Do I need a degree?

-Trek-

I just wanted to ask the the question "Do I need a degree?" to make it in the development world. A wise man once told me that a degree only gets you to the interview, but can you make it by self study and doing either short courses or on-line certifications which is what I am trying to do at the moment? Or should I just pack my bags and commit 4 years + to college?

My overall ambition is to become a games developer :pac: .... and so would appreciate any input as I am trying to decide how to proceed.

Thanks

Will

bobbytables

Traditionally....Yes!, Technically....No!

I have a few IT degrees and have always worked in IT, yet 95% of the skills I need for my work today come from self learning. Qualifications are purely to build employer confidence on paper and are not a true measure of how beneficial you will be in reality to a company. You could have a degree in IT, but just be good at studying and actually not have any passion for the field at all and this will come through in your daily contribution.

For me, the best people are the ones who are clearly hyper enthusiastic about producing quality, have a thirst for knowledge, are innovative thinkers and possess an aptitude for logical problem solving. Although their day job might end at 5pm, that doesn't mean their work does. For example, I have been on the beer with mates and all of a sudden the solution to a design problem will pop in to my head and out comes the phone to make my notes. I am not alone, there are loads in this industry like me. However there are plenty of people working in IT today who have relevant degrees and who literally can't wait to get their pay slip and go home. There is no passion, but it's this passion that distinguishes the people who cost companies money and that those that really make a difference. Those who can't wait to get home aren't enjoying it either, which is a terrible shame.

If you are a 2nd level student, I suggest that you aim to go to college and earn that degree. In the mean time get involved in your own/open source projects online. Never stop asking questions. I say it is technically possible to get a start in this industry without a degree but it is nearly impossible, especially in the current climate, because you will find it very hard to get a chance to prove yourself.

Best of luck

Sparks

bobbytables wrote: »

There is no passion, but it's this passion that distinguishes the people who cost companies money and that those that really make a difference.

Argh. Not that chestnut again. To claim that passion is the defining attribute of a good programmer is patently wrong. Give me professionalism over passion any day of the week, thanks.

docdolittle

Trekmad wrote: »

I just wanted to ask the the question "Do I need a degree?" to make it in the development world. A wise man once told me that a degree only gets you to the interview, but can you make it by self study and doing either short courses or on-line certifications which is what I am trying to do at the moment? Or should I just pack my bags and commit 4 years + to college?

My overall ambition is to become a games developer :pac: .... and so would appreciate any input as I am trying to decide how to proceed.

Thanks

Will

4 Year!? Well... I'm in my second year of games design now... and that's all I planned... :pac:

Basically, if you are good at games develpment and can show you are good at what you do with all the self training, you stand a good chance. The only problem however is that if you want to move country to get a job, like the US or Australia, it is a lot easier with qualifiacations. If you just plan to take a job in the EU, you would stand equally against a degree student, as with these types of jobs, it mainly depends on your portfolio.

ronivek

A better set of questions you might want to ask yourself are;

1) What kind of company would I like to work for?
2) What are some of the companies who fit those requirements or could I see myself working for?
3) Do they have any job postings up; what are their minimum requirements for the various positions?

The first issue you'll have with no degree is getting past the Human Resources filtering in whatever company you want to work for.

The second issue is demonstrating equivalent experience in your CV such that if it does get through the HR filter that the technical reviewer will see enough there to be happy that you could compete with those who might have your passion and skillset but ALSO have a formal degree.

The third issue especially in terms of game design is that it's quite an attractive niche role and you'll find plenty of guys who have spent the best part of their formitive years playing around with all sorts of technologies related to games development; and a fair few of those may have degrees.

What is your current situation out of interest? Leaving certificate student? Do you have some other degree which might transfer into an MSc.?

-Trek-

Thanks for the feed back.
My current situation is I am in the middle of a career change having come from an engineering background. Programming is something I have come to love especially getting stuck into a problem and surfacing hours later with the solution, I have never felt so passionate about something before. So I think I am in for the long haul.

So from reading the replies it seems fairly obvious that you need that degree to get you the interview, can't say I'm so surprised.

Good bye life savings

bobbytables

Sparks wrote: »

Argh. Not that chestnut again. To claim that passion is the defining attribute of a good programmer is patently wrong. Give me professionalism over passion any day of the week, thanks.

Interesting article, thanks for that (sincerely). However I think my opinion regarding what constitutes a successful candidate in the industry still stands, despite the fact that my use of words such as "passionate" have raised alarms.

As opposed to relying solely on theory, from my experience I have acknowledged a pattern amongst the people who produce the best results. Yes they are professional, but professional doesn't have to drag (his/her)self in to the office each morning, something else brings them in. Their motivation is their passion. By all means, they wouldn't be there if they were not being paid, but there are many professional and unemployed IT people at home right now, who are probably investing as much of their time in front of a computer as those who are being paid. The only difference is, who the work is being done for.

There are plenty of people who work in IT, spent years in college and enjoy it. They enjoy it, but not as much as some of their colleagues. They wouldn't give up a Saturday night to catch up a hobby project using cutting edge technologies, for example. I'm not saying that all professionals need to do this, but it helps the 'ol head if you're happy/enthusiastic/self-motivated whilst being professional.

Sorry OP if we're getting off topic, I just wanted to clarify my stance in this regard.

Trojan

Sun Microsystems (*cries*) had a policy of hiring people with the relevant skills plus any degree (even e.g. a degree in Music).

I think the logic is that if you're able to get yourself through 4 years of college, you've displayed certain abilities already.

RedXIV

I'd suggest working on a portfolio first and foremost. Thats probably the best benefit of college, getting the chance to build up a portfolio of work.

We recently hired an artist for a game purely based on what was in his portfolio.

The degree is handy but a portfolio is very much a deciding factor

InReality

Do you have an eng Degree ? Then you don't need an IT one as well.

Evil Phil

If you've a background in engineering then I suppose you could say that you're simply changing disciplines, not careers. If you have engineering qualifications, especially a degree, then you may be able to do a *cross-over* graduate diploma or Masters. I know DCU have a 1 year course full time and the OU offer something similar.

I suppose it depends on the level you'll be working at but personally I won't be hiring anybody who doesn't have either a degree CS or CEng. Failing that any degree and post-grad qualification in CS or CEng.

Having that qualification means that you can:

1. Commit to achieving something difficult in a specific time frame.
2. Can get out of bed, show up, and be there as required.
3. Have received training in what I need you to do. I don't want to have to train people how to do it, just how I need it done.
4. You know how to learn, that's far more important in software development than passion in my opinion. You'll continue to learn for the rest your career.
5. You can formulate your ideas and opinions and put them forward.
6. You can ask a question, you don't get educated without that ability. "How does this work?" is a vital question to ask over and over again when working with a new team and code base. Thinking this reflects poorly on you is going down the wrong path.

In my last years of contracting I saw a great team have great work severely damaged by one bad apple coming onto the team. The bad apple in question was self-trained with no formal education, and while they were a good person who worked hard they really shouldn't have been in a position where they could do that. Specifically they lacked skills that the rest of us had learned back in college. That's not a generalization btw, but it's an experience that's made me wary.

When I started 15 years ago I worked with people who where good at their jobs but didn't have qualifications, like me. However the majority of us were working towards degrees in our spare time. Being 'Self-Trained' is somewhat of a badge of honour in our industry, as is working a 24 hour day. It simply shouldn't be.

Now in 2010 I feel that I.T. in general and software development in particular needs a professional image, akin to that of engineering or architecture. Organisations like the BCS are pushing their CPD and qualifications like C.I.T.P. in the U.K. for the same reason. They've a very active membership who are discussing things like bringing practical work experience into CS courses and how to improve the quality of the education received by people coming into our profession. I feel this is a very important and is an issue that in some way we should all be addressing as individuals and organisations.

techguy

bobbytables wrote: »

Traditionally....Yes!, Technically....No!
Best of luck

+1

I think you need a Degree so that you are respected in the workplace. It will go a long way when trying to progress your career etc.

If you ever have any disputes with management they will more than likely just turn to you and ask what qualifications you have..

Kidchameleon

Perhaps you could get a little project together and put up on Steam or Xbox Live Indie games?

Reku

Evil Phil wrote: »

I know DCU have a 1 year course full time.

Alas it doesn't seem to count for much, and in terms of continuing on to do a masters only permits the M.Sc in IT as a progression, not any of the proper software ones. So if you didn't do the full degree you're probably going to have to do a lot of self study for certifications or create some impressive projects if you want to switch into software development.

oeb

In any position where I have been hiring, I have always been more interested in a persons skillset over what little pieces of paper they have.

I am a web developer now, but I have worked in applications development in the past. The longest I have been unemployed as a developer in the past 10 years is three weeks. I do not have a degree, I even failed my leaving cert (School did not interest me, programming did).

Short answer, no, if you are good enough you don't need a degree. It is useful for getting in the door though.

Sparks

oeb wrote: »

if you are good enough you don't need a degree.

Indeed; but it's a rare fish who has no degree and is good enough. And it's certainly not a badge of honour - many great programmers have not just primary but further degrees. The google founders are famous examples, but so's Torvalds and a dozen others.

Naikon

Evil Phil wrote: »

Now in 2010 I feel that I.T. in general and software development in particular needs a professional image, akin to that of engineering or architecture. Organisations like the BCS are pushing their CPD and qualifications like C.I.T.P. in the U.K. for the same reason. They've a very active membership who are discussing things like bringing practical work experience into CS courses and how to improve the quality of the education received by people coming into our profession. I feel this is a very important and is an issue that in some way we should all be addressing as individuals and organisations.

Maybe for a small set of software positions. Unless you are working
on kernel level code or mission critical stuff, it is a waste of time in
an industry that cannot really be organised professionally.

Onto the degree, it certainly looks favorable and proves to the employer
that you can jump through hoops where required. I am not advocating 24
hour stints in honour of "the passion" is a good thing, but you need some
interest outside of 9-5. The people that truly enjoy programming will
probably code on open source project in their spare time.

Being successful without alot of enthusiasm is akin to an entrepreneur not
really giving an idea his 100%. You need to be interested in development
in a larger capacity than simply "doing it for the money". People that do
it purely for monetary reasons will end up like the lads in Office Space.

No passion with no degree = write off
No passion with degree = not so good

Passion without degree = great, providing experience
Passion with degree = set, from a HR and personal perspective

Sparks

Naikon wrote: »

Maybe for a small set of software positions. Unless you are working on kernel level code or mission critical stuff, it is a waste of time in an industry that cannot really be organised professionally.

Find me a piece of code that's worth enough to pay someone to write, but which cannot affect someone's life in an adverse way and you'll have found me the only job an unprofessional programmer is good for. And you won't find too many pieces I'd imagine. Games programming, maybe - but what company will invest there without some sort of assurances anyway, being as risk averse as they are?

Seriously, we're probably living in the final days before someone drags in the lawyers to start suing software people for the damages caused by failures, and the response to that is classical - formalisation of the industry. It'll be fought, loudly, as it was every time it happened before, and it may take a few decades. But like what happened in civil engineering and electrical engineering and every other branch of technology where success improved lots of peoples lives and earned money; and more importantly, where failure killed people without warning; we'll wind up being a branch of engineering sooner or later, with the formal structures and certification that goes with it.

The people that truly enjoy programming will probably code on open source project in their spare time.

Or we'll spend time with our children or wives. Or we'll eat or sleep or wash. Or we'll take part in the other interests we have, because someone who has no interests outside of their job is not a person with a healthy mind (and is usually not as good as more balanced people at their job). This whole "I work from 9 to 5 and then I go home and do more coding!" schtick is great -- when you're in your teens and twenties. By the time you hit child-rearing age, it goes from being great to being a pretty unpleasant experience unless you naturally sleep only two hours a night.

That said, coding on an open source project is not a sign of being passionate either. I will (and do) budget time outside of work to do programming stuff (whether it's actual coding, or listening to podcasts during otherwise dead time, or reading professional development books/blogs/etc); but I'm being coldheartedly cynical and mercenary here, because it's how I do CPD (as the chartered engineer title isn't well recognised in Ireland for computer programming), and it's how I prepare for finding the next job after this one (even though I've no plans to leave, it's my responsibility to look to what happens after the contract runs out).

For example, Google looked interesting, so I went with Python instead of Ruby as a new language to learn (the fact that I turned out to really like Python is just a nice unexpected bonus. I didn't like PHP so much but I learned it for work, for a different example). And yes, I'm writing a nice touchscreen app for a tablet that integrates with a database-backed website (it's a program to help run the rifle club paperwork drudgery) -- but I'm not doing it because I'm compelled to program by some burning passion; I'm doing it because it makes finding the next job easier, it makes the next interview easier on me and the interviewers (because look, here's a sample of my code working in a real world solution for a few hundred clients and you can check what my coding style is like), and because I don't break any NDAs in the process. It's a pragmatic, professional decision, not a passionate one, even if the end result is the same.

(And it's also why Open Source is never going away - when the most mercenary thing you can do is to use Open Source, it's going to be around for quite a while...)

People that do it purely for monetary reasons will end up like the lads in Office Space.

Happy, safe and working in jobs they either love or can cope with, while getting the girl and leading healthy balanced lives?

Evil Phil

oeb wrote: »

Short answer, no, if you are good enough you don't need a degree. It is useful for getting in the door though.

Here's a simplified example.

1. 10 years experience, that's it. I work on open source project outside of office hours though. Coding is not just my job, it's my hobby too.
2. 10 years experience, after a BSc(hons) in Computer Science. CPD in the form of propriety certs (Microsoft, Java, Zend etc) plus now doing/thinking of doing a post grad in Software Development or Computer Forensics or something else relevant. Read Joel but prefer Scott Gu. I play 5-a-side on Wednesday nights with my mates and myself and my partner are training for a mini-marathon in aid of the hospice.

I can make a fairly good guess on who's going to be the better hire here.

I've been putting this argument forward for a couple of years now and here's some the usual responses I get.

The paper gets you in the door, that's it.
4 years resulting in a degree gives you a hell of a lot more than a sheet of paper. It gives you an education. Even if this were true, for the OP, it still highlights the need to get one.

A person's skill-set is more important that what little pieces of paper they have.
See my first point above, 4 years study resulting in a graduate of computer science is a person who already has an impressive skill-set. Things like being able to learn, being able to study effectively, being able to process abstract concepts, being able to take a project through to completion, being able to take your existing knowledge and us it to gain more (for example). All are vital skills in development, the paper proves you have that skillset too.

When it comes to getting the foot in the door, any kind of education is better than simply being a hobbyist. Once you're in the door that education is what makes doing your job possible, CPD is going to move your career along too. TBH dismissing a person's qualifications as just little pieces of paper is highly insulting to their abilities and their education. If we worked in civil engineering, architecture or even accountancy for that matter it would be serious no-no. Why is it more acceptable in our industry?

The industry can't be organised professionally.
Really? How come we have standards for HTML, SQL, C? Where did Agile, the Open Process and Model Driven Architecture come from? Yes it can be organised professionally. I don't think we need to become a protected profession like medicine as this will close the doors to people working in industry who, for instance, are working towards a degree at the same time, but it will help to keep out the cowboys (and we've all worked with at least one of them, possible for them).

I'm certainly not saying that a degree is mandatory for that first job. Loads of us got our foot in the door without it. I started in FAS, got a job as a tester, then did a diploma, got into development, and then a degree at night.

I haven't used a thing I learned on my degree.
Then what the hell did you do for 4 years? Yes, some of the modules I took aren't relevant to what I'm doing now, doesn't mean they aren't relevant to somebody else. Some of them are, I couldn't do my job without that knowledge.

Coding is this that and the other, it's not about passing an exam.
At least 60% of development isn't coding. And I suspect that teaching yourself that 60% isn't going to be nearly as effective as being taught that 60% in a lecture hall or class room. I suspect it because I see it all the time.

I don't understand why people of so vociferous against improving the educational standards of our industry. It improves our professionalism, it improves the standard of the work we produce, it improves our work/life balance. If you really are that good, then why don't you go and do a course? You could probably teach half of it.

Gambler

I've been working full time in IT since 95 the last 7-8 years purely doing software development and I have no degree (or leaving cert - started working full time in IT at 15).

While I have had no real problem getting work that's not always going to be the case and there have been a few times where my life would have been much easier if I'd just gotten the piece of paper that says I really can do what I say I can do.

My recommendation having done it without a degree is that if you can spare the time and cost to get a degree it will make the rest of your career much easier (and if you are good enough to not need the degree then it should be no problem getting it anyway..)