Salers, the ultimate suckler cow, opinions?

jfh

hi all, i was at gort mart last night, there was a guy selling 30 saler x and pure breed salers, there seemed great demand for them. don't know much about them.
they seemed a bit wiry? are they wilder than Limousins.
i saw a few saler X lim which seemed better than the char x. what would you cross a saler with?
Also the purebreds seemed small enough animals.

anyone here with salers and what are you opinions of them.
thanks

vanderbadger

would probably be great cows if you could get quiet ones, have a bad rep temperament wise, what kinda money were they making

jfh

yeah they looked a bit wild, wasn't sure if it was the in the breed.
saler x heifers calving in a month or 2 were making anything from 975 to 1500, purebreeds seemed a little cheaper. cow with saler calf at foot made 1250.

Red_Marauder

Those are good value for Saler Xs, provided the quality is there. Fantastic cows for a modern suckler operation when crossed with the likes of an Angus, nice low maintenance animals.

I wouldn't be too worried about the temperament... you might not be tickling their noses, but the bottom line is what counts. They also milk off their backs very well on lower quality feeds than you might get from our more familiar friends.

The ease of calving and their toughness might just mean you don't get to see your vet, but with all the free time on your hands with Salers I'm sure ye could could probably still meet up for a pint:pac:

They're not a miracle animal but they do make nice crosses for a modern efficient suckler operation

tismesoitis

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Those are good value for Saler Xs, provided the quality is there. Fantastic cows for a modern suckler operation when crossed with the likes of an Angus, nice low maintenance animals.

I wouldn't be too worried about the temperament... you might not be tickling their noses, but the bottom line is what counts. They also milk off their backs very well on lower quality feeds than you might get from our more familiar friends.

The ease of calving and their toughness might just mean you don't get to see your vet, but with all the free time on your hands with Salers I'm sure ye could could probably still meet up for a pint:pac:

They're not a miracle animal but they do make nice crosses for a modern efficient suckler operation

I agree the saler definatly has a place in a" modern efficient suckler operation" but in my opinion there is no place at all in a "modern efficient suckler operation" for angus!!! if the saler calves as easily as it is said it does then this trait should be used to its full advantage by calving truly efficient cattle such as belgian blue or charolais and certainly a continental breed.

irishh_bob

jfh wrote: »

hi all, i was at gort mart last night, there was a guy selling 30 saler x and pure breed salers, there seemed great demand for them. don't know much about them.
they seemed a bit wiry? are they wilder than Limousins.
i saw a few saler X lim which seemed better than the char x. what would you cross a saler with?
Also the purebreds seemed small enough animals.

anyone here with salers and what are you opinions of them.
thanks

i was savaged for claiming that salers were mad yokes and made limousins look like lambs by a few saler breeders some months ago but its a widley held view that they are indeed incredibly wild cattle

on the plus side , they have plenty of milk and due to thier pelvic structure , would calve an elephant , ideal for crossing with doube muscled chaorlais

Red_Marauder

agree the saler definatly has a place in a" modern efficient suckler operation" but in my opinion there is no place at all in a "modern efficient suckler operation" for angus!!! if the saler calves as easily as it is said it does then this trait should be used to its full advantage by calving truly efficient cattle such as belgian blue or charolais and certainly a continental breed.

Yeah that's a fair point I wouldn't disagree with you there at all, if you can cross a Belgian Blue with a Saler you've got a great animal, definitely to be encoruaged.

One small thing is that crossing the Saler with another continental is going to produce a slightly more demanding animal in terms of nutritional input than an Angus X which is a very cheap animal to run, and whose size is actually improved by the Saler.

Unfortunately most Irish suckler herds aren't over run with double muscled giants and if a farmer does have a herd of Angus type animals or similar, a Saler bull would be a huge improvement to his operation.

pakalasa

If the ICBF figures are anything to go by, then the Ultimate Suckler cow is the simmental. Milk, docility, early maturity, easy calving (direct & maternal), good weanlings & slaughter weights. All these traits have to be taking into account. ICBF do just that and while it is early days yet, the simmental does seem to be the one that is coming out on top. I know a lot of farmers are dismissive of these figures, but look at the dairying side and the EBI figures are well estabhlished by now.

Also , one other thing that these figures are showing is, there is a far greater variation within each breed than across the breeds.

The NCBC simmentals are not coming out great either, their milk and fertility figures are well down in the breed.

jfh

hi pakalasa, that's interesting that the simmental is coming out on top, got a few & can't complain, great cows, but they're big animals, wonder if the saler would be a more economical cow? i'm trying to build up a suckler herd, slowly and trying to decide what type of cows would suit best.

irishh_bob

jfh wrote: »

hi pakalasa, that's interesting that the simmental is coming out on top, got a few & can't complain, great cows, but they're big animals, wonder if the saler would be a more economical cow? i'm trying to build up a suckler herd, slowly and trying to decide what type of cows would suit best.

salers are every bit as large as a simental

Indubitable

Saler x blonde aquitaine suckler cows then bb or charolois calves

teaserbull

pakalasa wrote: »

If the ICBF figures are anything to go by, then the Ultimate Suckler cow is the simmental. Milk, docility, early maturity, easy calving (direct & maternal), good weanlings & slaughter weights. All these traits have to be taking into account. ICBF do just that and while it is early days yet, the simmental does seem to be the one that is coming out on top. I know a lot of farmers are dismissive of these figures, but look at the dairying side and the EBI figures are well estabhlished by now.

Also , one other thing that these figures are showing is, there is a far greater variation within each breed than across the breeds.

The NCBC simmentals are not coming out great either, their milk and fertility figures are well down in the breed.

Can't argue with the latest icbf figures

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/400374_269031483161473_100001638690913_757222_734616162_n.jpg

Bodacious

teaserbull wrote: »

pakalasa wrote: »

If the ICBF figures are anything to go by, then the Ultimate Suckler cow is the simmental. Milk, docility, early maturity, easy calving (direct & maternal), good weanlings & slaughter weights. All these traits have to be taking into account. ICBF do just that and while it is early days yet, the simmental does seem to be the one that is coming out on top. I know a lot of farmers are dismissive of these figures, but look at the dairying side and the EBI figures are well estabhlished by now.

Also , one other thing that these figures are showing is, there is a far greater variation within each breed than across the breeds.

The NCBC simmentals are not coming out great either, their milk and fertility figures are well down in the breed.

Can't argue with the latest icbf figures

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/400374_269031483161473_100001638690913_757222_734616162_n.jpg

Those figures are a bit biased maybe ! :-)

blue5000

teaserbull wrote: »

Can't argue with the latest icbf figures

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/400374_269031483161473_100001638690913_757222_734616162_n.jpg

Hmmmm I wonder why they left docility out:mad::mad:?

Poor Farmer in the hills

is there that much difference in any continental x cow if she is managed properly to calve normally at the correct time of year to benefit from a long grazing season in a rotational forward creep grazing system. i have a variety of breeds of cow AI'd to various breeds of bull depending on the cows age and all the calves end up much the same value except for an odd exceptional BB.

manjou

Had a few of them bought by accident over the years to fatten as bulls and could never get them past a 2 in flesh.hard to handle wilder than limos and was always glad to be rid of them.

towzer2010

teaserbull wrote: »

Can't argue with the latest icbf figures

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/400374_269031483161473_100001638690913_757222_734616162_n.jpg

Teaserbull, are you marketing Salers? You have 5 posts and all are about them.

Are you suggesting that the perception that Salers are wild is a misconception?

Are you also suggesting that if you have one and they are wild it is your own fault due to improper stockmanship?

gordon_gekko

if they were that good , they would have become more popular by now

Viewtodiefor

tismesoitis wrote: »

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Those are good value for Saler Xs, provided the quality is there. Fantastic cows for a modern suckler operation when crossed with the likes of an Angus, nice low maintenance animals.

I wouldn't be too worried about the temperament... you might not be tickling their noses, but the bottom line is what counts. They also milk off their backs very well on lower quality feeds than you might get from our more familiar friends.

The ease of calving and their toughness might just mean you don't get to see your vet, but with all the free time on your hands with Salers I'm sure ye could could probably still meet up for a pint:pac:

They're not a miracle animal but they do make nice crosses for a modern efficient suckler operation

I agree the saler definatly has a place in a" modern efficient suckler operation" but in my opinion there is no place at all in a "modern efficient suckler operation" for angus!!! if the saler calves as easily as it is said it does then this trait should be used to its full advantage by calving truly efficient cattle such as belgian blue or charolais and certainly a continental breed.

The best suckled cow for the last 6 years in the Kildalton suckled herd is an angus cow, she's beating all her rivals consistently year in year out. Salers might have some good advantages but to say angus have no place is a suckled herd is ridiculous if you ask me!

Juniorhurler

pakalasa wrote: »

If the ICBF figures are anything to go by, then the Ultimate Suckler cow is the simmental. Milk, docility, early maturity, easy calving (direct & maternal), good weanlings & slaughter weights. All these traits have to be taking into account. ICBF do just that and while it is early days yet, the simmental does seem to be the one that is coming out on top. I know a lot of farmers are dismissive of these figures, but look at the dairying side and the EBI figures are well estabhlished by now.

Also , one other thing that these figures are showing is, there is a far greater variation within each breed than across the breeds.

The NCBC simmentals are not coming out great either, their milk and fertility figures are well down in the breed.

I know that this is a small thing, but does anybody else find that Simmental cows feet need much more care and attention than other breeds? We have a few blondes bred off simmentals but most of them are off limousin and find the simmental cross ones to be much worse on the feet.

1chippy

No problem at all with sim x. had a bull a good few years back who threw a lot of trouble with the feet. he was a limo. we got rid of all his animals, the last one last winter. too much hassle pairing feet and taking cows out of slats and into paddocks when it doesnt suit.

bogman_bass

tismesoitis wrote: »

in my opinion there is no place at all in a "modern efficient suckler operation" for angus!!!

I dunno if I agree with that. If you look at the main ranching areas in the world, USA, Canada, Austrailia, Argentina, and to a lesser extent Scotland the main breeds are Angus and Hereford.

what Irish suckler systems lack is scale and as scale is achived then the advantages of a cow that can calve easily with enough milk to rear her calf cheaply from grass become more obvious

in our life time we will see the end of live exports, make no mistake about it. the city living animal rights crew are gaining ground. Denmark and Finland have already stated their opposition to it, The UK isnt bothered about it. only France and Ireland are exporting sizable amouts of live animals and only Ireland is shipping them across more than one border.

also we could well see eating quality coming into the equation at the factory such as the tenderness tests in Austrailia. the traditional breeds are at an advantage there

island of tighe

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

The best suckled cow for the last 6 years in the Kildalton suckled herd is an angus cow, she's beating all her rivals consistently year in year out. Salers might have some good advantages but to say angus have no place is a suckled herd is ridiculous if you ask me!

i call down there the odd time and can definately confirm there is no angus cow in kildalton herd.i had a saler cow at home for a while,she would go stone mad at calving time.i had to cull her over it

LivInt20

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056212709&page=95

05042012398.jpg

BBx September calf

Dam Saler

Sire STQ

308 kgs 06/04/12

jfh

seen as this tread is still alive, i'd give a bit of an update;
went off and bought a few sim and one saler, know one cannot tell a lot with one but she was dear & that was 2 years ago.
we cross them to a 5 star lim stock bull.

we have all Lim x cows, but every year our best calves are out of the sim cows. The Lims have more milk than them but the Sim calves turn out better after been weaned. maybe this is because they are xbreeds.
The cows(sim) aren't great on the feet though and would not be able for the slats for the winter so they're out in a paddock.

i only have 2 calves out of the saler, one a purebreed saler heifer and this years calf, a lim x bull, which looks very impressive so far. I know the perception of salers it that they are wild but i think she came from a quiet herd & so far she's very quiet & milky with good feet.

Fendt712

We bought 5 Saler cows last year. They brought ok calves to be fair but they're red mad. In the shed all winter and they're still the same size as when they came into the yard.

It's mostly limousins I have and the salers looked pitiful compared to them in the shed. I separated them and fed them more silage and nuts but it seems no matter how much I give them they still look starved.

Turned them out 3 weeks ago and the first thing they done was demolish the electric fence. I'll leave them to put on a small bit of condition for another week or two then they're going into the trailer and mart. Never again will a Saler set foot in this yard. I'd rather have 1 Limousin than 100 salers.

vanderbadger

Fendt712 wrote: »

We bought 5 Saler cows last year. They brought ok calves to be fair but they're red mad. In the shed all winter and they're still the same size as when they came into the yard.

It's mostly limousins I have and the salers looked pitiful compared to them in the shed. I separated them and fed them more silage and nuts but it seems no matter how much I give them they still look starved.

Turned them out 3 weeks ago and the first thing they done was demolish the electric fence. I'll leave them to put on a small bit of condition for another week or two then they're going into the trailer and mart. Never again will a Saler set foot in this yard. I'd rather have 1 Limousin than 100 salers.

a few mad cows like that will set the rest off, you've the right idea, get rid

BeeDI

I gave an AI, saler to a big square limmy, hoping to get heifer calf for breeding. Got a nice heifer calf, but even as just a week old calf was stone mad. But being a mad hoor myself I persevered with till time to put her in calf. Did everything possible in the meantime to calm her down, and thought I had done a good job.
Anyway, made a super looking heifer at bulling time.
AI man approached to do the business, the heifer went nuclear ballistic plain fukking mad. Stretched your man with a two legged kick. Jumped out of the crush. Into the yard. Over the gate.
Had herd test month later. Almost same ****, but not as bad. I managed to get her to the mart in the end, and by some miracle she behaved herself for the day.
That's it for me. No more salers.

pakalasa

Juniorhurler wrote: »

...find the simmental cross ones to be much worse on the feet.

I have a one simmental heifer due to calf next week. I noticed that her feet weren't the best either.

So folks, it looks like the limousins all the way. If you can get them quiet, you're laughing.........:D

Viewtodiefor

island of tighe wrote: »

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

The best suckled cow for the last 6 years in the Kildalton suckled herd is an angus cow, she's beating all her rivals consistently year in year out. Salers might have some good advantages but to say angus have no place is a suckled herd is ridiculous if you ask me!

i call down there the odd time and can definately confirm there is no angus cow in kildalton herd.i had a saler cow at home for a while,she would go stone mad at calving time.i had to cull her over it

Well you better get back down there again and look at the animals this time because she is definitely there!!! You could probably even chech it online! I'm 100 per cent on this one!

49801

changed bull this year from SA to LI.
mostly as it was the easiest/cheapist way to increase cow number quickly. cows have SI, CH HE influance mostly.

retaining the best of the SA hiefers and bulling to the new LI.
they are far from tame but so long as they produce a weaned calf without any problems i'll be happy.

mentioned on here before that we'd a bit of an accident with a sub 18mth old SA hiefer bagging up . had the vet to pull and it was a bit tough but they are flying it now:).

ask me in 12mths what I think:pac::pac:

jfh

the father bought an in calf Lim heifer 3 weeks ago in the mart, she calved that night, she seemed the quietest cow for about 2 days, then went crazy.

we have her locked into a pin in the slatted house trying to quieten her down a bit and get her used to us. she has quietened somebit but the head goes up in the air & she's pawing the ground if one trys to go near her.

The old man is suspicious that she was given an injection to calm her down in the mart, anyone ever come across this before.

vanderbadger

pakalasa wrote: »

I have a one simmental heifer due to calf next week. I noticed that her feet weren't the best either.

So folks, it looks like the limousins all the way. If you can get them quiet, you're laughing.........:D

have 2 simm cows, both have good feet but i want to get rid of both of them, they are huge cows and usually rear pretty good calves but just have too much milk, one of them I have to keep on straw to keep her udder clean and so I can manage her, let her calf and another strong calf in twice a day. if i let her back out with other cows her own calf will suck front quarters and wont bother with that back, pure nuisance, the other one has had her calf taken off her there a few weeks back, she seems to have picked up a bit of mastitis now :mad:..i know its great to have plenty of milk but give me a handier size cow with a bit less milk any day. the cow with mastitis is pure bred and i have one of her daughters as a cow now as well, she would be out of ch stock bull, smashing cow, has had 2 calved but already her feet are bad, she cant seem to stand up to winter on slats so maybe the bad feet come when you cross them

teaserbull

Case closed, milk, fertility, calving ease, shortest gestation, with LIVE CALVES (still no real market for big dead calves and margains tight for c-sections) with a reasonable finishing ability, and presented to all you take sbv's as gospel....



and 8 sa bulls (ones that didn't get sold as purebred bulls) averaging over 2,000 at 4.20 euro a kg, 6 u's and 2 rs last month....all as quiet as lambs...( two orange colour bulls are salers by stock bull off chxfr and simxfr cows) were on display as ploughing champs as weanlings with dams...

redzerologhlen

teaserbull wrote: »

Case closed, milk, fertility, calving ease, shortest gestation, with LIVE CALVES (still no real market for big dead calves) with a reasonable finishing ability, and presented to all you take sbv's as gospel....



and 8 bulls averaging over 2k, 6 u's and 2 rs last month....all as quiet as lambs...

Christ, Im sure there was never a dead saler calf born :rolleyes:

Good bulls in fairness though but I wouldnt say the case is closed or even close to it. Their biggest problem is their temperment regardless if they can do everything else so well because nobody wants a nutcase of a cow. The society keeps pushing pushing their good points but have failed to address the nail in their coffin that is their temperment problem. They would want to calve themselves because god forbid you would have to assist. Limousin breeders bred it out of their cattle and are now the number one breed in the country. Salers will have to do the same before the get anywhere in my opinion. Their is plenty of older threads here to suggest that SBV is a flawed figure and that to get a better understanding you have to look at the individual index's for each bull.

furandfeather

teaserbull wrote: »

Case closed, milk, fertility, calving ease, shortest gestation, with LIVE CALVES (still no real market for big dead calves and margains tight for c-sections) with a reasonable finishing ability, and presented to all you take sbv's as gospel....



and 8 sa bulls (ones that didn't get sold as purebred bulls) averaging over 2,000 at 4.20 euro a kg, 6 u's and 2 rs last month....all as quiet as lambs...( two orange colour bulls are salers by stock bull off chxfr and simxfr cows) were on display as ploughing champs as weanlings with dams...

If you look at that word in the top left corner. . . . AVERAGE!!!
Big deal, in fairness dont think many go out to buy an average bull.
Use the best bull possible too suit your farming system, simmentals are my choice salers are obviously yours but i wouldnt be professing about them beeing the ULTIMATE!

teaserbull

furandfeather wrote: »

If you look at that word in the top left corner. . . . AVERAGE!!!
Big deal, in fairness dont think many go out to buy an average bull.
Use the best bull possible too suit your farming system, simmentals are my choice salers are obviously yours but i wouldnt be professing about them beeing the ULTIMATE!

How else does one evaluate a breed?? only by taking the average animal?? no point in taking the best or worst in each breed and using that as what dictates how good they are...? possibly the best charls bull in the country...cottage devon has broken more cows around the country and c-sections this year....(i'd two salers cows that spat him out but anyway :-p)....so is he representative of the breed??

Btw furandfeather i'm also a simmi fan as a maternal breed!!!

just personally i find the salers more consistent when crossed, possibly a touch hardier and have a shade better quality milk (as we've sourced stock from herds being milked for cheese production on some of the highest farms in france, altitude wise, so they fat and protein is actually through rough)

teaserbull

redzerologhlen wrote: »

Christ, Im sure there was never a dead saler calf born :rolleyes:

Good bulls in fairness though but I wouldnt say the case is closed or even close to it. Their biggest problem is their temperment regardless if they can do everything else so well because nobody wants a nutcase of a cow. The society keeps pushing pushing their good points but have failed to address the nail in their coffin that is their temperment problem. They would want to calve themselves because god forbid you would have to assist. Limousin breeders bred it out of their cattle and are now the number one breed in the country. Salers will have to do the same before the get anywhere in my opinion. Their is plenty of older threads here to suggest that SBV is a flawed figure and that to get a better understanding you have to look at the individual index's for each bull.

Redzer, wild stock are of no addition to anyone! so believe what you want but few if any breeders are actively promoting the breeding of wild cattle! we'd only be fooling ourselves!

And you will agree that handling/stockmanship/good facilities does play a major factor in an animals temperment? and what the calf learns off the flighty/nervous cow??

any apparently wild calf, lim/saler whatever..if it was thrown in an raised with bucket reared calves (from a day or two old)...would act no differently to the rest! so the genetic component is limited (since being proven too) less that 10% heritability.

I'm not saying they are all quiet! just i'm maintaining they are no different to any other breed if handled well!

the french maintain they are the most intelligent breed? so maybe the are just nervous, or bad experiences leave them weary of some stockmen??

You can physically lay a hand, on many on my own weanlings and others I know with salers, not to mention the cows which won't even rise when sat on in the field!

teaserbull

furandfeather wrote: »

If you look at that word in the top left corner. . . . AVERAGE!!!
Big deal, in fairness dont think many go out to buy an average bull.
Use the best bull possible too suit your farming system, simmentals are my choice salers are obviously yours but i wouldnt be professing about them beeing the ULTIMATE!

It's the AVERAGE price got for your weanlings/finished stock that dictates your profits or loses.......

redzerologhlen

teaserbull wrote: »

Redzer, wild stock are of no addition to anyone! so believe what you want but few if any breeders are actively promoting the breeding of wild cattle! we'd only be fooling ourselves!

And you will agree that handling/stockmanship/good facilities does play a major factor in an animals temperment? and what the calf learns off the flighty/nervous cow??

any apparently wild calf, lim/saler whatever..if it was thrown in an raised with bucket reared calves (from a day or two old)...would act no differently to the rest! so the genetic component is limited (since being proven too) less that 10% heritability.

I'm not saying they are all quiet! just i'm maintaining they are no different to any other breed if handled well!

the french maintain they are the most intelligent breed? so maybe the are just nervous, or bad experiences leave them weary of some stockmen??

You can physically lay a hand, on many on my own weanlings and others I know with salers, not to mention the cows which won't even rise when sat on in the field!

I went through you posts and it turns out I have had this argument with you before and that every post you made has been plugging salers. I look at this for an unbiased point of view and I call it as I see it. The answer you gave me about bucket fed calves is completely irrelevant since they are a suckling breed. Blaming the stockmen is a cod too, Are you saying that only poor stockmen have salers? Its good that you can handle them in the field but I know a few people with different breeds that can do that with their cows but not their salers, why can they do it with their Charolais, Limousin, Simmental and other breeds but not Salers? Poor stockmen?? I will agree on the calf learning from the cow but the problem is their temperment issues seem to be spread across the whole cow base in Ireland rather than just a few nutcase's. 4 farmers in my parish have saler crossbred cows and they all say they are downright dangerous around calving. I only ever had one rio bull calf here and he was ok. Obviously the breeders are not actively promoting wild cattle. Instead the breeders are promoting quite cattle that farmers cant handle because they are too wild There is crossed wires there somewhere and it will be their downfall until the issue is addressed. Dont think I am dead against Salers either because I am not. I know a pedigree breeder very well with 40 of them that has one every show in the country with them and has a bull in A.I and they are some field of cows to look into but in the real world away from shows and pedigree breeding where they have to perform they have to be manageable otherwise they are never going to flourish here in Ireland. Also I am not basing my debate on peoples perceptions but rather peoples experiences that I have heard.

blue5000

I reckon the french guys did the exact same thing to irish breeders as they did with lims 20-30 yrs ago-got rid of all the mad ones;) Teaser how many saler cows do you own?

teaserbull

blue5000 wrote: »

I reckon the french guys did the exact same thing to irish breeders as they did with lims 20-30 yrs ago-got rid of all the mad ones;) Teaser how many saler cows do you own?

Haha possibly, or they could have told them to run wild in west clare in order to source fodder in short supply across the burren with redzolough haha thankfully they havn't been seen to do the same thing with regards giving us johnes as they did with the limms!

Around the 50 cow mark, 40 of which would be fullblood red, experiment on the last few xbred sa's with the dez's, byu's, ulh's and the odd maine anjou

pakalasa

You really do have to hand it to the Limousin Society. It does seem to be a very well run society, very democratic. A know a few of the lads that have been presidents. All sound guys. I think a lot of other breed societies could learn a lot from them. I saw a BB sales catalogue recently. I had all the ICBF figures, but left out the calving figures. Who are they trying to kid?
The same could be said for the Charolais society. The breeding maternal side of things are really bad and there aint too many easy calving Char bulls in AI.
As for the Salers. The ICBF figiures do say they are the wildest. Hard to argue with that.

So TEASERBULL as a Saler breeder maybe you could suggest a programme to cull the wildest 20% or so..:)

blue5000

Agree with you on the johnnes disease, came up at a discussion group where a lot of problems have been traced back to a lm bull. The blood test is only 20% accurate so if a bull is tested negative he can still have it, makes a joke of society sales having all bulls tested for it.....

No saler cattle here so can't really comment on how wild they are.

teaserbull

redzerologhlen wrote: »

I went through you posts and it turns out I have had this argument with you before and that every post you made has been plugging salers. I look at this for an unbiased point of view and I call it as I see it. The answer you gave me about bucket fed calves is completely irrelevant since they are a suckling breed. Blaming the stockmen is a cod too, Are you saying that only poor stockmen have salers? Its good that you can handle them in the field but I know a few people with different breeds that can do that with their cows but not their salers, why can they do it with their Charolais, Limousin, Simmental and other breeds but not Salers? Poor stockmen?? I will agree on the calf learning from the cow but the problem is their temperment issues seem to be spread across the whole cow base in Ireland rather than just a few nutcase's. 4 farmers in my parish have saler crossbred cows and they all say they are downright dangerous around calving. I only ever had one rio bull calf here and he was ok. Obviously the breeders are not actively promoting wild cattle. Instead the breeders are promoting quite cattle that farmers cant handle because they are too wild There is crossed wires there somewhere and it will be their downfall until the issue is addressed. Dont think I am dead against Salers either because I am not. I know a pedigree breeder very well with 40 of them that has one every show in the country with them and has a bull in A.I and they are some field of cows to look into but in the real world away from shows and pedigree breeding where they have to perform they have to be manageable otherwise they are never going to flourish here in Ireland. Also I am not basing my debate on peoples perceptions but rather peoples experiences that I have heard.

Redz 4 people in your parish does not equate into the 16000 calves sired by salers bulls in this country anually, there are more salers in west clare then there is in anyother county!

The reference being made to raising a salers as a bucket reared, is to show how little influence genetics has on the grand scheme of things,

I've several bulls running as sweeper bulls in dairy herds and no issues with them! Delighted and there is no more difficult a man to please with a beef bull on a fresian! farmers are amazed to see how easy they are calved than hereford or angus and how short gestation they are, with the cows catching up on cows served a fortnight before them!

said stockmen would have equally as wild/nervous cattle, what ever the breed they would have! just as the salers are such low maintenance thats the cattle said men have ended up with!

Redz i think you may have more saler influence in a lot of your stock than you think just looking through pictures haha:)

Ah don't mind that, it's easy win every show in the country when there are only 2-3 cows in the class with an imported animal, and bulls can be "volunteered into ai" good bull he is all the same!

Bulls performances ie. in test stations would be more of an indicator with the top tully bull spring 2010 on lwg and conversion being a salers bull at 2.6 kgs dlwg (an unbiased control for you) trumped every charls, lim, blue, angus in there, phenomenal in hindsight.

teaserbull

pakalasa wrote: »

You really do have to hand it to the Limousin Society. It does seem to be a very well run society, very democratic. A know a few of the lads that have been presidents. All sound guys. I think a lot of other breed societies could learn a lot from them. I saw a BB sales catalogue recently. I had all the ICBF figures, but left out the calving figures. Who are they trying to kid?
The same could be said for the Charolais society. The breeding maternal side of things are really bad and there aint too many easy calving Char bulls in AI.
As for the Salers. The ICBF figiures do say they are the wildest. Hard to argue with that.

So TEASERBULL as a Saler breeder maybe you could suggest a programme to cull the wildest 20% or so..:)

I agree in some respects pakalasa, but in regards to the limousin society, It's an embarrassment really their tackling or creating of the massive johnes issue...(I know the dept of ag are guilty too) but there was no limitations on importing pedigree stock from herds riddled with johnes in france, there is still no real preventative measures in place for importation....(open to correction)

The policy at limmo bull sales is ridiculous that only the dam of said bull and bull itself should be johnes free.....as the poor reliability of the diagnostics, the intermittant shedding/appearance of positives, at a minimum it should be the whole herd should be johnes tested negative on 2 year interval....but such a measure could not be implemented as big breeders acted like bullies to prevent such advances! so " It does seem to be a very well run society, very democratic" goes out the window!

I agree with your suggestion regarding the salers society, but it appears that most pedigree breeders do comply with retaining docile stock! the independent linear scorers have little issues whatsover! and have been told to extra vigilent regarding docility!

Personally and amougst others, ie. high proportion of commercial saler herds they honestly don't percieve them as being any better or worse than other breeds docility wise! there are some massive 2-300 saler suckler herds in uk who really do regard them as success stories over there, for all the salers characteristics!

redzerologhlen

teaserbull wrote: »

Haha possibly, or they could have told them to run wild in west clare in order to source fodder in short supply across the burren with redzolough haha thankfully they havn't been seen to do the same thing with regards giving us johnes as they did with the limms!

Around the 50 cow mark, 40 of which would be fullblood red, experiment on the last few xbred sa's with the dez's, byu's, ulh's and the odd maine anjou

No need for fodder around here, we might be a lot more fortunate then the saler farmers in west clare with the 6 month winters!!

teaserbull wrote: »

Redz 4 people in your parish does not equate into the 16000 calves sired by salers bulls in this country anually, there are more salers in west clare then there is in anyother county!

I agree 4 is not very but none of them could say anything positive about their temperment.

The reference being made to raising a salers as a bucket reared, is to show how little influence genetics has on the grand scheme of things.

Yes, I later agreed it was most likely what they had learned from the cow, would you suggest bucket feeding their calves to increase docility?

I've several bulls running as sweeper bulls in dairy herds and no issues with them! Delighted and there is no more difficult a man to please with a beef bull on a fresian! farmers are amazed to see how easy they are calved than hereford or angus and how short gestation they are, with the cows catching up on cows served a fortnight before them!

I know all the good points and wont dispute them. Maybe breeding for docility is higher on your agenda but not so much on others.

said stockmen would have equally as wild/nervous cattle, what ever the breed they would have! just as the salers are such low maintenance thats the cattle said men have ended up with!

No yet again you have missed the point I am trying to make here. Said stockmen have very quiet charolais and limousin cows but mad salers....

Redz i think you may have more saler influence in a lot of your stock than you think just looking through pictures haha:)

You are confusing salers with shorthorn blood I am afraid.

Ah don't mind that, it's easy win every show in the country when there are only 2-3 cows in the class with an imported animal, and bulls can be "volunteered into ai" good bull he is all the same!

I would have thought that most Salers were imported live into the country with maybe some embryos, Maybe he imported the best one????

Bulls performances ie. in test stations would be more of an indicator with the top tully bull spring 2010 on lwg and conversion being a salers bull at 2.6 kgs dlwg (an unbiased control for you) trumped every charls, lim, blue, angus in there, phenomenal in hindsight.

Yet again I wasnt arguing their good points even though all those kilos might not be in the right places.

teaserbull

redzerologhlen wrote: »

No need for fodder around here, we might be a lot more fortunate then the saler farmers in west clare with the 6 month winters!!

Redz i've the perfect new salers stockbull here for you, shape, length, and ya can curry comb him in the field! guaranteed lovely quiet progeny, seeing that is your only issue with them!

how's the blonde bull working on the shorthorn/red sims? I've two by Agha Khan in eurogene, a bull and a heifer off sax heifers and i'm a shade disappointed, maybe it's just i think they should resemble charls more....

redzerologhlen

teaserbull wrote: »

Redz i've the perfect new salers stockbull here for you, shape, length, and ya can curry comb him in the field! guaranteed lovely quiet progeny, seeing that is your only issue with them!

Id have to go to the clare man for the limestone stock if thats the road I was going;)

how's the blonde bull working on the shorthorn/red sims? I've two by Agha Khan in eurogene, a bull and a heifer off sax heifers and i'm a shade disappointed, maybe it's just i think they should resemble charls more....

I dont know what way hes going to work to be honest but I thought he would cross well with them, He doesnt look great in the picture but the lad that owns him had him starved for the winter, was a serious looking bull last summer. The most of them are actually out of sim cows but there is a bit of shorthorn somewhere in a lot of them and buckets of milk too I hope. A charolais is the best cross for a saler I think, Thats what all the lads I know give them and the calves do be good.

rocky bilboa

Christ, just bought six saler store bullocks today to go on an out farm beside a town where quiet cattle is a must, then l read this thread oh happy days:eek:

Bizzum

How long are Salers in Ireland?