Selection of Mods

DeVore

This is why we dont do popularity polls for modship. Its not a gong to be won. Its bloody hard work and more and more we are finding that it takes a special kind of person, especially in the big forums.

We have also seen people who we like having around who we would NEVER make mod (*waves at pighead*). Its not a authentication of your value as a user. Its not the next step in an online career


This process was short-circuited twice. Firstly, there shouldnt have been a "poll" because then there is a public expectation and consequently disappointment when it doesnt happen. Secondly the CMod should have checked with the Admins rather then have pressed forward.

Yes we take Mod and Cmod recommendations to heart, and more often then not they pass but by bypassing the admins, they have done to the admins exactly what you decry.... ie:not taking their opinion on board and they see further then the local forums remember!
In the end of the day, its the admins who have to deal with the person and who have to clean up any situations arising.


Its exactly this sort of transparency in process and having it written down that FeedForward will be about and ironically, I would be happy to have MNIU in that mix giving his opinion of how Boards works and should work.



I'm sorry all of this has been washed in public, it shouldnt have been but there you are. If its any consolation 3 of my four best mates have been rejected as mods over the years because they would either hate it , or they would be awful.


DeV.

ibarelycare

Splinter wrote: »

I don't know if I'm the only one, but i really don't believe the admins did anything wrong here. At the end of the day, its their decision at the end of the day as they are the people that ultimatley keep this site running.

From what I have read, URL was approached and asked "if" he would be interested if the posistion was put forward to him. It wasn't a "listen, we are gona take you as mod". The Mods and CMods of AH put forward their recommendations of who they think should be considered and the admins make a choice. Maybe a curtosey email should have been sent, but if only by the person that approached URL in the first place. I'm sure there is plenty of others who were thought of as well and possibly asked and yet i don't see any posts by them here.

As it stands, i think the admins made good strong choices and if anything, your reaction here, URL, shows that they made the right choice in not giving you mod status.

+1

I like Url as a poster and I thought he would've been a good AH mod, I actually voted for him in that poll...but I don't think there's any need for toys to be thrown out of prams.

People seem to be looking for any excuse to blame the admins for anything at the moment. I think the person most at fault (and I use that term loosely) here is the mod who asked Url if he would like to be mod and then didn't communicate properly after that.

Ponster

My name is URL wrote: »

Only in some cases I guess

True. You see it depends on how specialised the forum is and if it's the type of forum that needs mod-input to make it bigger and more active or a forum that runs by itself but needs a mod just to keep an eye on it.

I think that Television Documentaries forum is more of the latter.

Should a member suggest a new forum entitled "BMX bikes" and shown in the generic "Bikes" forum that there were a bit of a BMX-expert then I would hope that the admins would consider them for a mod position.

IvySlayer

Thaedydal wrote: »

IvySlayer you and I can't know the full extent and range of interactions the admins have with any mod.

The admins were made admins because they could make such calls and discriminate for the good of the site as a whole.

That is true. Admins do make the decision. It's feedback.

I don't like the way URL was treated. It could of been avoided easily with a simple reply.

A reply the Admins still haven't responded to clearly.

IITYWYBMAD

IvySlayer wrote: »

That is true. Admins do make the decision. It's feedback.

I don't like the way URL was treated. It could of been avoided easily with a simple reply.

A reply the Admins still haven't responded to clearly.

I agree. I think the main point in MNIU's op is this "Could an Admin not have contacted me directly to inform me what the issues were about making me Mod?". A bit of decent communication would have averted this thread/issue imo.

The Recliner

IvySlayer wrote: »

That is true. Admins do make the decision. It's feedback.

I don't like the way URL was treated. It could of been avoided easily with a simple reply.

A reply the Admins still haven't responded to clearly.

Ehm DeVore is an Admin and I think his response is fairly clear on the matter

themadchef

I dont think a mod should have permission to PM other mods asking "would you like to mod this forum".

As a regular poster if i got that PM i'd have thought it was in the bag too.

Can yee not throw a little sticky in the mod forum asking mods not to sound out potential candidates, and leave it to the admins please. Would save alot of confusion imo.

My name is URL

DeVore wrote: »

This is why we dont do popularity polls for modship. Its not a gong to be won. Its bloody hard work and more and more we are finding that it takes a special kind of person, especially in the big forums.

We have also seen people who we like having around who we would NEVER make mod (*waves at pighead*). Its not a authentication of your value as a user. Its not the next step in an online career


This process was short-circuited twice. Firstly, there shouldnt have been a "poll" because then there is a public expectation and consequently disappointment when it doesnt happen. Secondly the CMod should have checked with the Admins rather then have pressed forward.

Yes we take Mod and Cmod recommendations to heart, and more often then not they pass but by bypassing the admins, they have done to the admins exactly what you decry.... ie:not taking their opinion on board and they see further then the local forums remember!
In the end of the day, its the admins who have to deal with the person and who have to clean up any situations arising.


Its exactly this sort of transparency in process and having it written down that FeedForward will be about and ironically, I would be happy to have MNIU in that mix giving his opinion of how Boards works and should work.



I'm sorry all of this has been washed in public, it shouldnt have been but there you are. If its any consolation 3 of my four best mates have been rejected as mods over the years because they would either hate it , or they would be awful.


DeV.

Fair enough, and thanks.

Fwiw, I wouldn't expect a popularity poll to be a basis for selecting a mod, at all.. it's a terrible idea.

The reasons given to me by Dav were fair reasons, I just felt that positive aspects were overlooked in favor of, what seem on the surface, to be negative ones.

I'm not throwing my toys out of the pram tbh, I genuinely think that this whole thing was handled badly and deserved to be addressed

Ponster

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

I agree. I think the main point in MNIU's op is this "Could an Admin not have contacted me directly to inform me what the issues were about making me Mod?". A bit of decent communication would have averted this thread/issue imo.

And the answer to that would have been simply "No". There should be no onus on explaining to someone why they haven't been chosen as a mod. In most cases (in my experience at least) the member is contacted after the admins have decided, not before.

Nevyn

IvySlayer wrote: »

That is true. Admins do make the decision. It's feedback.

I don't like the way URL was treated. It could of been avoided easily with a simple reply.

A reply the Admins still haven't responded to clearly.

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

I agree. I think the main point in MNIU's op is this "Could an Admin not have contacted me directly to inform me what the issues were about making me Mod?". A bit of decent communication would have averted this thread/issue imo.

URL already said Dav who is community manager and one of the admins had already pmed him and gave him a response on the matter.

URL just wasn't happy with the reasons he was given and seemed to think he was a shoe in due to what ever impression he was given by whom ever contacted him.

Yes there was a communication/procedure screw up but I don't think it was the admins.

IITYWYBMAD

Ponster wrote: »

And the answer to that would have been simply "No". There should be no onus on explaining to someone why they haven't been chosen as a mod. In most cases (in my experience at least) the member is contacted after the admins have decided, not before.

The answer to what, exactly?

My point was directed at one of the Admins or CM's btw, as was the part of the op I quoted.

IITYWYBMAD

Thaedydal wrote: »

URL already said Dav who is community manager and one of the admins
had already pmed him and gave him a response on the matter.

URL just wasn't happy with the reasons he was given and seemed to think the was a shoe in due to what ever impression he was given by whom ever contacted him.

Yes there was a communication/proceedure screw up but I don't think it was the admins.

I agree, and I don't know who was actually "at fault" here, as I have no real idea of the sequence of events or the content of PM's. My point is/was the MNIU seemed to have an issue with the "generic" reason(s) he was given, and that based on what he said in his op, a little bit of a broader explanation would probably have meant that this thread would not have seen the light of day.

Nevyn

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

I agree, and I don't know who was actually "at fault" here, as I have no real idea of the sequence of events or the content of PM's. My point is/was the MNIU seemed to have an issue with the "generic" reason(s) he was given, and that based on what he said in his op, a little bit of a broader explanation would probably have meant that this thread would not have seen the light of day.

Well then why didn't he pm Dav back and ask?

Ponster

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

The answer to what, exactly?

My point was directed at one of the Admins or CM's btw, as was the part of the op I quoted.

I'm getting confused now...I think I need a break from this thread

I was referring to what Thaedydal said. URL was contacted by an Admin with the "issues". I meant that IMO they shouldn't then have to defend those "issues" if challenged.

pickarooney

At the current rate of turnover, there'll eventually be nobody left who hasn't been an AH mod, so URL you should just sit tight until the day comes when the throne is vacated for you. It's a bit like being the sub-goalie who has to take a peno in a sudden death but when that moment comes (after Pighead, face_kicker and Turd Ferguson III have had their days in the sun) you kick that ball, son and you kick it good. Or place it out of the keeper's reach, that one's good too.

OutlawPete

6th wrote: »

I never saw the poll or the thread with it .... did I get a mention?

Just meself and Funk_You gave you the thumbs up

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64070839&postcount=141

IITYWYBMAD

Ponster wrote: »

I'm getting confused now...I think I need a break from this thread

I was referring to what Thaedydal said. URL was contacted by an Admin with the "issues". I meant that IMO they shouldn't then have to defend those "issues" if challenged.

NP..any more confusion and we'll have to look at de-modding you :-}.

I don't think anybody challenged anybody, but as I have said, I'm in no position to know!!

Splinter

Thaedydal wrote: »

Well then why didn't he pm Dav back and ask?

Exactly,

URL, you know how well this place works. You tend to be fairly active in Feedback, and yet instead of actually replying to Dav and asking him, you choose to go through this side and create a shooting match at the admins, thats childish and imo it's fighting for a public vote to back you up. I wonder who else was approached for mod status,didnt recieve it and yet, isn't posting in FB complaining? (I don't want anyone named, just thinking out loud really)

6th

OutlawPete wrote: »

Just meself and Funk_You gave you the thumbs up

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64070839&postcount=141

You're in the circle now.

IITYWYBMAD

Thaedydal wrote: »

Well then why didn't he pm Dav back and ask?

IITYWYBMAD wrote:

I have no real idea of the sequence of events or the content of PM's

I don't know if he did or did not. Do you?

Nevyn

Well hopefully he will tell us.

TheZohanS

pickarooney wrote: »

At the current rate of turnover, there'll eventually be nobody left who hasn't been an AH mod, so URL you should just sit tight until the day comes when the throne is vacated for you. It's a bit like being the sub-goalie who has to take a peno in a sudden death but when that moment comes (after Pighead, face_kicker and Turd Ferguson III have had their days in the sun) you kick that ball, son and you kick it good. Or place it out of the keeper's reach, that one's good too.

Being put forward by the mod team does not guarantee that a poster will be put forward again, a lot will depend on a posters attitude and how they handle themselves.

We also have a fine bunch of posters over in After Hours that are maturing and in time they would make great mods too.

Wibbs

Thaedydal wrote: »

Yes there was a communication/proceedure screw up but I don't think it was the admins.

I'd agree. AFAIK and Im defo open to correction currently the procedure is, forum co mods bash it out, then it goes to cmods/admins they say yay or nay and then the cmod approaches the person in question?

The only part of that procedure I would be a little meh about is that IMHO one of the co mods of the forum rather than a cmod should make the approach. Someone the person may "know" on a daily posting basis. Back in the day when I was made a mod of PI, that's how it seemed to go(though then it was a little more fluid and there was an smod as a PI comod anyway). I would have found it weird to be approached by a mod I didnt know. As the site gets bigger and more fractured that may be more of a thing too?

Now I was sounded out to see if Id want to try(wasnt too sure at the time actually and my lack of eagerness may have been a plus point ), but I think I was the only name in the hat at that stage and if Id said feck off then it would have been on to the next candidate. As for previous conduct, well I was banned from a forum and AFAIR also picked up a warning or two in PI itself. Would I be passed by some today? Maybe, maybe not, but things have moved on since then too.

TL;DR I think its bad practice to ask someone unless agreement has been reached first. If I had been approached back then like My name is URL and said yes and then felt I got the bums rush I'm sure I would have been a little WTF? unfortunately just crossed wires communications wise.

Buford T Justice

Splinter wrote: »

As it stands, i think the admins made good strong choices and if anything, your reaction here, URL, shows that they made the right choice in not giving you mod status.

Why is that, because URL had a grievance and used feedback to air it? are you then suggesting that in order to be a mod you should sit quiet and never question anything?
Also, like someone has mentiond before, posting a thread in feedback is then going to be used against you. Sounds to me like that's what you are doing here

Splinter wrote: »

Exactly,

URL, you know how well this place works. You tend to be fairly active in Feedback, and yet instead of actually replying to Dav and asking him, you choose to go through this side and create a shooting match at the admins, thats childish and imo it's fighting for a public vote to back you up. I wonder who else was approached for mod status,didnt recieve it and yet, isn't posting in FB complaining? (I don't want anyone named, just thinking out loud really)

The whole point is that URL shouldn't have had to pm dav in the first place. When he did get an answer he wasn't satisfied with it and so used a thread in Feedback. Isn't this site supposed to be about transparency?

My name is URL

Splinter wrote: »

Exactly,

URL, you know how well this place works. You tend to be fairly active in Feedback, and yet instead of actually replying to Dav and asking him, you choose to go through this side and create a shooting match at the admins, thats childish and imo it's fighting for a public vote to back you up. I wonder who else was approached for mod status,didnt recieve it and yet, isn't posting in FB complaining? (I don't want anyone named, just thinking out loud really)

How is it being childish? Is Feedback not supposed to be used for issues like this?

It wasn't meant as a shooting match at all, though I can see why you might think that.

Anybody is free to create a FB thread about something they feel is important.. just because others may have chosen not to, doesn't lessen the fact that I felt it was important

OutlawPete

DeVore wrote: »

Its bloody hard work and more and more we are finding that it takes a special kind of person, especially in the big forums..

No doubt but I still don't see why URL was overlooked.

So, some member of Admin didn't appreciate one or two of his posts over the years.

Seems very harsh indeed to then overlook the fact that he was put forward by current MODs.

I'm sure the three new MODs will all do a fine job and this is no comment on their modding abilities, but..

Why would Admin choose three Mods who are not very very regular posters to AH?

Surely it means that the new MODs now have to change their Boards viewing habits.

Wouldn't it make more sense to MOD posters who are going to be on AH anyway, whether they MOD it or not?

dr.bollocko

seamus wrote: »

I wasn't commented on your case specifically, I don't know the details, just outlining the usual reasons why such a request is turned down.

Yes it can be hard to determine who will and will not make a good mod, and mistakes have been made (both in appointing and not appointing) in the past. It's something of an unknown quantity, and sometimes a gut feeling will swing it either way for someone.

It's generally the case that where there's any doubt whatsoever, it'll be turned down. It's much harder to remove a modship from someone once you've given it to them, so the admins have to do their best to avoid making the wrong choice in the first place.

After Hours and some of the other forums (such as Soccer) are also given special consideration in that they're the "welcome lobby" for new people and are insanely busy. I would have always done my utmost to appoint existing mods to positions in AH because I was sure they could handle it.

I was a new mod who started in AH. Javaboy new mod started in AH. Terry new mod started in AH. Umm, lemme see, current mods..... Sharpshooter, TheZohan both new and started in AH. Frada was new before AH. AH has never ever been one to always look for old hands to mod the place because a mod is needed who understands the forum first. It's not like moderating anywhere else. I am sorry if that sounds a bit, you know, elitist, but I've been knocking about from forum to forum and AH is just a different animal. Similar to soccer and politics maybe. I've never had the pleasure of moderating either. This community likes to promote from within and show clearly to posters that they DO have a say in how things work and are run. Posters are asked for input periodically. And OK, jokey poll but we have done this in the past, looking for reasonable nominations for moderators and they have worked in the past. Now to say well AC shouldn't have contacted URL is not really addressing the problem because the problem still stands that a community and its moderators all decided this was the best choice.

I had a long post somewhere I can't lay my hands on as to my colourful history before being made a moderator of AH. My bans were pre-storage of this stuff but I was banned from PI, Animal and pet issues and elsewhere. Also a number of infractions for a number of retarded things. But I grew as a poster (hopefully) into somebody (hopefully) capable to moderate the place. Now if the admins had had the option of looking at my record / ban history I would have been refused (most likely) the option of being made a moderator due to youthful transgressions made years earlier. That's a BS system and flies in the face of old school tid-bits like "Mod the post, not the poster."

Now as for the concern of moderators considering the whole site vs. considering the community of the forum they moderate on, I don't think this is necessarily a truism any more. Boards has long been a number of disparate communities which have some cross-over by virtue of being under the same banner of "boards.ie" but have wholly different communities with entirely different posting styles, regular posters and interests.
Look for virtually every 2nd charter's reference to something like "This is not after Hours" for examples of the reality of the different styles of posting which already co-exist on boards. Similarly Poker, disparate thriving community. Soccer similarly. Lots of separate communities reporting under the one banner. If you reasonably expect boards to grow you have to look to a certain level when it comes to choosing moderators for those forums and communities and to do what's best for this community than to look at the WHOLE community of boards.ie which is entirely outside the remit of a moderator in any case.
Moderators are posters on forums they don't moderate. We see that trotted out a lot. So if they are treated as such on forums they don't moderate why should they be held accountable for perceived bad behaviour on forums they don't aspire to moderate? Young URL made a few boo-boos and had a few bans. Most of us on here have done that from time to time. Certainly most of us AH regulars would have a ban or two.
Also if boards wishes to grow exponentially the whole community is going to have to be broken down eventually into the reality of a number of separate communities with some cross-overs and a small community of cross forum posters. To look at it as a whole is just obscuring the way forward.
Again not speaking about the specifics but when posters, moderators, c-moderators right the way up that KNOW the community want something to happen, some pretty good reasons as to why it shouldn't happen should be needed.
Now we're looking at the autopsy of this unfortunate situation. People saying Zohan's thread was a bad idea.
No it wasn't.
AH needed more mods, lets see who's interested and has their head screwed on.
AC should have gotten permission from the admins before asking URL?
Not really.
The job's a tough one. You pm the poster, see if they're interested. Particularly with a good posting history, having just organised the most successful AH beers in ages and showing he's not a mouth-breathing raving loon and in the absence of regular AH input from any of the admins the decision to say no to URL should have been communicated clearly to URL, at least the moderators of the forum, and now that we have this all blowing up in everyone's faces here to the posters of AH who didn't think that the poll was a joke and don't see why URL is now not a moderator.
To suggest that AC should have gotten permission from Admins first is not a true one either because at least PMing URL first indicates a want on the part of the community. If administrators kept this behind closed doors you have a c-mod considering a good prospect, asking about it in a PM, being refused for no reason and left scratching his head. None of that system is fair to the posters because it's just saying "Well, they don't need to know..."
Well it's the community that makes AH Moderation a worthwhile activity. And if they weren't there there'd be no worries about this whole thing. So in the context of AH and its community and the wishes of the majority of its regular posters, regardless of whether an admin or candidate is PM'd first, the community DO deserve to know, to some extent, what's going on behind the scenes.

Dav

Hey, it's all good here people!

URL was perfectly entitled to start this thread and I know I don't see it as being childish or silly and I would like it if people would stop feeling that way on my behalf

This particular decision's been made and I would hope URL himself is happy with the explanations.

DeVore's posted our process for picking a mod and our reasoning for it. To debate this further here and now won't get us anywhere.

This is however, one of the areas that the FeedForward forum may/will tackle - it would certainly be the appropriate place for it.

But for now can we say that this specific instance is put to bed and that the bigger issue of mod selection will most likely be up for analysis and review (or however it's going to work out) in the new Feed Forward forum when that kicks off.

Thanks everyone.

Dav

Wibbs

DeVore wrote: »

This is why we dont do popularity polls for modship. Its not a gong to be won. Its bloody hard work and more and more we are finding that it takes a special kind of person, especially in the big forums.

+1 and its harder work than it looks too. especially in the bigger forums and can take up a lot of your time and even get you too involved if you know what I mean. I started to care too much. There are times I have found it actual work, especially when we didnt have the coverage the PI mods have now.

Then again that was entirely my mistake as I went completely bloody overboard and kept up the longwinded posts in PI and did the modding stuff on top. Made a point of not losing the former because of the latter. Thats the main reason I originally put the mod stuff in bold. Not for clarity, though that was a by product, but more so otherwise I was just another poster. No better no worse.

Too often Ive seen great users make great mods, but slightly diminish themselves as users, people just having a natter in their community. I admired and admire those who do both well. Its why I admire people like Terry and Des among many others as they got that balance right. Personally the "I love my banhammer" forum distant types dont sit well with me anyway.

We have also seen people who we like having around who we would NEVER make mod (*waves at pighead*). Its not a authentication of your value as a user. Its not the next step in an online career

+1000 Of the people around here I personally like reading and get value from its 50/50 mods/users. And the pay's crap. You should see the state of the hookers and the coke is cut to hell with talc.

KoolKid

themadchef wrote: »

I dont think a mod should have permission to PM other mods asking "would you like to mod this forum".

Why not? Its only to find out if they are interested?
If you get asked would you like to win the lotto do you go out celebrating?
The existing mod(s) may see something in a person that would make them a good choice. Finding out if someone is interested is the logical first step.
The alternative is to take up CMod & Admins time looking into the user in question only to find they have no interest in the job.

themadchef wrote: »

As a regular poster if i got that PM i'd have thought it was in the bag too.

It would really depend on how it was worded. But getting a PM asking are you interested should not give the impression its in the bag!

themadchef wrote: »

Can yee not throw a little sticky in the mod forum asking mods not to sound out potential candidates, and leave it to the admins please. Would save alot of confusion imo.

I would imagine the Admins are busy enough. They are not going to know every user with mod potential. From recommendation supplied by existing mods & Cmods they can then choose from a short list. But to ask an admin to browse around a forums long history every time a mod is needed would be a waste of their valuable time.