The Burka. Should wearing it be banned?

Zombrex

sparkling sea wrote: »

Someone asked what the connection was - and I said they both make women invisible in society or something like that.

I'm pretty sure a woman walking around in a full Burka would be described as anything other than invisible.

Do you really think that because I can't see her face I won't care that her father kills her for kissing a boy?

sparkling sea wrote: »

I haven't said I feel banning the burqa will directly stop honour killings although I do think in some cases it may have an indirect influence on this practice.

How?

Directly or indirectly can someone please explain the logic here because it seems completely missing.

People seem to be just hi-jacking the terrible phenomena of honor killings to try and remove something they feel unsettled by (a woman covering her face)

And why are you all ignoring the fact that a ban on a Burka is basically the state disrespecting the rights of women.

It fails any number of discrimination and civil rights standards.

Yet this is supposed to inspire Muslims not to treat their women badly?

Zombrex

Sand wrote: »

I am sure there are women who do wear the burqa by choice. I am equally sure there are women who cut themselves by choice.

Do you accept that some women wear long baggy trousers because they are self conscious about how people, particularly men, would view them if they wore more revealing tight jeans or a skirt?

Should these women be banned from wearing baggy unflattering clothes and forced to wear revealing clothes so they can realize that they shouldn't feel self conscious?

I really don't understand why people have such difficultly with the idea that some women wear the burka out of choice and are in fact quite happy to.

anymore

Aqsa Parvez told friends and adults at her public high school that she feared what her father would do if she stuck by her decision to reject the hijab — the Islamic headscarf. She also said it’s better to live in a shelter than at home.
Nobody listened. Now she’s dead

http://www.irshadmanji.com/im-aqsa-parvez-she-dies-as-we-cover-up-the-diversity-of-muslim-girls

sparkling sea

Wicknight wrote: »

People seem to be just hi-jacking the terrible phenomena of honor killings to try and remove something they feel unsettled by (a woman covering her face)


Yet this is supposed to inspire Muslims not to treat their women badly?

I don't keep bring up honour killings, I didn't bring them up at all, I just replied to a post on them, just not as many times as you

sparkling sea

wes wrote: »

You have refused to say where you have gotten your information from, for some odd reason. It make it next to impossible to deal with what you saying in any kind of reasonable fashion, and I simply don't have time to go to Athens or trawl the web to find where the quote you used came from.

I had a search through Athens the other night and found several articles on research into the banning of religious symbols. I also found an article on what the general consensus regarding the research so far. I don't really have time to trawl through Athens again either

So I have googled (scholar) Patrick Weils and research on the ban, there are a number of sites with articles which discuss the finding.

I am not using this information to support my desicion, I just thought you and others might find it interesting.

As I have already said we will have to agree to disagree

irishconvert

sparkling sea wrote: »

I had a search through Athens the other night and found several articles on research into the banning of religious symbols. I also found an article on what the general consensus regarding the research so far. I don't really have time to trawl through Athens again either

So I have googled (scholar) Patrick Weils and research on the ban, there are a number of sites with articles which discuss the finding.

I am not using this information to support my desicion, I just thought you and others might find it interesting.

As I have already said we will have to agree to disagree

Wes has already asked you numerous times to link to the articles you are talking about. Why are you not doing this?

irishconvert

anymore wrote: »

Aqsa Parvez told friends and adults at her public high school that she feared what her father would do if she stuck by her decision to reject the hijab — the Islamic headscarf. She also said it’s better to live in a shelter than at home.
Nobody listened. Now she’s dead

http://www.irshadmanji.com/im-aqsa-parvez-she-dies-as-we-cover-up-the-diversity-of-muslim-girls

And your point is?

wes

sparkling sea wrote: »

As I have already said we will have to agree to disagree

So I take it I have to go looking for the links myself then. Yeah, can't say I have the time.

Also, I take it you won't be addressing any of the points I brought up, which is fair enough, but sorta renders the whole discussion part of the forum kinda of useless. Alright then, agree to disagree then.

Sand

@Wicknight

Do you accept that some women wear long baggy trousers because they are self conscious about how people, particularly men, would view them if they wore more revealing tight jeans or a skirt?

Should these women be banned from wearing baggy unflattering clothes and forced to wear revealing clothes so they can realize that they shouldn't feel self conscious?

No issue with that at all, what I have an issue with is the burqa which is not equivalent with long baggy trousers. I accept that women over 18 can wear the burqa out of choice - I think its stupid, but whatever - its their right to marginalise and enslave themselves.

But their children...nope. Its not their right to enslave and marginalise their children.

I really don't understand why people have such difficultly with the idea that some women wear the burka out of choice and are in fact quite happy to.

You seem like a really understanding chap. Do you understand why some women cut themselves out of choice and are in fact quite happy to cut themselves? Maybe you ought to go out an defend that as a form of free expression that everyone else is just too dumb to recognise.

@GuanYin

Quote:
It appears to me, to be hardcare plain xenophobia that has been dressed up in this thread as, among other things, feminism, health care, human rights etc etc etc...

Thats a little controversial to simply throw out there. Can you expand on that?

Guan, I was kind of hoping youd expand on your point rather than doing a hit and run....you want to explain the view you hold of the other posters on this thread?

vicecreamsundae

to compare women who choose to wear the burqa to women who choose to cut themselves is beyond ridiculous. if i chose to wear the urqa i would not be harming myself.

some women wear the burqa because it is enforced. some women choose to wear it. some people are claiming they take issues with the burqa because it is a symbol of the oppression of women. in that instance, the burqa is simply one symptom of the oppression and simply banning the burqa will achieve nothing. anyone truly concerned with women's rights would know that regulating what women can and cannot wear is not the answer.

obviously in a high security environment such as an airport, women wearing the burqa are subject to the same security checks as everyone else -metal detectors, pat-downs if neccessary, and now body scanners.
as for lesser but still secure environments such as banks and post offices, anyone can go into a bank in a long/baggy trenchcoat, wear and hat and scarf. besides -i can guarantee you the vast majority of holdups or bomb threats in banks/post offices have been committed by people not wearing burqas. *gasp!*and as for simply on the street?! if covering oneself up wearing a burqa makes other people uneasy that is THEIR problem.
most importantly, what are the official numbers regarding burqas and incidents of violence in Ireland and the UK? minimal to the point of it being ridiculous i would say. complete xenophobia. and even if there is some law brought which states that in certain environments, face coverings are foridden, actually banning the burqa is such a misguided and discriminatory twist on that.

joolsveer

Are there women in Ireland who wear the burqa? I have never seen a burqa in Ireland.

anymore

irishconvert wrote: »

And your point is?

Refusal to wear Islamic headress results in death.
You were looking for links bewteen burqa wearing and honour murders this is it.

P.S there is no evidence of Christian honour murders on that BBC report - it is little more than heresay - no references or evidence what so ever.

wes

anymore wrote: »

Refusal to wear Islamic headress results in death.

Hijab and Burqa are not the same. So a ban wouldn't change a thing. So once again a fail on your point.

I know I said I wasn't going to bother replying anymore, but what the hell.

anymore wrote: »

You were looking for links bewteen burqa wearing and honour murders this is it.

You have yet to provide one, and in anyway a single murder doesn't prove a link to every single honour killing, as you own links have clearly shown Honour Killings happen in Sikh and Hindu communities, and as such the Burqa has no effect on those killings, and you gave several example yourself that had nothing to do with the Burqa.

You have consistently failed to back up your point with any facts, and the continued insistence that you are right won't work, as your own links comprehensivly prove you wrong.

Simply put banning the Burqa will not stop honour killings, and as such has no relevance to the topic. Btw, all face covering is banned in Italy due to the Red Brigade terror attacks, and they still have honour killings. So, there is a real world example, which shows you assertion to be complete and utter nonsense, well more so, as your own links have already done this, seeing as honour killings happen in other communities as well.

Now you can continue to insist on being wrong, and keep banging on about how the Burqa causes honour killings, despite the fact, that reasons are varied and universally nutty, but your absurd insistence of the link between the Burqa and honour killings is increasingly desperate.

**EDIT**
Look here is a very simple question, how exactly will banning the Burqa stop honour killings, in the Muslim community? How will it stop honour killings in the Hindu and Sikh communities? Now how about answering the question this time, and not avoiding it. I know already, it won't change a damn thing, but seeing as your so insistence that it will, then how about you answer the question this time, as opposed to ignoring it. You know ignoring the question does far more damage to your arguement than anything else, and won't be dropping the question either btw, I will keep asking as long as you insist with your arguement.

anymore

wes wrote: »

Hijab and Burqa are not the same. So a ban wouldn't change a thing. So once again a fail on your point.

I know I said I wasn't going to bother replying anymore, but what the hell.



You have yet to provide one, and in anyway a single murder doesn't prove a link to every single honour killing, as you own links have clearly shown Honour Killings happen in Sikh and Hindu communities, and as such the Burqa has no effect on those killings, and you gave several example yourself that had nothing to do with the Burqa.

You have consistently failed to back up your point with any facts, and the continued insistence that you are right won't work, as your own links comprehensivly prove you wrong.

Simply put banning the Burqa will not stop honour killings, and as such has no relevance to the topic. Btw, all face covering is banned in Italy due to the Red Brigade terror attacks, and they still have honour killings. So, there is a real world example, which shows you assertion to be complete and utter nonsense, well more so, as your own links have already done this, seeing as honour killings happen in other communities as well.

Now you can continue to insist on being wrong, and keep banging on about how the Burqa causes honour killings, despite the fact, that reasons are varied and universally nutty, but your absurd insistence of the link between the Burqa and honour killings is increasingly desperate.

**EDIT**
Look here is a very simple question, how exactly will banning the Burqa stop honour killings, in the Muslim community? How will it stop honour killings in the Hindu and Sikh communities? Now how about answering the question this time, and not avoiding it. I know already, it won't change a damn thing, but seeing as your so insistence that it will, then how about you answer the question this time, as opposed to ignoring it. You know ignoring the question does far more damage to your arguement than anything else, and won't be dropping the question either btw, I will keep asking as long as you insist with your arguement.

After posting about the killing for refusal to wear the hijab, I realised that what seemed to be missing from the posts by supporters of buqa wearing was any sense of outrage or indignation about these murders. Sure people say ' we dont approve' or we oppose it', but there doesnt seem to be any sense of moral outrage. That says quite a lot in its own way.
In fact for me it says all that needs to be said.

wes

anymore wrote: »

After posting about the killing for refusal to wear the hijab, I realised that what seemed to be missing from the posts by supporters of buqa wearing was any sense of outrage or indignation about these murders.

Utter nonsense. I don't support wearing the Burqa firstly. So stop the smears, they won't work. I support peoples right to wear what they want, which is a significantly different position, which you simple refuse to acknowledge for what ever bizarre reason. Honestly, your smears will fail, as they are untrue.

The murders are clearly horrible, but you have yet to show what they have to do with the topic at hand, and this time is no different. All you have added is faux outrage, and avoided answering a simple question. As I said, it won't work.

anymore wrote: »

Sure people say ' we dont approve' or we oppose it', but there doesnt seem to be any sense of moral outrage.

That says quite a lot in its own way.
In fact for me it says all that needs to be said.

Oh please, stop the smearing nonsense and faux outrage. You are avoiding answering my simpe question again.

Its astonishing that you refuse to actually answer a simple question. Why is that exactly? Why avoid answering how your off topic post relate to the topic at hand? Why tha faux outrage, at those who ask what the hell the connect is?

The faux outrage is no subsititute for proper debate, which you have consistently refused to do.

So once again, how does banning the Burqa stop honours killing? How does it stop it in the Sikh and Hindu communities? Simple question, which you constantly refuse to answer. The faux outrage won't work, and I won't drop it as long as you keep up your assertion without linking it to the actual topic we are discussing.

Its seem that you will do anything to not answer a simple question, and will instead resort to smears, and straw men arguements. Again, these will not work.

anymore

wes wrote: »

Utter nonsense. I don't support wearing the Burqa firstly. So stop the smears, they won't work. I support peoples right to wear what they want, which is a significantly different position, which you simple refuse to acknowledge for what ever bizarre reason.

The murders are clearly horrible, but you have yet to show what they have to do with the topic at hand, and this time is no different. All you have added is faux outrage, and avoided answering a simple question. As I said, it won't work.



Oh please, stop the smearing nonsense and faux outrage. You are avoiding answering my simpe question again.

Its astonishing that you refuse to actually answer a simple question. Why is that exactly? Why avoid answering how your off topic post relate to the topic at hand? Why tha faux outrage, at those who ask what the hell the connect is?

The faux outrage is no subsititute for proper debate, which you have consistently refused to do.

So once again, how does banning the Burqa stop honours killing? How does it stop it in the Sikh and Hindu communities? Simple question, which you constantly refuse to answer. The faux outrage won't work, and won't drop it as long as you keep up your assertion without linking it to the actual topic we are discussing.

" Faux outrage " - is this the equivalent of " We are where we are ", the latest excuse from FFers to explain their failings ?

wes

anymore wrote: »

" Faux outrage " - is this the equivalent of " We are where we are ", the latest excuse from FFers to explain their failings ?

Another smear, and you still haven't answer my simple question, here it is again:

So once again, how does banning the Burqa stop honours killing? How does it stop it in the Sikh and Hindu communities? Simple question, which you constantly refuse to answer.

Again, your smears will fail, as they are simply untrue. So how about answering my question, and stop trying to make this about other posters.

**EDIT**
To answer your question, the answer is No. I call your outrage, Faux Outrage, as it was a tranparent dodge. Basically, you didn't answer my simple question, and instead complained how other posters were insuffiecently outrage, about something that is off topic.

So how about an answer then? Can we stay on topic, and not discuss other posters?

anymore

wes wrote: »

Another smear, and you still haven't answer my simple question, here it is again:

So once again, how does banning the Burqa stop honours killing? How does it stop it in the Sikh and Hindu communities? Simple question, which you constantly refuse to answer.

Again, your smears will fail, as they are simply untrue. So how about answering my question, and stop trying to make this about other posters.

" The Qur’an asks women and men to dress modestly. That could mean wearing long sleeves. The hijab itself comes from tribal culture that pre-dates Islam. And culture, far from being God-given, is man-made.
You need venture no further than Muslim Girl magazine to witness how mainstream Muslims reinforce the lie that the hijab is mandatory. This supposedly hip (and certainly glossy) publication routinely features covered girls as their cover girls. So much for representing the full diversity of the Muslim sisterhood "

Starting to tell the truth about the origins about burqa wearing would probably be prefereable to banning it, but as we have seen on this thread, the origins of burqa wering brings out cries of " what has that got to do with the thread ? " or " or off topic " etc, etc.
P.S the above quote comes from a well known Muslim commentator - female of course.

wes

anymore wrote: »

" The Qur’an asks women and men to dress modestly. That could mean wearing long sleeves. The hijab itself comes from tribal culture that pre-dates Islam. And culture, far from being God-given, is man-made.
You need venture no further than Muslim Girl magazine to witness how mainstream Muslims reinforce the lie that the hijab is mandatory. This supposedly hip (and certainly glossy) publication routinely features covered girls as their cover girls. So much for representing the full diversity of the Muslim sisterhood "

Okay, so stil no answer my simple question. Why is that?

anymore wrote: »

Starting to tell the truth about the origins about burqa wearing would probably be prefereable to banning it, but as we have seen on this thread, the origins of burqa wering brings out cries of " what has that got to do with the thread ? " or " or off topic " etc, etc.

Wait, did you think that this would work? Really?

We were just talking about how Honour killings relate to the Burqa, and not the origins of the Hijab (which is not the same as a Burqa). Did you think I wouldn't notice, or something?

Now back to my question, which you have again refused to answer, by trying to change the subject (what):
So once again, how does banning the Burqa stop honours killing? How does it stop it in the Sikh and Hindu communities? Simple question, which you constantly refuse to answer.

anymore

wes wrote: »

Okay, so stil no answer my simple question. Why is that?



Wait, did you think that this would work? Really?

We were just talking about how Honour killings relate to the Burqa, and not the origins of the Hijab (which is not the same as a Burqa). Did you think I wouldn't notice, or something?

Now back to my question, which you have again refused to answer, by trying to change the subject (what):
So once again, how does banning the Burqa stop honours killing? How does it stop it in the Sikh and Hindu communities? Simple question, which you constantly refuse to answer.

If a woman can be murdered for not wearing the hjab, then we can be sure and certain women will be murdered for not wearing the more conservative burka; if you need to be told this, what can I say !

I read one defence of the burqa on the internet which had some interesting things to say. However the relevant points made in it have not been reproduced here at all !

wes

anymore wrote: »

If a woman can be murdered for not wearing the hjab, then we can be sure and certain women will be murdered for not wearing the more conservative burka; if you need to be told this, what can I say !

So this effect Hindu and Sikh communties exactly? You only answer half the question btw.

Secondly, you are completely wrong in your assertion. As I have stated, in Italy the Burqa is banned, due to all face coverings being banned due to the red brigades, and Honour killings still happen there. You see honour killings happen for multiple reasons, and due soley to the Burqa. Also, a single instance does not prove that the Burqa is involved with every single honour killing, which it clearly is not, as your own link earlier showed. So I fail to see how what your saying has anything to do with the current topic one way or another.

anymore wrote: »

I
I read one defence of the burqa on the internet which had some interesting things to say. However the relevant points made in it have not been reproduced here at all !

So? People have different opinions to other people?

anymore

wes wrote: »

So this effect Hindu and Sikh communties exactly? You only answer half the question btw.

Secondly, you are completely wrong in your assertion. As I have stated, in Italy the Burqa is banned, due to all face coverings being banned due to the red brigades, and Honour killings still happen there. You see honour killings happen for multiple reasons, and due soley to the Burqa. Also, a single instance does not prove that the Burqa is involved with every single honour killing, which it clearly is not, as your own link earlier showed. So I fail to see how what your saying has anything to do with the current topic one way or another.



So? People have different opinions to other people?

I never suggested that burqas are involved in every single murder.
You refuse to accept that this ridiculous practice just doesnt have legitimate foundation or justification for it other than to denote that the wearer is the property of some male.
Oh, by the way, does wearing a burka make driving difficult ?

wes

anymore wrote: »

I never suggested that burqas are involved in every single murder.

Then why did you post examples of honour killings that had nothing to do with the Burqa? So, we have finally established that the vast majority of your posts on the Honour killings had nothing to do with the topic being discussed. Seeing, as the majority of your examples had nothing to do with the Burqa, and you gave one that was due to the Hijab (not the same as a Burqa).

anymore wrote: »

You refuse to accept that this ridiculous practice just doesnt have legitimate foundation or justification for it other than to denote that the wearer is the property of some male.

Well, you see your wrong again. Some of the Burqa wearing Women say they do it, to show devotion to God. There are many reasons Women wear the Burqa, some are forced, and some do so of there own free will.

I certainly acknowledge in some case, it is due to Women being seen as property, but there are multiple reasons, which you choose to ignore for whatever reason.

Also, I made this clear already, I support people right to wear what they please, and not people who force people what to wear. I made this position clear several times already.

anymore wrote: »

Oh, by the way, does wearing a burka make driving difficult ?

Don't know, never tried.

anymore

Don't know, never tried.

Of course I know you havent :D:D
Thinking about it, the Burqa is the satorial equivalent of being branded.
Why on earth would any woman think that wearing a burqa is showing devotion to God ?
As I have said before, it is unnatural and clearly if God wants womens faces to be covered, he would have enusred they could wear beards and moustaches. Every burqa wearing woman is saying to God " We dont think your natural design for us is good enough; you got it wrong"
Wow, a really devotional attitude.

anymore

The article below just highlights some of the absurdities surrounding this practice !
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/10/arab-ambassador-discovers_n_456881.html

An Arab ambassador in Dubai has had his marriage annulled after discovering that his bride, behind her veil, was bearded and cross-eyed.
The couple had only met a few times during their courtship. Each of these times the woman had worn a niqab, an Islamic veil that covers most of the face.
After the marriage contract was signed in Dubai, the ambassador tried to kiss his new wife. However, as he removed the veil, he was shocked at what he saw.
"He was absolutely horrified," a guest said. "The bride had a nice personality, but there was a good reason why she was hiding her looks behind a veil."
The unnamed ambassador went straight to court to annul the marriage, claiming his wife was "bearded and cross-eyed", leaving his wife in tears. The groom claims he had been shown pictures of the ugly bride's prettier sister.
The Islamic Sharia court annulled the marriage but refused to compensate the ambassador for the estimated 500,000 dirhams ($136,000) in gifts he had bought the woman.
To add insult to injury, the man also demanded the woman be sent to a specialist who examined her hormonal deficiencies. The specialist reported the woman was normal and suffered from no hormonal deficiencies.

wes

anymore wrote: »

Of course I know you havent :D:D

Ok.

anymore wrote: »

Thinking about it, the Burqa is the satorial equivalent of being branded.

A Burqa can be take off, so I don't see it.

anymore wrote: »

Why on earth would any woman think that wearing a burqa is showing devotion to God ?

Well, some do. None of my business what they believe, thats up to them.

anymore wrote: »

As I have said before, it is unnatural and clearly if God wants womens faces to be covered, he would have enusred they could wear beards and moustaches.

Well, thats an arguement you need to make with those Women. I am just stating there beliefs on the matter.

anymore wrote: »

Every burqa wearing woman is saying to God " We dont think your natural design for us is good enough; you got it wrong"

No, actually they are all saying different things I would assume. As I stated some believe they are doing it for God, and they have every right to do so, whether anyone likes it or not.

anymore wrote: »

Wow, a really devotional attitude.

Well, that not there attitude. Its yours not theres btw.

wes

anymore wrote: »

The article below just highlights some of the absurdities surrounding this practice !

Sure, its absurd. Still not reason enough to ban it.

anymore

wes wrote: »

Ok.



A Burqa can be take off, so I don't see it.



Well, some do. None of my business what they believe, thats up to them.



Well, thats an arguement you need to make with those Women. I am just stating there beliefs on the matter.



No, actually they are all saying different things I would assume. As I stated some believe they are doing it for God, and they have every right to do so, whether anyone likes it or not.



Well, that not there attitude. Its yours not theres btw.

Just out of curiosity, I notice that you seem to be talking a lot about the beliefs and opinions of all these women. Just how many of them have you consulted ?
I at least have produced a number of articles written by Muslim women arguing against the Burqa and other headwear. Indeed it is refreshing to so much opposition against these bizarre cultural requirements.
I must admit I have never seen anyone expend so much energy defending the right of women to wear something that he apparently doesnt agree with himself and which he isnt required to wear !

wes

anymore wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, I notice that you seem to be talking a lot about the beliefs and opinions of all these women. Just how many of them have you consulted ?

I have read a few opinions online.

How many have you consulted?

anymore wrote: »

I at least have produced a number of articles written by Muslim women arguing against the Burqa and other headwear. Indeed it is refreshing to so much opposition against these bizarre cultural requirements.

Yes, and there are others who want to wear it. So, how about we let the Women choose for themselves? See problem solved.

anymore wrote: »

I must admit I have never seen anyone expend so much energy defending the right of women to wear something that he apparently doesnt agree with himself and which he isnt required to wear !

This thread isn't about me, so lets not make the thread about other people again. Its irrelevant, and utterly pointless.

anymore

wes wrote: »

I have read a few opinions online.

How many have you consulted?



Yes, and there are others who want to wear it. So, how about we let the Women choose for themselves? See problem solved.



This thread isn't about me, so lets not make the thread about other people again. Its irrelevant, and utterly pointless.

This is my last post on this thread for today - I will just end with the observation I made before, that you and some of the other posters are very keen to keep the thread to very narrowly defined paramaters - kinda curious for people who are so interested in 'rights' - as i also said before, growing up in Ireland, I am well used to the strategy of trying to direct the areas on which comments may be passed.
In fact all the different stragems for prtoecting the 'rights' of religions to control their members have been tried and exposed in irleand. We are at last throwing off so many of the shackles imposed by pur own patriarchial catholic Church. Why on earth wouldnt we make the effort to ' Lift the veil' on some of the absurd cultural shackles of other religions ?:):)