The Burka. Should wearing it be banned?

sparkling sea

GuanYin wrote: »

Isn't equality the freedom to choose whatever path you want? Your entire argument is centered around depriving other cultures of their equality of religious expression.(

As I have already suggested banning the burqa would be a violation of individual liberties only in a world where Muslim women are truly free from other Muslims, if such a world existed, people could freely choose to wear what they want without drastically impinging on the struggle of others.

With regard to attacking Islam itself - virtually all religions are patricarchial and sexist. Freedom to choose a religion, will only come when people are actually free.

I believe that organised religion always has been and remains the greatest enemy of women's rights. However religious views which preach women’s’ submission and make women’s’ suppression a cornerstone of their theology are freely and legally expressed. Despite a constitutional guarantee that my rights if under threat will be vindicated by the state and my belief (and I am not alone here) that organised religion is discriminatory and causes great harm to women, I do not believe that limiting religious expression would be beneficial as religious restriction can bring about fundamentalism - although I am in favour of banning the burqa. Freedom of expression allows a person to express their opinions freely, while at the same time refraining from offending other members of society making it a confusing concept, needing rules and restrictions - its very very difficult not to overstep the mark, but that doesn't mean restrictions are never needed - the overall good must be weighed

I don't think that my values are more important the another womans values, it not a question of values however its a question of a hierarchy of rights. The fundamental unqualified right for equality for all supercedes the right to freedom of expression because without gender equality half the population are not free to uninhibited expression. Not all rights are equal with good reason. A burka is the same as any tool of repression, a slap, a stick, a kick, psychological bullying do I think these are acceptable - no. Do I think people should have the freedom to allow themselves to be treated in this way, to a certain extent, yes, but when serious harm is caused then I feel freedoms should be overruled by rights. To me a burka is a covert weapon of serious harm

sparkling sea

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

For women who are forced to wear it, they should report their men to the police (whom I believe should be arrested for slavery); for women who are not forced to wear it, they should be allowed to.

How exactly one goes about proving x y and z is another matter entirely...

In reality reporting infringement of rights to the police is only realistic (a) in a state were this is possible and (b) were repression isn't so strong (from family, friends, tradition, etc) that you feel able to do this and you liberty isn't restrained. By far and away the majority of women who wear a burka would not be free either mentally , psychologically or/and physically to do so. Many women and men suffer repression and violence without the use of a burka, but a burka is another barrier to freedom.

wes

anymore wrote: »

I am quite sure you do see the relevance :)

Looking at the thread title and I still don't see the relevance.

anymore wrote: »

To borrow Al Gores words or at least rehash them, it is an inconvenient truth that supporting freedom of expression as regards wearing of the burqa should logically require support the freedom of expression to produce drawings/ cartoons or even to produce satirical pices on religions or their founders.

Yes, and I have yet to see any indication that anyone here is for people being able to wear the Burqa and against people drawing cartoons. So I fail to see the point you trying to make really, seeing as no one has expressed the position you are talking about.

anymore wrote: »

You are right to say my point re irish papers and the danish cartoons is moot - I do want it debated !

It irrelevant to the the current thread. You can start a new one, or find one of the old ones.

tfitzgerald

Lets keep this simple a woman calls a teddy bear mohammed and she gets jail god bless the muslims you got to love em OF course the burka should be banned when in rome and all that ,they should all be made wear cruicifixs

wes

tfitzgerald wrote: »

Lets keep this simple a woman calls a teddy bear mohammed and she gets jail god bless the muslims you got to love em OF course the burka should be banned when in rome and all that ,they should all be made wear cruicifixs

So, people do bad thing in other countries, and therefore we should ban the burqa.

I like this game, I think I will have a go.

Lets see, people do bad things in other countries, so we should ban Bicycles! Wow, that makes a lot of sense!

anymore

wes wrote: »

Looking at the thread title and I still don't see the relevance.



Yes, and I have yet to see any indication that anyone here is for people being able to wear the Burqa and against people drawing cartoons. So I fail to see the point you trying to make really, seeing as no one has expressed the position you are talking about.



It irrelevant to the the current thread. You can start a new one, or find one of the old ones.

This thread isnt about 'liberal democracies' either, yet the apparent desire to have Ireland regarded as a 'liberal democracy' seems to be one of the main arguements being cited as to why burkas should be allowed. And one of the main manifestations of liberal democracy is freedom of expression.
.The section of Islam that forces this dreadful cultural custom on women despises the ' Liberal western tradition' and seems to see it as one of the sources of all evils yeat we are supposed to allow it to import its medieval cultural practices into liberal western europe lest our reputation somehow be sullied !

mark_jmc

I was flying home through JFK last week, my friends wife was instructed (rudely) to remove her scarf (which was around her neck) for security purposes. There was a lady with a burka directly behind her and not a word was spoken about removing it. I am all for respecting religious beliefs where it is appropriate but in this instance it felt like one rule for one and another for others. I will not accept this when it comes to security in airports whether it is hats/scarves burkas etc

wes

anymore wrote: »

This thread isnt about 'liberal democracies' either, yet the apparent desire to have Ireland regarded as a 'liberal democracy' seems to be one of the main arguements being cited as to why burkas should be allowed. And one of the main manifestations of liberal democracy is freedom of expression.

It was being discussed in regards to topic of the thread. What you wished to discuss was a straw man.

anymore wrote: »

The section of Islam that forces this dreadful cultural custom on women despises the ' Liberal western tradition' and seems to see it as one of the sources of all evils yeat we are supposed to allow it to import its medieval cultural practices into liberal western europe lest our reputation somehow be sullied !

We allow all sorts of crazy crap, and Burqa clad Women don't hurt anyone else. You not liking something is not really sufficent ground for banning something.

anymore

wes wrote: »

Looking at the thread title and I still don't see the relevance.



Yes, and I have yet to see any indication that anyone here is for people being able to wear the Burqa and against people drawing cartoons. So I fail to see the point you trying to make really, seeing as no one has expressed the position you are talking about.



It irrelevant to the the current thread. You can start a new one, or find one of the old ones.

Wes you yourself posted a thread given by the Malaysian Premier which suggests that a more reconciliatory attitude between West and Islam is needed and which stated :
" One of our most urgent tasks is to multiply the bridge builders. We must develop through the family, education, and the media tens of thousands of men and women who can be critical of the weaknesses and wrongdoings of one’s civilization and, at the same time, be empathetic toward “the other” civilization. When the bridge builders reach a critical mass, their collective power would become so overwhelming that it would destroy the walls erected by those who are hell–bent on keeping Islam and the West apart.
I would suggest that the burqa is a device which inhibits communication between members of the different peoples and genders and reinforces the image of a cultural gap between extreme islam and the West. It is ceratinly foreign to our culture and it is even a diffisive garment within Islam itself.

anymore

wes wrote: »

It was being discussed in regards to topic of the thread. What you wished to discuss was a straw man.

Your interpretaion of freedom seems to be to decide what can be dicussed in reagrd to the topic of the thread and for that purpose, rather perversely, freedom of expression cant be discussed ?

.

sirromo

I support the right of people to wear whatever they want but I also support the right of employers to discriminate against employees or job applicants who don't want to adhere to the appropriate dress-code for the job.

wes

anymore wrote: »

Wes you yourself posted a thread given by the Malaysian Premier which suggests that a more reconciliatory attitude between West and Islam is needed and which stated :
" One of our most urgent tasks is to multiply the bridge builders. We must develop through the family, education, and the media tens of thousands of men and women who can be critical of the weaknesses and wrongdoings of one’s civilization and, at the same time, be empathetic toward “the other” civilization. When the bridge builders reach a critical mass, their collective power would become so overwhelming that it would destroy the walls erected by those who are hell–bent on keeping Islam and the West apart.

I fail to see how banning the Burqa will achieve this, tbh. In fact, I say banning it out right would be have the exact opposite effect, esepecially since so few Women actually wear it in the West, and security concerns can easily be addressed by allowing shops etc to ask people to remove it before entering ala motocycle helmets.

Ultimately, there is no need for a ban, and personally the call for the ban have very little to do with reconcilliation, and has more to do with politicians using Burqa clad Women as a convenient scape goat.

anymore wrote: »

I would suggest that the burqa is a device which inhibits communication between members of the different peoples and genders and reinforces the image of a cultural gap between extreme islam and the West. It is ceratinly foreign to our culture and it is even a diffisive garment within Islam itself.

Oh, I disagree with the communication argument. I can communicate just fine, in multiple different way e.g. Face to face, via a message board (like now), via text message, email, instant message, VOIP, and web cams chats, several of those methods I don't even get to see someones face for example.

Secondly, if force Women to not wear a Burqa, it doesn't follow that this will increase communication. Maybe, they will just stay at home, maybe they just won't talk to anyone.

I have yet to see any evidence to suggest, that this tiny minority of Women actually even effect communication in the first place, considering how small there numbers are in the West, and I fail to see how it would improve. In Ireland the number would be extremly small, so again I fail to see how communication can possibly be effected either positively or negatively.

wes

anymore wrote: »

Your interpretaion of freedom seems to be to decide what can be dicussed in reagrd to the topic of the thread and for that purpose, rather perversely, freedom of expression cant be discussed ?

.

I haven't stopped you from saying anything, but I can say it is irrelevant to the topic at hand, which it was. You created a straw man argument, and I said very simple no one had taken up the position you were talking about, and as such I failed to see the relevance.

**EDIT**
The thread is about the Burqa, and not about the Muhammad cartoons. I fail to see how stating that, impedes anyones freedom. I can't possibly stop you from discussing it, and sure as hell didn't do anything to stop you from doing so either. All, I said was that I think it irrelevant to the discussion. If you think it is relevant, than more power to you, but I don't see how stating my opinion on what you constitutes anything other than me stating my opinion on what you said.

anymore

wes wrote: »

I fail to see how banning the Burqa will achieve this, tbh. In fact, I say banning it out right would be have the exact opposite effect, esepecially since so few Women actually wear it in the West, and security concerns can easily be addressed by allowing shops etc to ask people to remove it before entering ala motocycle helmets.

Ultimately, there is no need for a ban, and personally the call for the ban have very little to do with reconcilliation, and has more to do with politicians using Burqa clad Women as a convenient scape goat.



Oh, I disagree with the communication argument. I can communicate just fine, in multiple different way e.g. Face to face, via a message board (like now), via text message, email, instant message, VOIP, and web cams chats, several of those methods I don't even get to see someones face for example.

Secondly, if force Women to not wear a Burqa, it doesn't follow that this will increase communication. Maybe, they will just stay at home, maybe they just won't talk to anyone.

I have yet to see any evidence to suggest, that this tiny minority of Women actually even effect communication in the first place, considering how small there numbers are in the West, and I fail to see how it would improve. In Ireland the number would be extremly small, so again I fail to see how communication can possibly be effected either positively or negatively.

Well most of these points have beeN adequately addressed way back in the debate.

Secondly, if force Women to not wear a Burqa, it doesn't follow that this will increase communication. Maybe, they will just stay at home, maybe they just won't talk to anyone

Most of us wont notice as we are not really encouraged to enter into conservations with burqa clad women are we ?

Zombrex

anymore wrote: »

This thread isnt about 'liberal democracies' either, yet the apparent desire to have Ireland regarded as a 'liberal democracy' seems to be one of the main arguements being cited as to why burkas should be allowed. And one of the main manifestations of liberal democracy is freedom of expression.
.The section of Islam that forces this dreadful cultural custom on women despises the ' Liberal western tradition' and seems to see it as one of the sources of all evils yeat we are supposed to allow it to import its medieval cultural practices into liberal western europe lest our reputation somehow be sullied !

Yes obviously the best way to combat members of the Islamic community disrespecting women by forcing them to wear a Burka is to force Islamic women not to wear the Burka. :pac:

Islamic women should be allowed wear what ever they like, so long as it doesn't interfere with their job or security.

If there is an issue with women being oppressed by some in the Muslim community forcing them to wear a particular outfit that should be combated, and it hardly needs to be said that we should be able to find a way of doing that that doesn't involve us dictating in turn to Islamic women what they should wear.

If we do that how are we any better than the people we complain about?

We can't claim to be concerned about Islamic women being disrespected while treating them in the same way

wes

anymore wrote: »

Well most of these points have beeN adequately addressed way back in the debate.

Sure, maybe to you.

anymore wrote: »

Most of us wont notice as we are not really encouraged to enter into conservations with burqa clad women are we ?

Well, I personally rarely ever run in Burqa clad Women ever. So I don't see how it really effect me in anyway.

I also rarely talk to random people I don't know in the streets either, but that has nothing to do with Burqa's either, go figure.

Elenxor

wish to see the burka banned, also wish the emblems of all religion banned in public? I speak of the Christian cross, The Jewish Star of David, and many other symbols...I have no issue with these or indeed of Islamic symbols, I just wonder why the Burka is singled out, I've only seen posts from women who want to wear the burka, why sould'nt they be allowed to do so, and why are they being singled out...just curious.

tfitzgerald

wes wrote: »

So, people do bad thing in other countries, and therefore we should ban the burqa.

I like this game, I think I will have a go.

Lets see, people do bad things in other countries, so we should ban Bicycles! Wow, that makes a lot of sense!

dont be stupid we would only ban bicyles if they were muslim bikes

Mr. SS

Pat Condell explains the burka:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlkxlzTZc48

sparkling sea

wes wrote: »

Well, I personally rarely ever run in Burqa clad Women ever. So I don't see how it really effect me in anyway.

I also rarely talk to random people I don't know in the streets either, but that has nothing to do with Burqa's either, go figure.

No very sociable are you - it explains alot

sparkling sea

Wicknight wrote: »

We can't claim to be concerned about Islamic women being disrespected while treating them in the same way

Yes but the acceptance of the wearing of a burka has much wider implications for all women and society as a whole.

Its difficult

ChocolateSauce

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Thanks, the subject of Islam and western liberty is probably the one I'm most passionate about.

I think we need to go even further -- to expose divinity as irrational supernaturalism, and religion as a perverse mechanism for social control.

You're not the only one, but I figured I'd keep it on topic and omit the greater "Secular-religion struggle". Most prior threads about Islam in the politics forum I've ever posted in were eventually locked for straying off topic!

anymore wrote:

one of our national papers would have a problem in publishing a cartoon/caricature of the Pope, despite this being a mainly catholic country and most of us tended to be amused by the Ian Paisley's jokes about the Popes red socks. How many of these papers would print a cartoon about the Prophet Mohammed and if they did what would the reaction be from those of the islamic faith ? Would they respect peoples right freedom of expression ? Or would we see the same reaction as followed after the Danish cartoons ?
And the people who are so anxious to protect freedom of expression as regards the burqa on this thread, would you be as anxious to protect the freedom of expression to produce cartoons of the Pope, Mohammed etc ?

They're afraid to publish cartoons offensive to Muslims because they don't want to be murdered.

laminations wrote:

Are the drug legislation or drink laws oppresive?

Different issue here. For starters, those laws aren't discriminatory. Second, there is empirical evidence that drink and drugs cause harm, and therefore there is a legitimate space to argue for their control, to a greater or lesser degree.

n reality reporting infringement of rights to the police is only realistic (a) in a state were this is possible and (b) were repression isn't so strong (from family, friends, tradition, etc) that you feel able to do this and you liberty isn't restrained. By far and away the majority of women who wear a burka would not be free either mentally , psychologically or/and physically to do so. Many women and men suffer repression and violence without the use of a burka, but a burka is another barrier to freedom.

So a country like ours then? All we can do is leave the door open and invite people in our societies who are being oppressed by men to call for help; we can't send the state into their homes to make sure everything is as the majority wants it to be. That's the stuff they do in Arabia.

wes

sparkling sea wrote: »

No very sociable are you - it explains alot

I don't see many people talking to random people in the street. I am pretty sure its rare.

Sure, you will see people talking away in a pub to the odd randomer, but its unlikely that a Woman who would wear a Burqa would suddendly go to a pub if a Burqa was banned.

The simple fact is that, you can't provide any evidence that banning the Burqa would increase communication, and instead of providing this, you instead accuse me of not being sociable. So how exactly does you ban the Burqa equal more communcation business work exactly. I am sure you have clear and concise explanation, as to how that would work, right? I am personally surprised you haven't supplied it alreeady.

Laminations

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Different issue here. For starters, those laws aren't discriminatory. Second, there is empirical evidence that drink and drugs cause harm, and therefore there is a legitimate space to argue for their control, to a greater or lesser degree.
.

Discriminatory? How? A face covering restriction would apply to all the same as drinking restrictions apply to teatotallers and alcos. You are not allowed moderately drink in most public places, whats the harm in that? Would you allow people self harm in public? After all how is that harming you? I mean you admit that the burqa in your opinion is a terrible symbol of servitude, so is it not a form of self harm even if you want to maintain it doesn't harm society? Face covering dehumanises public spaces, do you disagree? Do you disagree that it negatively affects trust and cooperation? Covering up faces is to me like bordering up houses. It creates an air of trepidation and distrust that is unhealthy for a community.

anymore

Mr. SS wrote: »

Pat Condell explains the burka:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlkxlzTZc48

Thanks for that link ans it says quite a lot that is worth considering. I had looked at an article about the vitamin deficiency that arises from burqa wearing so I might as well post an extract from it now it now :

" The burqas are very controversial among health authorities in Western countries, who are increasingly having to deal with the often very serious medical consequences suffered by the growing number of Islamic women who are now migrating into Western Europe, but who are also still being coerced into wearing the burqa mainly through family pressure and imams at their local mosques. "

His remarks about the silence from feminists about the burqa is interesting also. Germaine Greer seems to be an almost permanent presence on BBC programs - it the course of one feminist discussion last week in which she featured, the most 'radical' feminist question asked of the only token man was ' do you wash the bath after using it ".

Burn your Bra, Burn the Burqa !

That should be the rallying call for feminists of the 21st century ! Maybe if feminists engaged with the subject as vigorously as many men, then there would not be any need for calls for banning the burqa. Free open and rational debate, free of the gobbledygook usually associated with religious, religious/cultural discussions, would probably be better for society.

anymore

One thought has occurred to me several times as this thread has progressed. The fact that women do not, usually grow facial hair sufficiently strongly to produce beards and moustaches seems pretty conclusive proof to me that God ,or the Intelligent Designer or whatever being you subscribe to, does not want women's faces covered up. So the introduction of the burqa for Islamic women seems to me to be a rather perverse attempt to frustrate God's design. So do conservatives Islamists think that God got it wrong ? And if so, how did they arrive at this conclusion ?

sparkling sea

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

So a country like ours then? All we can do is leave the door open and invite people in our societies who are being oppressed by men to call for help; we can't send the state into their homes to make sure everything is as the majority wants it to be. That's the stuff they do in Arabia.

No not in a country like ours then. Men and women can be oppressed in a country like ours because of their family traditons, religious traditions, culture.
Ireland as always is way behind in researching this area and providing verifable, sceinetific studies. The UK has produced a wealth of research in this area and traditions such as honour killings are still alive and well there - family, community and cultural domination still prevails in many areas.
The Gardai are still loath to become involved in domestic violence cases in Ireland.

With regard to banning the burka - I obviously would not agree with trying to impose our laws in other countries. Do I think the burka should be banned in countries that are accepting of it - yes - but not right now - because its symptamatic of a host of other gender inequality and other issues. Countries develop at a different pace.

sparkling sea

wes wrote: »

I don't see many people talking to random people in the street. I am pretty sure its rare.

Sure, you will see people talking away in a pub to the odd randomer, but its unlikely that a Woman who would wear a Burqa would suddendly go to a pub if a Burqa was banned.

The simple fact is that, you can't provide any evidence that banning the Burqa would increase communication, and instead of providing this, you instead accuse me of not being sociable. So how exactly does you ban the Burqa equal more communcation business work exactly. I am sure you have clear and concise explanation, as to how that would work, right? I am personally surprised you haven't supplied it alreeady.

It rare for some people, quite common for others - but I wasn't being serious I am sure your very sociable. Sorry if I upset you.

You want academic evidence, which means I will have to go looking for accurate info to explain why its a barrier and how by removing this barrier, communication increases. Can you not just research it yourself. If the implication is that even if I provided the info it wouldn't be clear and concise anyway, you would be better off looking at the info yourself wouldn't you.

wes

sparkling sea wrote: »

It rare for some people, quite common for others - but I wasn't being serious I am sure your very sociable. Sorry if I upset you.

Fair enough.

sparkling sea wrote: »

You want academic evidence, which means I will have to go looking for accurate info to explain why its a barrier and how by removing this barrier, communication increases. Can you not just research it yourself. If the implication is that even if I provided the info it wouldn't be clear and concise anyway, you would be better off looking at the info yourself wouldn't you.

Well, its really simple. I know for a fact that the number of Women who wear the Burqa are a small minority in the Muslim community in the West. So they are already a minority of a minority. So even if the Burqa is a barrier to communcation, the numbers effect are tiny, and the effect on communication minimal. If there are issues with communication, it has nothing to do with the Burqa, as so few wear the thing in the first place.

My issue is that considering the numbers wearing the Burqa, its banning would have minimal impact on helping communciation, and I don't see it having much impact as it is.

anymore

wes wrote: »

Fair enough.



Well, its really simple. I know for a fact that the number of Women who wear the Burqa are a small minority in the Muslim community in the West. So they are already a minority of a minority. So even if the Burqa is a barrier to communcation, the numbers effect are tiny, and the effect on communication minimal. If there are issues with communication, it has nothing to do with the Burqa, as so few wear the thing in the first place.

My issue is that considering the numbers wearing the Burqa, its banning would have minimal impact on helping communciation, and I don't see it having much impact as it is.

What you are ignoring is that there tends to be a clustering effect, so tyipcally, in an irish city, the immigrant population tends to be concentrated in certain areas - those areas with a hight proportion of rental properties for example. So even a minority of the population clustered in a small number of concentrated areas tends to have a pronounced effect on the whole population living in the area. For example, the Wilton of area of Cork, where i lived for a number of years, is one of those areas where the proportion of immigrants to the indigenous population is much higher than the national average.

I am not the most sociable of people, but even I would occassionally pass a few comments when standing in queues to strangers. I would feel very reluctant to do so with a woman wearing a burqa partly because it appears to be such a 'segragating device' and partly because I would be reluctant to cause hassle for the lady in the event that her husband or male companion would take it as a display of impropriety on the woman's part if she replied.
The burqa causes an automatic ' self -censoring' device to kick in ! :(


Perhaps you care to comment on my remark's about 'God's design'.