Ravings or reality?

kryogen

Sorry lads, maybe i should put this in CT, or maybe its been posted before? apologies either way, but while doing my research on the 74 world cup (thanks to redout and his mind melting question)

came across this, i hadnt read it before

not sure how much stock i would put in it, but considering what we know about match fixing and corruption these days surely its possible to have been going on years ago too, plus it would tarnish England winning the WC!

http://www.goal.com/en/news/9/england/2008/06/26/753029/1966-1974-world-cups-were-fixed-former-fifa-president

1966 & 1974 World Cups Were Fixed - Former FIFA President
Former FIFA President Joao Havelange has made some quite sensational, and potentially damaging, allegations by claiming that the 1966 and 1974 World Cups were fixed so that England and Germany would win respectively.

The 1966 World Cup held in England has been the centre of a number of conspiracy theories over the years. These include England’s quarter final victory over Argentina when the hosts won 1-0 after the South Americans had seen their captain Antonio Rattin controversially handed a straight red card for arguing with the referee.

It has been claimed that there was a plot for England to win the World Cup, and the referee from this game was German, while the official in Germany’s quarter final win over Uruguay was English. The controversy continued in the final with Geoff Hurst’s famous ‘was it over the line?’ goal.

Joao Havelange, who was FIFA President from 1974 until 1998 is certain to have further fuelled these conspiracy theories by openly stating that the 1966 and ’74 World Cups were fixed.

"In the three matches that the Brazilian national team played in 1966, of the three referees and six linesmen, seven were British and two were Germans," Havelange told Folha de Sao Paulo.

"Brazil went out, Pele ‘exited’ through injury [following some rough defensive play], and England and Germany entered into the final, just as the Englishman Sir Stanley Rous, who was the President of FIFA at the time, had wanted.

"In Germany in 1974 the same thing happened. During the Brazil-Holland match, the referee was German, we lost 2-0 and Germany won the title," said Havelange.

"We were the best in the world, and had the same team that had won the World Cup in 1962 in Chile and 1970 in Mexico, but it was planned for the host countries to win.”

World Cup hosts have been at the centre of many conspiracy claims over the year. In 1978 Argentina needed to beat Copa America holders Peru by four clear goals to reach the final ahead of Brazil. They won 6-0 but their were dark rumours that Peru, who had an Argentine-born goalkeeper, had thrown the game. Meanwhile in 2002, minnows South Korea were at the centre of similar claims as they finished fourth after seeing a host of dubious decisions go their way in the victories over Italy and Spain.

DazMarz

There have been many theories bandied about all over the place regarding results in football matches, since the time of the immemorial.

But that is not to say that there would be truth in some of them... Host nations in World Cups would have a certain advantage, and that may have nothing to do with 'home' advantage... Influencing game officials is often mooted, but often dismissed.

It is not inconceivable that in the interests of making more money or whatever that officials, organisations, individual players etc. would be influenced to alter results through means that would be deemed unsporting (goalkeepers deliberately missing shots; refs not giving clear-cut penalties etc.).

I personally am loathe to believe most of these theories... But sometimes they are very hard to ignore...

redout

The South Korea semi-final appearance was well ropey.

Remembr there game against the Italians ?

Them officials were either blind or on crack.

The_B_Man

Wow, South Korea in 2002? If we beat Spain on them penalties, that woulda been us they were playing!!

kryogen

the South Korea v Italy game was a shambles in terms of officiating alright

i just dont know enough about the ones mentioned in the article to have much opinion either way

i wouldnt rule cheating out, but i wouldnt jump straight into believing it either

starbelgrade

I reckon the match in "Escape to Victory" was a fix, or at the very least, a set up - sure, Pele was a genius, Ardiles the ultimate trickster & Booby Moore a legend, but even with those players on your side.. nobody could win a game with Rocky in goal & Michael Caine as your captain.

kryogen

is it bad that i really really really like that film?

UnitedIrishman

South Korea getting so far was very dodgy. I mean Spain had a clear goal chalked off for the ball 'apparently' being out of play, and a further series of dodge decisions. Then follow that with Tomassi's denied goal and Totti's sending off against Italy. Add in the fact that both referee's were from obscure places in the world. Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it's a duck.

The 1978 WC aswell is debateable. Read David Winners 'Neurotic Genius of Dutch Football' on the matter. It wasn't so much match fixing but referee's were intimidated by the police and army, teams were intimidated. Remember, this is the time that people are simply 'disappearing' in Argentina under a dictatorship.

starbelgrade

kryogen wrote: »

is it bad that i really really really like that film?

Film? It was a documentary FFS.

Boskowski

kryogen wrote: »

"In Germany in 1974 the same thing happened. During the Brazil-Holland match, the referee was German, we lost 2-0 and Germany won the title," said Havelange.[/I]

Ye right. '...and Germany won the title' which was practically a given what with Holland being an easy pushover.

Completely ignoring the fact that Holland was actually the best team in the world at the time and simply was defeated by a more robust & industrious (and a little luckier) side who had the (arguably) best striker ever in their ranks and wasn't too far behind them anyway.

Unfortunately Holland repeated that dubious feat 4 years later to become the greatest side ever IMHO to have not been crowned World Champions.

Bubs101

redout wrote: »

The South Korea semi-final appearance was well ropey.

Remembr there game against the Italians ?

Them officials were either blind or on crack.

Moreno. Absolute tool. For those who can't remember Italy had a perfectly good goal ruled out either just before extra time or just after it started (was golden goal) and then towards the end Totti got fouled in the box and got sent off for diving. Was an absolute disgrace and extremely fishy. George Hook

starbelgrade

I'm in love with a robot,

Yours sincerely,

G. Hook

Nehaxak

One would wonder why Fifa are so resistant to having video evidence made available during games. I mean really, how could anyone ever think a ref or linesman would be so corrupt as to allow a goal created by a nice little flick of the hand to put the favorite team through to the world cup... God no, that would never happen now would it ?

Seroiusly, it would absolutely destroy Fifa and the professional aspect of the sport itself if it were ever proven that teams, players, refs and fifa themselves were on the take and fixing games.

It would be worse though if nothing were ever done about it.

I stopped taking any interest in professional boxing years ago because of fights being thrown, worst one being that cock that got in the ring against Tyson and started crying ffs.

Can you imagine the uproar among fans if they found out their teams' players where throwing games ?

The game would be ruined if stuff like this were true. I'd hope it were not true at all but where money of such vast amounts are involved, I wouldn't put it past it happening and/or being sanctioned from such a high level.

kryogen

kryogen wrote: »

"In the three matches that the Brazilian national team played in 1966, of the three referees and six linesmen, seven were British and two were Germans," Havelange told Folha de Sao Paulo.

"Brazil went out, Pele ‘exited’ through injury [following some rough defensive play], and England and Germany entered into the final, just as the Englishman Sir Stanley Rous, who was the President of FIFA at the time, had wanted.

"In Germany in 1974 the same thing happened. During the Brazil-Holland match, the referee was German, we lost 2-0 and Germany won the title," said Havelange.

"We were the best in the world, and had the same team that had won the World Cup in 1962 in Chile and 1970 in Mexico, but it was planned for the host countries to win.”

Sour grapes imo considering he is Brazilian

everdead.ie

starbelgrade wrote: »

I'm in love with Sky's series link,

Yours sincerely,

G. Hook

FYP:P

Guy:Incognito

Is this not old news? I seem to remember a thread on this at least a year ago, probably more. Or does he just waffle on about it every now and then?

ROCKMAN

Don't know about absolute match fixing , But I believe FIFA favours and are very biased to the larger Countries and treat them different especially when facing bans or discipling matters , Forget the joke that was the late seeding of the world cup play-off games, totally biased IMO,
Look at the infamous Germany V Austria match in the 82 World Cup (the one where both teams stop playing the minute the result suited both/both when through ) Yes a complaint was lodged but was any action taken ,HELL NO, Why ? One of the big boys was involved IMO . Do you think they're would be a lack of FIFA action if the game involved Austria v Wales , Luxemburg or even yourselfs.
Think they would have thrown the book at them/us.

Ush1

redout wrote: »

The South Korea semi-final appearance was well ropey.

Remembr there game against the Italians ?

Them officials were either blind or on crack.

It was unreal, watched it with my Italian mate and thought he was gonna wreck the pub, was going mental!:pac:

HalloweenJack

starbelgrade wrote: »

Film? It was a documentary FFS.

Please tell me your joking.

Mitch Connor

kryogen wrote: »

is it bad that i really really really like that film?

its awesome. Pele playing with a broken rib.

The 'Pele' flick that Pele didn't do.

Awesomeness.

starbelgrade

starbelgrade wrote: »

Film? It was a documentary FFS.

http://smoothfewfilms.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/facepalm2ly3.jpg

IvySlayer

The_B_Man wrote: »

Wow, South Korea in 2002? If we beat Spain on them penalties, that woulda been us they were playing!!

Yes and we would've been playing Germany, so you never know. Good old days of Ian HARTE HARTE HARTE!

starbelgrade

rarnes1 wrote: »

http://smoothfewfilms.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/facepalm2ly3.jpg

The_Kew_Tour

Just thinking there lads here something that just come across me

Trapattoni was in charge of Italy in 2002 for that Korea match.

He was also in charge of Italy in Euro 2004 when in last game of group Italy needed to beat Bulgaria which they did and hoped that anything but 2-2 would send them through from the other game

However in the other game in the group Denamrk and Sweden in that group played out 2-2. Both Sweden and Denmark knew a 2-2 draw would send both teams through. Normally a 2-2 draw is about 14/1 or so but for this game the odds were as low as 7/2. Surprise Surprise UEFA dont investigate.

And then that night in Paris.

and there was people saying he was lucky manager eh:rolleyes:

sorry for going little off topic but just soemthing that came across me while reading this

Good topic btw

adrian280582

adrian280582 wrote: »

However in the other game in the group Denamrk and Sweden in that group played out 2-2. Both Sweden and Denmark knew a 2-2 draw would send both teams through. Normally a 2-2 draw is about 14/1 or so but for this game the odds were as low as 7/2. Surprise Surprise UEFA dont investigate.

Sorry, but what difference does it make if it's 2-2 or 1-1 or 3-3? It's all the same in goal difference.

Bubs101

Papa Smut wrote: »

Sorry, but what difference does it make if it's 2-2 or 1-1 or 3-3? It's all the same in goal difference.

Because the odds for the draw were so low then obviously the odds for each correct score that was a draw would be very low compared to normal whereas a win for either team would have been higher than normal. 1-1 and 0-0 would have been lower than 7-2 in all likelyhood

28064212

Papa Smut wrote: »

Sorry, but what difference does it make if it's 2-2 or 1-1 or 3-3? It's all the same in goal difference.

Because the teams finished level on goal-difference, so it became a matter of goals scored

Mr. Presentable

Football is crooked. From the top down. There is quite simply too much money at stake for it to be straight.

I firmly believe that there is in every international tournament a great deal of "massaging" of the draw and the match itself. It is even worse at club level. The draws are bent in the CL - we all know that whether we like to admit it or not - and the matches are "persuaded" towards the desired result.

In the domestic leagues, it is no coincidence that every big club is accused of getting favours from officials. Look at the boards of the associations and their affiliations, you can predict who will be successful at the top level.

The_Kew_Tour

Papa Smut wrote: »

Sorry, but what difference does it make if it's 2-2 or 1-1 or 3-3? It's all the same in goal difference.

as one the posts pointed out it came down to goals scored so 0-0 or 1-1 would meant Italy got through

Bubs101

adrian280582 wrote: »

as one the posts pointed out it came down to goals scored so 0-0 or 1-1 would meant Italy got through

Didn't they change the rules after that tournament that ensured that all the group games on the last day had to be played at the same time?

28064212

Bubs101 wrote: »

Didn't they change the rules after that tournament that ensured that all the group games on the last day had to be played at the same time?

The two games were played at the same time, and even if they weren't, it would have been irrelevant. The way the group worked out, it didn't matter if Italy scored 100, once Denmark and Sweden drew 2-2 Italy couldn't qualify

HalloweenJack

Bubs101 wrote: »

Didn't they change the rules after that tournament that ensured that all the group games on the last day had to be played at the same time?

They made that rule after the 82 WC when Algeria were knocked out once Austria beat W Germany 1-0.

The goal came in the first few minutes and then the game died.