Selection of Mods

AckwelFoley

Im sure it has been more than a little deflating to be knocked back like this URL. I think perhaps the Admins may communicate in private a reason(s) for not allowing the selection pass... however i would be sure not to take any reasons given "personal" as you know the old adage "Internet, serious business" - its a great site, its important to many people in many different ways, but its still internet.


Chin up son.

Steve

snyper wrote: »

Offended? Lol, Sorry steve.

LOL, every time I see your sig recently it's like WTF?

Otis Driftwood

I never thought being a mod was such a big deal,as far as I can see you end up setting yourself up for criticism and have every action picked over with a fine tooth comb and invariably will end up having people starting helpdesk threads and moaning about your decisions,particularly with AH.

In my humble you are better off without the headache URL.

Cunsiderthis

BackfromtheNed wrote: »

I never thought being a mod was such a big deal,as far as I can see you end up setting yourself up for criticism and have every action picked over with a fine tooth comb and invariably will end up having people starting helpdesk threads and moaning about your decisions,particularly with AH.

In my humble you are better off without the headache URL.

In fairness, it probably is a pretty thankless task. Having said that, some mode do assume the role of a school teacher with a class of naughty school children and end up ruining otherwise interesting threads by banning members using words. For example, one mod recently told me that he was didn't like me using the word ""smithereens (used to describe hurling a pc into a skip from quite a height), and when I used the word again, later in the thread, he gave me an infraction for using the word! Needless to say the thread has slid into ovlivion as many members there are put off by this mods over zealoous and unnecessarily heavy handed modding but infracing other members for their choice of words.

Asiaprod

Did you report it, you know we cannot be everywhere and we rely on stuff being reported

LoLth

@AlmightyCushion:
I'm sorry if you feel that your opinion is being ignored in these decisions. Of the requests you put in for mod placement, what percentage would you say are selected from outside the pool you suggest to the admins? It does happen that a cmods suggestion is not accepted, not often, but it does happen.

As for URL only being selected because of a popularity poll, I would guess that in this case the admins are talking to the many posts in this thread that quote the poll as a supporting reason for URL to have gotten the position.

@posters who think the poll result should stand as a reason for moderator selection

can we lay that to rest once and for all. Popular choice does not necessarily equal the right choice. when it does, its great but that is generally the exception and not the rule. It has been stated by URL in his initial post, it has been stated by AlmightyCushion and it has been said by the mods of Afterhours that the POLL WAS NOT A SERIOUS ATTEMPT TO SELECT A NEW MODERATOR.

@ amadeus:

I've been a mod on boards.ie since.. well, boards.ie. I have never selected my own co-mod and had it approved automatically. It always had to be approved by someone else.

I have been a cmod of the Arts category since, well, since there was an Arts category essentially (or shortly after it was created and cmods were invented) and again, I never just selected a mod and appointed him to a forum. I didnt have that ability. It had to be approved by someone else and the technical side of things done for me.


This circle of trust is just that, a circle. the admins trust the mods to know their forum, the mods trust the cmods to edit their pool of potential co-mods fairly and without bias and not to force a choice upon them that they are strongly opposed to. The cmod trusts the admins to check the suggested mods and to return with an honest decision. The admins trust the cmods and mods to accept that decision and also trust the mods and cmods to make a good selection. You dont get much more cicrular than that. The admins decision is limited first by the mods choices and then further by the cmods choice. Your description of the current situation is more of a line of trust, "the admins have to trust the mods", well ,the admins DO trust the mods and the mods have to trust that the admins will only act with the good of the site as their motivation. Then, the circle of trust is complete.

as for the shift of power in the modding process: it is still essentially one of Veto. that hasnt changed.The admins dont pick the pool of replacements. If a choice is turned down by the admins we dont just go and pick someone else randomly, we ask the cmod if there are any other suggestions he can make. it would be assumed that the cmod would pass this request along to the mods and discuss it with them. If no other suggestions are proposed then the admins would ask the moderating community as a whole for volunteers, who would still have to be acceptable to both mod and cmod, from a pool (mods) that have already met with admin approval.

My name is URL

LoLth wrote: »

Admins: "you are not going to be a mod because of your posting behaviour"
My Name is URL: "I know and I would change my posting behaviour if I became a mod"

Just to expand on this, yes, that is a reason I was given. It's also one which I don't feel is very fair considering I post almost exclusively in AH.

I was told that I don't take part in serious discussions, which is simply false.. I do take part in serious discussions when they arise.

Again, it boils down to Admins having a view of me which is based solely on how I act as a user in a forum on which light hearted banter is commonplace, if it was the Politics forum for example, I could understand why that would be a deciding factor.

And I'm sure that lots of people that have been made mod on this site have had to change their posting behavior...

Ponster

My name is URL wrote: »

And I'm sure that lots of people that have been made mod on this site have had to change their posting behavior...

I seriously doubt that.

arybvtcw0eolkf

BackfromtheNed wrote: »

I never thought being a mod was such a big deal,as far as I can see you end up setting yourself up for criticism and have every action picked over with a fine tooth comb and invariably will end up having people starting helpdesk threads and moaning about your decisions,particularly with AH.

In my humble you are better off without the headache URL.

This hits the nail bang on the head.

No decent bloke needs the hassle of Mod'ing AH.

My name is URL

Ponster wrote: »

I seriously doubt that.

Why so? Other Mods have worse records than I do, they've either had to change or not, if it's the latter then the reasons given to me are moot

What is it that Admins know about me that the Mods and the Cmod of the forum I post in don't?

Why is the "not taking part in serious discussions" reason applied to me but not others?

I'm not arguing about this so that the decision will be reversed, it's the principle of the thing

phasers

My name is URL wrote: »

Why is the "not taking part in serious discussions" reason applied to me but not others?

That's the worst reason I've ever heard, some of the best former AH mods rarely, if ever, took part in serious discussion.

It seems URL is being fobbed off imo.

Armin_Tamzarian

dr.bollocko wrote: »

I was a new mod who started in AH. Javaboy new mod started in AH. Terry new mod started in AH. Umm, lemme see, current mods..... Sharpshooter, TheZohan both new and started in AH. Frada was new before AH. AH has never ever been one to always look for old hands to mod the place because a mod is needed who understands the forum first...

TLDR
No but joking aside, doc's post pretty much summed up the points I was going to make.
I don't think that anyone can deny that this unfortunate episode has been a shambles.

I've known URL as a poster for quite some time and I think it's fair to say the following.

URL's a long standing AH poster who's contributed greatly to the forum, FACT.
It's clear that he has the common sense to treat a Mod post with the seriousness required, FACT.
Amongst AH posters URL was the popular choice to be made Mod, FACT.
The CMod and plenty of the AH Mods were happy for URL to be made Mod, FACT.

Now I manged to read the deleted post where URL copied the PM detailing the reasons he wasn't made Mod and IMO the arguments were weak at best.

As doc pointed out a minor ban and an infraction for some harmelss mischief making hardly warrants the vetoing of making URL a mod.
Similarly, as doc pointed out, any argument about preferring AH mod's to have previous modding experience is pretty baseless and doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

IMO a decision was made not to make URL a mod and it was a bad decision.
Trouble is that once decisions are made and a fuss is kicked up it's very hard to go back on such decisions.

Is it too late to overturn the decison and just let URL be a mod?
The public are very vocal on the subject and there have been some very strong comments and arguments made from certain mods, ex mods etc.
If he's a success everyone's happy, if not lesson learned and you can all say "told ya so".

It's not like we're selecting someone to go into space to destroy an asteroid that's on a collision course with Earth.
It's the appointment of someone to moderate an internet discussion forum FFS.
Life as we know it won't cease to exist if he messes up.

AlmightyCushion

LoLth wrote: »

@AlmightyCushion:
I'm sorry if you feel that your opinion is being ignored in these decisions. Of the requests you put in for mod placement, what percentage would you say are selected from outside the pool you suggest to the admins? It does happen that a cmods suggestion is not accepted, not often, but it does happen.

Well that isn't what has pissed me off about ob's post, it's the fact that he obviously hasn't bothered reading my posts on this before making his mind up. So, it's not that I feel my opinion is being ignored but that I know my posts are being ignore at the very least.

Also, my thoughts on the reason for him not being made a mod are clearly stated in the second paragraph of this post (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64095567&postcount=246) (I don't want to post it here in case the decision isn't meant for public consumption. Also, that post shows that the admins were working on wrong information when making the decision and when I point this out, nobody responds to my post. So the decision the admins made hasn't pissed me off anywhere near as much as my posts being ignored.

LoLth wrote: »

As for URL only being selected because of a popularity poll, I would guess that in this case the admins are talking to the many posts in this thread that quote the poll as a supporting reason for URL to have gotten the position.

No, it was mentioned in the mod request thread here (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64095106&postcount=245).
Also oscarbravo mentioned it earlier in this thread and also here (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=64326197#post64326197) where he says that selecting people using polls is a bad idea. This is despite me saying that url wasn't selected because of the poll or because he's popular here (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64095567&postcount=246) and also my other post after that.

AlmightyCushion

Armin_Tamzarian wrote: »

Similarly, as doc pointed out, any argument about preferring AH mod's to have previous modding experience is pretty baseless and doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

I didn't even know this was an issue, I wish I had. Going by memory, dr.b, javaboy, sharpshooter, frada, thezohan, dudess were all new to modding when taking on after hours. Rabies, hagar, mordeth and myself and the three new mods all had previous modding experience. I think terry was new to it as well but that was before my time.

oscarBravo

AC, I don't know how many times I'm going to have to repeat that I never said you proposed URL because he was popular. I'm making the point to all the posters in this thread that the fact of his popularity is not, nor should it be, the sole (or even the main) factor in our decision.

I'm typing on a phone in a moving car, so I'll contribute more to this topic later when I'm at a pc.

Bob_Harris

Thread Tools > Unsubscribe.

Overheal

stovelid wrote: »

From what I've seen, some of the most irreverent former posters take their duties seriously when they become mods.

This.

Im sure it wouldn't be the first time a poster had been modded while having a previous history of bans and infractions.

Or the first time a Cop had join the force with a previous conviction.

etc.

oscarBravo

My name is URL wrote: »

I'm not arguing about this so that the decision will be reversed, it's the principle of the thing

I'm not sure what that principle is. Are you arguing that admins shouldn't have the final say on who becomes a moderator? If so, who should?

My name is URL

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm not sure what that principle is. Are you arguing that admins shouldn't have the final say on who becomes a moderator? If so, who should?

I'm just saying that if a way of reasoning is going to be used to explain a decision regarding something like this, then that same reasoning should be applied to other cases, which it isn't.

My past history here is no worse than some other mods, and the "not taking part in serious discussions" part isn't applied to others, or even true in my case

I don't think either of those reasons are bad ones, but you can't call them fair when they seem to only be applied to this instance, while at the same time going against the fact that other Mods felt differently

LoLth

sorry just a quick note to reply to My Name is URL:

I had removed that section from my original post as, when reading back through the thread you had stated that you didnt want to go too deeply into it and I didnt want to overstep a mark.

However, since you have quoted a part I took out I think i should really comment on your reply:

You say that "not taking part in serious discussion" is the reason quoted. I would be suprised if that wasnt a paraphrasing of the reason. Being serious and grave is not a pre-requisite of being a mod.

You have stated that you rarely post outside of AH. Not never. And so those posts outside of AH would have to taken into account. behaving in one forum and messing in others doesnt make a user suitable to mod the one forum they behave and participate in. It might be ok for the mods because thats what they see, it might be ok for the cmod because he only looks at your posts in the category but the admins look at posting behaviour across the site.

You also agree that your posting behaviour would have to change if you were made a mod. What if your behaviour doesnt change? what if it gets worse? I think you would agree that the question asked then would be "why did the admins make this user a mod?".

My take on this would be tht the admins want to see the proposed change in posting behaviour *before* giving someone the responsibility of being a mod rather than have to clean up a potentially bigger mess afterwards.

Surely you can see this as a valid concern from the admins point of view?

I know you can promise that you would change to fit the role but there is no way to guarantee that. I personally would prefer to choose a mod that already fits.

Its not about having previous bans or infractions, though yes, they do play a part. To use overheal's cop analogy, a civilian with a record of shoplifting once wouldnt find much opposition while a civilian with a murder record or a recurring GBH offense would probably not be accepted. I fully agree with second chances and giving users the option to change direction if they want to so, for me, the real measure of whether or not a user is suitable for beign a mod is the recent history. How recent would depend on how serious or frequent their past infractions. I f the user has demonstrated a definite change in attitude and behaviour then this would make up for the infractions or warning received in the past.

@AlmightyCushion & Oscarbravo: thanks for clearing that up, I obviously had the wrong end of the stick. Possibly either yourself or OB have the wrong end in this as well. Deep breath, walk away and read again with a fresh perspective?

My name is URL

LoLth wrote: »

To use overheal's cop analogy, a civilian with a record of shoplifting once wouldnt find much opposition while a civilian with a murder record or a recurring GBH offense would probably not be accepted.

So I'm a murderer now? =p

I don't think my past behavior has been nearly as bad as what it's being made out to be. You're looking for ulterior motives that don't exist, imo

LoLth

My name is URL wrote: »

So I'm a murderer now? =p

I don't think my past behavior has been nearly as bad as what it's being made out to be. You're looking for ulterior motives that don't exist, imo

no, I was clarifying using Overheals analogy that while past behaviour is taken into account, and has to be!, its not as strict as one might assume.

I'm not looking for any ulterior motive nor am I assigning one. As I said, I dont know you or your posting style very well so I did not participate in the discussion of your being a mod or not. I'm just trying to explain the admin point of view behind the decision.

But how about my question:

can you not see the logic behind preferring to see the change being made before appointing a mod rather than gambling on it happening afterwards?

My name is URL

LoLth wrote: »

no, I was clarifying using Overheals analogy that while past behaviour is taken into account, and has to be!, its not as strict as one might assume.

I'm not looking for any ulterior motive nor am I assigning one. As I said, I dont know you or your posting style very well so I did not participate in the discussion of your being a mod or not. I'm just trying to explain the admin point of view behind the decision.

I know, sorry. I was referring more to the Admin team that made the decision.. I appreciate you taking the time to reply to this thread

But how about my question:

can you not see the logic behind preferring to see the change being made before appointing a mod rather than gambling on it happening afterwards?

Change into what though... is it that clear-cut? As I am now, the way I post in AH and what I 'get out of the site', are all things that Mods are aware of as well as Admins.. the Mods still believed I was a good choice however

So what change exactly is needed?

I've already agreed that I was a nuisance in the Parenting Forum some time back, that is the most severe infraction I've received during my time here, and even it was hardly a severe breach, it was a crap attempt at humor and I accepted the punishment

I'd be willing to gamble on the idea that everyone changes when they're made a Mod, they take the position seriously, but they don't stop being a contributor to the forum.

Earthhorse

Okay, so, how about this for a compromise.

We all know that URL has a few spots on his record. A blemished past, as it were. In Parenting, in PI, I think he said earlier or on another thread, and even in AH, the very forum he was nominated to mod.

I think he realises he has to change. What if he makes a list of everything bad he's done and, one by one, makes up for all his mistakes. Just to be a better poster (My name is URL).

WindSock

LoLth wrote: »

My take on this would be tht the admins want to see the proposed change in posting behaviour *before* giving someone the responsibility of being a mod rather than have to clean up a potentially bigger mess afterwards.

Surely you can see this as a valid concern from the admins point of view?

I too am at an ends trying to understand what sort of *change* is needed in URLs behaviour. He is hardly a serial muppet. If anything, I have had more muppet moments than he has.
In fact, URL is one of the few posters in AH that noticed one of my moments and pointed it out via a thread here in feedback. That is one of the reasons why he got my vote (even though I disagreed with him )

--amadeus--

@Lolth - sorry, unclear in my previous post, I wasn't suggesting that anyone other than Admins ever had (or ever should have) the technical ability to make someone a Mod.

The point I was scattergun attacking is that Admins need to do the modding and Mods do teh suggesting of names but there is this artificial need to involve a CMod to act as a go between rather than letting the mods and Admins talk to each other and that simply delays things.

IMO either give the CMods genuine power to do things (ie let them actually Mod people) or cut them out of the loop because it adds zero value atm

(yes feedforward is teh place we should discuss this)

RoundyMooney

Truth be told URL, would you really want to become mod in this manner anyway?

(Maybe you don't, and are just trying to highlight the way this was handled, and if so, fair enough).

Personally, I think you're better off enjoying the place as a poster, AH is a flippin' hard gig.

minidazzler

Earthhorse wrote: »

Okay, so, how about this for a compromise.

We all know that URL has a few spots on his record. A blemished past, as it were. In Parenting, in PI, I think he said earlier or on another thread, and even in AH, the very forum he was nominated to mod.

I think he realises he has to change. What if he makes a list of everything bad he's done and, one by one, makes up for all his mistakes. Just to be a better poster (My name is URL).

lol.

Technically the admins need no reason to not accept him, it's their site after all, but does anyone else feel like they seem to be clutching at straws? There still hasn't been one very good reason!

K-9

minidazzler wrote: »

lol.

Technically the admins need no reason to not accept him, it's their site after all, but does anyone else feel like they seem to be clutching at straws? There still hasn't been one very good reason!

I think it's a case of decision made, defend at all costs.

Well not quite that! 3 good mods have been appointed through the usual process and though they know URL would make a decent mod, defend at all costs.

Personally I think the problem is, the "Boards is becoming sooooo big, sub communities are developing" line.

Yes, we all know that. How come mod decisions aren't reflecting that?

ejmaztec

Seems to me that someone screwed up, thereby leaving a bad taste in the mouths of a few people, the whole fiasco revealing a not so friendly them and us situation.