The Oldest Atheist in the world

Stephentlig

Could anyone here please qoute me evidence of the oldest known atheist to mankind in the world? i've been on other forums, but cant seem to get an answer.

thank you and God bless
Stephen.

jhegarty

Oldest still alive , or the first one to live ?

Stephentlig

jhegarty wrote: »

Oldest still alive , or the first one to live ?

Ha ha!! sorry I wasnt more specific, the first one to live I mean.:D

GLaDOS

Here's a starting point

Weidii

Well, considering humans invented the idea of religion, I'm sure the oldest atheist is the first animal which was born as Homo sapiens.

Stephentlig

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Here's a starting point

Science nerd thank you for your contribution to the thread. although its a start, isnt there anything prior to this? anything older?

Stephentlig

Weidii wrote: »

Well, considering humans invented the idea of religion, I'm sure the oldest atheist is the first animal which was born as Homo sapiens.

Supposing that evoltution was true ( which I dont believe it is ) wouldnt there be evidence that they were atheists? rather than us just presupposing and assuming they were atheists?

so basically I'm asking for evidence for the first atheistic human being, not theorys or might bes.

thank you for your help weidii.

GLaDOS

Stephentlig wrote: »

Science nerd thank you for your contribution to the thread. although its a start, isnt there anything prior to this? anything older?

I'm sure there is, this is just the first thing I thought of :pac:

I've heard there was an isolated tribe that never had any sort of religion or belief in the afterlife, I'll see if I can find anything.

What are you hoping for?

Cave drawings saying "there is no god"?

Stephentlig

ScienceNerd wrote: »

I'm sure there is, this is just the first thing I thought of :pac:

I've heard there was an isolated tribe that never had any sort of religion or belief in the afterlife, I'll see if I can find anything.

thats great Science nerd, with respect I would though like to avoid anything that looks like a rumour such as the tribe you mentioned, but if you can get me evidence on it then that would be most interesting. thank you for taking the time to respond to the thread.

Stephen

robindch

ScienceNerd wrote: »

I've heard there was an isolated tribe that never had any sort of religion or belief in the afterlife, I'll see if I can find anything.

That's the Pirahã Indians of the Amazon you're thinking of.

Documented in enjoyable detail in this book.

kev9100

If you don't mind me asking, why are you looking for the oldest Atheist ever? Is it for research or are you just curious?

iUseVi

Certainly atheism was described by the ancient Greeks as posted above, but as for a particular person who was first documented, hmm dunno.

robindch

Stephentlig wrote: »

Supposing that evoltution was true ( which I dont believe it is ) wouldnt there be evidence that they were atheists? rather than us just presupposing and assuming they were atheists?

Not wishing to throw the thread off-topic, what exact connection is there between evolution being an accurate or inaccurate description of biological change over time, and the existence of evidence that people in the past did not believe in whatever deities were current at the time?

Back on-topic, psalm 14 wouldn't have ranted thusly:

Psalm 14 wrote:

"The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good.

...if there hadn't been atheists around to rant against at the time when it was written.

And since most religious people deny the existence of the god or gods of the religions to which they don't belong, technically then, most religious people have pretty strong atheistic tendencies too.

Hence, as soon as religion arose, there would have been people who were functionally atheists.

Stephentlig

robindch wrote: »

That's the Pirahã Indians of the Amazon you're thinking of.

Documented in enjoyable detail in this book.

is there any evidence to suggest that this tribe never had contact with the modern world in the tribes history of existence?

Stephentlig

And since most religious people deny the existence of the god or gods of the religions to which they don't belong, technically then, most religious people have pretty strong atheistic tendencies too.

I dont deny the existence of the God that islam and Judaism believe in, I only dont beleive their view of him.

muppeteer

A quick wiki search brought up this 5th century BC Greek
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagoras_of_Melos

And Epicurus was winning 300 years before 33AD:D:D:D:D

Stephentlig

muppeteer wrote: »

A quick wiki search brought up this 5th century BC Greek
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagoras_of_Melos

And Epicurus was winning 300 years before 33AD:D:D:D:D

anything older than this muppeteer?

thanks:)

robindch

Stephentlig wrote: »

is there any evidence to suggest that this tribe never had contact with the modern world in the tribes history of existence?

They do not have any serious oral tradition, so it's not possible to say. However, in the absence of any reliable information to contrary, it's believed that the guy who wrote that book was the first non-member of the tribe who learned their weird language.

He suggests some rather interesting reasons as to why the various missionaries who've spent many years trying to get the Pirahã to abandon their traditions have failed to do so.

Stephentlig wrote:

I dont deny the existence of the God that islam and Judaism believe in, I only dont beleive their view of him.

Well, as with your deity, the view of a believer defines the deity. Hence, either you accept the view that Allah, Jehovah, etc, etc are the sole, omnipotent, omniscient etc deities, or you reject the views, in which case you're effectively denying the existence of these fine deities, and, well, welcome to the club!

robindch

Stephentlig wrote: »

anything older than this muppeteer?

There was some muppet called David who wrote some psalms ranting about the stupidity of atheists perhaps as much as 700 years before Diagoras showed up.

See this post for details.

GLaDOS

robindch wrote: »

He suggests some rather interesting reasons as to why the various missionaries who've spent many years trying to get the Pirahã to abandon their traditions have failed to do so.

In some cases in fact it seems to have gone the other way

Stephentlig

They do not have any serious oral tradition, so it's not possible to say. However, in the absence of any reliable information to contrary, it's believed that the guy who wrote that book was the first non-member of the tribe who learned their weird language.

how do we know he is the first to learn it? perhaps there were others who learned it previous to him not recorded in history? and how do we know for certain there were not?

Well, as with your deity, the view of a believer defines the deity. Hence, either you accept the view that Allah, Jehovah, etc, etc are the sole, omnipotent, omniscient etc deities, or you reject the views, in which case you're effectively denying the existence of these fine deities, and, well, welcome to the club!

although we deny each others veiw of him does not detract from our equal beleif in there being only one God, which makes none of us atheistic at all, as we all beleive in a creator.

Stephentlig

robindch wrote: »

There was some muppet called David who wrote some psalms ranting about the stupidity of atheists perhaps as much as 700 years before Diagoras showed up.

See this post for details.

anything earliar than that robin?

robindch

Stephentlig wrote: »

how do we know he is the first to learn it? perhaps there were others who learned it previous to him not recorded in history? and how do we know for certain there were not?

I'm not sure that you understood my original reply -- here it is again (I've highlighted the bits that are important):

robindch wrote:

They do not have any serious oral tradition, so it's not possible to say. However, in the absence of any reliable information to contrary, it's believed that the guy who wrote that book was the first non-member of the tribe who learned their weird language.

Stephentlig wrote: »

although we deny each others veiw of him does not detract from our equal beleif in there being only one God, which makes none of us atheistic at all, as we all beleive in a creator.

Yes, but you all believe that different creators exist, each one of which is the only creator. Hence, they can't all exist. I'm not sure if you're quite getting this point.

Stephentlig wrote:

anything earliar than that robin?

You've been given documents that go back to around the beginning of recorded human history, so going back further than that is going to be hard. I'm sure there's stuff from the Egyptian tradition that predates David, but I'm not going to look it up since you're not happy with anything that you've been given yet.

Perhaps if you let us know what exactly you are looking for, then perhaps you might get the answer you want?

robindch

ScienceNerd wrote: »

In some cases in fact it seems to have gone the other way

Yes, sad though that following his deconversion, his christian wife dumped him and took the kids.

Stephentlig

robindch wrote: »

I'm not sure that you understood my original reply -- here it is again (I've highlighted the bits that are important):Yes, but you all believe that different creators exist, each one of which is the only creator. Hence, they can't all exist. I'm not sure if you're quite getting this point.You've been given documents that go back to around the beginning of recorded human history, so going back further than that is going to be hard. I'm sure there's stuff from the Egyptian tradition that predates David, but I'm not going to look it up since you're not happy with anything that you've been given yet.

Perhaps if you let us know what exactly you are looking for, then perhaps you might get the answer you want?

no we dont all believe different creators exist, we beleive that there is only One God, and one creator, our views of this one creator is different, however the Christian one is the true view but this does not make me atheist as I beleive in a God/creator.

the beginning of recorded human history? the psalms? they are beleived to be a few thousands years old BC are they not? dont you believe that the world is millions of years old? if you beleive in the beggining of recorded human history is in the Bible wouldnt this make you a creationist?

robindch

Stephentlig wrote: »

the Christian one is the true view but this does not make me atheist as I beleive in a God/creator.

What about Vishnu or Zoroaster and Zeus? Do they all exist also? And all the other thousands or millions of gods whose believer populations have come and gone?

Stephentlig wrote: »

the beginning of recorded human history? the psalms? they are beleived to be a few thousands years old BC are they not? dont you believe that the world is millions of years old? if you beleive in the beggining of recorded human history is in the Bible wouldnt this make you a creationist?

Note the word "RECORDED" in my sentence -- it is possible for things to exist, even if they are not recorded by somebody (say, the formation of the Solar System, billions of years before people invented language, writing, paper and pens).

YraggarY

Stephentlig wrote: »

no we dont all believe different creators exist, we beleive that there is only One God, and one creator, our views of this one creator is different, however the Christian one is the true view but this does not make me atheist as I beleive in a God/creator.

Astounding. :eek: Wouldn't a follower of Judaism or Islam believe that THEIR view is the true one? Whats makes your view the correct one?

Stephentlig wrote: »

the beginning of recorded human history? the psalms? they are beleived to be a few thousands years old BC are they not? dont you believe that the world is millions of years old? if you beleive in the beggining of recorded human history is in the Bible wouldnt this make you a creationist?

Humans did not exist millions of years ago, therefore, how is that poster a Creationist? Another point that needs clarification is that atheists know that the earth is approximately 4.55 billion years old. Are Christian fundamentalists really so ignorant of the concept of the Big Bang, evolution, and the views of others?! :eek:
"... the beginning of recorded human history" means just that: the furthest back that records go (be they writings, books, artifacts etc.) How on earth did the poster imply that the beginning of recorded human history is in the bible?!

Do excuse the expression, but good lord!

- G

strobe

Stephentlig wrote: »

I dont deny the existence of the God that islam and Judaism believe in, I only dont beleive their view of him.

Is it just evidence of a disbelief in the Abrahamic god you're looking for cause that goes back about 70,000 years if that's what you're wondering. If you are happy to except implied evidence of a complete lack of belief in a diety, there are cave paintings in southern France dating to about 30,000 years ago that are all made up of images of animals and hand prints, naturalistic things, but never representations of one true god, or anything that could reasonably be interpreted as a creator. It's a leap but it's not completely exaggerated to presume that if these people had of believed in a diety then that's what they would have painted rather than horses and the other non supernatural things they saw about them every day.

jhegarty

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Here's a starting point

Wasn't he dead about 300 years by 33 AD ?

Dades

Stephentlig wrote: »

so basically I'm asking for evidence for the first atheistic human being, not theorys or might bes.

If you understood (a) what an atheist was, or (b) how homo sapiens actually evolved you would know how ridiculous that question is.

Daftendirekt

This wiki page might be a good starting point. It lists a few atheistic philosophies, among other stuff. I was surprised to see that certain branches of Hinduism are in there.

doctoremma

Stephentlig wrote: »

Could anyone here please qoute me evidence of the oldest known atheist to mankind in the world? i've been on other forums, but cant seem to get an answer.
thank you and God bless
Stephen.

IMO, the first ever "atheist" will have sprung into existence at the same second someone first mentioned any god.

rccaulfield

Seems ridiculous that someone who doesn't 'believe' in evolution(as if theres any need for belief in it) with its millions of supporting facts is looking for 'evidence' in an early atheist? If you dont believe the evidence written all over your body of our evolution why would you believe anything such as evidence for an early atheist in our recorded history?
I mean your not gonna get much past the egyptians because human recorded history only began then in any meaningful way! By the way your an atheist of thousands of gods just like us- we however go one further! On a side note i can tell from your posts you don't even understand what the word theory means! It doesn't mean hypothesis it means a massive collection of facts. It is a higher order of fact then the word fact itself. In maths its called thereom and in science its pronounced theory. Hope this helps you!

Zombrex

Stephentlig wrote: »

Supposing that evoltution was true ( which I dont believe it is ) wouldnt there be evidence that they were atheists? rather than us just presupposing and assuming they were atheists?

so basically I'm asking for evidence for the first atheistic human being, not theorys or might bes.

thank you for your help weidii.

There is evidence they were all atheists.

Religious behaviour appears in human cultures about 100,000 years ago, first seen in archeology through the burial of the dead with possessions (a sign that humans had started to think of an after-life)

Before that there was no indication that humans practiced any religious behaviour. They left the dead where they died.

Malari

Wicknight wrote: »

There is evidence they were all atheists.

Religious behaviour appears in human cultures about 100,000 years ago, first seen in archeology through the burial of the dead with possessions (a sign that humans had started to think of an after-life)

Before that there was no indication that humans practiced any religious behaviour. They left the dead where they died.

Exactly. Atheism is the default condition for any Homo species. Only around the time of ritualistic behaviours around death was there a reason to suppose people started believing in afterlifes, etc.

Stephentlig

robindch wrote: »

What about Vishnu or Zoroaster and Zeus? Do they all exist also? And all the other thousands or millions of gods whose believer populations have come and gone?Note the word "RECORDED" in my sentence -- it is possible for things to exist, even if they are not recorded by somebody (say, the formation of the Solar System, billions of years before people invented language, writing, paper and pens).

but whether or not I beleive in their view, it does not make me atheistic as I believe there is a God.

If it is possible for things to exist without any evidence of that existence, then our theories are just assumptions and no more real than an episode of the wildest fairytale going.

I remember being in the car with my father and I asked him, ''dad, isnt a theorie though the best explanation of something we have no evidence for? and arent scientists more clever than we are?'' he replied ''Son, you can be intelligently stupid''.

however I'm afraid I'm gonna have to conclude this conversation as I'm on the hunt for evidence of the oldest atheist, not the worlds longest debate. My study is aimed at proving how atheism was invented and ( you'll have to be Christian to believe this one) is a result of original sin.

Thank you
Pax Christi.

Stephen.

Malari

Stephentlig wrote: »

but whether or not I beleive in their view, it does not make me atheistic as I believe there is a God.

If it is possible for things to exist without any evidence of that existence, then our theories are just assumptions and no more real than an episode of the wildest fairytale going.

I remember being in the car with my father and I asked him, ''dad, isnt a theorie though the best explanation of something we have no evidence for? and arent scientists more clever than we are?'' he replied ''Son, you can be intelligently stupid''.

however I'm afraid I'm gonna have to conclude this conversation as I'm on the hunt for evidence of the oldest atheist, not the worlds longest debate. My study is aimed at proving how atheism was invented and ( you'll have to be Christian to believe this one) is a result of original sin.

Thank you
Pax Christi.

Stephen.

That explains some things.

fatmammycat

Stephentlig wrote: »

but whether or not I beleive in their view, it does not make me atheistic as I believe there is a God.

If it is possible for things to exist without any evidence of that existence, then our theories are just assumptions and no more real than an episode of the wildest fairytale going.

I remember being in the car with my father and I asked him, ''dad, isnt a theorie though the best explanation of something we have no evidence for? and arent scientists more clever than we are?'' he replied ''Son, you can be intelligently stupid''.

however I'm afraid I'm gonna have to conclude this conversation as I'm on the hunt for evidence of the oldest atheist, not the worlds longest debate. My study is aimed at proving how atheism was invented and ( you'll have to be Christian to believe this one) is a result of original sin.

Thank you
Pax Christi.

Stephen.

* shakes head* Some people are [....]

.

robindch

Stephentlig wrote: »

but whether or not I beleive in their view, it does not make me atheistic as I believe there is a God.

It makes you atheistic with respect to their gods, not with respect to your own. Since (I presume) you don't think that the elephant god Ganesh exists, therefore you are atheistic with respect to Ganesh. And lots of others to, I imagine.

Stephentlig wrote: »

I'm on the hunt for evidence of the oldest atheist

I think you really need to start off by understanding what atheism is. As we've pointed out, once people started believing in gods, the idea of not believing in gods began to acquire some meaning (as oppose to just being the default state of everybody up to that point). And that happened a long time before Jesus showed up with his own particular religious views that people could then become atheistic with respect to.

Stephentlig wrote: »

My study is aimed at proving how atheism was invented and (you'll have to be Christian to believe this one) is a result of original sin.

Atheism was not "invented". It's the natural state that people are born into. Belief in some specific religion must be actively acquired.

eoin5

rccaulfield wrote: »

On a side note i can tell from your posts you don't even understand what the word theory means! It doesn't mean hypothesis it means a massive collection of facts. It is a higher order of fact then the word fact itself. In maths its called thereom and in science its pronounced theory. Hope this helps you!

Sorry for going OT here but I've never heard anything like that. Where did you pick that up?

Zombrex

Stephentlig wrote: »

My study is aimed at proving how atheism was invented and ( you'll have to be Christian to believe this one) is a result of original sin.

Given that all historical evidence points to the opposite conclusion, that seems a bit of an odd thing to set out to prove.

Do you like being disappointed? :pac:

28064212

Stephentlig wrote: »

My study is aimed at proving how atheism was invented and ( you'll have to be Christian to believe this one) is a result of original sin.

Well, first problem, research isn't supposed to be aimed at proving a specific opinion, it's supposed to be about establishing which viewpoint is true. Your entire approach is based on a premise which you are making a huge assumption about.

Secondly, even if you were to accept the Christian version of the first humans, the Adam and Eve story, you seem to be implying that children are born with some sort of heriditary belief, from the moment of conception. I very much doubt whether you are going to gain much support, even in the Christian community, with that viewpoint.

Sam Vimes

Stephentlig wrote: »

but whether or not I beleive in their view, it does not make me atheistic as I believe there is a God.

I think it's safe to assume that you view atheism as a belief system built around the belief in no god but of course that's not what it is. It's the lack of belief in god or gods. You lack belief in thousands and thousands of gods. You are an atheist with respect to them

Stephentlig wrote: »

however I'm afraid I'm gonna have to conclude this conversation as I'm on the hunt for evidence of the oldest atheist, not the worlds longest debate. My study is aimed at proving how atheism was invented and ( you'll have to be Christian to believe this one) is a result of original sin.

As Wicknight says, you're highly likely to be disappointed. You're probably looking for some evidence that the descendants of Adam and Eve had a belief system built around belief in no god but I'm sorry to tell you this mate: you won't find any evidence for that because Adam and Eve never existed. Unless they looked like this:

Dades

Stephentlig wrote: »

My study is aimed at proving how atheism was invented and (you'll have to be Christian to believe this one) is a result of original sin.

Sounds to me like your aim is to find "evidence" to fit your immovable conclusion.

Unfortunately that evidence, like that of "Christian Science", ain't worth crap to anyone who isn't also a like-minded Christian.

Sam Vimes

Dades wrote: »

Sounds to me like your aim is to find "evidence" to fit your immovable conclusion.

Unfortunately that evidence, like that of "Christian Science", ain't worth crap to anyone who isn't also a like-minded Christian.

True. If he's to follow in the footsteps of those before him then the total lack of evidence to support his theory shouldn't even be a hindrance

Galvasean

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Unless they looked like this:

[pedantic]Darwinius (AKA Ida) is not actually the direct ancestor of humans, but rather an evolutionary 'cousin' of our actual ancestor which shared many of it's traits.[/pedantic]

Dades

Galvasean wrote: »

[pedantic]Darwinius (AKA Ida) is not actually the direct ancestor of humans, but rather an evolutionary 'cousin' of our actual ancestor which shared many of it's traits.[/pedantic]

Yes, but was it an atheist or a believer? :pac:

Galvasean

Galvasean wrote:

Dades wrote: »

Yes, but was it an atheist or a believer? :pac:

Best evidence suggests that it was atheist.

AHA!!
So it seems that THE foolissh evolution m onkey is ................ spontaneous DEAD end!!! :eek::eek::pac::pac::):D:D:D:pac::eek:

...............haHA!!!!! :pac:

iUseVi

Dades wrote: »

Yes, but was it an atheist or a believer? :pac:

Also, it is vitally important that we find out what its favourite ice-cream was.

Who says sarcasm doesn't work on the internet?

Turtwig

Stephentlig wrote: »

I remember being in the car with my father and I asked him, ''dad, isnt a theorie though the best explanation of something we have no evidence for? and arent scientists more clever than we are?'' he replied ''Son, you can be intelligently stupid''.

Scientific theories are based on testable evidence.
No testable evidence == no scientific theory.