The Burka. Should wearing it be banned?

wes

anymore wrote: »

Firstly, I introduced article re Turkey as you seemed to pointing out Tureky as a moderate Muslim country.

I was pointing out Turkey as a place where Women don't have to wear the Hijab or Burqa, in reply to someone who claimed that Women have to wear such garments in all Muslim countries.

anymore wrote: »

Thanks be to God 'honour' murders are illegal in Turkey, I shudder to think how many young girls would be murdered in Turkey for offending against the ' decency and so called honour' of their relatives if it were legal ! Even the debate about banning the burqa has served a purpose in highlighting the barbarity behind the system which has as one of its manifestations the forcible wearing of this wretched device.

Either way it has feck all to do with present topic. We are talking about the Burqa being banned in the West.

anymore wrote: »

As to the relevance of what other countries allow having an influence on what happens here, the figures for for the murder of islamic girls in Britain, Germany and France show clearly that along with the importation of forcibile wearing of the burqa, comes the importation of 'honor' murders.

Forcing someone to wear the Burqa and killing them, are already illegal. So again, fail to see the relevance.

anymore wrote: »

As for a ban on burqas stopping murders, as i have said, just debating it raises awareness which may some day lead to the muslim community rejecting these killings all together.

I sincerly doubt having a debate on Burqa will change that. Now having a debate on Honour killings could have that effect, but we aren't discussing that.

sparkling sea

wes wrote: »

I sincerly doubt having a debate on Burqa will change that. Now having a debate on Honour killings could have that effect, but we aren't discussing that.

You don't believe in the ripple effect then ?

wes

sparkling sea wrote: »

Thats not problem, thanks for the apology I appreciate it.

Fair enough.

sparkling sea wrote: »

Obviously there is a major difference between force and choice, Just as there is a major difference between saying nothing and actually consenting to something. The same can be said about consenting to wearing a burqa and actively wishing to wear one. I would question the stability of any women in the Western world who would choose to wear this oppressive tool freely, I would further question her ability to give free and true consent.

You can question there stability all you like, but I fail to see what right you or anyone else has to tell other what they can or cannot wear.

You may think them unstable, they may consider themselves completely stable.

sparkling sea wrote: »

However even if a women consents to wearing a burqa, the question has to be put to her to begin with. I don't believe any woman would make such a choice freely and without either/or covert or overt fear force or fraud and/ brainwashing being present.

What you believe doesn't matter, what you can prove is what matters. Unless you can disprove the words of the Women who say they want to wear the Burqa, then your arguement doesn't have a leg to stand on. I have no reason to doubt that some people want to wear the Burqa, in much the same way as I don't doubt some people like to jump out air planes for fun. Both seem insane to me, but the people who them, say they want to do it.

sparkling sea wrote: »

But just say she did, do you think she could then change her mind and stop. Living within a community that accepts the wearing of a burqa, and deciding to wear one without that actual knowledge of how it will imprison her, would this women or young impressionable girl because that’s what she usually is then have choice to abandon this custom. I don't believe that she would as rule.

Your talking about hypoteticals now. I have no idea either way. If someone is forcing her to wear a Burqa, then that is a matter for the police.

sparkling sea wrote: »

Young people in Ireland make their confirmation at 12 or 13, there ability to consent to freely choose to be a member of the Catholic Church for the rest of their life is nonsense. Its not something they would actively consider doing unless it was pushed on them from a very young age. The allure of the money is another contributing factor.

Which isn't exactly the same as a Burqa, which can be removed.

sparkling sea wrote: »

I wonder how they lure girls into wearing the burqa.

I have no idea if someone is being "lured" or not. Some say it is due to a deep religous conviction. Perhaps, its best you ask the Women who wear the garment. I am sure you will get a lot of different opinions on the matter.

sparkling sea wrote: »

As I said before I have great difficulty imposing bans on anything and although I would like the burqa to be banned, I think that all the women in a country should make the ultimate decision and I would abide by this.
If a ban was to be enforced I don't know what the penalty would be if this ban was broken, and I don't think current penalties would be appropriate.

Well, the French proposed one would fine the Women wearing them rather ironically, as they claim they are trying to liberate them, but are suddendly fining them.

sparkling sea wrote: »

I tired of discussing this now, it’s giving me a headache - I am glad I don’t have to wear a burqa

Well, sorry if I contributed to your head ache, and I am glad you don't have to wear one either.

sparkling sea

anymore wrote: »

Wes despite his enthusiasm and knowledge of islamic matters says, I think, he doesnt know its origins. So perhaps you might enlighten us ?

Everything seems to point to a facial covering for both sexs in desert conditions. Funny how women only wear it now where as men managed to cast it off - too uncomfortable, anti social and imprisoning I'd say. Those men they know how to look after themselves don't they and unfortuntately some of them are only to happy to hold us down.

Fortunately all men are not the same.

anymore

wes wrote: »

I was pointing out Turkey as a place where Women don't have to wear the Hijab or Burqa, in reply to someone who claimed that Women have to wear such garments in all Muslim countries.



Either way it has feck all to do with present topic. We are talking about the Burqa being banned in the West.



Forcing someone to wear the Burqa and killing them, are already illegal. So again, fail to see the relevance.



I sincerly doubt having a debate on Burqa will change that. Now having a debate on Honour killings could have that effect, but we aren't discussing that.

Turkey is important if only to demonstrate that for some sections of the Muslim community and particularilly that section which has a strict interpretation of what women should be allowed to do, the law of the land jas no relevance. Even when migrants from areas such as Turkey, Pakistan etc migrate to liberal western countries such as Uk, france and Germany, a small porportion of them still ignore the liberal traditions of those countries and the prohibition on murders and murder their own daughters or sisters or nieces. If there were no co-relation between burqa wearing, honour killings and forcible marriages, I dont think i would have much interst one way or another in burqa wearing. If people want to dig up the 40 year old remains of Padre Pio and put him on display or haul one or two bones of St Thersea around Europe ( if thats her name), then other than feeling that that is a morbid ghoulish thing to be doing, let them at it.
It is shame and public ridicule and humiliation that has dragged the Catholic Church into something approaching civilised behaviour in relation to clerical rape and sex abuse and slowly, very slowly their ' traditional' 'cultural' religous' attitude to the God given state of homosexuality is changing as well.
Pardon the pun ; lifting the veil of secrecy' works in the long run. So rasing awareness and debating the issues will work to help reduce honour murders.

P.s Irishconvert - I am not just an 'anti muslim bigot' , I am an 'anti catholic ' one as well. I was and have been standing up in public criticising the catholic church for its uncivilised attitudes to various groups for years. You see I just dont understand why people who say they believe in God have to be so cruel and oppressive - I dont God understands either

wes

anymore wrote: »

Wes despite his enthusiasm and knowledge of islamic matters says, I think, he doesnt know its origins. So perhaps you might enlighten us ?

I never claimed to be any kind of expert btw. If I knew the answer, I would have no issues with saying it, and I don't have the time to research the topic.

wes

anymore wrote: »

Turkey is important if only to demonstrate that for some sections of the Muslim community and particularilly that section which has a strict interpretation of what women should be allowed to do, the law of the land jas no relevance.

I would beg to differ. The law of the land in Turkey is decided by the majority, and that majority is also largely Muslim.

Secondly, I see no link between the Burqa and these honour killings. Incidently, the Burqa doesn't seem to be common in Turkey, even among rural communities where the majority of honour killings happen.

anymore wrote: »

Even when migrants from areas such as Turkey, Pakistan etc migrate to liberal western countries such as Uk, france and Germany, a small porportion of them still ignore the liberal traditions of those countries and the prohibition on murders and murder their own daughters or sisters or nieces.

Which are all terrible crimes, but I fail to see the relevance to Burqa's once again, unless the vast majority of these murder are due to them not wearing a Burqa, and to be best of my knowledge this is not the case.

anymore wrote: »

If there were no co-relation between burqa wearing, honour killings and forcible marriages, I dont think i would have much interst one way or another in burqa wearing. If people want to dig up the 40 year old remains of Padre Pio and put him on display or haul one or two bones of St Thersea around Europe ( if thats her name), then other than feeling that that is a morbid ghoulish thing to be doing, let them at it.

So I take you can prove this co-relation then? I don't see it personally, even the example you cited had nothing to do with the Burqa.

anymore wrote: »

It is shame and public ridicule and humiliation that has dragged the Catholic Church into something approaching civilised behaviour in relation to clerical rape and sex abuse and slowly, very slowly their ' traditional' 'cultural' religous' attitude to the God given state of homosexuality is changing as well.
Pardon the pun ; lifting the veil of secrecy' works in the long run. So rasing awareness and debating the issues will work to help reduce honour murders.

Yes, and you can start a topic on it then. However, this has nothing to do with the current topic, which is whether the Burqa should be banned or not, which is what I am discussing, and the title of the thread is about whether it should be banned or not.

So how would banning the Burqa effect Honour killings then? Personally, I doubt it will effect it at all.

irishconvert

anymore wrote: »

P.s Irishconvert - I am not just an 'anti muslim bigot' , I am an 'anti catholic ' one as well.

I wasn't referring to you personally. It's just that I have seen that report quoted several times on boards and people always leave out the part where the author says the murders are not based on religious beliefs but rather deeply rooted cultural ones. This is because it does not suit the bigoted point of view they are trying to make.

anymore wrote: »

I was and have been standing up in public criticising the catholic church for its uncivilised attitudes to various groups for years. You see I just dont understand why people who say they believe in God have to be so cruel and oppressive - I dont God understands either

People are people, these people who are cruel and opressive would be the same if they had no religion, that is just how they are. I believe in God and I don't opress my wife. It is unfair of you to tar all religious people with the same brush based on the evil ones you find.

anymore

wes wrote: »

I never claimed to be any kind of expert btw. If I knew the answer, I would have no issues with saying it, and I don't have the time to research the topic.

Well then both of us have an interest in exploring the origins of burka wearing. So we can both agree on that at least, establish some common ground.

sparkling sea

wes wrote: »

Unless you can disprove the words of the Women who say they want to wear the Burqa, then your arguement doesn't have a leg to stand on. Both seem insane to me, but the people who them, say they want to do it.

Which isn't exactly the same as a Burqa, which can be removed.

Perhaps, its best you ask the Women who wear the garment. I am sure you will get a lot of different opinions on the matter.

Well, sorry if I contributed to your head ache, and I am glad you don't have to wear one either.

I really dont need to disprove anymore then you would need to prove.

Enallages between sky diving and the burka don't stand up, I would say psycological bullying and the burqa.

I have tried to ask, the reply I received "Thats enough" and the reply didn't even come from the person I asked, unfortuntely she said nothing at all. I couldn't tell how any of the women I asked felt as I couldn't see there expressions - They could have been happy, they could have been sad.

A childhood male friend of mine has 4 burqa wearing wives - he is Irish - he doesn't really talk to me now and even though he introduced me to his wives, the whole thing was embarressing and uncomfortable - 4 wives, all in black, covered from head to toe.

He would have gone ballistic if I had had 4 husbands, fully covered and he implied that I could only ask the certain things. Its nice to be important but more important to be nice and I wouldn't overstep the mark with people I don't know
The headache comes on trying to decide on the greater of 2 evils. The ban or the burqa - I think its the burqa

I am going to work - bye

anymore

irishconvert wrote: »

I wasn't referring to you personally. It's just that I have seen that report quoted several times on boards and people always leave out the part where the author says the murders are not based on religious beliefs but rather deeply rooted cultural ones. This is because it does not suit the bigoted point of view they are trying to make.


People are people, these people who are cruel and oppressive would be the same if they had no religion, that is just how they are. I believe in God and I don't oppress my wife. It is unfair of you to tar all religious people with the same brush based on the evil ones you find.

I am not really taking it personally ! And if I was I am thick skinned enough at this stage not to be bothered. For some reason I had assumed from your posts on the thread, that you were a woman and had once or twice wondered if you had at some stage been a regular wearer of the burqa, but obviously not. So we both share the disadvantage in this debate of not actually ever having to wear a burqa.
However you may be able to give us more information on the actual origins of the burqa wearing tradition.
My own experience as a person brought up as a catholic in the 60's is that there was much of or about the catholic traditions we were not taught at all. I have a personal reason, for example for feeling angry about the false tradition regarding the state of Limbo - suffice to say that the Church is now, in its leisurely way, getting ready to say that it was just a ' made up thing' - never a part of the 'Real Truth'. Maybe they can say it was just part of a deep rooted tradition.

Zombrex

anymore wrote: »

Indeed my reason for supporting a ban on burqas is to let ' them' know what we think of gender apartheid'.

By enacting a law that says women cannot wear a particular piece of clothing?

Seriously? That is how we let them know how we feel about gender apartheid? What are we letting them know, that we are cool with it?

What is the difference between a Muslim state saying "Women! we know what is best for you, wear this" and the Irish state saying "Women! we know what is best for you, you can't wear this!"

wes

sparkling sea wrote: »

You don't believe in the ripple effect then ?

Ripple effect? Is that like the butterfly effect?

abouttobebanned

wow...this is a long thread.

Has anyone mentioned the subject of Vitamin D deficiency?

wes

sparkling sea wrote: »

I really dont need to disprove anymore then you would need to prove.

Enallages between sky diving and the burka don't stand up, I would say psycological bullying and the burqa.

I have tried to ask, the reply I received "Thats enough" and the reply didn't even come from the person I asked, unfortuntely she said nothing at all. I couldn't tell how any of the women I asked felt as I couldn't see there expressions - They could have been happy, they could have been sad.

A childhood male friend of mine has 4 burqa wearing wives - he is Irish - he doesn't really talk to me now and even though he introduced me to his wives, the whole thing was embarressing and uncomfortable - 4 wives, all in black, covered from head to toe.

He would have gone ballistic if I had had 4 husbands, fully covered and he implied that I could only ask the certain things. Its nice to be important but more important to be nice and I wouldn't overstep the mark with people I don't know
The headache comes on trying to decide on the greater of 2 evils. The ban or the burqa - I think its the burqa

I am going to work - bye

You can read about Women who want to wear the Burqa online. I have no reason to doubt them personally, and personally they can wear whatever they hell they want. You can call it psychological bullying or whatever, but I can't honestly say that this doesn't take place in at least some of the case or vice versa.

MikeC101

wes wrote: »

You can read about Women who want to wear the Burqa online. I have no reason to doubt them personally, and personally they can wear whatever they hell they want. You can call it psychological bullying or whatever, but I can't honestly say that this doesn't take place in at least some of the case or vice versa.

I've read a report by Glen Heggstad (motorcycle adventurer guy) when he was staying with a Bedouin family in Egypt on one of his journeys, and some of the women told him they preferred to veil their faces when in the company of men - they thought it added an air of mystery, and sexiness.

Equally, I wouldn't be able to say whether that's in any way a common opinion, but I wouldn't discount the possibility.

There's a big issue for me that in if the state is doing this to liberate women who are forced to cover themselves, they're the very ones it will end up harming. If they're already in a situation where they are being made dress up against their will to go out in public, and the state is unable to do anything about this, making it illegal for them wear a burqa only means they'll become prisoners in their homes. They'll be out of sight, and have even less freedom.

ChocolateSauce

sparkling sea wrote: »

But you can't have real liberty unless you have real equality

You can't have real equality if it is being forced on anyone. Then you have neither liberty nor equality, just a bully dictating terms to an unequal.

anymore

Wicknight wrote: »

By enacting a law that says women cannot wear a particular piece of clothing?

Seriously? That is how we let them know how we feel about gender apartheid? What are we letting them know, that we are cool with it?

What is the difference between a Muslim state saying "Women! we know what is best for you, wear this" and the Irish state saying "Women! we know what is best for you, you can't wear this!"

I tend to be against the banning of things generally but unfortunatlely it seems to be a case of the lesser of two evils - there seems from many of the posts here to be an element of denial about the brutality and even murders that emanate from the extreme conservative wing of Islam.
As I've siad before, I can out up with being treated as potential terrorist who intends to blow upo any plane I am about to embark on, the physical pat downs and all the security hassle that accompanies air travel now, but please dont ask me to accept that burqa wearing is a completely voluntary and harmless fashion accessory.
I am tired of religion and/or culture being the reasons we are asked to accept the most ridiculous and outlandish practices. Lets give sanity a try for a change !

wes

anymore wrote: »

I tend to be against the banning of things generally but unfortunatlely it seems to be a case of the lesser of two evils - there seems from many of the posts here to be an element of denial about the brutality and even murders that emanate from the extreme conservative wing of Islam.

You have yet to establish how banning the Burqa will help.

anymore wrote: »

As I've siad before, I can out up with being treated as potential terrorist who intends to blow upo any plane I am about to embark on, the physical pat downs and all the security hassle that accompanies air travel now, but please dont ask me to accept that burqa wearing is a completely voluntary and harmless fashion accessory.

No one has called it a harmless fashion accessory, but either way Women still have a right to wear the damn thing.

Also, no one has said all instance of Women wearing the Burqa is voluntary either btw.

anymore wrote: »

I am tired of religion and/or culture being the reasons we are asked to accept the most ridiculous and outlandish practices. Lets give sanity a try for a change !

So, basically you want to liberate Women by forcing it on them? I fail to see the sanity in such a scenario.

anymore

[

QUOTE=MikeC101;64623483]I've read a report by Glen Heggstad (motorcycle adventurer guy) when he was staying with a Bedouin family in Egypt on one of his journeys, and some of the women told him they preferred to veil their faces when in the company of men - they thought it added an air of mystery, and sexiness.

.

Mike, I guess the Bedouin are more tolerant than the family of the two girls referred to below :

Another well known case was of Heshu Yones, who was stabbed to death by her father in London in 2002, when her family heard a love song dedicated to her and suspected she had a boyfriend.[25] Another girl suffered a similar fate in Turkey.[26]


Turkey was also the location for the girl who was buried alive by her father because she had male friends;
:http://www.montrealgazette.com/Girl+...342/story.html

MikeC101

anymore wrote: »

[
Mike, I guess the Bedouin are more tolerant than the family of the two girls referred to below :

Another well known case was of Heshu Yones, who was stabbed to death by her father in London in 2002, when her family heard a love song dedicated to her and suspected she had a boyfriend.[25] Another girl suffered a similar fate in Turkey.[26]


Turkey was also the location for the girl who was buried alive by her father because she had male friends;
:http://www.montrealgazette.com/Girl+...342/story.html

Really, I'm not sure I understand why you keep bringing the straw man of Kurdish honour killings (which is an illegal act anyway) into this.

anymore

wes wrote: »

You have yet to establish how banning the Burqa will help.



No one has called it a harmless fashion accessory, but either way Women still have a right to wear the damn thing.

Also, no one has said all instance of Women wearing the Burqa is voluntary either btw.



So, basically you want to liberate Women by forcing it on them? I fail to see the sanity in such a scenario.

Well if people could make their own minds up about religion without the brainwashing and intimidation and the potential threats of death for ' dishonouring' the family, it wouldn't matter a damn to me.
Nice of you to say that women have a right to wear a burqa but that not all women do it voluntarily...

But of course as someone suggested earlier, if there were more academic studies done we would be in better situation to know how many have free will - however if the penalty for a song dedicated to a girl ended up with her death, then how can to get many of the relevant girls to freely give their opinion, if they are afraid doing so might dishonour the family.
Catch 22: Being afraid to speak out -= voluntary acceptance of burqa = there is no problem !

wes

anymore wrote: »

Well if people could make their own minds up about religion without the brainwashing and intimidation and the potential threats of death for ' dishonouring' the family, it wouldn't matter a damn to me.

So, according to you, every single time a Woman wear a Burqa, she is either brain washed or being some how forced into it. So basically, you are disregarding Women who say they want to wear it, as you have decided that they are brain washed. I some how doubt there all brain washed personally.

anymore wrote: »

Nice of you to say that women have a right to wear a burqa but that not all women do it voluntarily...

I said it a couple of times up thread already, which you seemed to have completely missed or just ignored.

anymore wrote: »

But of course as someone suggested earlier, if there were more academic studies done we would be in better situation to know how many have free will - however if the penalty for a song dedicated to a girl ended up with her death, then how can to get many of the relevant girls to freely give their opinion, if they are afraid doing so might dishonour the family.
Catch 22: Being afraid to speak out -= voluntary acceptance of burqa = there is no problem !

So, basically even if we do academic research, you will still reject the results, as these Women can't speak out, and somehow banning the Burqa will change this magically, except that not all Women who are oppressed are forced to wear the Burqa, and as such it will just make the issue less visible, and be counter productive.

I still don't believe your ban will help anyone, and will imho be counter productive overall.

anymore

MikeC101 wrote: »

Really, I'm not sure I understand why you keep bringing the straw man of Kurdish honour killings (which is an illegal act anyway) into this.

Another well known case was of Heshu Yones, who was stabbed to death by her father in London in 2002, when

A stabbing in London of a young girl cannot be written off as " a Straw man of Kurdish honour killing (i.e brutal murder)"

MikeC101

anymore wrote: »

Another well known case was of Heshu Yones, who was stabbed to death by her father in London in 2002, when

A stabbing in London of a young girl cannot be written off as " a Straw man of Kurdish honour killing (i.e brutal murder)"

Do you think, maybe, I was referring to the two links you provided referring to Kurdish honour killings?

But if it makes you happier, let me rephrase:

I'm not sure why you keep bringing the straw man of honour killings (which is an illegal act anyway) into this.

Because I understand why you're doing it. You're trying to associate honour killings with the wearing of a burqa as much as possible, in an attempt to give legitimacy to your notion that allowing people to wear burqas encourages honour killings.

anymore

wes wrote: »

So, according to you, every single time a Woman wear a Burqa, she is either brain washed or being some how forced into it. So basically, you are disregarding Women who say they want to wear it, as you have decided that they are brain washed. I some how doubt there all brain washed personally.



I said it a couple of times up thread already, which you seemed to have completely missed or just ignored.



So, basically even if we do academic research, you will still reject the results, as these Women can't speak out, and somehow banning the Burqa will change this magically, except that not all Women who are oppressed are forced to wear the Burqa, and as such it will just make the issue less visible, and be counter productive.

I still don't believe your ban will help anyone, and will imho be counter productive overall.

Since this thread began, the little research I have done has reinforced the initial feelings I had about this issue. I have to say, I wasn't really aware of the extent of the killings and brutality that was being carried on in the name of so called 'honour'. In my opinion these people don't even understand the meaning of honour and certainly don't understand what it is to be civilised. Killing your own daughter or sister or niece is so repulsive and unnatural that the notion these people believe in a God is insanity !

Zombrex

anymore wrote: »

I tend to be against the banning of things generally but unfortunatlely it seems to be a case of the lesser of two evils - there seems from many of the posts here to be an element of denial about the brutality and even murders that emanate from the extreme conservative wing of Islam.

Ok, but how does banning all women from wearing a Burka stop violence from extreme Islam?

I'm not even following the logic there, let along agreeing with it.

It is like saying we should ban Christian pledge rings because some fathers beat their daughters when they end up having sex with boys.

anymore wrote: »

but please dont ask me to accept that burqa wearing is a completely voluntary and harmless fashion accessory.

Whether you accept that is irrelevant. This isn't about you.

You don't have a right to force women to behave as you want them to, Muslim or otherwise.

If a Muslim woman wants to wear a Burka she can. If she doesn't want to but is being forced by someone else then tackle that problem.

anymore wrote: »

I am tired of religion and/or culture being the reasons we are asked to accept the most ridiculous and outlandish practices.

I'm sick of "Muslim extremism" being used as an excuse to sneak in rules that strip rights away and force people to behave in a particular way that fits better with how some people think our "culture" is.

Banning the Burka is nothing to do with protecting women (since it won't do that) and everything to do with trying to make everyone look the same.

anymore

MikeC101 wrote: »

Do you think, maybe, I was referring to the two links you provided referring to Kurdish honour killings?

But if it makes you happier, let me rephrase:

I'm not sure why you keep bringing the straw man of honour killings (which is an illegal act anyway) into this.

Because I understand why you're doing it. You're trying to associate honour killings with the wearing of a burqa as much as possible, in an attempt to give legitimacy to your notion that allowing people to wear burqas encourages honour killings.

Re Kurdish muslim murders of daughters and sisters, the reason I specifiacally referred to Turkey was in relation to a comment made by Wes. Why do you refer to the ongoing murder of Muslim girls as ' the straw man ..' ?
As for being illegal, murder by definition is illegal - the vitcims are still dead though. No the murder of young muslim girls in european countries is more relevant because it shows that it is not just related to the culture of particuluar regions in third world countries or due to ignorance arising from lack of education or from not knowing any better. Perhaps you or Wes or irishconvert can tell me why this kind of murder even goes on in countries like UK and france ? And amongst what other religous groups does this kind of killing happen in Uk ?

anymore

Wicknight wrote: »

Ok, but how does banning all women from wearing a Burka stop violence from extreme Islam?

I'm not even following the logic there, let along agreeing with it.

It is like saying we should ban Christian pledge rings because some fathers beat their daughters when they end up having sex with boys.



Whether you accept that is irrelevant. This isn't about you.

You don't have a right to force women to behave as you want them to, Muslim or otherwise.

If a Muslim woman wants to wear a Burka she can. If she doesn't want to but is being forced by someone else then tackle that problem.



I'm sick of "Muslim extremism" being used as an excuse to sneak in rules that strip rights away and force people to behave in a particular way that fits better with how some people think our "culture" is.

Banning the Burka is nothing to do with protecting women (since it won't do that) and everything to do with trying to make everyone look the same.

The deabte on banning the burka alone has raised the awareness of the murders and honour killings associated with conservative islam
You can read back a couple of pages of posts if you dont understand the logic - if you still dont, then I cant help that.

I'm sick of "Muslim extremism" being .Lots of us are sick of muslim extremeism and Catholic extremism and every kind of religous extremeism as well ! I dont discriminate between the crimes inflicted on humanity in the name of religion.
How about helping to end the 'extremism'.

MikeC101

anymore wrote: »

Re Kurdish muslim murders of daughters and sisters, the reason I specifiacally referred to Turkey was in relation to a comment made by Wes. Why do you refer to the ongoing murder of Muslim girls as ' the straw man ..' ?

It's a straw man because in response to my post about Bedouin women who said they wanted to wear a veil, you posted a link to honour killings. No attempt to discuss what I said, just links to honour killings. And you've done that quite a bit throughout the thread.

anymore wrote: »

As for being illegal, murder by definition is illegal - the vitcims are still dead though. No the murder of young muslim girls in european countries is more relevant because it shows that it is not just related to the culture of particuluar regions in third world countries or due to ignorance arising from lack of education or from not knowing any better.

I'm trying to follow your logic here. So by banning the wearing of the burqa, somehow people, who wouldn't be following the law anyway if they're going to commit an honour killing, won't do it? I agree with what Wes has said - it will only mean that women otherwise allowed outside their homes, but forced to wear a veil, will now be forced to stay inside them. And the problem will continue, though nicely out of sight.

anymore wrote: »

Perhaps you or Wes or irishconvert can tell me why this kind of murder even goes on in countries like UK and france ? And amongst what other religous groups does this kind of killing happen in Uk ?

Honour killings mostly take place in Muslim families / communities, and to a lesser extend, Sikh and Hindu.

Why? Lots of factors I suppose, but poor education, patriarchal view of society, and retaining the mindset of tribal culture all play their part. I'm no fan of organised religion, at all, but to lay the blame solely at the feet of a particular religion is misguided in this case.