The Burka. Should wearing it be banned?

djpbarry

Laminations wrote: »

Banned? I'm talking about a restriction, and one restriction does not an oppressive country make.

Depends on the restriction and how one defines ‘oppressive’.

djpbarry

LeoB wrote: »

...I think its about time we started to place restrictions on "other" people coming here whether the be Muslim, Hindu or whatever. They may not be breaking a law but in my opinion they are making a big statement and I dont like it.

What statement is this?

LeoB wrote: »

In my opinion we have lost the run of ourselves bending over backwards to facilitate every nationality which has come to these shores.

In my opinion, some people have lost the run of themselves in claiming that this country is ‘bending over backwards’ to accommodate immigrants. Can you give me an example of a right that is afforded immigrants that is not afforded to Irish nationals?

LeoB wrote: »

...I feel we should stop and look inward and try and recover some of the good things we have lost over the last few years...

Like our credit rating? I’m not sure how banning garments will aid us in this endeavour?

Permabear

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Laminations

donegalfella wrote: »

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And a tradition in and of itself is not a purpose. A tradition is simply something that has been done before for a long time, there still needs to be a purpose (although this purpose may indeed change with time). The purpose of Halloween was originally to celebrate a celtic/pagan festival but now it is to engage in trick-or-treating, wearing costumes, attending costume parties, carving pumpkins, ghost tours, bonfires, apple bobbing, visiting haunted attractions, pranks, telling scary stories, watching horror films.....etc.

What is the purpose of the tradition of wearing the niqab?

donegalfella wrote: »

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You keep personalising this for muslims. If decency laws are determined by the majority wishes of a society, and hibitual face covering falls short of decency (described as an individual's adherence to social standards of appropriate speech and conduct) in western societies then it is up to the majority. This cannot simply be compared to other forms of attire like you are trying to do.

My argument is not anti-Islam, so get over trying to frame it that way.

P. Breathnach

donegalfella wrote: »

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What a wife wears can matter to her husband: she might ask the classic question: "does my bum look big in this?".

Laminations

Look I believe I'm quite liberal and tolerant and I completely agree with the right to the freedom of expression (although I do not believe it is an absolute right, I'm not sure whether you do). I do get the impression that you think you are somehow better than me because of your views you hold on this issue, but I may be wrong.

You, like me, believe that you are free to do and dress how you want in public as long as you are not hurting other people or infringing on their rights. Am I correct here?

The only difference (I think, and again correct me if I'm wrong) is that I believe habitual face covering or situational face covering that has the motive of concealing identity, although not infringing on anyone elses individual rights does damage or hurt society (by dehumanising and therefore privatising public spaces and reducing ability of the members of said spaces to communicate). You think otherwise.

Can we leave it at that?

Permabear

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Permabear

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Permabear

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djpbarry

Laminations wrote: »

...I believe habitual face covering or situational face covering that has the motive of concealing identity, although not infringing on anyone elses individual rights does damage or hurt society (by dehumanising and therefore privatising public spaces and reducing ability of the members of said spaces to communicate).

Suppose I wear a burqa to keep my face warm and protect my skin from the harsh Irish winter? That’s a legitimate purpose, right?

Laminations

donegalfella wrote: »

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Well I do not mean to impute that at all, I'm in no way suspicious of anyone wearing a burqa, nor to I suspect them of any criminal activity...and have not suggested treating them like criminals. It just comes down to the importance (I place) on maintaining some degree of openess in public. I'm not casting aspersions on why one might cover their face but instead looking at the possible consequences of allowing unrestricted face covering. I think there can be damage to society from habitual face covering (such as the niqab) or situational face covering (for which the motive is purely identity concealment - such as the balaclava or stocking or ninja mask, if I were to cast aspersions it would be towards these situational cases)

donegalfella wrote: »

When it comes to weighing the interests of "society" against the rights of the individual, I will always come down on the side of the individual. Otherwise you get the "majority" voting on and legislating against things that are absolutely none of their rightful business.

What happens in public (and to some extent even in private), if it has the potential to harm society, is IMHO the business of others. Again we probably differ on this point

fontanalis

djpbarry wrote: »

Suppose I wear a burqa to keep my face warm and protect my skin from the harsh Irish winter? That’s a legitimate purpose, right?

Could be but let's not kid ourselves the burka is rooted in treating women like property and not trying to give self righteous assholes stiffies.

Laminations

djpbarry wrote: »

Suppose I wear a burqa to keep my face warm and protect my skin from the harsh Irish winter? That’s a legitimate purpose, right?

Yep I suppose it is...but a niqab is made of quite thin material so I dont think it'd do much good but yeah its legitimate. Whether its legitimate to keep it on (or indeed a scarf over your face - which would be a better option for the cold ) in a bank or a shop or a school* is another issue. Whether its polite to keep it on when you are talking to someone in public is another issue again, but one which I agree shouldn't be legislated for. All of these issues pertain to ALL types of face covering.

*I am aware these are 'private' premises but they are still public in the sense that you cant have sex in them. And thats the distinction I'm making here between private and public.

Permabear

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djpbarry

fontanalis wrote: »

...the burka is rooted in treating women like property and not trying to give self righteous assholes stiffies.

You sure about that?

fontanalis

djpbarry wrote: »

You sure about that?

Won't open, what's the gist of it. I'm sure I'm way off on the exact roots but why are women expected to cover up in the manner?

ChocolateSauce

djpbarry wrote: »

You sure about that?

I'm fairly sure he'd be allowed to take that off if he wanted to, which is more than you can say for women in countries like his.

LeoB

irishconvert wrote: »

I am Irish, I am also Muslim. What do you say to someone like me if my wife wants to wear a Niqab (you call it Burqa)?

Wear it in private.

LeoB

donegalfella wrote: »

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I dont like it all, I just happen to feel very uncomfortable with it. I never said stop people coming here on basis of religion.
I actually discussed this thread with 2 people after a meeting this evening and both said they found it intimadating. I dont I just dont like it being worn in public in Ireland
Ireland is a good place to live in my opinion. 90% of Irish people are very decent people. My experience of Irish people is that we are of a good nature, kind and caring in most cases. We contribute a lot to better the lives of a lot of less fortunate. Haiti, Rwanda, Darfur The earthquake in Pakistan..............

I agree we are world leaders in doling out welfare especially to our massive welfare tourist population. We have accumalated huge debt thanks to about 30 or 40 bankers who put their hands in our pockets and got away with it. As for the public servents well you choose a nice easy target there. Quite a few public servents do more than their fare share of good work, I deal with social workers a few days a week and they are magnificent people to deal with and always there when needed by me or my wife in dealing with needs of a young person we care for.

Yes there are more pressing problems facing Irish people at present and the wearing of the Burka is not one of them.

Its not my intention to offend you
I am far from racist as many of the non-nationals will tell you who I deal with every day. The opposite would be more accurate but I get a huge sense here that I am on a serious loser because I am opposed to the berka being worn in public Ban it and move on is my opinion.

djpbarry

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I'm fairly sure he'd be allowed to take that off if he wanted to, which is more than you can say for women in countries like his.

Not the point I was trying to make. I was alluding to the origins of the dress, but on reflection, it’s not really relevant so we won't get bogged down in it!

allisbleak

I was reading the other burqa thread and these ??? popped into my head.


What happens when you go through airports/customs with a burqa on?

Are muslim women here allowed to drive while wearing the burqa?

Do they need permission from their husband?

Would the cops be allowed to unveil (?) it to verify the womans identity?

LeoB

djpbarry wrote: »

What statement is this?
In my opinion, some people have lost the run of themselves in claiming that this country is ‘bending over backwards’ to accommodate immigrants. Can you give me an example of a right that is afforded immigrants that is not afforded to Irish nationals?
Like our credit rating? I’m not sure how banning garments will aid us in this endeavour?

Hop of a plane, Get a house, rent paid, medical card, vouchers for lots of goodies, free education....... Dont understand boss.
They then seek political asylum and hey presto 6 months later they head home to check on their family. They dont have any money for anything, why? they send it home and they wonder where all the money is going. Stand and watch them using Western Union or Fed Ex money transfer. I see this much to often.
Irish people dont get the same treatment. The immigrant cries racism if they are refused and soon get sorted.
I SEE IT EVERY DAY.

Maybe this is clouding my view of the Burka.

Anyway no more replies from me.

P. Breathnach

LeoB wrote: »

Hop of a plane, Get a house, rent paid, medical card, vouchers for lots of goodies, free education....... Dont understand boss.
They then seek political asylum and hey presto 6 months later they head home to check on their family. They dont have any money for anything, why? they send it home and they wonder where all the money is going. Stand and watch them using Western Union or Fed Ex money transfer. I see this much to often.
Irish people dont get the same treatment. The immigrant cries racism if they are refused and soon get sorted.
I SEE IT EVERY DAY.

Maybe this is clouding my view of the Burka.

Anyway no more replies from me.

Are you sure you're not racist?

MikeC101

LeoB wrote: »

Wear it in private.

All you achieve here is force a woman who wishes to wear it to never go out in public.

djpbarry

LeoB wrote: »

Hop of a plane, Get a house, rent paid, medical card, vouchers for lots of goodies, free education...

You forgot about the free cars. Or has the supply of free cars dried up due to the current economic climate?

Immigrants are not entitled to anything that Irish citizens are not entitled to. Non-EU immigrants are entitled to significantly less.

Red_Marauder

LeoB wrote: »

Hop of a plane, Get a house, rent paid, medical card, vouchers for lots of goodies, free education....... Dont understand boss.

Irish dole-lifers back from Ayia Napa?

Laminations

1. They take it off
2. Yes, why shouldn't they be allowed drive with a burqa? Your car is a personal space- unless of course you're a taxi driver etc. in which case the people who argue against legislation restricting it would argue that you as a passenger have a choice to ignore them or choose a different cab.
3. Some do, some dont. What does this matter. Some women need permission to do lots of things, its not a specific burqa issue,
4. Cops AFAIK have the right to check identity.

I cant see any deep and difficult questions here sorry

allisbleak

Laminations wrote: »

I cant see any deep and difficult questions here sorry

I was just curious.

Laminations wrote: »

1. They take it off

If they can take it off then why wear it in the 1st place?

Laminations wrote: »

2. Yes, why shouldn't they be allowed drive with a burqa? Your car is a personal space- unless of course you're a taxi driver etc. in which case the people who argue against legislation restricting it would argue that you as a passenger have a choice to ignore them or choose a different cab.

Because it cannot be safe to drive while wearing a burqa, you wouldn't have proper vision

Laminations wrote: »

3. Some do, some dont. What does this matter. Some women need permission to do lots of things, its not a specific burqa issue,

What women need permission?

Laminations wrote: »

4. Cops AFAIK have the right to check identity.

What if it is 2 male cops that stop the woman?

How do you feel about saudi not letting women drive?

Laminations

allisbleak wrote: »

I was just curious.



If they can take it off then why wear it in the 1st place?


Because it cannot be safe to drive while wearing a burqa, you wouldn't have proper vision


What women need permission?


What if it is 2 male cops that stop the woman?

How do you feel about saudi not letting women drive?

You take your jacket belt and shoes off going through security in the airport, why dont you keep them off?

The burqa doesn't restrict vision. Dangerous driving laws apply to everyone.

Some women wear the burqa off their own bat. There are plenty of women in bad relationships that require husbands permission on many things from spending money to leaving the house.

I the gardai need to ascertain your identity i think you need to comply by law. I may be wrong here though

Laminations

DF can i ask what your personal view of the niqab is? I know you respect the right of people the decide what they wear but on a personal note, do you agree with the burqa? And am i right in thinking you believe business and property owners have the right to introduce restrictions on their property? Because now i'm thinking the only place we differ is on the level of government interference in these matters.