The Burka. Should wearing it be banned?

Permabear

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ChocolateSauce

donegalfella wrote: »

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I'm not sure how.

What happens if Sharon, aged 15, emerges from her room in a crotch-length skirt, fishnet stockings, and a low-cut top? Don't her parents have a legitimate right to say no? We're not letting you go out like that?

I would lean towards no. If a person under 18 is old enough to want to dress a certain way, and old enough to understand the ramifications of how they dress, they're old enough to dress themselves. If they don't understand the ramifications, then perhaps the parents should step in, but I think it is likely that some parents wouldn't care if they understood or not.

Conversely, do Jewish Orthodox parents have the right to insist that their daughters wear clothing that is appropriate to Jewish standards of female modesty—full-length skirts (no trousers, jeans, or shorts), high necklines, arms covered to the elbow, and so on?

Again, I'd lean towards no. By the age when children are becoming old enough to want to assert themselves as people, the parents should be guides and leaders, not dictators.

Of course, a determined parent could successfully blackmail a teenager (no allowance and so on- they have every right to remove privileges) to get their way, but I just don't think the law should be on their side for this one. In particular, I'm thinking about forcing girls to wear garments like the Burka.

Sand

In the parent duties vs. childs rights, Id lean towards the point of view, already expressed, that parents are the guardians of their children, not their owners. The children still retain rights that we ought to respect and protect.

I have no problem with a mature woman deciding to wear the burka, as a personal choice. Fire away. No skin off my nose.

I have a real issue with young girls being pressured into wearing a burka that forces them into marginalisation and a state of dependance upon the males in their families. Maybe it sounds Orwellian, but we cant assume that every actor in a free market is rational and can accurately judge their own risk...even agents as sophisticated as banks have overreached themselves.

Neither can we assume every 11 or 12 year old girl is able to face down her families pressure to don a burka. We cant pretend that this is actually a symbol of her right to be different, as opposed to her rights being trampled on by traditions forced upon her by peer pressure.

I wouldnt ban burkas outright. Such a ban would be unworkable. But I would certainly ban them from any state school. For the record I would also remove the church from the education system.

The ban from state schools wouldnt prevent private schools advertising for business on the basis that they allow you to ensure your daughter wears a tarpaulin at all times, but at least such a trangression of rights wouldnt be funded by the taxpayers euros.

Permabear

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GuanYin

johngalway wrote: »

. If people want to live in Ireland it should be because it IS Ireland, not another country.

Can we apply that reasoning to all the Irish people currently feeing your economy and arriving in other countries and not integrating?

It is amusing to see the outcry of Ireland on women's rights so suddenly. Then again I guess you did stop enslaving "fallen women" there all of almost 14 years ago. It is most amusing that the solution to protecting these women's rights is to remove their right to choose..

GuanYin

Mod Note:

I'm taking a very dim view of FGM being brought into this discussion for several reasons.

1. it has nothing to do with the topic.

2. it has nothing to do with Islam.

3. it seems people are using it to "muddy the waters"

I'll be deleting posts referencing FGM unless they are VERY well constructed with a CLEAR point.

sparkling sea

donegalfella wrote: »

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Morally and ethically empowering parents with regard to culture, religion and attire is of course right, however parents of teenager also have a duty to empower their children - we must not forget this. However parents right must to be qualified and they are really, their parenting style must be lawful.

From what you said I have to assume, specifically with regard to modesty and attire, the parents must not be overly liberal as you would find this offensive. Parents have a duty of care and they could be in breach of this duty if they allow their young daughter to experiment with style - I hope not.

All types of religous dress must be judged on their own merit - a burka should not be lawfully in Ireland because we should not allow Ireland to be a country were women are as stated by Mr Sarkozy prisoners behind netting, cut off from all social life, deprived of identity.

The fight for equality of women is well underway in Ireland we should not allow religion, culture or custom to hold us back, we must have learned some lessons from the past

sparkling sea

GuanYin wrote: »

It is amusing to see the outcry of Ireland on women's rights so suddenly. Then again I guess you did stop enslaving "fallen women" there all of almost 14 years ago. It is most amusing that the solution to protecting these women's rights is to remove their right to choose..

The right to choose - Ireland is a country where up until relatively recently children were brainwashed with regard to the Catholic religion. Many people here still do not accept that they never had free choice.

I dont believe that any women would freely choose to wear a burka and women do not naturally cover themselves, they do so when it is dictated by patriarchal religious doctrine Any women how feels the need to hide herself has been brainwashed and was never given a choice.

Removing the right to make a choice that is harmful to women may actually allow them the right to expericence what it is like to have real choice.

evolving_doors

What defines a burka anyhow...If Jean Paul Gautier wore one would he be breaking the law!!! This is all just tosh..If I want to put a turkey on my head ( a la Mr. Bean ) and walk down a street in Paris then what's the problem!! Libertie Equalitie and all that freedom talk..

Maybe they should go the other direction and require all french people to wear Berets and carry baguettes with a string of onions and garlic over the shoulder ..I know this is racial stereotyping but so is the perception that a person who wears a burka is a terrorist..

evolving_doors

Actually whats the story with French Nuns wearing veils?Is that not a form of opression too? to keep away them pesky pereverted men..

sparkling sea

Armelodie wrote: »

What defines a burka anyhow...If Jean Paul Gautier wore one would he be breaking the law!!! This is all just tosh..If I want to put a turkey on my head ( a la Mr. Bean ) and walk down a street in Paris then what's the problem!! Libertie Equalitie and all that freedom talk..

Maybe they should go the other direction and require all french people to wear Berets and carry baguettes with a string of onions and garlic over the shoulder ..I know this is racial stereotyping but so is the perception that a person who wears a burka is a terrorist..

Its fairly easy to define a burka - its as easy as trying to undermine all the issues it raises.

Women, fashion, terrorist - tosh

Ultravid

I think they should be allowed to wear their religious garb, however I think the full face veils are a bit much. I think the face should be visible.

bleedinrapidbud

sparkling sea wrote: »

Wearing a burka should definitely be banned as its original purpose was to hide woman. It is a symbol of the desexualistion of women - why - because as with most religious symbols created by male dominated religions, the burka was used as a mechanism for restricting women - hiding them.

Women have fought hard for their rights, they have progressed further in western society for all sorts of reasons and allowing any traditions that would in anyway suggest that a women is a lesser being either covertly or overtly should be banned - full stop.

Fair enough point i wouldn't have thought of it that way but i will say that i would have a problem talkin to someone who has the face totally covered but you can't put a ban on what people wear-nobody can tell ya what to wear like!!

GuanYin

sparkling sea wrote: »

The right to choose - Ireland is a country where up until relatively recently children were brainwashed with regard to the Catholic religion. Many people here still do not accept that they never had free choice.

Of course they do. They have chosen religion. Some choices are more intrinsic than others and harder to deviate from, but many have turned their back on religion when the chips were down, for various reasons.

Generally the issue is more to do with the self-esteem and willpower of the society.

I dont believe that any women would freely choose to wear a burka and women do not naturally cover themselves, they do so when it is dictated by patriarchal religious doctrine Any women how feels the need to hide herself has been brainwashed and was never given a choice.

You throw that word "brainwashed" around a lot. There are many meanings and uses of the word, for instance, I would view someone who is incapable of considering another point of view brainwashed.

You don't believe that a woman would choose to wear a burka, it doesn't make it the case. Many women choose to. They believe it is the proper thing to do.

So what you are arguing here is that your beliefs are more important than someone elses.

Removing the right to make a choice that is harmful to women may actually allow them the right to expericence what it is like to have real choice.

So what you're saying is, they should be deprived of their right to choose what they want to do, so that they can have the right to choose what you think they should want to do.

Removing someone's rights for their own benefit. Yeah, cos historically that has always turned out for the best, right?

To me, it appears that you are every bit equal to those you are denouncing. You seem to want to impose your views, beliefs and morals on other people, regardless of what they want, what they feel comfortable with or their beliefs. Sounds like the actions of one of those "brainwashing" religion-type organizations to me.

djpbarry

Sand wrote: »

Neither can we assume every 11 or 12 year old girl is able to face down her families pressure to don a burka. We cant pretend that this is actually a symbol of her right to be different, as opposed to her rights being trampled on by traditions forced upon her by peer pressure.

Nor can we pretend to know what is going on inside the head of every burqa-wearer, or their family background.

sparkling sea wrote: »

I dont believe that any women would freely choose to wear a burka...

Out of curiosity, do you think that women would freely choose to wear the hijab?

Permabear

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P. Breathnach

donegalfella wrote: »

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Does she have much support in that?

Many men invest a great deal of effort in trying to liberate women from their bras.

GuanYin

donegalfella wrote: »

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I call the bra a rather wonderful relief from back and neck muscle pain and stress marks (admittedly not MUCH stress, but enough so I notice), especially during sports.

djpbarry

donegalfella wrote: »

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I remember her coming up with a similar label for high-heels on a TV show (possibly The Panel) and she was quite rightly derided by the male members of the panel. If a man exists who forces, or even encourages, his wife/girlfriend to wear heels so he can listen to complaints such as “these shoes have me feet in bits!” and “how do you expect me to walk in these?”, then he is a thoroughly unique individual among his sex.

Permabear

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Lockstep

Meh, freedom of religion doesn't involve the state telling us what we should do; it involves the state backing us when we act freely.

GuanYin

You can't judge Muslims, Islam, Islamic religion or custom by the actions of a few fundamentalist psychopaths any more than you can judge Christians, Christianity and Christian religion and customs by the actions of Christian cults.

Laminations

GuanYin wrote: »

You can't judge Muslims, Islam, Islamic religion or custom by the actions of a few fundamentalist psychopaths any more than you can judge Christians, Christianity and Christian religion and customs by the actions of Christian cults.

Very true. I hope you applied that sensible thinking to bigoted remarks like

allisbleak wrote: »

Thats rich, considering the catholic church is the biggest paedo ring on the planet. There were the largest exporter of stolen children to the highest bidder.

He may as well have said Islam is a terrorist ring or Judaism is a Money laundering racket! All utter nonsense. When did this thread turn into judging religions as a whole, judging belief systems by a subset of believers, that are wholly unrepresentative? Where does the stereotyping come into it?

Permabear

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GuanYin

donegalfella wrote: »

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As someone who has read the Qur’an and indeed taken a college credit course on studying it (in comparative religions), I can tell you that your statement is grossly untrue, hyperbolic, offensive and probably very much against the rules of this forum.

Berwick

Ultravid wrote: »

I think they should be allowed to wear their religious garb, however I think the full face veils are a bit much. I think the face should be visible.

But this garb is not religious.

It is even anti-islamic.

So Cairo has ruled.

Cairo locuta - causa finita.

Permabear

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sparkling sea

donegalfella wrote: »

And yet you have no trouble believing that millions of people in the West freely base their own everyday behavior on a set of ancient texts that they believe to be the inerrant Word of God./QUOTE]

You make assumptions without facts to back them up - you do not know what I do and do not have trouble believing, you just cherry pick and say what ever suits you. It makes it very difficult to discuss the topic with you.

The ideals of feminist groups cover the whole spectrum and can to poles apart, so again it appears that you are not very well informed.

Germaine Greer had very specific views, they are her own personally views and I am really glad she can freely express them, however, the fact that she is free to express her opinions it does not she represents the views of all women, any more then one free mans view represents the views of all men

Permabear

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sparkling sea

donegalfella wrote: »

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As I said its very difficult to discuss any topic with someone who cherry picks.