Irish Course to be dropped

thetonynator

randylonghorn wrote: »

Irish language to be examined on a 50:50 Written:Oral basis.

.

not quite, it will be 50% written and the other 50 divided between aural and oral ( mostly oral) from 2012

Liveit

Can you already fail Irish but still pass the leaving cert?

Lynkx

Liveit wrote: »

Can you already fail Irish but still pass the leaving cert?

Yes. Well, if you fail maths, you don't fail the entire leaving cert anymore. I'm sure it applies for Irish as well.

randylonghorn

thetonynator wrote: »

not quite, it will be 50% written and the other 50 divided between aural and oral ( mostly oral) from 2012

That was my suggestion for how an Irish language course should be assessed, not so sure it will work so well against the present combined course, but we'll see.

And yes, I was lumping oral / aural in together, probably should have been more clear.

burgess1

randylonghorn wrote: »

You may find them easier, but that's not a valid argument for making maths optional.

Making maths optional would be a terrible idea tbh, as it is we are not sending out enough people with decent maths, and especially higher maths, so colleges are more and more having to provide what are basically "remedial" maths courses in first year for students whose degree is in a subject which relies on maths a lot.

But that's no reason to make maths an entry requirement for courses that don't actually require maths.

In my Junior Cert, I got good grades in languages and an average grade at ordinary level maths. I was very concerned that in the leaving, I could have achieved honours grades in my four languages but been denied a college place if I didn't make the grade in maths. As a result, time that could have been spent improving my language skills was wasted as I tried to study maths. My maths teachers were unable to give students who were interested in maths and enjoyed the subject the attention and assistance they needed because students like myself constantly needed help.

Maybe a system similar to the French one would better suit Irish students. Rather than assuming that every student needs English, Irish, maths and a foreign language, students could decide after the Junior Cert whether the core subjects for their leaving would be scientific (including maths), linguistic/literary or social/economic. It wouldn't necessarily mean that students who chose to focus on sciences couldn't also study Irish, or that students who hadn't decided what career path they wanted to follow had to drop subjects they may actually need later on.

I don't want to dismiss Irish as an 'extinct' language. I liked studying it in school and did well in my Junior Cert but, outside school, I've never been in a situation where I've actually needed to speak it.

partyatmygaff

As much as I have a slight like for the language I have to say my Irish has gotten steadily worse ever since primary school. I can almost easily describe the technical features of Jack or any other Irish poem but I've noticed that most of the actual "useful" irish that I learned back in primary school had been lost. Back in primary school my grammar was always spot on and I had a huge vocabulary of Irish and was (According to my teacher) 2nd best in the class. Nowadays I'm lucky if the essays are right are half sensical. My grammar and vocab is appalling in irish because for the entire duration of the Junior Cert all we did was learn off useless poems like Subh Milis and the like.

I've only been doing French for 4 years and I can safely say that without a doubt my conversational French is far far better than my conversational Irish.

That said, I doubt I will ever utter another word of Irish after my Oral exam in 2011, not because I hate the language or anything but simply because it's well and truly extinct in its use. It's safe to say a few people still speak Irish, maybe even throughout their day-to-day lives. Not enough to justify making the language mandatory considering that 95% of the country forget every bit of Irish they learned the minute they hand up Paper 2.

The other 5% go into teaching the language to another generation and continuing the cycle or just using the language just for the novelty of it. That's all it is today, a novelty language.

Bigdeadlydave

randylonghorn wrote: »

You may find them easier, but that's not a valid argument for making maths optional.

Making maths optional would be a terrible idea tbh, as it is we are not sending out enough people with decent maths, and especially higher maths, so colleges are more and more having to provide what are basically "remedial" maths courses in first year for students whose degree is in a subject which relies on maths a lot.

Well the idea would be if you want to do a course which involves maths, then pick maths. People maintain "Il never use Irish again! My collage course isint an Irish one!" Well the same argument can be made against maths. Post Junior cert I think maths should be optional, or at least not a requirement for every course.

partyatmygaff

Bigdeadlydave wrote: »

Well the idea would be if you want to do a course which involves maths, then pick maths. People maintain "Il never use Irish again! My collage course isint an Irish one!" Well the same argument can be made against maths. Post Junior cert I think maths should be optional, or at least not a requirement for every course.

Yeah but truth be told maths is an important part of a lot of degrees. Science, business, engineering are examples of three huge categories of courses that need maths. Irish is completely and utterly pointless unless you want to teach Irish which is a pointless reason to study a language.

Maths helps you to think logically and improves your problem solving skills. I amn't having a dig at the language or anything but LC irish is just a huge timewaster for anyone doing their LC. The huge amount of time we waste studying how to analyse irish literature or speaking more realistically... How to learn off phrases that can make you look like you know how to analyse irish literature. All of that wasted time could have been spent on studying your other subjects.

randylonghorn

Bigdeadlydave wrote: »

Well the idea would be if you want to do a course which involves maths, then pick maths..... Post Junior cert I think maths should be optional, or at least not a requirement for every course.

As partyathisgaff said, though, a reasonable level of maths is necessary for so many things. Not necessarily honours maths, though we aren't producing enough people with honours maths either.

I couldn't estimate the number of times I have heard employers in the most unexpected of sectors complain that young people don't seem to have good basic maths skills any more.

I would also agree re: the relationship with logic / problem-solving skills, and that's an area that employers are constantly taking the education system to task about ... watch the papers.

partyatmygaff

In all fairness and with respect to both subjects here is a practical example.

Lets say we have two people who just passed their LC and are looking for a job to work part time during college. One of them got an A1 in Honours maths but failed Ordinary Irish and the other student got a D1 in Ordinary level maths but got an A1 in Honours irish.

Realistically speaking if all else was equal, who has the better chance of getting the part time job?

Slugs

partyatmygaff wrote: »

In all fairness and with respect to both subjects here is a practical example.

Lets say we have two people who just passed their LC and are looking for a job to work part time during college. One of them got an A1 in Honours maths but failed Ordinary Irish and the other student got a D1 in Ordinary level maths but got an A1 in Honours irish.

Realistically speaking if all else was equal, who has the better chance of getting the part time job?

Neither I would have taken the job :P

Slugs

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Yeah but truth be told maths is an important part of a lot of degrees. Science, business, engineering are examples of three huge categories of courses that need maths. Irish is completely and utterly pointless unless you want to teach Irish which is a pointless reason to study a language.

Maths helps you to think logically and improves your problem solving skills. I amn't having a dig at the language or anything but LC irish is just a huge timewaster for anyone doing their LC. The huge amount of time we waste studying how to analyse irish literature or speaking more realistically... How to learn off phrases that can make you look like you know how to analyse irish literature. All of that wasted time could have been spent on studying your other subjects.

you could apply the same to maths. Where are you going to need to know the equation of a line, to differentiate and integrate, to work with vectors other then courses involving mechanics, engineering or science? No-where. To me I find it's just as much as a timewaster as Irish, even more so. I could justify learning irish for a nostalgiac, historical and heritage purpose, but maths, unless you're doing something involving difficult calculations, what's the point?

seanbmc

IronGirl92 wrote: »

Aren't the department just about to bring in a new Irish course? For the LC's 2012?
Read somewhere else about someone suggesting the course be split into two different subjects. One for the literature side of things i.e. poems and pros. And the other for just the actual speaking side of things.
I actually think spitting it like that would be a great idea. I love the language, but when it comes to the poetry side of things I'm awful. I wouldn't know how to answer the questions they ask in English, nevermind Irish!

It`s just typical,I`m much better at the spoken Irish side and I actually enjoy my Irish classes now because we are doing lots of oral and listening work. This stuff is much more useful for you IMO.

I dread the classes when we are doing poetry. It`s my weakest part of the course,that and the prose(or however you spell it),these classes would usually consist of us having to translate the whole poem and read translate reams of notes . People would actually enjoy the language more if there was a bigger emphasis on the spoken side.

At least they are finally changing it,just annoyed that it wasn`t for my LC.

Sorry rant over

ride-the-spiral

I think they should change the course, I would prefer they made it optional but I know that too many people would disagree with it. I absolutely abhor higher Irish, there's so much time wasted on prose and poetry. We're just told what sentences and phrases mean and have to learn them off without any understanding of their construction.

There's not enough time allocated to grammar and sentence construction, and even the way that's taught is ineffective. The way that absolutely every aspect of Irish is taught through Irish is just stupid IMO. Obviously there's something to be said for teaching it through Irish, but when learning grammar and the like, it's alot better to teach it through English so that we actually understand it. Requiring to understand the language to learn it is ridiculous, it makes it impossible to do any study without help.

I've been told that I should be getting A1s in alot of my subjects, and I'm told that I'm the best in the class at Irish but I'm still going to end up doing ordinary, just because the amount of work I would have to put in to get a B in higher could be used to get As in other subjects.

The course doesn't only breed hatred of our own language, it makes people hate the culture of the language. It's a language that only a few people in the country can get As from, those people also do better in other subjects because of the extra points, and anybody that doesn't want to do the language is accused of hating their own culture. Well, if Irish culture consists of that then I don't want to be a part of that side of it, and don't want to be forced to.

Lynkx

partyatmygaff wrote: »

In all fairness and with respect to both subjects here is a practical example.

Lets say we have two people who just passed their LC and are looking for a job to work part time during college. One of them got an A1 in Honours maths but failed Ordinary Irish and the other student got a D1 in Ordinary level maths but got an A1 in Honours irish.

Realistically speaking if all else was equal, who has the better chance of getting the part time job?

The guy with the honurs level in maths, obviously. Maths improves one's logic and way of solving problems. Irish is just a course to do because we're Irish.

Making It Bad

Lynkx wrote: »

The guy with the honurs level in maths, obviously. Maths improves one's logic and way of solving problems. Irish is just a course to do because we're Irish.

Exactly. Maths promotes an abstract way of thinking and a way of solving problems which is extremely important for everyone, no matter what you do.

Irish doesn't really offer any useful skills, especially for with things like poetry on the course. I also find it offensive that in order to greet someone in Irish I have to use the word "Dia", it's such an unnecessary religious language.

gemxpink

partyatmygaff wrote: »

In all fairness and with respect to both subjects here is a practical example.

Lets say we have two people who just passed their LC and are looking for a job to work part time during college. One of them got an A1 in Honours maths but failed Ordinary Irish and the other student got a D1 in Ordinary level maths but got an A1 in Honours irish.

Realistically speaking if all else was equal, who has the better chance of getting the part time job?

You really can't compare it like that. Irish is a language and Maths is the use of logistics.

WHirl7

IronGirl92 wrote: »

Aren't the department just about to bring in a new Irish course? For the LC's 2012?
Read somewhere else about someone suggesting the course be split into two different subjects. One for the literature side of things i.e. poems and pros. And the other for just the actual speaking side of things.
I actually think spitting it like that would be a great idea. I love the language, but when it comes to the poetry side of things I'm awful. I wouldn't know how to answer the questions they ask in English, nevermind Irish!

Well that's a noble concept, but can you honestly see more than a handful of students across the country opting for the literature course?

felic

No one would do it and it would vanish from the LC course.

randylonghorn

gemxpink wrote: »

You really can't compare it like that. Irish is a language and Maths is the use of logistics.

Did you mean logic by any chance? :P

WHirl7 wrote: »

Well that's a noble concept, but can you honestly see more than a handful of students across the country opting for the literature course?

It definitely wouldn't be the most popular subject ever, but there would certainly be more than that! Just remember that sizable numbers of students take Irish at Uni, for example.

People with good Irish, from the Gaeltacht or not; people going on to do degrees in Irish or to do primary teaching; people who just genuinely like Irish (there are a few!) ...

gemxpink

WHirl7 wrote: »

Well that's a noble concept, but can you honestly see more than a handful of students across the country opting for the literature course?

I actually think it'd encourage more students to talk the language rather than let it die. Although they wouldn't know many poets or writers, they would be helping to keep the language alive. Also, if they made it so that you had to choose either conversational Irish or Irish literature (ie Irish would still be compulsory) I think it'd be less stress on the student as they would know their limits. Of course they'd need to change the course and have a slight written test for conversational Irish, but I think that what we need to be doing is encouraging people to speak Irish outside of the education system which is the opposite of what we are doing nowadays.

gemxpink

randylonghorn wrote: »

Did you mean logic by any chance? :P

Yesss, as you can tell I am quite sleep deprived from all this studying!

rebel girl 15

IronGirl92 wrote: »

Aren't the department just about to bring in a new Irish course? For the LC's 2012?
Read somewhere else about someone suggesting the course be split into two different subjects. One for the literature side of things i.e. poems and pros. And the other for just the actual speaking side of things.
I actually think spitting it like that would be a great idea. I love the language, but when it comes to the poetry side of things I'm awful. I wouldn't know how to answer the questions they ask in English, nevermind Irish!

I'm totally against making it optional, as I feel the takeup as the syllabus is currently is would be quite poor, but I'd be strongly in favour of splitting it like above, iirc Des Bishop had the same idea, probably before me; he has done more for Irish than anyone else imo. I know Irish mightn't be used every day, but it is part of our cultural identity, and the Gaeltachts as they stand are getting smaller, the number of people speaking Irish on a day to day basis is lessening.

The way I'd like to see it is: one exam would be a compulsory exam with the listening, oral, comprehensions, composing (maybe) and a section on grammer (important!) The other would be optional for students to take, on poetry and prois, the literature. I'm not sure where I would put the stair section, probably in the optional exam as the stair as it is can deal a lot with the poets, and would tie in with the poems. I do believe some students would take up the prois course, from my own school, there was quite a few of us that liked Irish and would have done both

I don't see it happening, as it would take radical thinking on the part of the Dept introducing another new subject at senior level, not when you have Politics and Society, Physical Education and Chemical and Physical Science looking to be introduced. As well as that, the review of languages that started in 2003 changed some of the prois (or so I was told by an Irish teacher!) two years ago (I've found that paper, I'll read it in the morning!!)

JerCotter7

Irish is such a waste of time to be honest. It's my pass subject. I gave up french after 3rd year and would do the same for Irish if I was allowed. Can I get into an IT with foundation irish? Such a waste of a language. Not gonna study for it and hopefully get a D in the pres. If I can pass it tomorrow then I won't do a tap for it in the leaving cert. With 5 higher subjects and link I won't be counting it for points anyway.

wasssuuup

i know we speak english but if we study poetry the native language of england then we should study poetry in our native language. thats my opinion anyway

gemxpink

wasssuuup wrote: »

i know we speak english but if we study poetry the native language of england then we should study poetry in our native language. thats my opinion anyway

Mmm exactly. Giving up on Irish is almost as bad as giving the 6 counties away

Lawliet

wasssuuup wrote: »

i know we speak english but if we study poetry the native language of england then we should study poetry in our native language. thats my opinion anyway

What's the point of having people study Irish poetry when there's students that can't even hold a decent conversation in their native language?

Fad

Making It Bad wrote: »

Irish doesn't really offer any useful skills, especially for with things like poetry on the course. I also find it offensive that in order to greet someone in Irish I have to use the word "Dia", it's such an unnecessary religious language.

Are you honestly trying to tell me that the etymology of an ancient language offends you?

*shakes head*

felic

This thread is hilarious.
If they reformed the syllabus, I think Irish would be a much more popular subject. Paper 2 on the higher level course is just ridiculous.
Fine, keep the poetry prose and drama in it, but ask questions that dont require essays on them! The essay on paper one is enough. The current format is just way too demanding for a subject that most will never see again.
I think its very unfair as well that in the listening part, they throw in the 4 dialects! Its just insane to do that because it requires knowledge and exposure to all 4 dialects thats students simply dont get in the Leaving cert! They should have 4 separate tapes for each region.

partyatmygaff

Fad wrote: »

Are you honestly trying to tell me that the etymology of an ancient language offends you?

*shakes head*

Some people just look for reasons to get offended

wasssuuup wrote: »

i know we speak english but if we study poetry the native language of england then we should study poetry in our native language. thats my opinion anyway

That's not true to reality to be honest.

At most 3-5% would have Irish as their native language.

I think you're confusing native language with indigenous language,

Native language is (According to a few dictonaries)

• Typically known as a persons 'mother tongue'. It is often the first language an individual learns, but it may also be someones 'dominant language' if they are multilingual.
• primary or first language spoken by an individual
• the language that a person has spoken from earliest childhood

Now I'm fairly certain very few people living in Ireland today spoke Irish before English.

The truth is that the native language of Ireland is now English with an Irish minority.