The Burka. Should wearing it be banned?

bonkey

Laminations wrote: »

The argument isn't simply about concealment of weapons, its about concealment of identity in PUBLIC places.

Concealment of identity in a public place isn't a crime, nor is it in any way wrong.

anymore wrote:

How do you suggest we balance the right of someone to engage in public discourse or commerce with the right of any other party to that discourse or commerce to be able to identify the person with whom they have to engage with.

Firstly, I'd ask where this "right to be able to identify" is coming from. Its no right that I've ever heard of.

The security issue is not a 'canard' -

A public ban cannot be justified on the basis that there are issues that only apply in restricted, non-public-area situations.

Laminations

bonkey wrote: »

T
Western society has a custom and value of tolerance.

The converse of this is that you are suggesting that other societies (islamic being discussed here) are intolerant??

So you don't think tolerating intolerance is intolerable???

Laminations

bonkey wrote: »

Concealment of identity in a public place isn't a crime, nor is it in any way wrong.



Firstly, I'd ask where this "right to be able to identify" is coming from. Its no right that I've ever heard of.


A public ban cannot be justified on the basis that there are issues that only apply in restricted, non-public-area situations.

Do you believe a societies values are determined by the members of that society?
If so, and the majority of people are against this attire, then its a societal value and is deserved of respect

anymore

bonkey wrote: »

The point I was making is that the "its about security" argument is badly flawed. I take it that despite your use of the word "also" here, you're tacitly accepting that the security argument doesn't hold water.



How? What established cultural value of our western society is being given two fingers? The cultural value which says that as long as laws of decency aren't violated, you can wear what you like, regardless of whether others approve of it or not?

No...wait...thats a cultural value that you are suggesting we abandon, not one we protect.


Western society has a custom and value of tolerance.

Want to walk down the main street in a gorilla costume? People might look at you funny, but you're not breaking any law, so you're allowed to do it.

Want to wear a hoody, baseball cap pulled down, dark shades, and a PLO scarf covering the lower half od your face? Again...not breaking any laws...off with you.

Want to wear a short, short miniskirt and cropped top (regardless of your gender), even though its -5 outside? Again...you're free to do so.

So tell me....seriously....given that there's a well-established cultural value of personal freedom that you want us to abandon...what more important cultural value are you protecting on my behalf, by asking me to support you in riding rough-shod over one I consider to be rather important?

Tell me what are the chances that a young woman would be allowed to walk topless down the main streets of nay of our towns for very long before being apprehended by the law ?

bonkey

Laminations wrote: »

The converse of this is that you are suggesting that other societies (islamic being discussed here) are intolerant??

Are you trying to turn the discussion into an attack on other cultures?

I am commenting on our culture, which apparently you want to protect.

This question has no relevance to that issue.

The question at hand is whether or not our cultural values are better served by allowing people the long-established freedom to choose how they dress even if we don't like/approve of it, or by casting aside this freedom in the name of some other as-yet-unidentified cultural value that is somehow more important.

anymore

bonkey wrote: »

Concealment of identity in a public place isn't a crime, nor is it in any way wrong.



Firstly, I'd ask where this "right to be able to identify" is coming from. Its no right that I've ever heard of.

If you want to allege someone has done you a wrong in a court, you will have to be able to identify that person !

bonkey

anymore wrote: »

Tell me what are the chances that a young woman would be allowed to walk topless down the main streets of nay of our towns for very long before being apprehended by the law ?

You're identifying a cultural value (decency) which is clearly defined in both our society and law (if memory serves), and asking whether or not it would be a problem to allow someone to violate that.

That's not quite the same as the question with the burqa, where people are insisting that its violating some sort of cultural value, but as yet haven't clearly identified any such value.

Sure...we can create a new value, just as we can create a new law....but lets not kid ourselves that we've got some long-standing value that we're upholding if we can't actually identify it.

Laminations

bonkey wrote: »

Are you trying to turn the discussion into an attack on other cultures?

No. As you can see my post was a question to you.

Laminations

bonkey wrote: »

You're identifying a cultural value (decency) which is clearly defined in both our society and law (if memory serves), and asking whether or not it would be a problem to allow someone to violate that..

The burqa violates the value of decency.

Decency is an individual's adherence to social standards of appropriate speech and conduct.
The majority in this society do not think it decent to cover ones face in public.

bonkey

anymore wrote: »

If you want to allege someone has done you a wrong in a court, you will have to be able to identify that person !

Indeed....and yet the wearing of balaclava's isn't a crime....nor the concealment of one's face using a scarf, dark glasses and cap/hood....nor the wearing of halloween masks...nor do we see street-performers being arrested when their faces aren't clearly identifiable....

Indeed, the list of ways in which people can mask or conceal their appearance is very, very long indeed, and yet it is only the burqa which is driving this concern....suggesting that the problem does not lie with the whole lack-of-identification issue at all.

anymore

bonkey wrote: »

Are you trying to turn the discussion into an attack on other cultures?

I am commenting on our culture, which apparently you want to protect.

This question has no relevance to that issue.

The question at hand is whether or not our cultural values are better served by allowing people the long-established freedom to choose how they dress even if we don't like/approve of it, or by casting aside this freedom in the name of some other as-yet-unidentified cultural value that is somehow more important.

The practice of completely covering ones face in public, other than for the eye area, is so alien to our society, that it cannot be adequately dealt with by treating it as an issue of clothing or a matter of fashion.
Given that we know that in moderate muslim countries where women have had freedom without penalty or sanction to wear the veil or not, the majority, particularily younger women, have chosen to not wear it, then I suggest it would be dangerous to assume that all women wearing it in western countries are doing so of their own free will.

bonkey

Laminations wrote: »

The majority in this society do not think it decent to cover ones face in public.

Based on?

bonkey

anymore wrote: »

I suggest it would be dangerous to assume that all women wearing it in western countries are doing so of their own free will.

I haven't made any such assumption....although I would be of the opinion that banning it must be denying at least some women of their free will unless we assume that everyone wearing a burqa is doing so under duress.

Laminations

bonkey wrote: »

Based on?

decency noun (decencies) 1 decent behaviour or character. 2 (decencies) the generally accepted rules of respectable or moral behaviour.

You brought up decency. Defend it so.

Based on? maybe the fact you are the only one on here defending the wearing of burkas?
Maybe that other western societies are having a similar debate. What are you basing your stance on that people here find it decent?

anymore

bonkey wrote: »

You're identifying a cultural value (decency) which is clearly defined in both our society and law (if memory serves), and asking whether or not it would be a problem to allow someone to violate that.

That's not quite the same as the question with the burqa, where people are insisting that its violating some sort of cultural value, but as yet haven't clearly identified any such value.

Sure...we can create a new value, just as we can create a new law....but lets not kid ourselves that we've got some long-standing value that we're upholding if we can't actually identify it.

It is most certainly an Irish cultural value that the wearing of a veil by women does not require the complete covering up ( other than eye areas) of the face.This dehumanising of women is utterly repugnant to the idea of equality of humans. We have long cast aside the idea of segragating men and women in irish Catholic Churches and requiring women to awaat out in the car whilst thier men folk go into the pub.

Eliot Rosewater

Some people here seem to be playing the "we can do this because look what they do in Saudi Arabia" card. The argument is that encroaching upon personal liberty is fine and dandy because its also done in an extremist Muslim country.

So should we continue this train of thought to its natural terminus and start dictating our moral values on the basis of what they do in Saudi Arabia?

Because that is the day when I'll start having reservations about living in Ireland.

anymore

bonkey wrote: »

I haven't made any such assumption....although I would be of the opinion that banning it must be denying at least some women of their free will unless we assume that everyone wearing a burqa is doing so under duress.

I suggest that the far greater numbers of women will have their rights infringed by forced/intimidated/ coerced into waering this hideous symbol of suppression.

Laminations

Ok so if we compare ourselves to Britain then you may be right

Briton, February 01: A third of Britons want to see an outright ban on the burka, according to a poll.
And two thirds believe it should be illegal to wear a burka in places such as banks and airports.
France has been considering a ban on the burka and the issue has caused controversy when it has been raised in the UK.
A ComRes poll of 1,000 people for today’s Independent found that six out of 10 oppose a ban on wearing it in all public places.
Some 52 per cent disagreed with the proposition that there should be no legal restrictions on wearing a burka, while 43 per cent agreed.
Asked whether it should be illegal to wear a burka in any public place, 36 per cent agreed and 59 per cent disagreed. Some 64 per cent believe that it should be illegal to wear a burka in places such as banks and airports, while 33 per cent disagree.
Around 60 per cent said schools should be allowed to prevent teachers wearing burkas.
The most striking variation of opinion is by age. Only 15 per cent of 18-24 year-olds believe that the burka should be banned in any public place, compared to 57 per cent of over-65s. Women are more opposed to restrictions than men.
UKIP is the only British party to call for a total ban, after the BNP called for it to be banned in schools.
Nigel Farage, who leads UKIP’s 13 MEPs in Brussels, claimed that burkas were a symbol of an ‘increasingly divided Britain’.

The difference here is that the majority oppose an outright ban but support some restrictions. I'd be of the same opinion. As Ive said before. I'll amend my post using 'certain'

Laminations wrote: »

I agree with a ban in certain public places. )

anymore

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Some people here seem to be playing the "we can do this because look what they do in Saudi Arabia" card. The argument is that encroaching upon personal liberty is fine and dandy because its also done in an extremist Muslim country.

So should we continue this train of thought to its natural terminus and start dictating our moral values on the basis of what they do in Saudi Arabia?

Because that is the day when I'll start having reservations about living in Ireland.

Can we agree to quote the people we are suggesting are taking one position or another ?

fontanalis

Laminations wrote: »

A bit insulting?
I agree there are some women who want to wear it. My problem with this is that their decision is usually underpinned by beliefs that are insulting to males - as in they believe we would objectify them otherwise.

God was so wonderful in his creation of the universe; black holes, nebulas, white dwarves. But cover up your wimmin.
It's a creation of male sexual repression nothing else, any woman who covers herself in one has no self respect. I remember going through security in Heathrow where a family was going through, the wife with her burka and even their young daughter in a wheel chair had one, for f**k sake does she not suffer enough?

Laminations

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Some people here seem to be playing the "we can do this because look what they do in Saudi Arabia" card. The argument is that encroaching upon personal liberty is fine and dandy because its also done in an extremist Muslim country.

So should we continue this train of thought to its natural terminus and start dictating our moral values on the basis of what they do in Saudi Arabia?

Because that is the day when I'll start having reservations about living in Ireland.

So Saudi Arabi is intolerant in your eyes, would that make the people from Saudi who are here intolerant? Or are they only intolerant in their borders? Sorry but is there any onus on those who are integrating here to show tolerance for our cultural norms and values? regardless on what aspersions you may cast on their homeland. Thay are integrating into a 'tolerable' society yet we are to give the lions share of respect to their values. Intolerance works both ways.

anymore

Again and again, I have seen, in print and on the TV, spokesmen from different muslim countries explain that western style democracy isnt suitable for their countries because Muslim countries have different cultural values. Fair enough, I accept that.
I believe practices from middle eastern muslim countries such as the burqa arent suitable for our western style democracies. So let the burqa remain in Muslim countries. Live and let live.

nij

No need to ban it. When was the last time we saw a woman in a burka robbing a bank committing a crime on crimestoppers? How exactly is a burka used to commit terrorist acts? How many of the 911 hijackers or 7/7 bombers were wearing them? This banning of burkas is about one thing - stirring up tension. It's worrying how so many young people nowadays are quick to talk about 'culture clashes' and other conservative nonsense. And speaking of which, there was a time when we weren't so phobic of middle eastern culture. Remember when we used to think of snake charmers, magic carpets, The Prince of Persia... Now most people think derka derka derka Ahmed the terrorist and other such racist filth. Gotta hand it to the right wing media... *applause*

anymore

bonkey wrote: »

Based on?

Based on the fact that we have never done it, ever.
Even when it was customary in some polite sections of society to waer a facil veil during periods of mourning, these were see through.
Even the most ferevent of Nuns did not have to wear burqa like veil.
Put very simply, it is a very rude practice !

Eliot Rosewater

anymore wrote: »

Can we agree to quote the people we are suggesting are taking one position or another ?

Obliged:

celticbest wrote: »

If my wife and I go to a Muslim country more often than not she has to be covered up...

Kent Brockman wrote: »

The women had to cover up- long sleeves and ground length skirts and had to have their hair tied up if they left the compound.

Ok, so perhaps I got ahead of myself. But I did so because in every thread like this there seems to be calls from some quarters that such a move should be tolerated because Saudi Arabia does something like it. My point is that Saudi Arabia should not come into is, unless people want to start taking their moral values from there.

Laminations wrote: »

Sorry but is there any onus on those who are integrating here to show tolerance for our cultural norms and values?

I dont see Muslims here advocating having us all wear Burka's. Most of them appear to be working within the "live and let live" philosophy that exists in the West. So your argument is redundant.

anymore wrote: »

I believe practices from middle eastern muslim countries such as the burqa arent suitable for our western style democracies. So let the burqa remain in Muslim countries. Live and let live.

I dont think you understand what "live and let live" means.

Laminations

nij wrote: »

No need to ban it. When was the last time we saw a woman in a burka robbing a bank committing a crime on crimestoppers? How exactly is a burka used to commit terrorist acts? How many of the 911 hijackers or 7/7 bombers were wearing them? This banning of burkas is about one thing - stirring up tension. It's worrying how so many young people nowadays are quick to talk about 'culture clashes' and other conservative nonsense. And speaking of which, there was a time when we weren't so phobic of middle eastern culture. Remember when we used to think of snake charmers, magic carpets, The Prince of Persia... Now most people think derka derka derka Ahmed the terrorist and other such racist filth. Gotta hand it to the right wing media... *applause*

Sorry how do you equate an argument about restricting the wearing of Burkas in public to hatred or intolerance of an entire culture?? What does Prince of Persia have to do with this?? I'd definitely be against allowing the carrying saracen scimitars if that was suggested. Why are you bringing in snake charmers and other such rubbish. I have a slight issue with this one aspect of islamic attire. I've no problem with other garments that express the islamic faith. Nice play of the race card - it should warrant a warning like Godwins law. How is it racist to highlight the traditions of a country??

Laminations

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I dont see Muslims here advocating having us all wear Burka's. Most of them appear to be working within the "live and let live" philosophy that exists in the West. So your argument is redundant.

Neither do I, but if they are interacting with this culture and this culture believes it valuable to interact face-to-face then that is where there is a lack of respect.

P. Breathnach

bonkey has put forward many of the arguments that I might have advanced, which spares you a long post from me.

Very few women in Ireland wear the burqa. More often, those who dress in Islamic style wear the chador or niqab. So we have the challenge of varying degrees of cover. How, then, might we frame a ban so that it be enforceable? And how might we frame it so that it applies only to Islamic women, and not to nuns in traditional habits or to me if I dress for maximum weather protection on a bad day? Should we exclude surgeons who cover up fully for work? What if the surgeon is an Islamic woman?

Problems, problems, problems! It can be very difficult imposing religious discrimination in a society that is largely secular, but is also formally tolerant of all religion.

But if I was responsible for security in a bank, I would feel entitled to refuse admission to any person whose face was covered.

storybud1

respect is a two way thing...don't ban burkas...but we should be free to do what we wish in their country

Laminations

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I dont think you understand what "live and let live" means.

Female genital mutilation - I dont think anyone is suggesting that this happen to me (I am a man) or that I should do it to my daughters so the 'live and let live' philosophy you espouse suggests we should respect cultural values above our own