The Burka. Should wearing it be banned?

Permabear

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djpbarry

donegalfella wrote: »

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I'm no theologian, but I'm guessing a similar list of quotes could be extracted from the Bible or the Talmud?

sparkling sea

djpbarry wrote: »

Out of curiosity, do you think that women would freely choose to wear the hijab?

Its possible that some women would - but either way some form of religion usually plays a part in shaping most peoples choices whether they like it or not.

Permabear

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irishconvert

Donegalfella, please do not quote out of context from the Qur'an without having understanding of it. Quoting out of context is unfair and can make certain verses seem to mean something which they do not. I have read many of your recent posts you seem to be quite a reasonable person so I am very surprised you would resort to this. I have reported your post.

irishconvert

donegalfella wrote: »

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Oh dear, your ignorance is frightening. How many Muslims do you actually know personally?

Sykes

My own view is that it should be banned in public buildings and on transport. That includes teachers and Doctors. I would not let my child be taught by someone that covers their face nor would I see a Doctor who covers their face.

It's interesting because in Israel recently a poll by a paper showed only 25% of Israelis would see it banned. It's a funny situation, you'd have thought they'd be the first to want it banned, but Muslims in Israel usually wear the headscarf.

There is definitely a political 'message' in Europe being sent out by those who wish to cover their whole face. It's become more prevalent.

Scofflaw

Don't make this a religious argument - if it continues being one, I will move it to the Islam forum.

moderately,
Scofflaw

djpbarry

sparkling sea wrote: »

Its possible that some women would - but either way some form of religion usually plays a part in shaping most peoples choices whether they like it or not.

Obviously the motivation is at least partly religious, but the point is that a lot of women choose to wear the hijab. Is it stretching it to suggest that maybe there is a woman out there who freely chooses to wear the burqa?

Macha

djpbarry wrote: »

Obviously the motivation is at least partly religious, but the point is that a lot of women choose to wear the hijab. Is it stretching it to suggest that maybe there is a woman out there who freely chooses to wear the burqa?

Would it be a coincidence that a woman who freely chooses to wear the burqa happens to have been brought up in a society that encourages the segregation of sexes and the covering up of women?

MaceFace

djpbarry wrote: »

Obviously the motivation is at least partly religious, but the point is that a lot of women choose to wear the hijab. Is it stretching it to suggest that maybe there is a woman out there who freely chooses to wear the burqa?

And that woman can choose to live in a different country.

Simple rule: Wherever a woman can wear a burqa, a man should be allowed to wear a balaclava.

sparkling sea

djpbarry wrote: »

Obviously the motivation is at least partly religious, but the point is that a lot of women choose to wear the hijab. Is it stretching it to suggest that maybe there is a woman out there who freely chooses to wear the burqa?

No I suppose it wouldn't be stretching it to suggest there is a woman who would freely choose this - but again it comes back to balancing rights. Its the wishes of the majority with due regard of the rights of the minority in a democratic society. There will always be exceptions - there exceptionally.

I would also point out that many men freely wear many different types of head wear for all sorts of reasons ranging from interest in fashion to cultural and religious. Everything from baseball caps to turbans are to some degree freely worn yet none of these men (or none that I know of) choose to cover their face freely.

Is it stretching it to suggest that the majority of cases women who wear a burka are not really free to make a choice and women who are truely free to make this choice often choose to abandone this tradition and opt for the less oppressive hijab

djpbarry

taconnol wrote: »

Would it be a coincidence that a woman who freely chooses to wear the burqa happens to have been brought up in a society that encourages the segregation of sexes and the covering up of women?

Probably not. I don’t want to come across as though I’m in favour of segregation, or that I wish to see more women in burqas. What man would?!?

However...

sparkling sea wrote: »

Is it stretching it to suggest that the majority of cases women who wear a burka are not really free to make a choice and women who are truely free to make this choice often choose to abandone this tradition and opt for the less oppressive hijab

Why do you consider the hijab ‘less oppressive’? Is the hijab essentially not a symbol of the same oppression you associate with the burqa?

The reason I brought up the hijab is because, while watching a documentary on schools in Damascus the other night (Monday, I think) I was reminded of what a Syrian colleague told me on this subject. She said that the wearing of the hijab was virtually unheard of in Damascus 20-30 years ago, but now, (as was evident in this documentary) many young girls are choosing to wear it, even though their mothers do not. I’ve noticed a similar phenomenon in my workplace, where there are a substantial number of young women of Arab extraction. In one particular case, I’ve noticed that an Irish-born Arab girl wears the hijab, while her Lebanese-born sister does not and neither does their mother. Now, it appears to me that this girl is being oppressed by nobody other than herself. You can argue that she is being ‘oppressed’ by her religion, which she undoubtedly inherited from her family, but that oppression is entirely self-imposed, as she is choosing to interpret her religion in a different manner to her family. While I (and her mother, no doubt) are disappointed that she feels the need to do this, it’s her choice.

Can I ask, would you support the banning of the hijab?

anymore

MaceFace wrote: »

And that woman can choose to live in a different country.

Simple rule: Wherever a woman can wear a burqa, a man should be allowed to wear a balaclava.

Very interseting point in relation to the wearing of balaclavas - though I suppose we mainly associate the wearing of balaclavas with criminality as opposed to oppression.

Donegalfella, please do not quote out of context from the Qur'an without having understanding of it. Quoting out of context is unfair and can make certain verses seem to mean something which they do not. I have read many of your recent posts you seem to be quite a reasonable person so I am very surprised you would resort to this. I have reported your post.

Surely the appropriate response would to be to place the quote in the context which you believe it should be in and not to attempt censorship. Isnt this the kind of infringement of freedoms that the supporters of the wearing of the burqa are com-plaining about ?

anymore

djpbarry wrote: »

Probably not. I don’t want to come across as though I’m in favour of segregation, or that I wish to see more women in burqas. What man would?!?

However...
Why do you consider the hijab ‘less oppressive’? Is the hijab essentially not a symbol of the same oppression you associate with the burqa?

.Can I ask, would you support the banning of the hijab?

I cant see the equivalence between the hjab and burqa. It is like chalk and cheese ! The purpose of the burqa is to hide the face, the hjab, if anything actually emphasises and highlights the face !
Try walking along a narrow rough pathway wearing a hjab and then try the same with a burqa -decide then if you think they are similiar garments.

sparkling sea

djpbarry wrote: »

Probably not. I don’t want to come across as though I’m in favour of segregation, or that I wish to see more women in burqas. What man would?!?

The men who originally came up with the idea, the men who try to enforce the wearing of the burka, etc.

However...
Why do you consider the hijab ‘less oppressive’? Is the hijab essentially not a symbol of the same oppression you associate with the burqa?

There are certain presumptions that I would have thought were a given - but if I could suggest that you put on a hat for say 5 minutes, walk around, do what you normally do (inside of course). Try the same thing with an old sheet, leave a gap for your eyes of course, it will become obivious as to why just even in a general sense the burka is more oppressive.
Now add to that the fact that no one can see your expressions, your closed off from the rest of society and they are closed off from you.

Can I ask, would you support the banning of the hijab?

No I wouldn't - I am not in favour of banning anything per se, even though I think that a hijab is a symbol of female submission to a patriarchal religion.

Can I ask you to address why men who are free to choose do not choose to wear a veil and why conclusions are not drawn from this

djpbarry

anymore wrote: »

Try walking along a narrow rough pathway wearing a hjab and then try the same with a burqa -decide then if you think they are similiar garments.

At what point did I suggest they were similar garments?

My point is that if one is to campaign for the banning of the burqa on the grounds of oppression, then surely the hijab is next in line?

sparkling sea

anymore wrote: »

I cant see the equivalence between the hjab and burqa. It is like chalk and cheese ! The purpose of the burqa is to hide the face, the hjab, if anything actually emphasises and highlights the face !

Exactly

sparkling sea

djpbarry wrote: »

At what point did I suggest they were similar garments?

My point is that if one is to campaign for the banning of the burqa on the grounds of oppression, then surely the hijab is next in line?

Why

ChocolateSauce

irishconvert wrote: »

Donegalfella, please do not quote out of context from the Qur'an without having understanding of it. Quoting out of context is unfair and can make certain verses seem to mean something which they do not. I have read many of your recent posts you seem to be quite a reasonable person so I am very surprised you would resort to this. I have reported your post.

Please, do tell us all how putting those quotes "in context" could possibly make them any less insulting and violent?

anymore

djpbarry wrote: »

At what point did I suggest they were similar garments?

My point is that if one is to campaign for the banning of the burqa on the grounds of oppression, then surely the hijab is next in line?

On those grounds, we may as well also place rosasry beads and non catholic prayer beads on the ban list.
Lets keep a sense of proportion here. The burqa is a garment like none other in its intent and effects on the wearer and on the wider society.

irishconvert

Scofflaw wrote: »

Don't make this a religious argument - if it continues being one, I will move it to the Islam forum.

moderately,
Scofflaw

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Please, do tell us all how putting those quotes "in context" could possibly make them any less insulting and violent?

Well I can't now because of what Scofflaw said. In any case it would take forever to go through each one. If you are genuinely interested PM me one of the quotes and I will try to put it into context for you. But please only do this if you have not already made you mind up as this would just be a waste of time for both of us.

djpbarry

sparkling sea wrote: »

djpbarry wrote: »

I don’t want to come across as though I’m in favour of segregation, or that I wish to see more women in burqas. What man would?!?

The men who originally came up with the idea, the men who try to enforce the wearing of the burka, etc.

Oh goodness, it wasn't a serious question.

sparkling sea wrote: »

There are certain presumptions that I would have thought were a given - but if I could suggest that you put on a hat for say 5 minutes, walk around, do what you normally do (inside of course). Try the same thing with an old sheet, leave a gap for your eyes of course, it will become obivious as to why just even in a general sense the burka is more oppressive.

You mean more impractical?

sparkling sea wrote: »

djpbarry wrote: »

Can I ask, would you support the banning of the hijab?

No I wouldn't - I am not in favour of banning anything per se, even though I think that a hijab is a symbol of female submission to a patriarchal religion.

But you are in favour of banning the burqa?

sparkling sea wrote: »

Can I ask you to address why men who are free to choose do not choose to wear a veil and why conclusions are not drawn from this

I would conclude that they don't want to wear a veil. But then, men generally don't want to wear skirts, blouses, dresses, tights, etc. either.

sparkling sea

djpbarry wrote: »

Oh goodness, it wasn't a serious question.
You mean more impractical?
But you are in favour of banning the burqa?
I would conclude that they don't want to wear a veil. But then, men generally don't want to wear skirts, blouses, dresses, tights, etc. either.

No I mean oppressive - keep it on for another 5 minutes.

You'd conclude they don't want to wear a veil - it the context of this discussion - maybe you could give it a little more thought :rolleyes:

Permabear

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irishconvert

djpbarry wrote: »

Why do you consider the hijab ‘less oppressive’? Is the hijab essentially not a symbol of the same oppression you associate with the burqa?

Do you think the hijab is opressive? Do you think this woman is opressed:?

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30468203&op=1&o=global&view=global&subj=238138128203&id=1431158874

djpbarry

sparkling sea wrote: »

You'd conclude they don't want to wear a veil - it the context of this discussion - maybe you could give it a little more thought :rolleyes:

Oh I see – the obvious conclusion is that burqa-wearing women don’t actually want to dress the way they do, but are being forced to by their chauvinistic fathers and husbands. Right? I've no doubt that this is often the case, but you'll have a job convincing me that this is always the case, because in my experience, women are often far more religious than their husbands. This is actually supported by the last census to some extent - married men were about 60% more likely than married women to state that they did not subscribe to any religion.

I’m going to bow out of the discussion at this point, but I’ll leave you with a pretty well-known example of women choosing, en masse, to dress in a certain manner for the sake of religious worship; The Hajj. Have a look at this photo, taken at a wedding I recently attended in Lahore; the second woman from the left is my mother-in-law. She’s not exactly what I would call ‘oppressed’ (she’s a headmistress at a local school), yet she’s done The Hajj. Twice. I believe she’s planning a third pilgrimage. Now, as I’m sure you’re aware, embarking on this pilgrimage requires that she dresses in a far more ‘conservative’ manner than that which she is normally accustomed. But her husband refuses to accompany her on these trips, because he has absolutely no interest in religion of any kind. Her father is not particularly religious either - she chooses to do this of her own free will, in the name of religious worship, and she is certainly not alone.

sparkling sea

djpbarry wrote: »

Oh I see – the obvious conclusion is that burqa-wearing women don’t actually want to dress the way they do, but are being forced to by their chauvinistic fathers and husbands. Right? I've no doubt that this is often the case, but you'll have a job convincing me that this is always the case, because in my experience, women are often far more religious than their husbands. This is actually supported by the last census to some extent - married men were about 60% more likely than married women to state that they did not subscribe to any religion.

I’m going to bow out of the discussion at this point, but I’ll leave you with a pretty well-known example of women choosing, en masse, to dress in a certain manner for the sake of religious worship; The Hajj. Have a look at this photo, taken at a wedding I recently attended in Lahore; the second woman from the left is my mother-in-law. She’s not exactly what I would call ‘oppressed’ (she’s a headmistress at a local school), yet she’s done The Hajj. Twice. I believe she’s planning a third pilgrimage. Now, as I’m sure you’re aware, embarking on this pilgrimage requires that she dresses in a far more ‘conservative’ manner than that which she is normally accustomed. But her husband refuses to accompany her on these trips, because he has absolutely no interest in religion of any kind. Her father is not particularly religious either - she chooses to do this of her own free will, in the name of religious worship, and she is certainly not alone.

Conditioning is everything and both men and women can be conditioned, further because they have traditionally been more oppressed then men, its hardly surprising that it is taking them longer to throw of the sackles of such oppression.

You will always get exceptions, this applies to everything in life. We will have to agree to disagree that the harm to women and by extention to society by allowing for the wearing of a burka is on par with the wearing of a hijab.

sparkling sea

donegalfella wrote: »

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We can and do legislate against what are freedoms which cause harm to others.

Permabear

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