the rate was exactly the same as it was in May 1996 - 11.8%. . . From 1997 onwards the economy really began to pick up.

If GDP growth is a true measure of economic success then the 70's were a boom time in Ireland . . i was only a whippersnapper but its not how I remember it. . in fact, I think my father was unemployed for much of the decade. .

http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=ny_gdp_mktp_kd_zg&idim=country:IRL&dl=en&hl=en&q=ireland+GDP+growth

Here is another link that contradicts your data. . www.legco.gov.hk/yr04-05/english/sec/library/0405fs12e.pdf -
unemployment in Ireland grew from 1990 to 1993 and only began to recover in 93 . . mainly fuelled by the influx of FDI that came as a result of the policies of the various FF administrations in the late 80's / early 90's . .

But you know what. . this really is off-topic and matters very little to the debate. . I'm not arguing that things only picked up when Bertie Aherne was elected. I'm simply sharing my own experiences of the Ireland I left in 1996 compared to the one I returned to 5 years later.

In fact, in May 2009 the rate was exactly the same as it was in May 1996 - 11.8%. . . From 1997 onwards the economy really began to pick up.
You dont seem to realise that you have highlighted the real Ahern legacy !
Think of a wave that was coming in: Ahern's Gov's surfed that wave and brought the whole lot crashing down. He wasted the whole boom years and left us virtually bankrupt.
Curious your father was unemployed in the 70's, you had only menial job in 90's and from this you build your myth of Ahern. I started my business when i lost my job in the early 80's and worked through the early 90's which you are suggesting was a depressed period - it wasnt- I worked on fringe of construction in the 90's, businnes was great !
Maybe you leave the assessment of those years to those of us who were there and made a contribution.

FunnyStuff

I know this is off topic and sorry mod's for it... but has he gotten his tax clearance cert yet???

allisbleak

FunnyStuff wrote: »

I know this is off topic and sorry mod's for it... but has he gotten his tax clearance cert yet???

Doubt it.
Then the fckin eejits in the dail sent him off to swan around south america to pubilcize our boom and OUR way of doing things.

I agree with you anymore.

This country could have been a superb example of brillance were it not for the moronic gombeen parish politics and the fckin church.

hallelujajordan

anymore wrote: »

In fact, in May 2009 the rate was exactly the same as it was in May 1996 - 11.8%. . . From 1997 onwards the economy really began to pick up.
You dont seem to realise that you have highlighted the real Ahern legacy !
Think of a wave that was coming in: Ahern's Gov's surfed that wave and brought the whole lot crashing down. He wasted the whole boom years and left us virtually bankrupt.
Curious your father was unemployed in the 70's, you had only menial job in 90's and from this you build your myth of Ahern. I started my business when i lost my job in the early 80's and worked through the early 90's which you are suggesting was a depressed period - it wasnt- I worked on fringe of construction in the 90's, businnes was great !
Maybe you leave the assessment of those years to those of us who were there and made a contribution.

Why are you personalising this ? ?

On the one hand you agree with the numbers and the analysis for which I have posted several links and then in the very next sentence you contradict them again and finally you do what others have done and seek to belittle the opinions of those who don't agree with you. .because I didn't make a contribution ? ? ? ? In the same way that others have suggested that people like Wicklowwonder ought to be disentitled to a vote . . ? ?

I posted about my fathers 70's experience simply to point out the folly in your argument that rising GDP = positive economic environment yet you ignore that argument and have a rather cheap shot about how my views on Aherne have been coloured by my fathers unemployment and by my "menial job" ? ?

I have no myth of Aherne . . I have an experience of 80's and early 90's Ireland that was not an economically pleasant place to be . . One that had changed drastically by the early 90's . . changes for which I give credit to the Aherne government. I recognise that mistakes were made and that the Aherne government did not have a close enough eye on the future . . I've always recognised that but I believe that we collectively share in the responsibility for that . . . and btw, I believe those in the construction industry (do you include yourself in this ?) share an even greater burden of responsibility. . .

anymore

FunnyStuff wrote: »

I know this is off topic and sorry mod's for it... but has he gotten his tax clearance cert yet???

Probably waiting for the Mahon Report !
The Uk has managed to investiagte and have the Crown prosecution Service initiate proceedings against 4 MPs in the space of 6 months !

Laminations

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I have no myth of Aherne . . I have an experience of 80's and early 90's Ireland that was not an economically pleasant place to be . . One that had changed drastically by the early 90's . . changes for which I give credit to the Aherne government.

Firstly changes are all well and good but it was a bubble, the changes were not sustainable and we are where we are. This isn't a house party its the economy, the whole point is to manage it FOR THE FUTURE. And where is the collective credit for the boom that you so quickly dole out for the bust? We were a low cost, highly educated economy, what exactly did Bertie do to create all the wealth he managed to squander? The truth is he didnt create the wealth, he just managed it, and he managed it very very badly

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I recognise that mistakes were made and that the Aherne government did not have a close enough eye on the future . . I've always recognised that but I believe that we collectively share in the responsibility for that . . . and btw, I believe those in the construction industry (do you include yourself in this ?) share an even greater burden of responsibility. . .

How gracious of you to recognise mistakes were made, but frankly its your complete downplaying of said mistakes that makes this concession hollow. Do the construction industry operate outside the jurisdiction of the state? Was there no regulation? Was it not the government who was in fact in charge of all of this? Policy, policy, policy - the government could have slowed the building of the 300,000 'surplus to requirements' houses or at least informed the population of this surplus instead of artificially creeating a supply and demand lie (where there was demand for a supposed undersupply of housing) and hence property prices became inflated and the bubble got bigger.

And people are getting personal because YOU want to give these eejits another shot at running this country!

Biggins

FunnyStuff wrote: »

I know this is off topic and sorry mod's for it... but has he gotten his tax clearance cert yet???

No, since 2002 a certificate stating that Ahern is "in negotiation" still with the Revenue Commissioners has been submitted to the Dail, to allow him to continue acting as a TD.
If it was you or I and the tax office wanted us to sort our tax out, do you think they would hang around a few years? :rolleyes:

The Standards in Public Office Commission has been asked to investigate the Taoiseach's declaration of tax compliance after the 2002 General Election.

Ahern's inability to furnish the tax clearance certificate has led to further calls for Ahern's resignation. He is also the only member of the Oireachtas not to have a tax clearance certificate On 14 January 2008 while on a visit to South Africa, Ahern accused Enda Kenny, leader of the opposition of telling a "bare-faced lie" about Ahern's tax situation. Ahern and Fianna Fáil's response has not addressed the issue, but has attacked the leaking of Ahern's tax affairs so as to attempt to enable the non-compliance issue to be ignored. Labour party leader "Mr Gilmore joined the offensive over the weekend, saying the Taoiseach was now providing at least four different versions of his personal finances and was unable to get a tax clearance certificate."

Ahern admitted to the Mahon Tribunal on 21 February 2008, for the first time, that he did not pay tax on substantial payments that he received when Minister for Finance in the 1990s.

Source

Other source points:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/mahon-tribunal/taoiseach-admits-not-paying-tax-on-irpound10000-1295352.html
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/ahern-refuses-to-answer-any-questions-over-tax-controversy-1265541.html
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/taoiseach-accuses-kenny-of-telling-a-barefaced-lie-1266388.html
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0119/ahernb.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3149098.ece

...it has since emerged that Mr Ahern has put €70,000 on account with the Revenue to cover any possible liability, the final bill is actually irrelevant.
You can't be half pregnant. Mr Ahern either owes tax or he doesn't. Full stop. End of story.

Mr Ahern seems to think there is no difference between not having a tax bill and having just a small tax bill.
The reason Mr Ahern's tax status is so important is perfectly simple.
He was Minister for Finance when he received the dig-out payments. He was responsible for the collection and distribution of taxes at the time. He was responsible for tax and budgetary policy at the time. He was responsible for the Revenue Commissioners at the time.
Forget about the origin of the funding for a moment.
If Mr Ahern actually had a tax bill from the time when he was Minister for Finance, all the rest of this affair pales into insignificance.
Nobody can categorically say Mr Ahern actually does have a tax bill, but the reality is the Taoiseach can't say he doesn't.
And that's why this is so serious and Mr Ahern deserves to be questioned about it and give straight answers.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/fionnan-sheahan/straight-answers-needed-to-taxing-bertie-questions-1277938.html

johngalway

>Bertie<

oh well , okay

Just a quick note on these dig outs . I've seen them mentioned here on several Bertie threads and would just like to point out that these are alleged dig outs .

Let's take a quick look at one of them .

Ahern is asked to explain a lodgement of £24,838.49 made to his deposit account on October 11th 1994 .....

Ahern claims to the tribunal this was made up of a £16,500 (Irish) cash dig out given to him by 4 friends in a brown envelope in Fagans pub . The friends testimonies back up this claim but none of the friends or their banks can produce any documentation to back up these claims ie no records of any similar cash withdrawals exist from any of their bank accounts . Ahern claims a further £8,000 (sterling) is received as a spontaneous payment at a dinner function in Manchester by a mostly unnamed group of 20-25 individuals .

Now coincidently enough on October 11th 1994 one of the exchange rates used that day would equate this £24,838.49 lodgement to exactly £25,000 sterling and coincidently enough the branch involved would normally only buy £2-2.5k sterling on a normal day but on this day is shown to take in 12 times this figure . Celia Larkin lodges £800 in to one of her accounts on this day so the lodgements are most likely made by her .

Did the money come from an Irish dig out and a Sterling whip round as Ahern swears ? or was £25,000 sterling deposited and Ahern can't explain where it came from without damaging himself even worse than the dig out stories do ?

This is just one lodgement that the tribunal queried , Colm Keena wrote a piece in the times that claimed the Ahern lodgements under investigation totalled almost £453,000 . That's a lot of money by todays standards let alone in the early 90's .

Anyway , just wanted to point out that the dig out stories bad as they are are Aherns side of events and should not be taken as gospel.

Shea O'Meara

oh well , okay wrote: »

Anyway , just wanted to point out that the dig out stories bad as they are are Aherns side of events and should not be taken as gospel.

It's understood Bertie is a sneak thief, it's just more convenient to refer to that whole period as 'the dig outs'.

hallelujajordan

Laminations wrote: »

And people are getting personal because YOU want to give these eejits another shot at running this country!

I understood it was against the forum charter to get personal regardless of the views expressed. . .

Besides which, this comment would only make sense if those who were getting personal wanted to put some alternative government with real alternative policies in place. . but we know they don't

Shea O'Meara

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I understood it was against the forum charter to get personal regardless of the views expressed. . .

Besides which, this comment would only make sense if those who were getting personal wanted to put some alternative government with real alternative policies in place. . but we know they don't

A donkey with a stick of chalk between it's hoofs, scratching randomly in marked out squares on the footpath, which represent a random selection of policies being put up for debate.
How's that? Worth a shot in my view.

ascanbe

Red_Marauder wrote: »

I disliked the leadership style of Ahern, I don't trust his account of financial irregularities as discussed in another thread, and I personally distrust him as a public figure. I just don't like his politics nor his methods and am uneasy about the allegations that still pervade.

But I am not so stupid, nor are lots of other posters, to suggest that his government didn't do a whole deal of good.

I was ten years old and in Primary school when Ahern came to power. When he quit I was 22 and in my final year of University. I enjoyed all of the benefits of the years of success that Fianna Fáil did have a serious part in.

The point is that all of this never, ever negates dishonesty or corruption in political life if indeed such allegations are proven. They are totally seperate issues.

In public life, small failures or perceived failures may overshadow an entire career - often with good reason.

What age are you now?
Now that he's lead the country to brink of collapse.
'Small failures or percieved failures'. Yeah.
Anyone who categorises the years you speak of as being a 'success', is mistaken, to put it mildly.

Red_Marauder

ascanbe wrote: »

What age are you now?
Now that he's lead the country to brink of collapse.

Two years older with coming up to a year in a career that I personally don't think I would be in were it not for the celtic tiger economy; and in a far better financial position than I would have been without the Celtic Tiger.

'Small failures or percieved failures'. Yeah.

In the scheme of things, I think the few thousand Ahern is alleged to have got in corruption is a smaller issue than the huge economic growth this country experienced during Fianna Fáil's tenure. But I think it is right that any corruption blackens his name.

I am a FG voter and member btw, I just happen to think that to deny that Fianna Fail brought about, or helped bring about, an improvement in most of our personal lives and living standards, is to dig ones head in the sand.

Anyone who categorises the years you speak of as being a 'success', is mistaken, to put it mildly.

Let me guess, the Celtic Tiger didn't come knocking on your door?

Liam Byrne

Red_Marauder wrote: »

In the scheme of things, I think the few thousand Ahern is alleged to have got in corruption is a smaller issue than the huge economic growth this country experienced during Fianna Fáil's tenure. But I think it is right that any corruption blackens his name.

"a few thousand" equates to two, or three, or maybe four.

NOT 453,000 !!! :eek:

Red_Marauder wrote: »

I am a FG voter and member btw, I just happen to think that to deny that Fianna Fail brought about, or helped bring about, an improvement in most of our personal lives and living standards, is to dig ones head in the sand.

If a parent takes you on an amazing, cool holiday for a few years and then can't afford to feed you for the next 20, you've no need to be grateful. In actual fact, you'd have been better off never experiencing the highs, because then you'd never miss them.

They threw all the hard work away, and Ireland - having taken 10 years of tribunals to not yet find corruption, and only now throwing shapes to appear to investigate the banking crisis, and having committees to investigate expenses abuse and corruption, thereby putting stuff like accountability and blame on the long finger until they hope we've forgotten about it, while other countries are already on the way out and have fingered and puninsed bankers, policitians, etc who were to blame.....

Ireland is seen as a corrupt cesspit at this stage, and no-one in their right mind would invest in it, IMHO.

We need to be seen to clear out the stink and start fresh.

[QUOTE=hallelujahjordan;64433351Besides which, this comment would only make sense if those who were getting personal wanted to put some alternative government with real alternative policies in place. . but we know they don't[/QUOTE]

What part of this don't you get : FF policies are ****e, and FG's or Labour's might well be just as bad.......but politics in Ireland is so damaged at this stage that a mere lack of corruption would be an improvement.

It's sickening, but it's true.

It probably doesn't suit you to recognise this, since it's an area where FG and Labour are without a doubt more qualified to be elected, having had FF pick up one of their ejected corrupt rejects.

Red_Marauder

Liam Byrne wrote: »

"a few thousand" equates to two, or three, or maybe four.
NOT 453,000 !!! :eek:

In fairness we don't know the exact figures, personally I would be surprised if he earned as much as that, but even that is about, what, two years Taoiseach's salary in old money? (Aherns time)

If a parent takes you on an amazing, cool holiday for a few years and then can't afford to feed you for the next 20, you've no need to be grateful.

I don't think that's a relatively accurate analogy in fairness. The celtic tiger has been around for a conservative 10 years durinmg which enormous improvements were made in living standards - not all thanks to Fianna Fáil by any means, but certainly spurred on by Fianna Fáil.

By the way, about your analogy - I'm not saying that the current downturn os okay 'because of' the upturn. What I'm saying is that my parents - and now myself - are better off than in 1996, or 1986, and in fact all of my parents lives as far as I can see.
Everybody benefitted from the celtic tiger as far as I can see, and we all continue to enjoy benefits. Maybe not to the same degree - but the benefits are still around.

In actual fact, you'd have been better off never experiencing the highs,because then you'd never miss them.

That is to suggest all living standards are back pre 1996 standards? I strongly disagree.

Ireland is seen as a corrupt cesspit at this stage, and no-one in their right mind would invest in it, IMHO.

Thankfully, we are hearing of more and more investors who disagree with you.

hallelujajordan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

What part of this don't you get : FF policies are ****e, and FG's or Labour's might well be just as bad.......but politics in Ireland is so damaged at this stage that a mere lack of corruption would be an improvement.

I might be able to agree with you except your analysis is predicated on the assumption that FG / Labour would be just as bad or to put it another way, Just as Good. .

I happen to believe that they would not be just as good. I believe they would be crippled by their ideological differences, by the ego's of their two leaders (who have been unable to act in partnership while in opposition) and by the complete lack of leadership ability in the man who would become Taoiseach in said partnership . . a lack of leadership that was highlighted again this week with the George Lee fiasco and the ridiculous "I'm going to be myself" commentary. . .

jmayo

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I understood it was against the forum charter to get personal regardless of the views expressed. . .

Besides which, this comment would only make sense if those who were getting personal wanted to put some alternative government with real alternative policies in place. . but we know they don't

People ask hard questions about ahern and thus his party to which hey presto lets try and call into question the alternatives.

Another classsic ff little trick.
It is getting tiresome at this stage.
Are you guys getting training tips or something ?
I have noticed a lot more ff activity on forums of late.
I suppose the George Lee affair was good and drew a lot of the sleveens out.

Also something I notice is that ff would rather destroy the image of all politicans as a whole rather than take any blame for themselves.
Why else would they eventually stoop to the line "sure they would be as bad if they were in power for so long". ?

Sad thing is that they have succeeded and the image of all politicans is now so bad that a celebrity economics pundit, who is now believed by many to be our economic and financial saviour, is being lauded for quiting politics and the polticians are being blamed for his inability to hack it.

Red_Marauder wrote: »

...

In the scheme of things, I think the few thousand Ahern is alleged to have got in corruption is a smaller issue than the huge economic growth this country experienced during Fianna Fáil's tenure. But I think it is right that any corruption blackens his name.

I am a FG voter and member btw, I just happen to think that to deny that Fianna Fail brought about, or helped bring about, an improvement in most of our personal lives and living standards, is to dig ones head in the sand.

Let me guess, the Celtic Tiger didn't come knocking on your door?

PS was your account hacked because I find you excusing bertie ?

It wasn't just a few thousand, the sums involved (icluding house fix up amounts) were far greater than average industrial wages of the time.
And it is nopt a small issue, he was finance minister at the time and within a few years would be the leader of our country.

The celtic tiger didn't stop at some doors and in fact the way the bubble economy developed it robbed some people of a decent future.

They brought about an improvement in people's lives that they will be paying for throughout their lives.
To me that is not progress. :rolleyes:

Red_Marauder

jmayo wrote: »

PS was your account hacked because I find you excusing bertie ?

I'm not excusing him; like I said if he is guilty of corruption, and in my opinion that seems highly likely, then he deserves the blackening of his name.

The celtic tiger didn't stop at some doors and in fact the way the bubble economy developed it robbed some people of a decent future.

This is what I take issue with. I don't deny the seriousness of the property crash and Ireland's structural defecit. But neither do I deny the immense good that 10 years of economic boom brought about and much of which still pervades.

Sometimes I think we in Fine Gael are accused of blind criticism of, and reactionary indignation at every finger the government lifts to do the most basic task.
Sometimes also we are not honest enough about what was without doubt a very successful time for our economy, the fruits of which are still around. Our living standards have been improved by the Celtic Tiger. Personally I am glad it happened, and I agree with many of the Fianna Fáil decisions over the years.

That said, they did mishandle certain things and they are to blame for a great deal of our structural defecit on account of incompetance. But the fact remains, they also introduced some rather clever measures that spurred on economic growth that visited every door and every household in this country.

I don't buy this thing of "The Celtic tiger never visited me". Everybody benefitted. We all had a hand in the pie. We all have to take some personal responsibility.

anymore

Red_Marauder wrote: »

In fairness we don't know the exact figures, personally I would be surprised if he earned as much as that, but even that is about, what, two years Taoiseach's salary in old money? (Aherns time)

I don't think that's a relatively accurate analogy in fairness. The celtic tiger has been around for a conservative 10 years durinmg which enormous improvements were made in living standards - not all thanks to Fianna Fáil by any means, but certainly spurred on by Fianna Fáil.

By the way, about your analogy - I'm not saying that the current downturn os okay 'because of' the upturn. What I'm saying is that my parents - and now myself - are better off than in 1996, or 1986, and in fact all of my parents lives as far as I can see.
Everybody benefitted from the celtic tiger as far as I can see, and we all continue to enjoy benefits. Maybe not to the same degree - but the benefits are still around.
That is to suggest all living standards are back pre 1996 standards? I strongly disagree.
Thankfully, we are hearing of more and more investors who disagree with you.

I agree with that mopst people are better off than they were in the 80's but the reasons they are dont really have that much to do with Ahern. FF's Ray MacSharry has had some intersting articles on the genesis of the Celtic Tiger and these relate to the period before Ahern's period as taoiseach. What Ahern had to do was manage the Celtic Tiger and instead of this he maninupulated the economy for the benefit of vested interest groups and the result is what we see today. The irony is that most of the vested groups he tried to woo for electoral advantage, now see him as a pariah ! Sweet justice.
The reality his own party dumped him becuase of the all too clear evidence of wrong doing !

Red_Marauder

anymore wrote: »

FF's Ray MacSharry has had some intersting articles on the genesis of the Celtic Tiger and these relate to the period before Ahern's period as taoiseach.

Yes and just to be clear I'm not crediting FF exclusively, or Ahern himself, with the genesis of economic growth.

What Ahern had to do was manage the Celtic Tiger and instead of this he maninupulated the economy for the benefit of vested interest groups and the result is what we see today.

Yes he did manage the economy, and while I have no doubt at all about his failures, his administration did do a lot of things right as well as doing some serious wrongs. But every administration has to "manipulate" an economy, be it to procide favourable conditions for employers, or investors, or workers, or any of the many 'vested interest groups'.

To only see what he did right, or to only credit him with doing wrong, is total denial of what actually happened and how this country has changed over the past fifteen years.

anymore

Red_Marauder wrote: »

I'm not excusing him; like I said if he is guilty of corruption, and in my opinion that seems highly likely, then he deserves the blackening of his name.
.
I don't buy this thing of "The Celtic tiger never visited me". Everybody benefitted. We all had a hand in the pie. We all have to take some personal responsibility.

Delegatus no potest delegare !

If you are a member of a political party, then take as much responsibility as you want, but dont ask ordinary non - political people to share the burden of responsibility. We dont lead, we dont formulate and implement policies, we dont even have the resources or adequate information to make informed evaluations on economic political - we are not responsible.
I have had a good deal of experience corresponding with manly FG politicians in the last year and the experience has been almost unifromly depressing; the majority are obuvousily interested only in their careers or in issues that have marketabillity.

oh well , okay

In fairness we don't know the exact figures, personally I would be surprised if he earned as much as that, but even that is about, what, two years Taoiseach's salary in old money? (Aherns time)

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/0329/1206144877731.html
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2008/04/06/story31846.asp

The total of lodgements made in to various Ahern/Larkin accounts is £452,800 in the period covered by the tribunal. This includes the fabled B/T account and several supposed FF accounts that FF were unaware they had . The total excludes lodgements where the tribunal has been shown the money was transferred from one bank account to another, but includes such lodgements where neither Mr Ahern nor the tribunal have been able to find independent confirmation as to what occurred.

The taoiseach salary at that time was £55,758 . That's 8 years salary in old money , in unexplained lodgements , and that's not even the true cost of political corruption . I doubt we can put a price on that .

The avarage industrial wage in 1994 was best as I can find £14,500 , that's 31 years salary in old money for the average Joe .

anymore

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Yes and just to be clear I'm not crediting FF exclusively, or Ahern himself, with the genesis of economic growth.


Yes he did manage the economy, and while I have no doubt at all about his failures, his administration did do a lot of things right as well as doing some serious wrongs. But every administration has to "manipulate" an economy, be it to procide favourable conditions for employers, or investors, or workers, or any of the many 'vested interest groups'.

To only see what he did right, or to only credit him with doing wrong, is total denial of what actually happened and how this country has changed over the past fifteen years.

It should be taken as a given that every politician in office will do some good - indeed the law of averages alone suggest that a politician supported by an extensive civil serive and with the benefit of advice from a variety of expert agencies, will do more good than bad.
However Ahern on a wide range of issues did immensely more harm than good and has wasted what should have been the surpluses of the good years and this was happening even before the international crisis.

Red_Marauder

anymore wrote: »

[/I]
If you are a member of a political party, then take as much responsibility as you want, but dont ask ordinary non - political people to share the burden of responsibility.

What does being a member of a political party have to do with it?

It wasn't membership of politcal parties that caused the economic problems we are facing. It was carelessness and greed. Carelessness and greed at Government level, yes - that is well documented. There was also carelessness and greed at commerical level.

But we have to recognize the carelessness and greed at personal level as well.

We did all benefit. Betty from Doneraile, doing the Daily Mail crossword in the new conservatory of her designer home; or Siobhán in Claremorris driving to her Tesco job in a 4x4, might disagree that they ever saw a celtic tiger, but they did, we all did.
Everybody's quality of life improved, from foreign travel to luxury items to more basic things like community resources and social welfare and the availability of credit if it were taken responsibly.

we dont even have the resources or adequate information to make informed evaluations on economic political - we are not responsible.

I take huge issue with this.

To play dumb, or to say "we don't know any better, don't blame us" is taking the relinquishing of responsibility to a new extreme.
It isn't rocket science to understand that you just don't take a 120% mortgage, even if it is offered by some stranger in a pin stripe suit. You don't get yourself into debt you can't sustain, you don't spend money on things you cannot afford - why do we assume that people shouldn't know that?
Yes bankers and Governments have to be held accountable. But so do ordinary people, we can't wash our hands of all of this. We are a huge part of the economy, collectively we are part of the problem.

Red_Marauder

oh well , okay wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/0329/1206144877731.html
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2008/04/06/story31846.asp

The total of lodgements made in to various Ahern/Larkin accounts is £452,800 in the period covered by the tribunal.

There are a number of accounts in question, not all Aherns, and that is the net value of the amounts concerned 'all-in'.
You cannot simply extrapolate that such is the degree of his guilt, or that every last cent of this lodged was black money, at least until Mahon reports. That is the first point.
Secondly, if you read what Ive been posting I think it's highly likely that Ahern is corrupt, and that his name should be blackened.

All I'm saying is that personally, I look at the Celtic Tiger period with a certain degree of admiration for Fianna Fáil - that is not an easy thing for a FGer to admit. I would have loved to have been part of a party that oversaw that era - mot only because I think FG could have done it better, but because of what an exciting and confident time it was for the Irish nation.
I don't overlook Fianna Fáil transgressions, but to be quite honest with you, I see them as small apples in the scheme of things. I appreciate that everyone doesn't agree with that, that's perfectly understandable.

anymore

Red_Marauder wrote: »

What does being a member of a political party have to do with it?

It wasn't membership of politcal parties that caused the economic problems we are facing. It was carelessness and greed. Carelessness and greed at Government level, yes - that is well documented. There was also carelessness and greed at commerical level.

But we have to recognize the carelessness and greed at personal level as well.

We did all benefit. Betty from Doneraile, doing the Daily Mail crossword in the new conservatory of her designer home; or Siobhán in Claremorris driving to her Tesco job in a 4x4, might disagree that they ever saw a celtic tiger, but they did, we all did.
Everybody's quality of life improved, from foreign travel to luxury items to more basic things like community resources and social welfare and the availability of credit if it were taken responsibly.

I take huge issue with this.

To play dumb, or to say "we don't know any better, don't blame us" is taking the relinquishing of responsibility to a new extreme.
It isn't rocket science to understand that you just don't take a 120% mortgage, even if it is offered by some stranger in a pin stripe suit. You don't get yourself into debt you can't sustain, you don't spend money on things you cannot afford - why do we assume that people shouldn't know that?
Yes bankers and Governments have to be held accountable. But so do ordinary people, we can't wash our hands of all of this. We are a huge part of the economy, collectively we are part of the problem.

I am afraid your repeated references to 4 x 4 's reveal a remarkable attitude to people. 4 x4 's can be bought accross the price range from new to 12 year old. In thenselves they say very little about people other than a preference for a particular kind of vehicle. The propensity of people in politicial parties to parrot some jaded remark they heard from a fellow politician or read from some slightly satirical newspaper article amazes me. Is independent thinking allowed in politicial parties ?
People ar entitled to rely on the expertise of people in financial institutions that are licenced by the Stae and overseen by Government agencies. If the figures they produce in support of a loan application are evaluated by these institutions, where is the greed, where is the stupidity ? And wgere were the Warning Bells being sounded by politicians ?

paddyland

Red_Marauder wrote: »

All I'm saying is that personally, I look at the Celtic Tiger period with a certain degree of admiration for Fianna Fáil - that is not an easy thing for a FGer to admit. I would have loved to have been part of a party that oversaw that era - mot only because I think FG could have done it better, but because of what an exciting and confident time it was for the Irish nation.
I don't overlook Fianna Fáil transgressions, but to be quite honest with you, I see them as small apples in the scheme of things. I appreciate that everyone doesn't agree with that, that's perfectly understandable.

You are off the boil here. You suggest everyone benefitted from the Celtic Tiger, and that alone is a reason to admire FF. 4x4s and new conservatories indeed. Stop here a moment.

All through the Celtic Tiger, I worked a regular 80 hours a week, and up to 100 hours a week, for low wages, chasing my tail for my own home. I rented a damp, stinking, leaking, rat trap of a bedsit, but I stuck it out in order to save a deposit for my own place, so that I wouldn't be behelden to unscrupulous (FF) landlords ever again. But the more I worked and saved to get out of that hellhole, the more prices ran away from me.

One year, I gave up saving in despair, and scrapped my 1987 Fiat Uno for a brand new 1 litre Opel Corsa. So yes I benefitted from the Celtic Tiger. I swanned around in a brand new 1 litre hatchback, while working my ass off for 80 hours a week, no social life, and a rat infested hovel to live in, where I was too embarrassed to let anyone cross the door.

An opportunity arose to get a mortgage, but it was dependent upon fiddling my earnings to make it look like I was earning twice what I was. The classic mistake everyone made, which the banks made hay on. I'll tell you now, if you lived in what I lived in, by Jesus you'd take any opportunity handed to you, no matter how ill judged.

So now I was trapped in the cycle of work, work, work, unending. I never saw a lie in for four years. I never saw a day off, or a social night out. If I had a Sunday off once in a blue moon, I spent it in bed, exhausted. I ended up with depression, which I am still dealing with. Everything I did was wrong and misjudged, but I was working so hard just to keep up, I couldn't even think straight. I can tell you I was a long way from 4x4s and conservatories.

All the while, Messr. B. Ahern was telling us all we never had it so good. This Celtic Tiger was built on an awful lot of people getting VERY rich VERY quickly, off the backs of other people who weren't getting rich at all, who were barely surviving. I despised this Celtic Tiger. I was getting nothing out of it. All it was doing was denying me a chance to buy a small affordable home, to get out of the clutches of a series of selfish landlords, those same homes being snapped up at record prices by greedy speculators.

So no, I DON'T admire Fianna Fáil. I sure as hell DON'T admire Bertie Ahern. He and that party can rot in hell, if only there was a hell, and I wouldn't be shy of saying it plainly to the face of any FF supporter who came my way. They raped this country for the betterment of one section of society, the FF section, and they still see no better than securing the rights of the country for their own brethren, and to hell with everyone on the outside. In the process Bertie Ahern managed to sour an entire generation of politics by poisoning it with people who shared the worst element of this selfish attitude.

Government of the people, for some of the people, as someone else here mentioned.

oh well , okay

There are a number of accounts in question, not all Aherns, and that is the net value of the amounts concerned 'all-in'.

All accounts are ones that Ahern had direct access to , he had access to more but these are the accounts that had unexplained lodgements and this is the total of the unexplained lodgements . It is not the total value of his accounts.

You cannot simply extrapolate that such is the degree of his guilt, or that every last cent of this lodged was black money, at least until Mahon reports. That is the first point.

Where have I done this ?

Secondly, if you read what Ive been posting

In fairness we don't know the exact figures, personally I would be surprised if he earned as much as that, but even that is about, what, two years Taoiseach's salary in old money? (Aherns time)

That's what I was replying to , you asked a question about my figures on the money and I answered it .

Laminations

Red i think you are miles off the mark here. I agree with you that you need a measured analysis of the good and the bad done, but Aherns legacy is overwhelmingly bad. At this point (without using Godwins law) it is folly to even mention the good points. Yep we are better off compared to the 80s. We are also better off compared to Zimbabwe, neither are useful metrics. Its about the potential FF had, and the potential they wasted. They did not create a stable and sustainable economy. We could all sit back with nostalgia and point to the plastic bag levy or the smoking ban or the social welfare increases- who cares, the damage done outweighs the good. Total wasted potential. The people created the celtic tiger, the government managed the money we made for them and did a terrible job.

Laminations

And as for personal responsibility? The banks will make sure that the ordinary joe who overextended themselves, often on the advice of these banks, will be paying back for the rest of their lives. Meanwhile the government will draw multiple TD and ministerial pensions for the excellent job they've made of this country.

Red_Marauder

anymore wrote: »

I am afraid your repeated references to 4 x 4 's reveal a remarkable attitude to people.

What repeated reference? could have been the only time I mentioned a 4x4 on my enitre time posting on boards.ie, for all I remember.

The point is about luxury items, and how we many many people agreed to pay inflated prices for objects that we often didn't need and perhaps couldn't even afford.

Is independent thinking allowed in politicial parties ?

Yes, and sometimes rather unfortunately I would add.

People ar entitled to rely on the expertise of people in financial institutions that are licenced by the Stae and overseen by Government agencies.

Not to the abandonment of their own common sense they're not.

I take huge issue with your 'we are not responsible' comment, using some imagined lack of resources as an excuse for the personal economic failure many people are currently dogged with.
There is Government responsibility for that, and commerical and banking frivolity does have a part to play - but so does the individual in question, i.e. the person who drew down the loan and spent the money they couldn't afford to spend.
We need to be adults here, spot our own mistakes, own up to them, and make sure it doesn't happen again.

paddyland wrote:

You are off the boil here. You suggest everyone benefitted from the Celtic Tiger, and that alone is a reason to admire FF.

No, that isn't my point. Read the post.

I'm saying that I personally admire some of Fianna Fáils positive influences on our standard of living and I personally wish that Fine Gael had had the same opportunities to positively affect economic growth in such an actve manner. I didn't say anything as simplistic as the boom is a reason to admire Fianna Fail.

In general, I don't admire that party nor many of their ideologies, if they can be given so generous a term.

An opportunity arose to get a mortgage, but it was dependent upon fiddling my earnings to make it look like I was earning twice what I was. The classic mistake everyone made, which the banks made hay on.

Why wouldn't they?
If I were a bank manager and someone came to me telling me they were earning a generous salary I'd be thinking 'what's the biggest amount our underwriters will grant him based on that income'? They shouldn't have to go to any extreme lengths chasing you up on your figures - it's everyone's personal resposibility not to lie about their earnings or outgoings when applying for credit. And many people did it nevertheless. That's their fault.

I'm not getting into your personal financial circumstances only to say that if you worked up to 100 hours per week and lived in a hovel and never had a night out or social event or a lie-in for four years, that was your own choice. A mortgage is a personal choice. Working 100 hours per week is one's own choice. It is possible to live comfortably in a nice apartment anywhere in this country on less than that. Many people did, and remain to do so.

hallelujajordan

Laminations wrote: »

And as for personal responsibility? The banks will make sure that the ordinary joe who overextended themselves, often on the advice of these banks, will be paying back for the rest of their lives. .

Of course they will . . they are a business, with a responsibility to their shareholders to turn an ever increasing profit . . . If I have a credit card with a 5K limit and it looks like I am getting close to my limit but meeting my repayments what do the cc company do . . they increase my limit to 10k . . And if I keep spending, they will keep increasing my limit.

There is a point at which I have to take responsibility for my own actions, and if I am living in a house paid for with a mortgage i can't afford then I need to recognise that I am in that house as a consequence of my own actions , not because the government didn't step in to stop me buying the house in the first place.

anymore wrote:

If you are a member of a political party, then take as much responsibility as you want, but dont ask ordinary non - political people to share the burden of responsibility. We dont lead, we dont formulate and implement policies, we dont even have the resources or adequate information to make informed evaluations on economic political - we are not responsible.

But we do vote. . based on a manifesto that is presented to us and on the basis of our vote we give a group of people a mandate to form policies . . . then we get to vote again, usually 5 years later on their performance in forming and implementing those policies. .

With our vote and our actions comes a level of personal and collective responsibility . .

In my view, the only way we will avoid ending up back where we are today is if we begin to understand the principle of collective responsibility and avoid the easy option of blaming our politicians for everything that goes wrong.

Laminations

Kids in a classroom
The teacher brings in a bottle of coke that they earned for good work.
Instead of measuring it out, pouring it into glasses, making sure everyone is looked after or saving it up, she sprays it like a champagne celebration over the childrens heads.

Now the kids could lick their lips and say well that was fun, I've more cola in my mouth now then I had before, well done teacher

OR they could say
Yum, that other class got no cola so we should feel grateful, at least we had a taste.

OR how about

What the f*** was that, what a f***ing waste of coca-cola, if we work our butts off for coke again we are not letting this absolute idiot waste it like that.

I find the last option is how we all should be feeling.
Where is our f***ing cola!!

Red_Marauder

Laminations wrote: »

At this point (without using Godwins law) it is folly to even mention the good points.

People may want to ignore the good points, that's fair enough. Personally I think that when summing up any political leader's contribution, you can't blind yourself to a particular aspect of that career or pretend it didn't happen and focus on the bad stuff.

I don't think much of Fianna Fáil in general, nor Ahern for that matter. But to simply ignore particular economic or social policy is what is folly.

Laminations

Red_Marauder wrote: »

The point is about luxury items, and how we many many people agreed to pay inflated prices for objects that we often didn't need and perhaps couldn't even afford.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

There is a point at which I have to take responsibility for my own actions, and if I am living in a house paid for with a mortgage i can't afford then I need to recognise that I am in that house as a consequence of my own actions , not because the government didn't step in to stop me buying the house in the first place.

Thats my point, no need to mention personal responsibility because people (if they did get greedy) are paying for it now, the banks will make sure of it (And I mean the regular people, not the rich, supposedly bankrupt developers whose wives and children have million dollar penthouses abroad). Its the people who have to make sure the government pay for their hand in this mess.

The personal responsibility end of things will be dealt with through people being indebted and in negative equity for the rest of their lives - thats the cross they bare. What is the cross this government bare? A 15% pay cut on already ludicrous salaries? Is the big BC worth over €200,000? How is he feeling the pain?

Red_Marauder

Laminations wrote: »

Kids in a classroom
The teacher brings in a bottle of coke that they earned for good work.
Instead of measuring it out, pouring it into glasses, making sure everyone is looked after or saving it up, she sprays it like a champagne celebration over the childrens heads.

Now the kids could lick their lips and say well that was fun, I've more cola in my mouth now then I had before, well done teacher

I don't think much of your analogy. I think a more useful comparison might be a teacher who brings a load of McDonalds in for her class and they all vomit gluttony upon one another.

Even at that, I don't think it's reasonable to compare fully grown adults with (one would hope) a useful level of intelligence to schoolchildren who need the guidance of a teacher.
As a nation, we shouldn't need babysitting.

Laminations

Red_Marauder wrote: »

I don't think much of Fianna Fáil in general, nor Ahern for that matter. But to simply ignore particular economic or social policy is what is folly.

Please provide references to such policies - the sustainable ones please, not the ones implemented to buy elections

Laminations

Red_Marauder wrote: »

As a nation, we shouldn't need babysitting.

We dont, we need good governance

Laminations

Red_Marauder wrote: »

I don't think it's reasonable to compare fully grown adults with (one would hope) a useful level of intelligence to schoolchildren who need the guidance of a teacher.

You are right, as adults we should know better. It is mad to be saying we are better off than in the 80s or 90s, that is no metric of government performance as it completely overlooks the potential we had and where we could have been. It ignores the wastage, the very benchmark of FF in government.

Red_Marauder

Laminations wrote: »

Please provide references to such policies - the sustainable ones please, not the ones implemented to buy elections

It is mad to be saying we are better off than in the 80s or 90s

Where is our f***ing cola!!

Why do I get the feeling that you wouldn't be happy with anything short of total economic ruin simply to maximise naysaying potential.

Not everything is negative guys, not everything about the Celtic Tiger is a tragedy, people need to cop on a bit and stop wallowing in misery. We are in a far better financial postition than we were even last year.

Not all of that is down to Fianna Fáil, most of it is down to businesses and employees who are still operating and doing their best in the current market, just like they did in their contribution to the celtic tiger.

But none of our economic growth, and none of our current successes as a recovering economy are down to the hopeless whingery of some elements of this society, who frown in a blue funk, always looking backwards into other people's mistakes.

Get over it.

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I might be able to agree with you except your analysis is predicated on the assumption that FG / Labour would be just as bad or to put it another way, Just as Good. .

I happen to believe that they would not be just as good.

And you're unable to see the fact that I even allow myself to think that they could possibly be as bad as a meeting you halfway?

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I believe they would be crippled by their ideological differences, by the ego's of their two leaders (who have been unable to act in partnership while in opposition) and by the complete lack of leadership ability in the man who would become Taoiseach in said partnership . . a lack of leadership that was highlighted again this week with the George Lee fiasco and the ridiculous "I'm going to be myself" commentary. . .

Then we'll agree to disagree (again).

Because Ahern's ego was worse (Bertie Bowl project and the ridiculous "Bertie's Team" posters) as well as a refusal to acknowledge facts.

And "idealogical differences" at least mean that they have an ideology! The Green's promised that they wouldn't lie down with FF and did a u-turn on that straight away. Their ideology meant that Shannon and Tara were non-negotiable, but they negotiated (and you'd probably give them praise for what many viewed as "selling out").

What makes you think that FG and Labour couldn't do the same for the good of the country ?

hallelujajordan

Laminations wrote: »

You are right, as adults we should know better. .

Yes, we should. . we should know better than to buy a house that we cannot afford, with a mortgage that will cripple us over 35 years . . or to build a conservatory we don't need with the free money we got from the SSIA's . . or to upgrade our Ford Focus to a Volvo X60, cos 'we need the extra space for the kids' . . . or to max out the credit card on a foreign holiday, when really we should have stayed at home.

Or (critically) to keep voting for a government if we fundamentally don't agree with what they are doing just because, hey, we are doing allright out of it !!

We share collective responsibility because a) we spent much of the celtic tiger wealth on ourselves and b) we get the government we vote for.

hallelujajordan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

What makes you think that FG and Labour couldn't do the same for the good of the country ?

If they cannot partner in opposition 'for the good of the country' why should I believe they will do so in government ?

johngalway

hallelujajordan wrote: »

If they cannot partner in opposition 'for the good of the country' why should I believe they will do so in government ?

They are both looking to maximise their own votes in opposition. That gives each party X amount of bargaining power. Partering in opposition is a bit bizarre, may as well merge into one party in that case and I don't see the point in that.

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

If they cannot partner in opposition 'for the good of the country' why should I believe they will do so in government ?

I gave the example - where in opposition The Green's not only didn't side with FF, but detested them and swore "no way".

But in Government they stuck by them through thick and thin, even when they had a chance to right their wrongs.

So if The Greens can do it from that starting point why can't you believe that FG & Labour can ?

Or have you used up all your scope for stretching credibility by assuming that FF has learned and improved from the recent past and "is the best option" ?

And what about "the past is the past" ? What FG & Labour have done to date is irrelevant, based on your musings in other threads.......we're not allowed to judge FF based on their past decisions, policies, and failings so why are you insisting that we judge FG & Labour on theirs ?

You party allegiance is blinding you completely at this stage, you're simply not prepared to give ANYONE other than FF any benefit of the doubt.

I was objective earlier and said that even if FG & Labour were as bad as FF (which I don't think is possible) the lack of corruption would be an improvement.

paddyland

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Yes, we should. . we should know better than to buy a house that we cannot afford, with a mortgage that will cripple us over 35 years

Are you suggesting I should have bought a house I COULD afford? Because I seemed to miss that option when my turn came. For every €5,000 I saved towards a deposit, prices went up €50,000 under FF, the speculator's party. It would have been nice if they had left a few affordable houses for those of us who simply wanted somewhere to live.

I spent years living in miserable bedsits and flats, paying rent to unscrupulous and unregulated landlords. I could have handed over all my earnings for better accommodation, and saved nothing. Why should I hand away all my hard earned salary to some FF voting landlord who won't even fix a leaking roof? At the moment, I am handing away all my hard earned salary to a bank. But at least I have the promise of some day not having to pay any more. Do you think I trust FF enough to spend the rest of my life paying rent, living in a society dominated by a party of greedy, selfish property speculators, with no vested interest only to keep pushing rents up, and up, and up, for the rest of my life?

I take full responsibility for my own decisions. I pay my own mortgage, and look for handouts from nobody. But it would be nice to have the option of living in a fair society, where one political party doesn't rape the country's assets for their own speculative gain. I don't have that option under FF, the banker's friends, the developer's friends, the speculator's friends.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

We share collective responsibility because a) we spent much of the celtic tiger wealth on ourselves and b) we get the government we vote for.

Except some of us never saw Celtic Tiger wealth to spend, and got the government somebody else voted for.

Laminations

Red_Marauder wrote: »

...the hopeless whingery of some elements of this society, who frown in a blue funk, always looking backwards into other people's mistakes.

Get over it.

That sounds like something Bertie would say.
Look I'm an optimist, I hope for a new government. Even if they were to make the same harsh cuts as FF are making (a lot of which are needed), I'd happily take my medicide from them as they didnt wreck the place. I'd have difficulty being told to tighten my belt by the people who encouraged me to buy big trousers.

Just to be clear, apart from my education, I didnt get greedy or benefit hugely from the Celtic Tiger. I lived at home with no car and no prospect of buying an over priced house of my own. Can I credit FF with educating me? yeah I suppose. I'm now educated enough to vote for an alternative. This isn't simply whingeing, we are trying to convince people not to vote FF again, cos some people see that as the best for the country. You wanna look forward? so do I. You wanna forget the past? Not a chance