The Burka. Should wearing it be banned?

Permabear

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Permabear

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Laminations

donegalfella wrote: »

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There is covering ones face in a protest for the concealment of identity and then there is doing it to make a point. Again easy to tell apart. The purpose of concealing identity is the illegitimate kind.

Halloween is a festival and even then there are appropriate and inappropriate places to wear masks. Also again the pursuse is not the concealment of identity.

Is the veil a well soundproofed garment? Is the voice the totality of human communication?

What defines a public area? Are you being difficult for difficults sake? If you can define public and private spaces for nudists then its not as hard as you pretend it is. We have workable laws for overexposure in place (and what constitutes overexposure), so again it cant be as hard as you think to define laws for underexposure and where they pertain too. Do you whip your mickey out in a 'private' shop and act as pedantic as you are here?

Finally how does revealing your face in public automatically lead to you not being left alone with your thoughts?

Laminations

What was the point in the scientology protesters covering their faces? Why couldn't they protest without masks?

ChocolateSauce

Laminations wrote: »

What was the point in the scientology protesters covering their faces? Why couldn't they protest without masks?

Because in the past people who protested against them but didn't cover up disappeared.

Against oppressive governments, a face covering could save your life.

Permabear

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Nodin

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Because in the past people who protested against them but didn't cover up disappeared.

Against oppressive governments, a face covering could save your life.

Indeed. And face covering by protesters is more a response to massive police filming than anything else.

theg81der

donegalfella wrote: »

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I didn`t say that they were taking my rights away I merely questioned to what extent does it further their agenda, which, by the way, is to make me wear a burqa.

Laminations

donegalfella wrote:

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Thats the point hence the inverted commas. Even though the shop is privately owned its still public in that regardless of what the store owner says you cant show your private parts (by law). Your home on the other hand is private property

Laminations

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Because in the past people who protested against them but didn't cover up disappeared.

Against oppressive governments, a face covering could save your life.

Great, so you can spot a legitimate reason. Good on ya. And in countries with oppressive governments this would be fine

MikeC101

Laminations wrote: »

Great, so you can spot a legitimate reason. Good on ya. And in countries with oppressive governments this would be fine

It doesn't have to be in countries with oppressive governments. If you're going to protest against an organisation like scientology, there's a very legitimate fear of reprisals.

theg81der

I was thinking - maybe they should ban but not enforce the ban of the burqa to send a message to the world that the burqa, universal symbol of female oppression, is not acceptable in our society and has no place in it. They probably have no intension of enforcement, its probably more symbolic.

Permabear

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P. Breathnach

donegalfella wrote: »

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Some of us have a greater than 5% success rate. The first trick is to figure out which ones are approachable. The fact that some might wear burqas helps with the pre-selection of targets.

LeoB

Things are warming up nicely here.

Yes it should be banned.

I am totally against faces being covered up unless people have a bad cold or cough. We are a catholic country whether we like it or not and despite the scandals of recent years. Out of respect they should not were it here.

I dont class myself as racist but I am sick of people ramming their culture down our throats. I do not disrespect these people but they have come to live here and should do so in peace but by our laws.

There is on the other hand a muslim where I work who is very respectful of our ways and culture they are probably moderate. We had a family near us up to recently and it was shameful how the man treated his family, if he were Irish he would be locked up

All to often now we cant or wont express ourselves because we dont want to cause offence. To refer back to a previous post can you see a few Irish women walking down the main market in a muslim country wearing a Bikini? Or Irish soccer fans going to Iran with a few bottles of duty free?

LeoB

donegalfella wrote: »

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Well, not yet;)

Permabear

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Laminations

This debate is going nowhere fast. Its been had and is being had in other countries and by muslims themselves.

www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/10/08/canada-muslim-burka-niqb-ban-government.html

I'm just gonna have to agree to disagree with you. I would point to the comments after that article and suggest that those with the most agreement, as a straw poll of western values, think concealing ones identity shouldn't be allowed.

Permabear

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Nodin

LeoB wrote: »

I am totally against faces being covered up unless people have a bad cold or cough. We are a catholic country

Nope.

LeoB wrote: »

I dont class myself as racist but I am sick of people ramming their culture down our throats.

Examples?

LeoB wrote: »

To refer back to a previous post can you see a few Irish women walking down the main market in a muslim country wearing a Bikini? Or Irish soccer fans going to Iran with a few bottles of duty free?

Irrelevant.

Laminations

donegalfella wrote: »

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No i'm not. If you haven't got the rationale of no covering ones face for the main purpose of concealing identity then reread my posts

donegalfella wrote: »

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No attempts to conceal ones face for the main purpose of concealing identity. I've discussed the mitigating circumstances related to contexts, i despair for you if you wear your winter coat or your hat on your face

donegalfella wrote: »

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When did i say that? What does this have to do with face coverings? Mind that camels nose.

donegalfella wrote: »

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I thought i was making it clear where i draw the line. If one can make the distinction between public and private in terms of where its appropriate to have sex and where its not then i think you'll find the line i've draw. Also if you can tell the difference between face and the rest of the head and body thats also where the line is.
I dont know why you keep bringing up websites as examples of public places, the internet is not face to face interaction.

Think of it as a converse of covering you private parts in public. There are specific private parts that are generally agreed on. The face is a specific public part of your body. This has never really been an issue here because no one habitually walked around in balaclavas of stockings or sheets over there faces. Now it happens that its a religous custom, that in and of itself doesnt make it acceptable.

ChocolateSauce

Laminations wrote: »

Great, so you can spot a legitimate reason. Good on ya. And in countries with oppressive governments this would be fine

A country would be oppressive if they banned facial coverings, by definition, it seems to me.

LeoB wrote:

I am totally against faces being covered up unless people have a bad cold or cough. We are a catholic country whether we like it or not and despite the scandals of recent years. Out of respect they should not were it here.

I'm not a Catholic, and I'm Irish, so if you could please keep your religion out of my face and life, and out of the faces of all non-Catholics, that'd be great, thanks.

Laminations

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

A country would be oppressive if they banned facial coverings, by definition, it seems to me.

Banned? I'm talking about a restriction, and one restriction does not an oppressive country make. If it did then we'd already be very oppressive.

LeoB wrote: »

I am totally against faces being covered up unless people have a bad cold or cough. We are a catholic country whether we like it or not and despite the scandals of recent years. Out of respect they should not were it here.

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I'm not a Catholic, and I'm Irish, so if you could please keep your religion out of my face and life, and out of the faces of all non-Catholics, that'd be great, thanks.

And you are advocating tolerance towards religion? My view on a restriction (for this particular expression of belief, as well as other reasons such as this or this or this - ONLY for the part that conceals the face) is totally moderate compared to you.

LeoB

donegalfella wrote: »

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I disagree with you if thats ok? I am Irish, I am Catholic, I am christian its how I was raised, but I think its about time we started to place restrictions on "other" people coming here whether the be Muslim, Hindu or whatever. They may not be breaking a law but in my opinion they are making a big statement and I dont like it. BTW I am not a regular church goer.

OK I should have said by our "ways"

Intolerant is putting it mildly!! In my opinion we have lost the run of ourselves bending over backwards to facilitate every nationality which has come to these shores. Time to say NO for a change.

We Irish are a good people and have a good country here despite the problems we currently have. We are world leaders in many ways, but now I feel we should stop and look inward and try and recover some of the good things we have lost over the last few years and that does not include facilitating wearing a Burka anywhere in public. Because its O.K in the U.K or the U.S.A. does not mean we have to follow suit.

irishconvert

LeoB wrote: »

I disagree with you if thats ok? I am Irish, I am Catholic, I am christian its how I was raised, but I think its about time we started to place restrictions on "other" people coming here whether the be Muslim, Hindu or whatever. They may not be breaking a law but in my opinion they are making a big statement and I dont like it. BTW I am not a regular church goer.

OK I should have said by our "ways"

Intolerant is putting it mildly!! In my opinion we have lost the run of ourselves bending over backwards to facilitate every nationality which has come to these shores. Time to say NO for a change.

We Irish are a good people and have a good country here despite the problems we currently have. We are world leaders in many ways, but now I feel we should stop and look inward and try and recover some of the good things we have lost over the last few years and that does not include facilitating wearing a Burka anywhere in public. Because its O.K in the U.K or the U.S.A. does not mean we have to follow suit.

I am Irish, I am also Muslim. What do you say to someone like me if my wife wants to wear a Niqab (you call it Burqa)?

Permabear

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Laminations

donegalfella wrote: »

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Firstly there is great debate as to whether the niqab is an essential part of islamic belief and therefore obligatory or whether it is bid`ah (an innovation in religion). Please read up on this before you say it is a religious or cultual tradition.

http://www.islamonline.net wrote:

Coming to the question of niqab, I must say that it is absolutely not considered an essential part of Islamic attire for women. The vast majority of scholars and imams do not consider it as an integral part of the same. It is only a tiny minority who does so.
[Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: and God is well acquainted with all that they do. And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their zeenah (charms, or beauty and ornaments) except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their khimar (veils) over their bosoms and not display their zeenah except to their husbands, their fathers ... and that they should not strike their feet so as to draw attention to their hidden zeenah (ornaments)] (An-Nur 24:31-32).
Commenting on this verse, Ibn `Abbas, the inspired commentator of the Qur'an and the eminent Companion of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), said, "What is to be covered is all of the body except face and hands." The above divine order to lower one's gaze makes sense only where women do not veil their faces.
Furthermore, there is no mention of face veil in the authentic Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him); if it had been an absolute requirement for women to cover their faces, then the Prophet would have said so clearly. It is no wonder then that the vast majority of scholars and jurists have never included the face veil as part of women's attire.

And saying something is a tradition doesn't endow it with purpose. Muslims dont just face east to pray because of tradition, there is a purpose to it. So what is the underlying purpose of said traditions?

Well one purpose of the niqab is

http://www.muhajabah.com wrote:

Niqab as haya
The word "haya" is often translated into English as "shyness", but this does not really give a very good idea of its meaning in Arabic. A better, if longer, translation of its meaning might be "keeping private what should be private".

Its their suggestion the face should be private (even though its not obligatory in Islam), its my suggestion it should be public. I've said now many times, if a majority of people in our society disagree with me and think faces should be covered (i.e. should remain private in public) then fine.

allisbleak

irishconvert wrote: »

I am Irish, I am also Muslim. What do you say to someone like me if my wife wants to wear a Niqab (you call it Burqa)?

I would ask her why.

It should be banned, but then all religion should be banned too. Its all fukcin moronic.

fontanalis

LeoB wrote: »

Things are warming up nicely here.

Yes it should be banned.

I am totally against faces being covered up unless people have a bad cold or cough. We are a catholic country whether we like it or not and despite the scandals of recent years. Out of respect they should not were it here.

I dont class myself as racist but I am sick of people ramming their culture down our throats. I do not disrespect these people but they have come to live here and should do so in peace but by our laws.

There is on the other hand a muslim where I work who is very respectful of our ways and culture they are probably moderate. We had a family near us up to recently and it was shameful how the man treated his family, if he were Irish he would be locked up

All to often now we cant or wont express ourselves because we dont want to cause offence. To refer back to a previous post can you see a few Irish women walking down the main market in a muslim country wearing a Bikini? Or Irish soccer fans going to Iran with a few bottles of duty free?

Yes, let's not forget it. The Famine, mass emigration and institutionalised child abuse; a remnder of how much god loves us.
I don't agree with the burka but no ones ramming their culture down your throat by wearing it.

Permabear

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